Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Bug/Patch Discussion => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on April 15, 2013, 06:12:27 AM

Title: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 15, 2013, 06:12:27 AM
Say you're like me, and don't like water squares and do like terraforming -

Sometimes when the land lays right, you can raise land and get rid of that water a few squares inside the border of another faction without breaking treaties or triggering vendetta.


-You have to not complete a raising until the highest raising is done - with luck, nothing completes on the next turn before you can click on the outermost pending raising - or just behind, and "w" a unit to make sure it completes in the right order, from furthest to closest.

You have three levels to raise land that started under 1,000ft...

Obviously, this doesn't work when you've been doing a lot of raising in your own territory and the terrain slopes at maximum down towards the border.

...

For fun, an illustration in pictures - imagine I want to ruin one of the Spartans' jungle squares.  Watch the info on each square's altitude, which is indicated on the screen with a red arrow:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=556)

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=558)

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=559)

Now to raise the outermost square a level:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=560)

And again:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=561)

And again:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=562)

Note that the square went full rocky on the last raise - this happens sometimes, apparently randomly. 

Here's the new altitude of the square next in:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=563)

And the square closest to the border:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=564)

So it's time to go to the next turn.  I was indeed able to make it go highest to lowest.  Blue arrows indicate the newly-rocky highest square, now vacated:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=565)

And the final result, with altitude-sabotaged square also pointed out:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=557)



This was a crap example to make the screenies from, because there was a higher-altitude square in the way of more damage being done.  It was just the only game save I had that would do to show it at all - all the others on hand are turn one or after that slopes sharply right up to the border problem.  This was all I could supply today.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: gwillybj on April 15, 2013, 04:38:41 PM
Terraforming to divert a river into my territory is one of my favorites. It started a lively discussion - something about Water Rights.
I suppose in SP it might be considered exploitive, because the AI doesn't complain. I never feel guilty about it, though, because I've had them do it to me. They were likely raising the land for some other reason, but they took my river just the same.
In MP, I'd say go ahead if the target is a human player, since they will see the act in progress and react.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 15, 2013, 04:40:51 PM
An interesting perspective - an exploit that's actually MORE ethical to use on a human.  You make sense.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Nexii on April 16, 2013, 05:55:09 AM
I've noted you can also lose sea resource bonus squares from raising.  Maybe this is already known.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2013, 05:53:23 PM
I knew about it. 

Patchers?
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: gwillybj on April 17, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
The sea bonus is lost, but it becomes a Unity pod on the land raised. This pod acts like any other: it might show up a monolith, a worm, a resource bonus, or whatever else is possible.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
That sounds right.

I keep forgetting that it does that, and was disappointed when I was raising land as recently as a few weeks ago - and I've been playing since the year SMAC came out.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 17, 2013, 11:26:36 PM
If you provide a link of a game where the bonus-loss happens, it may be possible for someone to take a look at it at some point.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 02:40:33 AM
A base on land that's turned rocky after it was founded:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=570)
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 02:50:08 AM
An image isn't really that useful; what's needed for investigation is a savegame where you can do something to cause it to happen.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 03:26:51 AM
I don't know when it happened, but it was caused by the square being raised.  As I mentioned already upthread, that happens sometimes to rolling terrain when you raise it - something on the order of 1/10th chance, as a wild guess.  Likewise with flat squares going rocky.  It's the only way I know of to turn flat terrain rocky.

The converse can also happen with lowering terrain.

If you really want to try it, here's the save attached right after I discovered it, though I'd been raising squares in the vicinity making echelon farms for a while and am not sure when it happened - but the base in question is centered and has 8-9 formers sleeping inside, as do all the surrounding bases.  If you lower the adjacent squares -and lower and raise and lower again- you ought to be able to turn it back rolling again before you run out of formers.

-Also, here's the player faction, in case you need it: http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/MyWorms.zip (http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/MyWorms.zip)
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 03:35:31 AM
I'm not really up to doing that sort of thing at the moment, but perhaps when I get to it.  (Though if you can replicate it, that will make it easier to figure out what's going on and thus likely to happen sooner.)
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 04:17:56 AM
Okay, lowering adjacent land twice did the trick.  Dunno what good this save is, but here.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 12:41:30 PM
I tried using the first save and lowering adjacent land twice, and it didn't change.  Maybe I lowered the wrong squares.  Can you repeat it, but provide a save from just before the last lowering (i.e. the last former is in the proper square and just needs to "lower" command to change the rockiness.)?
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 03:19:12 PM
Okay - I'll do that later when I'm caught up and playing.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 05:53:55 PM
Okay, this is getting consistent results in v2.0.  Press "[" and have a party.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 06:01:12 PM
Er...the game you just uploaded has no formers active.  You sure you didn't upload the first game by mistake?
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 06:03:45 PM
Crap.  I must've saved it in the wrong folder.  Cost me a few hours of last night's game, too.  Hold on.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2013, 06:21:06 PM
Odd - it seems that the game defaults to the last folder it saved in, not the folder it just loaded from.  I didn't do anything wrong except not look around to see which copy it was saving in - and there go a bunch of turns.

I finally got a lowering that didn't turn the base square rolling, but it worked on the next try.  It's possible you'll need to reload - but it's worked seven out of eight times.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 18, 2013, 08:43:16 PM
Well, this is a hard one, as switching to the debugger seems to make it not happen  (I may do more testing, though).  But in case Scient wants to have a try, here's what I've figured out:

The square information is stored at position 2CXsquare# plus the DWORD at 94A30C.  (This is quite a bit beyond the data segment used for most things, by the way.)  Square# here is determined by taking the second coordinate, multiplying by the DWORD at 68FAF0 (I presume that's map size), and adding half the first coordinate.  The rockiness is found in the 6th byte of the square, at bits 40 and 80.  (Equivalently, it's at DWORD square-start+8, at the 14th and 15th bits of the field.)

Note that the DWORD at 94A30C can (and generally will) change between different loads of the same game.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 21, 2013, 06:52:02 PM
Quote from: Yitzi on April 17, 2013, 11:26:36 PM
If you provide a link of a game where the bonus-loss happens, it may be possible for someone to take a look at it at some point.

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=576)

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=575)

Open the attached save and "]" the active former; you'll see.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 21, 2013, 08:15:03 PM
The earlier game you provided was enough; the problem now is just that the bug is a tough one, and I've got higher priorities at the moment.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 21, 2013, 09:03:30 PM
This is about sea bonuses becoming pods when raised to land - and I dunno if either is a bug.  Just pointing out oddities.

Quote from: Nexii on April 16, 2013, 05:55:09 AM
I've noted you can also lose sea resource bonus squares from raising.  Maybe this is already known.
Quote from: BUncle on April 17, 2013, 05:53:23 PM
I knew about it. 

Patchers?
Quote from: gwillybj on April 17, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
The sea bonus is lost, but it becomes a Unity pod on the land raised. This pod acts like any other: it might show up a monolith, a worm, a resource bonus, or whatever else is possible.
Quote from: BUncle on April 17, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
That sounds right.

I keep forgetting that it does that, and was disappointed when I was raising land as recently as a few weeks ago - and I've been playing since the year SMAC came out.
Quote from: Yitzi on April 17, 2013, 11:26:36 PM
If you provide a link of a game where the bonus-loss happens, it may be possible for someone to take a look at it at some point.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 21, 2013, 09:43:50 PM
Quote from: BUncle on April 21, 2013, 09:03:30 PM
This is about sea bonuses becoming pods when raised to land - and I dunno if either is a bug.  Just pointing out oddities.

Quote from: Nexii on April 16, 2013, 05:55:09 AM
I've noted you can also lose sea resource bonus squares from raising.  Maybe this is already known.
Quote from: BUncle on April 17, 2013, 05:53:23 PM
I knew about it. 

Patchers?
Quote from: gwillybj on April 17, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
The sea bonus is lost, but it becomes a Unity pod on the land raised. This pod acts like any other: it might show up a monolith, a worm, a resource bonus, or whatever else is possible.
Quote from: BUncle on April 17, 2013, 06:47:28 PM
That sounds right.

I keep forgetting that it does that, and was disappointed when I was raising land as recently as a few weeks ago - and I've been playing since the year SMAC came out.
Quote from: Yitzi on April 17, 2013, 11:26:36 PM
If you provide a link of a game where the bonus-loss happens, it may be possible for someone to take a look at it at some point.

Ah, I misunderstood what it was for.  That said, the two (rockiness and the resource transformation) are probably the same bug, and they're too hard for me to work on at this point.  Scient might be able to, though, try asking him.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 21, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
Not sure either is a bug.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Yitzi on April 21, 2013, 10:20:06 PM
Quote from: BUncle on April 21, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
Not sure either is a bug.

They sometimes happen, sometimes don't, and (at least for the first) trying to investigate it via a debugger makes it not happen.  That is not the behavior of something that was put in intentionally.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 21, 2013, 10:22:52 PM
[shrugs]  The rockiness changing randomly is actually useful sometimes, as formers have a level function but not the converse.
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: gwillybj on April 22, 2013, 02:37:33 AM
Quote from: BUncle on April 21, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
Not sure either is a bug.
I'll second that. ;b;
Title: Re: Illegal land-raising trick
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 11, 2022, 04:04:51 AM
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