Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Bug/Patch Discussion => Topic started by: Petek on May 31, 2013, 12:32:56 PM

Title: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Petek on May 31, 2013, 12:32:56 PM

Yitzi is looking at drone mechanics, so I thought to open a new thread about pacifism drones ("p-drones"). P-drones are created under certain conditions by military units when a faction has a low police rating. It turns out that certain base facilities, such as Rec Commons and Research Hospitals, don't quell p-drones. See this thread (http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/176293-Pacifism-Drones-and-Base-Facilities) on Apolyton for details. I think this is a bug, since drone-suppressing facilities should quell drones of all types. Any other opinions?

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Yitzi on May 31, 2013, 12:45:28 PM

Basically, the rule is that police and pacifism effects happen after facilities are put into effect.  So "facilities don't quell pacifism drones" and "police quell drones from the genejack factory" are two sides of the same coin.  It's also related to the fact that a size 4 base on transcend (i.e. 3 drones) with 2 pacifism drones won't be kept happy by just a rec commons and hologram theater (quells 4 drones); if pacifism drones came before facilities, total drones would be capped at 4, so the rec commons and hologram theater would do it.

I believe it was discussed at some point earlier, but I don't remember where.

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Seleuceia on June 01, 2013, 05:54:42 PM

From a gameplay standpoint, it certainly makes things more challenging...it's about the only penalty that that really can offset +2 economy from free market and just in general makes pacifism actually matter...I'd argue it's more a "feature" than a bug, but that's just my opinion...

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Green1 on June 01, 2013, 06:31:49 PM

Its just too bad you cannot nerve staple those hippies without getting sanctions.

But, seriously, I really do not see why the drones would be all pissed off if the unit that is out of my territory is exploring. Now, if those troops were on foreign soil, yeah. But out in the wilderness no mans land?

That's no feature, that is just annoying.

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Seleuceia on June 01, 2013, 06:34:34 PM

If it could be programmed that way it would be awesome...even more annoying is that bombers cause drones regardless of where they are...

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: gwillybj on June 01, 2013, 07:35:59 PM

Quote from: Seleuceia on June 01, 2013, 06:34:34 PM

If it could be programmed that way it would be awesome...even more annoying is that bombers cause drones regardless of where they are...

This thing about bomber drones has bothered me for a long time. I would think a warrior faction would not have this happen, a neutral (erratic) faction would have it sometimes, and a pacifist would have it all the time. Specifically:
a +1 mood (warriors) would never result in bomber drones.
a 0 mood (erratic) would result in bomber drones only if the bomber was outside the claimed territory, whether in enemy territory or in the neutral zone.
a -1 mood (pacifists) would be as it is currently, always bomber drones.

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: gwillybj on June 01, 2013, 07:38:06 PM

As for other p-drones, it makes sense to me as-is, a separate thing from the bomber drones.

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Yitzi on June 02, 2013, 03:33:11 AM

A thought: How does it sound to make a single alternate rule "drone control facilities are half effectiveness against "superdrones", but if there's any left over after non-pacifism drones they can affect pacifism drones"?

Quote from: Seleuceia on June 01, 2013, 05:54:42 PM

From a gameplay standpoint, it certainly makes things more challenging...it's about the only penalty that that really can offset +2 economy from free market and just in general makes pacifism actually matter...I'd argue it's more a "feature" than a bug, but that's just my opinion...

Well, a significant increase to ecodamage (as could happen with a different formula) would also be quite significant, especially for a high-production strategy.
Also, if drone control facilities affected them, they'd still have that downside (as you need drone control facilities for other things). 

Quote from: Green1 on June 01, 2013, 06:31:49 PM

Its just too bad you cannot nerve staple those hippies without getting sanctions.

Actually, with a low enough POLICE rating that pacifism is an issue, you can't nerve staple at all.  Punishment spheres still work, though.

Quote from: Seleuceia on June 01, 2013, 06:34:34 PM

If it could be programmed that way it would be awesome...even more annoying is that bombers cause drones regardless of where they are...

Both of them could be programmed that way, but it would be more work than other parts of the drone formula (as it's a different section), so I won't be doing it with the other drone formula options.  But when I start taking requests, it definitely can be on the list.  Though it might make sense to have a pact brother's territory also work like your own.

Quote

This thing about bomber drones has bothered me for a long time. I would think a warrior faction would not have this happen, a neutral (erratic) faction would have it sometimes, and a pacifist would have it all the time. Specifically:
a +1 mood (warriors) would never result in bomber drones.
a 0 mood (erratic) would result in bomber drones only if the bomber was outside the claimed territory, whether in enemy territory or in the neutral zone.
a -1 mood (pacifists) would be as it is currently, always bomber drones.

Having the AI rules affect player options is a big change conceptually and balance-wise.

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Seleuceia on June 02, 2013, 03:44:37 AM

@Yitzi

It's been a while since I've messed with it so I don't remember how it all works, but I suppose free market could have negative talent if pacifism was made as not as much of an issue...idk how folks around here feel about using the talent social engineering modifier though...

In any case, I have mixed feelings about your suggestion...sure, it is logical and straightforward, but it makes pacifism a lot easier to counter and I'm not so sure that is a good thing...

Ideally, I think it would be best to change when pacifism affects you rather than how....make it so that units in your territory (or a pact ally) can never induce pacifism (so, bombers and missiles no longer cause problems for defensive purposes), but leave how the pacifism drones are added as is.....

Title: Re: Pacifism Drone Bug?
Post by: Yitzi on June 02, 2013, 05:05:25 AM

Quote from: Seleuceia on June 02, 2013, 03:44:37 AM

In any case, I have mixed feelings about your suggestion...sure, it is logical and straightforward, but it makes pacifism a lot easier to counter and I'm not so sure that is a good thing...

Keep in mind, it can already be countered by psych, and for larger bases you're probably using psych substantially anyway.

I think once I've finished making sense of the drone rules, I'll post them and make a general thread for proposed changes and bug fixes.