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Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on May 28, 2013, 06:00:23 PM

Title: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 28, 2013, 06:00:23 PM
Quote
What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
By Ron Fournier | National Journal – 4 hrs ago...

 
George W. Bush in 2001 declared war on a tactic (terrorism), and empowered Big Brother to tap phones, launch drones, and indefinitely imprison people without due process.

Barack Obama in 2008 declared those Bush policies an overreach, and pledged to curb drone strikes, protect media freedoms, and close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. Instead, he escalated drone strikes and spied on the media. Gitmo is still open for its grim business.

These are facts. And yet, they are distorted by extreme and narrow-minded partisans, supporters of both Bush and Obama.

Conservatives contend that Bush single-handedly prevented a major terrorist strike after Sept. 11, 2001. They demagogue efforts to shift the pendulum back toward civil liberties. Last week, when Obama finally proposed a modest reassessment of the Bush doctrine, Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., claimed  the efforts "will be viewed by terrorists as a victory."

Liberals hypocritically gave Obama a pass for furthering the same policies they condemned in 2008. Criticism from the left was half-hearted and muted, compared with their Bush-era indignation. On Gitmo, left-wingers rightly blamed the GOP for blocking closure but didn't shame Obama into using his executive authority to shutter the pit.

Some progressives even tried to justify the Obama administration's efforts to criminalize the work of a Fox News reporter. Would they be so blase about a White House targeting MSNBC?

As Leonard Downie Jr. wrote in Sunday's Washington Post, "Hardly anything seems immune from constitutionally dangerous politicking in a polarized Washington."

But that's no excuse for missing the big picture, which is this: Bush and Obama shouldn't worry you nearly as much as the next president.

Or the one after that.

Think about it, liberals. What if there is a president in your lifetime who is more conservative than Bush? What if that commander in chief is empowered, as were Bush and Obama, by a national tragedy and a compliant Congress?

Your guy Obama has armed a president-turned-zealot with dangerous powers and precedents.

Think about it, conservatives. It may be maddening to listen to Obama tie himself into knots over the balance between liberty and freedom, but what if the next Democratic president sees no limit on a commander in chief's powers? What if he or she doesn't give a whit about offending the mainstream media?

The IRS targeting conservatives is a scandal, but there is no evidence that it was directed by the White House. What if the next Democratic president publicly declared his or her political opponents a direct threat to national security, and openly deployed federal agents against them?

Before your eyes roll out of your heads, it is not unthinkable that a future president could make Bush and Obama look downright libertarian. We live in an age of rapid connectivity and hyper-celebrity, forces that create, destroy, and often resurrect public figures within the lifespan of a cicada.  Does the name Justin Bieber ring a bell?

How about Sarah Palin? Our culture of celebrity coupled with the public's disaffection with Washington, could lead to the election of a true demagogue or reactionary. Put it this way: What if Huey Long had had access to the Internet? Or even Pat Buchanan? Don't be blinded by partisanship.

Left-wingers should be fighting the abuse of executive powers at home and abroad, rather than defending them.

Right-wingers should be demanding that Obama finally carry out the promises of his speech last week, rather than demonizing them.

What about the rest of us? How do we keep the country both safe and free? We don't cede the public square to these extremists.
http://news.yahoo.com/next-president-even-worse-053014797.html (http://news.yahoo.com/next-president-even-worse-053014797.html)
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Tarvok on May 29, 2013, 06:16:27 AM
Nothing terribly controversial here, not to anyone who is not devotedly partisan, anyway. As for me, I got exactly what I expected from Barak Obama. I was surrounded by kids who thought he represented a paradigm shift. Personally, I saw him as "just another politician", and when others in the peace movement were hyping him up as the greatest potential peacemaker of our time (I still don't know what, exactly, the Nobel committee was thinking), I was actually listening to his speeches... and recognized that his timeline ended the wars shortly AFTER his second term ended. Still, "just another politician" is, in my eyes, superior to a unilateralist, militarist, interventionist, if only marginally.

I *was* happy to see the First Black President elected, for a variety of reasons. First off, it dulls racial demagoguery a bit. But most importantly, I was happy for the old black people, who in their youth had dogs and fire hoses and worse turned on them just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got to see a black man elected president before they died.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Green1 on May 29, 2013, 06:27:18 PM
They are "all" just another politician.

The only folks who actually control things are those that have the resources. The politicians are public servants of these people. Black, white, Indian, or Progenitor... matters not. Do not let talk radio or the pageantry of TV sound bites lead you different.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Geo on May 29, 2013, 08:29:34 PM
The only folks who actually control things are those that have the resources. The politicians are public servants of these people. Black, white, Indian, or Progenitor... matters not. Do not let talk radio or the pageantry of TV sound bites lead you different.

Those 'public servants' get a huge say over the resources of aforementioned people contributing to the political system. ;)
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 06, 2017, 03:39:14 AM
Holy crap, is THIS thread ready for a bump.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 06, 2017, 09:15:21 PM
Just wait till President Pence,  recognizing that this is a Christian Nation, tries to go national with his Indiana reforms ( diverting AIDS Treatment funding to gay conversion therapy, for example) , and puts only righteous judges on the bench. Hallelujahs and Amens shall be uttered.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 06, 2017, 10:49:01 PM
-An obvious question.  Would a semi-competent person who worked within the accepted boundaries/rules of the system -but who had a truly evil agenda- do more harm or less than what we have now?
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 06, 2017, 11:47:12 PM
-An obvious question.  Would a semi-competent person who worked within the accepted boundaries/rules of the system -but who had a truly evil agenda- do more harm or less than what we have now?

Uh, I feared Pence would be worse. Now I'm not so sure.

Getting rid of the experienced people in the top of the state department and gutting it's budget, and being inept at finding and confirming replacements, or outright refusing to do so means that our non-military options for dealing with international incidents are vanishing.

We have a peculiar convergence of partisanship in media and public office. Then there's the Russian thing. I'm also concerned about changing norms, such as ethics, objective truth, and Constitutional interpretation.

We survived Nixon just fine, but I wonder about the lasting effects of the [Sleezebag] administration, including figurative and literal nuclear options. I like to believe that the system is self -correcting, that excess leads to reform and restoration. But when we let partisanship ...." [Sleezebag]" ethics, "[Sleezebag]" objective truth and "[Sleezebag]" Constitutional interpretation, I fear that tit for tat will replace restoring standards in one category or another.

SO- I'm starting to think that what we have now is worse in the long run.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2017, 12:37:05 AM
Good points.  One imagines that Pence would at least allow the train to run on time.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Geo on April 07, 2017, 04:22:43 PM
Why? There's still taxi's... or are these driven by illegal migrants?  ;modban
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2017, 08:21:43 PM
By comparison to the real estate huckster, who attacks sensible procedure five times before breakfast. ;nod
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Elok on April 16, 2017, 04:26:59 PM
The funny thing is, I assumed this was posted recently, and you were asking if the next president would be worse than [Sleezebag].  Honestly, we got something of a pass with this orangutan; I expected a fascist, more or less, but we got an indecisive buffoon who appears set to spend the next four years bouncing between contradictory advisors.  A bit rough on underpopulated chunks of third world real estate, and incapable of meeting any challenge, but not a direct threat to American liberty.  Hopefully he won't get Seattle nuked or send a flood of starving DPRK refugees into China and SK.

Now, who comes after [Sleezebag], that frightens me more.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Yitzi on April 27, 2017, 11:19:40 PM
Hallelujahs and Amens shall be uttered.

Mispronounced ones, no doubt.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Misanthrope on May 13, 2017, 03:32:50 AM
They are "all" just another politician.

So VERY True!  All human, all limited, all ready to spend other peoples' money and lives.



Hallelujahs and Amens shall be uttered.
Mispronounced ones, no doubt.

 ;rotflmao


Mr. President, we have prepared for you a speech we wish for you to read at a press conference, and DON'T Mispronounce any of the words this time!
-Shadow Government Puppet Show
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 20, 2017, 08:38:21 PM
I don't want this to be normal.

I'm thinking that Pence is up to his neck in this, too, so he will eventually go. How this all plays out remains to be seen. The order of the prosecutions, the possibilities of pardons, revoked security clearances, etc.

The G.O.P. has been a huge disappointment. I thought more of them would care about The Constitution. They can clean their own house, or wait for the voters to clean The House of Representatives in the mid-terms. Then we'll have President Pelosi in early 2019.

Well, that wouldn't be easy. The country is so badly Gerrymandered that the Democrats will need to be on their game.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 13, 2017, 05:28:46 AM
*Then again, on a day to day basis, the literal nuclear option seems more possible.

*Strange how deviancy gets defined down. Any other president I'd be outraged at the daily lies,  disingenuousness, hypocrisies and false statements. Now instead I'm thinking "Yeah, but is it illegal, unconstitutional or impeachable?"
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Geo on August 13, 2017, 09:58:58 AM
*Then again, on a day to day basis, the literal nuclear option seems more possible.

*Strange how deviancy gets defined down. Any other president I'd be outraged at the daily lies,  disingenuousness, hypocrisies and false statements. Now instead I'm thinking "Yeah, but is it illegal, unconstitutional or impeachable?"

It sounds like you're looking for a resolution of a problem.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 16, 2017, 05:06:24 PM
It's going to continue to get worse before it gets better.

We saw the real Donald [Sleezebag] again yesterday. Nothing illegal or impeachable, but he shot off some more toes. While few leaders  in his own party are denouncing him, nobody is defending him any more.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Geo on August 18, 2017, 08:07:36 AM
I wonder sometimes if he's like this John Boone character in Kim Stanley Robinson's "Red Mars" trilogy - going with the next tremendous idea he hears about.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Elok on August 18, 2017, 05:50:54 PM
So, when and if [Sleezebag] leaves the picture, who's next?  Who gets to put the pieces back together?
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 18, 2017, 09:22:45 PM
#1 In line is Vice President Mike Pence. The trouble is I'm pretty sure that the Mueller investigation will implicate him in at least 1) the cover-up of the Flynn-Russia connection. He was the head of the transition team after Christie was fired, so he was responsible for vetting. His lies abut it would indicate he knew what Flynn did was wrong. 2) Pence is also involved in the Comey firing.

On the other hand, Pence used to be a member of the House of Representatives before he became Governor of Indiana. The GOP members see him as a peer and a good guy. They'd be reluctant to start impeachment proceedings against him.

#2 In line is Speaker of The House Paul Ryan. There are hints that he won't come out of this Mueller investigation unscathed, but you can't expect him to impeach himself. But he doesn't want to be President. He ran for vice president with Romney. If he wanted the top job, he would have run in 2016. He's said that repeatedly.  So, potentially he could resign as Speaker, or from Congress.

#3 in line is Utah Senator Oren Hatch, who holds the title President Pro-Tem of the Senate. He's clean, but he's old. A place holder until the 2020 election.

#4 in line is the Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson.  I only mentioned him in case anybody was wondering.


A lot depends on timing and how and when [Sleezebag] leaves.  a) 2020 Election, b) Resignation c) removed by his cabinet in a 25th Amendment scenario, d) Impeachment?  Will the Mueller investigation release it's findings before the mid-term elections next year? Will the news be so bad that the Republicans lose their majority in spite of their gerrymandering achieved strangle-hold? If so, Pence and Ryan might be removed from the line of succession. Or Pence might have time to choose his replacement as Vice President.   The Democrats will not be so reluctant to impeach. The next President could possibly be Nancy Pelossi.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 18, 2017, 10:02:36 PM
Just wait till President Pence,  recognizing that this is a Christian Nation, tries to go national with his Indiana reforms ( diverting AIDS Treatment funding to gay conversion therapy, for example) , and puts only righteous judges on the bench. Hallelujahs and Amens shall be uttered.

If This Goes On...
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 18, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
-An obvious question.  Would a semi-competent person who worked within the accepted boundaries/rules of the system -but who had a truly evil agenda- do more harm or less than what we have now?

Sounds like the Plot to the first three Star Wars films...
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 18, 2017, 10:08:44 PM
-An obvious question.  Would a semi-competent person who worked within the accepted boundaries/rules of the system -but who had a truly evil agenda- do more harm or less than what we have now?

Uh, I feared Pence would be worse. Now I'm not so sure.

Getting rid of the experienced people in the top of the state department and gutting it's budget, and being inept at finding and confirming replacements, or outright refusing to do so means that our non-military options for dealing with international incidents are vanishing.

We have a peculiar convergence of partisanship in media and public office. Then there's the Russian thing. I'm also concerned about changing norms, such as ethics, objective truth, and Constitutional interpretation.

We survived Nixon just fine, but I wonder about the lasting effects of the [Sleezebag] administration, including figurative and literal nuclear options. I like to believe that the system is self -correcting, that excess leads to reform and restoration. But when we let partisanship ...." [Sleezebag]" ethics, "[Sleezebag]" objective truth and "[Sleezebag]" Constitutional interpretation, I fear that tit for tat will replace restoring standards in one category or another.

SO- I'm starting to think that what we have now is worse in the long run.

But the "Commander-in-Tweet" can't be wrong....  can he...  :rolleyes:

Over the last few weeks, I have been shuddering as to the next crap to come from the "Idiot-in-Chief"...
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 18, 2017, 10:17:10 PM
#1 In line is Vice President Mike Pence. The trouble is I'm pretty sure that the Mueller investigation will implicate him in at least 1) the cover-up of the Flynn-Russia connection. He was the head of the transition team after Christie was fired, so he was responsible for vetting. His lies abut it would indicate he knew what Flynn did was wrong. 2) Pence is also involved in the Comey firing.

On the other hand, Pence used to be a member of the House of Representatives before he became Governor of Indiana. The GOP members see him as a peer and a good guy. They'd be reluctant to start impeachment proceedings against him.

#2 In line is Speaker of The House Paul Ryan. There are hints that he won't come out of this Mueller investigation unscathed, but you can't expect him to impeach himself. But he doesn't want to be President. He ran for vice president with Romney. If he wanted the top job, he would have run in 2016. He's said that repeatedly.  So, potentially he could resign as Speaker, or from Congress.

#3 in line is Utah Senator Oren Hatch, who holds the title President Pro-Tem of the Senate. He's clean, but he's old. A place holder until the 2020 election.

#4 in line is the Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson.  I only mentioned him in case anybody was wondering.


A lot depends on timing and how and when [Sleezebag] leaves.  a) 2020 Election, b) Resignation c) removed by his cabinet in a 25th Amendment scenario, d) Impeachment?  Will the Mueller investigation release it's findings before the mid-term elections next year? Will the news be so bad that the Republicans lose their majority in spite of their gerrymandering achieved strangle-hold? If so, Pence and Ryan might be removed from the line of succession. Or Pence might have time to choose his replacement as Vice President.   The Democrats will not be so reluctant to impeach. The next President could possibly be Nancy Pelossi.

Thing is, if the Reps couldn't come together enough to repeal and replace, then I really don't see them coming together to Impeach, even with the Dem's help...
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 18, 2017, 10:19:51 PM
c) removed by his cabinet in a 25th Amendment scenario

I don't think they can use the fact that he is a colossal idiot as a reason....
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Geo on August 18, 2017, 11:34:20 PM
But the "Commander-in-Tweet" can't be wrong....  can he...  :rolleyes:

Over the last few weeks, I have been shuddering as to the next crap to come from the "Idiot-in-Chief"...

Why not going for "Idiot-in-Tweet" directly? ;)
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 19, 2017, 01:11:52 AM


Thing is, if the Reps couldn't come together enough to repeal and replace, then I really don't see them coming together to Impeach, even with the Dem's help...

I agree, that's a long shot. 80% of Americans strongly disapprove of white supremacists, but only about 20 Congressional Republicans ( including the Senate ) in total could bring themselves to  denounce them/ criticize the President after [Sleezebag] reversed himself on Monday. 

It's more likely he'll rage quit, or have a cardiovascular episode from the stress. I'm sure he doesn't want to be the first and only president removed from office. Just look at the way he disbanded his manufacturing advisory board this week and his arts council today. He has a" you can't fire me , I quit!" attitude. Just like he filed for bankruptcies.

------------
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 19, 2017, 01:27:56 AM
But the "Commander-in-Tweet" can't be wrong....  can he...  :rolleyes:

Over the last few weeks, I have been shuddering as to the next crap to come from the "Idiot-in-Chief"...

Why not going for "Idiot-in-Tweet" directly? ;)

You still have to have SOME respect for the office he holds, even though he doesn't deserve to be in it....
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 19, 2017, 01:29:41 AM


Thing is, if the Reps couldn't come together enough to repeal and replace, then I really don't see them coming together to Impeach, even with the Dem's help...

I agree, that's a long shot. 80% of Americans strongly disapprove of white supremacists, but only about 20 Congressional Republicans ( including the Senate ) in total could bring themselves to  denounce them/ criticize the President after [Sleezebag] reversed himself on Monday. 

It's more likely he'll rage quit, or have a cardiovascular episode from the stress. I'm sure he doesn't want to be the first and only president removed from office. Just look at the way he disbanded his manufacturing advisory board this week and his arts council today. He has a" you can't fire me , I quit!" attitude. Just like he filed for bankruptcies.

------------

but when....  oh when will that come about???   anyone want to start a pool???
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 19, 2017, 01:44:12 AM
c) removed by his cabinet in a 25th Amendment scenario

I don't think they can use the fact that he is a colossal idiot as a reason....

No, they would have to go the crazy route, like if he tries to start a nuclear war. Anything less than that, a couple people have to become vertebrates. But the case for crazy is not out of reach all of the time.

A pool is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on August 19, 2017, 03:36:38 AM
Problem is that with the BS with North Korea, we might be in one soon...
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Elok on August 19, 2017, 06:15:08 AM
I didn't mean "who's next" literally, necessarily.  I meant that, quite frankly, I don't see anybody qualified to clean up the mess.  [Sleezebag] did not cause Trumpism, only exploited it to get to power only to find out he didn't know how to do anything useful with it.  This is a fairly dysfunctional country, and getting worse.  The effects are going to linger.  Getting rid of [Sleezebag] will only be the beginning, and it might make it harder initially, to get rid of this impotent scapegoat buffoon and trust somebody with power.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 19, 2017, 10:52:42 PM
I think it will be pretty hard to achieve much without an objective truth or reality.

When I was a kid the wire services Associated Press and United Press International fed the news to the local papers and the broadcast networks via teletype machine.

Now, with a multitude of sources, and the internet you can find whatever you want to hear. FOX has commentators talking about how [Sleezebag] defeated ISIS. NBC told me that ISIS has practically captured a city in the Philippines and US special forces and air power are providing support to the government. FOX also tells me that [Sleezebag] has popular support. I thought he lost the popular vote in the election, and has been fading in popularity ever since.

Likewise with [Sleezebag] relying on his twitter feed and FOX, rather than the Daily briefing that has input from the various US intelligence agencies, it's easy for things to turn into an echo chamber.

The trouble is that [Sleezebag] isn't the only one subject to that kind of peril. Anybody can fall into the trap of social media/ circle of friends/ internet news. Or fall into the everybody I know voted for X trap.

I think the reality bubbles have to break before we can recover functionality. No, I don't know how to do it. I cringe at the thought of state television.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Geo on August 20, 2017, 10:01:41 AM
I cringe at the thought of state television.

[Sleezebag] TV?  ;)
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 20, 2017, 08:01:02 PM
I cringe at the thought of state television.

[Sleezebag] TV?  ;)

Yes! I'm sure it will be as honest and factual as he is.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 23, 2017, 05:25:59 AM
As for the pool idea, I'll take May of 2018.
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on September 02, 2017, 07:08:18 PM
Pool: Not Before the next Congress and then depending on the midterm election results...
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: E_T on September 02, 2017, 07:09:27 PM
Here is the real question:  Will he get Nominated for the 2020 term?
Title: Re: What If the Next President Is Even Worse?
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 02, 2017, 08:14:16 PM
I think by then he'll be sick of the criticism to praise ratio, and announce retirement.  Kinda like LBJ in '68.

But I'm expecting prosecutions and resignations before that.
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