Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Destination: Alpha Centauri => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on May 07, 2013, 07:03:19 pm

Title: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 07, 2013, 07:03:19 pm
Quote
It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
By Clara Moskowitz | SPACE.com – 1 hr 45 mins ago...

(http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/QSmECKlWHA2ubDC_ZIF21w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zMjM7cT03OTt3PTU3NQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/SPACE.com/It%27s_Time_to_Get_Serious-c1ff6d5e5b23d4138d3e0133e8ed76e7)
How soon before humans trek across the landscape of Mars? Artist's concept depicts crewmembers involved in sample analysis on Mars.

 
WASHINGTON — If NASA is to land humans on Mars by the 2030s, as President Barack Obama has directed, there's not much time to settle on a plan and develop the technologies required, agency officials said Monday (May 6).

In the 1960s, America seized an opportunity to go to the moon, and succeeded. A second opportunity for a leap forward in space is upon us now, said NASA chief Charles Bolden at the Humans 2 Mars Summit here at George Washington University.

"Interest in sending humans to Mars I think has never been higher," Bolden said. "We now stand on the precipice of a second opportunity to press forward to what I think is man's destiny — to step onto another planet."

Yet the road to Mars is long and challenging, and the difficulties are scientific, technological, political and economic, experts said.


Of launches and landings

Sending astronauts to the Red Planet will likely require at least three missions: one to launch the crew and the vehicle that will take them to Mars, one to launch the habitat humans will live on at the planet's surface, and one to launch the vehicle that will lift off from Mars to take the crew home, said Doug Cooke, a former NASA associate administrator for the Exploration Systems Mission Directorate who now heads a space consulting firm.

Overall, about 200 to 400 metric tons of equipment will have to be launched from Earth's surface for the project — a mass roughly equivalent to that of the International Space Station. And about 40 metric tons of that mass will have to be delivered to the surface of Mars at one time. So far, NASA has been able to land only 1 metric ton at a time — a feat recently accomplished in nail-biting fashion when the agency landed the Curiosity rover last summer.

While this phase, called Mars entry, descent and landing, will be one of the most challenging elements of the mission, at least as difficult is the return, when the astronauts will have to lift off from the surface of Mars and travel home.

"To me this is one of the biggest challenges," said Mike Raftery, director of space station utilization and exploration at Boeing, the primary contractor for NASA's heavy-lift rocket being developed to go to Mars. "We have to essentially land a launch pad on the surface that's then ready to launch the crew back to Earth."


Living off the land

In addition to the launch system, Mars crews will have to bring their own life-support systems, medicine, food, communications systems and navigation equipment. Yet the space travelers won't be able to pack everything they'll need. Instead, they will have to take advantage of some of the resources on Mars, such as water and oxygen for breathing, drinking and other needs. However, the technologies needed to extract and use such resources don't yet exist.

"We're going to have to rely on being able to live off the land," said James Reuther of NASA's Office of the Chief Technologist. "Those will require significant technology investments in order to actually bring that about."

Engineers must also develop a means of shielding astronauts from the dangerous radiation in space, both during the journey to the Red Planet and on the Martian surface, which lacks a strong enough atmosphere to protect from these damaging particles.

And to adequately plan for a human landing, additional precursor missions may also be necessary.

"It's very likely that we'll send some kind of lander or rover to the site we want to send people to first, to drill a couple meters down to tell us if we have fresh water," said John Grunsfeld, associate administrator for NASA's science mission directorate. Such a spacecraft could also serve as a beacon to guide the crewed lander down to the chosen spot on Mars.

Despite the complexity of all these challenges, NASA has a limited amount of time to plan its mission if it wants humans to arrive in the 2030s.


Ticking clock

By 2020, engineers must choose an architecture for the mission, including what type of propulsion to use to get to Mars, and how many launches are required, said Sam Scimemi, NASA's International Space Station director. It must also establish partnerships with any other nations it hopes to team with for the journey. By 2025, the design for all the major vehicles and technologies must be completed and frozen.

"That's pencils down," Scimemi said. "We don't have a lot of time. If we're going to get there we have to have a realistic approach from a budget, political and cultural standpoint."

Still, many NASA and industry experts expressed confidence it can be done.

"In the coming days we have the opportunity to write history, to determine the future of humankind," said Artemis Westenberg, president of Explore Mars Inc., the nonprofit space advocacy group that organized the conference. "We of Explore Mars give you this platform of this three-day summit. Now all you have to do is tell each other and the world the how" of getting to Mars.

You can watch the Humans 2 Mars Summit live on SPACE.com through May 8.
http://news.yahoo.com/time-serious-going-mars-nasa-says-161440052.html (http://news.yahoo.com/time-serious-going-mars-nasa-says-161440052.html)
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Geo on May 07, 2013, 09:38:21 pm
Heh. They're talking about a mission which should take place in the early 2030ties, while private initiatives are busy for a 2016 fly-by of Mars, or one-way colonisation in the early 2020ties.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 07, 2013, 10:54:51 pm
And you believe those are actually gonna happen?
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Geo on May 08, 2013, 05:06:21 pm
The 2016 flyby, no way. 2023 maybe, but unlikely.
That being said, I don't see a NASA lander on Mars happening either. ;)
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: testdummy653 on May 08, 2013, 05:32:53 pm
I like the idea of private companies working towards Mars.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 08, 2013, 07:32:03 pm
The 2016 flyby, no way. 2023 maybe, but unlikely.
That being said, I don't see a NASA lander on Mars happening either. ;)

The flyby and one way are doable with current technologies, really.  It's more a matter of funding. 

Round trip is presently all but unfathomable. 
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 08, 2013, 09:50:18 pm
Any money to be made is too far in the future and too much overhead in the incremental progress for private industry, too.  If anything was made to be an expensive government boondoggle, this is it.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2013, 03:17:32 pm
I don't think the Govt could afford it either. 

We really need a global unification before we can seriously consider these kinds of things.  Which basically means, not happening. 
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Geo on May 09, 2013, 03:55:34 pm
The 2016 flyby, no way. 2023 maybe, but unlikely.
That being said, I don't see a NASA lander on Mars happening either. ;)

The flyby and one way are doable with current technologies, really.  It's more a matter of funding. 

Round trip is presently all but unfathomable.

Doable, yes. But I did include the matter of funding to my opinion.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2013, 04:31:35 pm
I think the flyby is a lot more likely to be funded than a one way trip (though the timing is questionably quick).  Their estimate of THAT particular cost just doesn't add up, IMO. 
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: testdummy653 on May 09, 2013, 07:07:08 pm
I don't think the Govt could afford it either. 

We really need a global unification before we can seriously consider these kinds of things.  Which basically means, not happening.

The only thing this mission needs is profitability, and it will happen. Going to Mars for science's sake will never happen.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2013, 07:26:58 pm
Profitability is never happening at the current tech level.  I don't care if they find Mars is made of gold and diamonds, it's just not going to be profitable at the current costs.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: testdummy653 on May 09, 2013, 07:33:55 pm
Profitability is never happening at the current tech level.  I don't care if they find Mars is made of gold and diamonds, it's just not going to be profitable at the current costs.

I agree.  Hopefully, Mars is made out of something useful like rare earth metals....

We should really be pushing asteroid mining.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 09, 2013, 07:37:58 pm
Research pays for itself - Heinlein Principle.  If absolutely no other science came out of a Mars expedition, there would still be enormous engineering advances; you know, like the stuff NASA discovered 50 years ago that powers your computer.

If there is a will to make it happen, it will happen and it will pay.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: testdummy653 on May 09, 2013, 07:45:06 pm
Research pays for itself - Heinlein Principle.  If absolutely no other science came out of a Mars expedition, there would still be enormous engineering advances; you know, like the stuff NASA discovered 50 years ago that powers your computer.

If there is a will to make it happen, it will happen and it will pay.

Tell that to the investors... They will want to see the short-term profitability. 
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 09, 2013, 07:47:03 pm
That is why I don't believe in privatizing the space program.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2013, 08:28:06 pm
Again with the asteroid mining. 

It's no more profitable than Mars will be. 

The only way it becomes profitable is if we manufature with the ore in space, you save tons of money.  Problem is, we have no concept of even how to do that yet.  Capture/return is a pipe dream. 

Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: testdummy653 on May 09, 2013, 08:33:13 pm
Again with the asteroid mining. 

It's no more profitable than Mars will be. 

The only way it becomes profitable is if we manufature with the ore in space, you save tons of money.  Capture/return is a pipe dream.

I think you under estimate the value of metals and mining.
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2013, 09:00:25 pm
Ore is NOT THAT VALUABLE. 


Nasa's mission to capture an asteroid is listed as 2.6 BILLION to bring in 500 tons of asteroid to ORBIT, not to surface.  And it's a piss poor target they are going after, too, mostly iron. 

Iron ore currently sells for $139 per ton.  We'd need to strike a good amount of the platinum spectrum metals to even approach paying for the mission to orbit, and that's not even calculating the unknown cost of safe return to surface. 

Our first target needs to be water/ice. 

A water/ice rich asteroid brought into orbit to PROCESS WATER IN SPACE would be revolutionary.  Water could be used for fuel, potentially even renewable fuel by capture/recycling in various machinery.  Water rich asteroids tend to also contain other combustibles that could potentially enable refuelling.  The water alone would cut the need for station resupplies and eventually pay for itself it it was used no other way. 
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Geo on May 09, 2013, 09:42:43 pm
In short, a small COMET is what some space mission needs to bring into Earth orbit.  ;)
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2013, 10:35:09 pm
Technical differences, but yeah, and point being whatever they bring STAYS IN ORBIT.  Bringing back to surface is currently not cost effective. 

If they were to mine ore in space and somehow fabricate in space, it's FAR more efficient than attempting to launch items.  I could see framework for a really big station/ship being fabricated in orbit and the fuel/water as well.  That's a lot of weight you don't need to launch.  I just don't know how you do the fabrication at present. 
Title: Re: It's Time to Get Serious About Going to Mars, NASA Says
Post by: Geo on May 10, 2013, 03:26:39 pm
I'd say also unnecessary, at least until there's a space elevator/needle/noodle/fountain in operation.
Once that is in operation, you almost need to have downward cargo to keep the balance of the whole structure.
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