Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Bug/Patch Discussion => Topic started by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 03:39:20 AM

Title: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 03:39:20 AM

In the ecodamage formula, it adds 5 extra "virtual minerals" for each major atrocity you have committed.  This means exactly what it says*: Repeated use of minor atrocities is considered a major atrocity for diplomacy and therefore has the same effect here, whereas using a Planet Buster with the U.N. Charter revoked is not an atrocity and has no effect on ecodamage.

So the question is: Is this a bug per se, or just something that doesn't really make sense but is a part of the game and should be left in (at least optionally)?




though there's an undocumented addition that tectonic missile use also counts despite not being an atrocity

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 04:03:38 AM

It certainly doesn't make sense that Planet goes along with the council.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 12:42:16 PM

Definitely; the question is if it's a bug (and thus can be changed for everyone), or just a nonsensical feature that people should be able to change or keep the same as they wish.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 03:20:20 PM

Nonsensical feature, I'd guess.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 05:51:52 PM

I wouldn't say a Planet Buster would be viewed any differently by Planet than any of the other atrocities (though it's "major", whereas others are "minor").  In the theme of the game, a lot is mentioned about the excesses of humans in war and Planet's negative thoughts on us.

Ideally there would be a "Council Atrocity" count and a "Planet Atrocity" count.  "Council Atrocities" would not get incremented with the UN Charter repealed, and "Planet Atrocities" would always be incremented.  "Council Atrocities" would determine other factions aggressiveness to you, and "Planet Atrocities" would influence the eco damage portion.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 05:56:16 PM

Quote from: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 05:51:52 PM

I wouldn't say a Planet Buster would be viewed any differently by Planet than any of the other atrocities (though it's "major", whereas others are "minor").  In the theme of the game, a lot is mentioned about the excesses of humans in war and Planet's negative thoughts on us.

Ideally there would be a "Council Atrocity" count and a "Planet Atrocity" count.  "Council Atrocities" would not get incremented with the UN Charter repealed, and "Planet Atrocities" would always be incremented.  "Council Atrocities" would determine other factions aggressiveness to you, and "Planet Atrocities" would influence the eco damage portion.

So even something like the first incident of nerve stapling would have the same effect on ecodamage as a planet buster does?

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 06:00:30 PM

Well that's a side issue, the 'values' on various atrocities.  You could make a case that it should be significant.  It's like declaring "Vendetta" on Planet.

Personally I argue for relative values something like:
First atrocity - 10
Planet Buster - 10 * reactor size
Nerve Staple - 1 per use
Nerve Gas - 1 per use

And have the counter go down slow over time.  Planet could be somewhat forgiving for our mistakes.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 06:13:17 PM

Planet would hardly care about nerve stapling citizens.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 06:41:29 PM

I think Planet would.  Nerve stapling and punishment spheres are depicted as the worst form of torture.  Planet and its lifeforms are savage but respect a certain kind of honor.  This is why it's Skye, the pacifist, that talks to Planet throughout the game.  I think there's also some SP video (Voice of Planet?) that sends Planet all of our good and bad history, including the excesses of war.  Planet then becomes a lot more aggressive against humanity until we atone with the "Ascent to Transcendence".  I guess it's how you interpret it all though. 

The difference I see is that Nerve Staple is done on innocent citizens simply as a means of control, and not as part of war.  But yes, it'd be a lot less significant than Planet Buster.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 07:10:49 PM

You're thinking in terms of late-game, when Planet has reached an increasingly sophisticated understanding of the newcomers from Earth.  For most of the game, it simply wouldn't understand that nerve stapling is bad, let alone that it's going on.  Now, a planet buster detonation would HURT, no matter when; it's even possible that nerve-gassing enemies pollutes, but nerve stapling?  Not so much.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 07:43:10 PM

Quote from: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 06:00:30 PM

Well that's a side issue, the 'values' on various atrocities.  You could make a case that it should be significant.  It's like declaring "Vendetta" on Planet.

Personally I argue for relative values something like:
First atrocity - 10
Planet Buster - 10 * reactor size
Nerve Staple - 1 per use
Nerve Gas - 1 per use

And have the counter go down slow over time.  Planet could be somewhat forgiving for our mistakes.

That sort of thing is way too much to code at this stage.  The question is whether using nerve stapling/nerve gas/gene warfare often enough to get everyone to declare vendetta should count as a Planet Buster (and then as another one for every incident after that.)

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 07:54:46 PM

Yes.  Well ideally nerve stapling might become an atrocity after an appropriate point in the game.  I would say when Xenoempathy Dome is constructed.  Similarily for destroying your own bases, genetic warfare, and probably even nerve gas.  Nerve gas probably wouldn't pollute (and therefore be an early atrocity either) I'd argue, where it doesn't work on native life forms.

But yea, it'd be way too much to code how it 'should be' in theme with the game.  Can you clarify the way the game counts minor/major atrocities with an with the charter?  Is there two variables "minor" and "major", and a certain number of "minors" become a "major"?

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 10:10:39 PM

Quote from: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 07:54:46 PM

Yes.  Well ideally nerve stapling might become an atrocity after an appropriate point in the game.  I would say when Xenoempathy Dome is constructed.  Similarily for destroying your own bases, genetic warfare, and probably even nerve gas.  Nerve gas probably wouldn't pollute (and therefore be an early atrocity either) I'd argue, where it doesn't work on native life forms.

But yea, it'd be way too much to code how it 'should be' in theme with the game.  Can you clarify the way the game counts minor/major atrocities with an with the charter?  Is there two variables "minor" and "major", and a certain number of "minors" become a "major"?

Essentially yes.  There's two variables, and after a certain number of minor atrocities they start counting as major atrocities as well.  Planet busters are always considered major atrocities.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Geo on April 19, 2013, 09:06:34 PM

Quote from: Nexii on April 18, 2013, 07:54:46 PM

Nerve gas probably wouldn't pollute (and therefore be an early atrocity either) I'd argue, where it doesn't work on native life forms.

In this light, Planet should consider the use of fungicide tanks on Formers to be an atrocity.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Nexii on April 19, 2013, 09:13:59 PM

Lol well that has always bugged me.  You can remove all the Fungus on the map and Planet doesn't seem to care (and is still 'alive').  You know, the game might be more interesting if removing fungus had more downside.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 19, 2013, 09:17:24 PM

Hey, that's right - fungus removal ought to cheese Planet off a lot, unlike breaking the UN atrocity prohibitions.

Title: Re: Is the ecodamage treatment of atrocities/Planet Busters a bug?
Post by: Lefty Scaevola on July 19, 2013, 07:58:13 PM

The Planet Mind is very alien, and partly unknowable, what seems logical to us might not make much differnece to it.
Not a bug.