Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Lord Avalon on November 08, 2012, 01:37:55 AM

Title: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 08, 2012, 01:37:55 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 07, 2012, 11:05:40 PM

Avalon, I didn't welcome you before.  I now do.  We're very glad to have you at AC2.

Greetings.  Fascinating how this game of factions has spawned a bunch of fora.  :D

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 08, 2012, 01:46:28 AM

Fascinating that it's still touching so many people after so many years and brings us together.  It's that good. ;)



Edit:

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 08, 2012, 01:37:55 AM

this game of factions has spawned a bunch of fora.

Correction: the game has spawned exactly ONE forum.  This one.  All else is afterthought subs on Civ sites.  Here, we're finally masters in our own house.

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 12:07:20 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 08, 2012, 01:46:28 AM

Edit:

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 08, 2012, 01:37:55 AM

this game of factions has spawned a bunch of fora.

Correction: the game has spawned exactly ONE forum.  This one.  All else is afterthought subs on Civ sites.  Here, we're finally masters in our own house.

Whatever.  I was making no distinction between forum and subforum.

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Rymdolov on November 09, 2012, 12:10:31 AM

I notice I'm damaged by facebook - Whenever I see a interesting and/or funny post I start looking for the like button. And that happens all the time - you people are so likable.  :luv:

My apologies for excessive cuteness, btw.  ;)

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 09, 2012, 12:20:19 AM

You have nothing to apologize for.  We love Kilkakon anyway, so your cuteness doesn't even register.

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 12:07:20 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 08, 2012, 01:46:28 AM

Edit:

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 08, 2012, 01:37:55 AM

this game of factions has spawned a bunch of fora.

Correction: the game has spawned exactly ONE forum.  This one.  All else is afterthought subs on Civ sites.  Here, we're finally masters in our own house.

Whatever.  I was making no distinction between forum and subforum.

Whatever indeed.  I find the distinction to be a CRUCIAL one, not to mean to come off snippy or anything.  I've tried all the subforums, and find that having our own place really matters.  The proof is all araound you in what we've been able to get going in less than a year.

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 12:28:04 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 09, 2012, 12:20:19 AM

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 12:07:20 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 08, 2012, 01:46:28 AM

Edit:

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 08, 2012, 01:37:55 AM

this game of factions has spawned a bunch of fora.

Correction: the game has spawned exactly ONE forum.  This one.  All else is afterthought subs on Civ sites.  Here, we're finally masters in our own house.

Whatever.  I was making no distinction between forum and subforum.

Whatever indeed.  I find the distinction to be a CRUCIAL one, not to mean to come off snippy or anything.  I've tried all the subforums, and find that having our own place really matters.  The proof is all araound you in what we've been able to get going in less than a year.

If there had not been a splintering of the various Civ-oriented fora, would you still have created a SMAC/X-specific forum?

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Rymdolov on November 09, 2012, 12:45:56 AM

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 12:28:04 AM

If there had not been a splintering of the various Civ-oriented fora, would you still have created a SMAC/X-specific forum?

I haven't been involved in forum politics, but from what sisko and BUncle have told me, I think the answer to that one is yes. The splintering is not the point, the point is to not be regarded as Civ's weird hillbilly cousin.  :)

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 09, 2012, 12:50:43 AM

 :D  Good answer, Rym.  ;b;

Quote from: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 12:28:04 AM

If there had not been a splintering of the various Civ-oriented fora, would you still have created a SMAC/X-specific forum?

If you're asking about the people politics behind my reason for being here, I don't talk about them.  This is just where I hang out now, and want more people to talk to about SMAC(X).  This site isn't about spite, it's not about settling any scores, and it's CERTAINLY not about excluding ANYONE.

It IS about what a great game AC is.  It IS about the AC community, which I believe in, and have worked hard to build for a long time.  There are more fans out there who have yet to find this community than have ever come and gone - and I want all of them here; the oldtimers and the new. 

And I didn't create this site - sisko did, because he's believed in that 'masters in our own house' business for a lot longer than I have.  When I finally came to realize that he was right back in February, I threw my full support behind AC2.  We're not about forum politics, and have avoided bad-mouthing, and indeed, have worked on securing some good inter-forum relations.  I'm somewhat of a regular poster at CFC AC lately.  I was counseling Martin Gühmann about how to breathe some life back into 'poly AC recently, in fact.  A rising tide really does lift all boats.

To directly answer your question, I just don't know; I joined the community about five minutes before the migration to WPC happened; most of the splintering happened before I got here.

Now, we're way OT for this thread, and while I have no objection to discussing this -you're giving me openings to make my ideological/motivational speeches, which I think are important- do you mind if I move some key posts into their own thread in the Counsel Room?  (And ask yourself how many mods ever asked your permission in advance about something like that.)

Title: Re: Re: The Weather Paradigm - is it any good?
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 01:32:33 AM

No prob, go ahead move them.

Title: Re: AC2 and Forum Politics
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 09, 2012, 02:04:51 AM

Thanks.  I only edited your post to change the thread title - I've decided to leave this thread in ToE for now, for the sake of anyone who'd miss it in Council Room, and let sisko decide whether to leave or move it.

---

Tell me, LA; you've been around forever - what do you think the deal is with all the splintering fora? 

(I'd really love to get DarkCloud here writing up a history of the community.  He loves that kind of stuff.)

Anyone else who's been around at least six or seven years care to speak up on your insights about this?  It's something we all need to understand if we're to avoid the mistakes of the past...

Title: Re: AC2 and Forum Politics
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 09, 2012, 03:04:09 AM

This is getting a bit deeper than I meant (not that there's anything wrong with that).  I was merely drawing an analogy between a game with factions and the various places to find a SMAC/X (sub)forum.

Being somewhat new here, from things I read I mistakenly assumed you had created this site.

Actually, I wasn't at Apolyton in the old, old days (joined post Civ 4).  There may have been some personal history between people of which I'm unaware.  I wasn't entirely clear on why some people broke off and created We Play Civ.  Some differences of opinion on the way to run things, plus things getting heated.  I signed up there, but spent more time hanging around 'Poly, where I was most active.  Then there came the subforum at CivGaming.net - was that for the hosting of scient's patch?  Finally found my way here.

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 09, 2012, 03:41:21 AM

:D  I actually know the answer to all those questions about '09 and beyond in pretty fine detail, but I want to be a peacemaker, not stir up bad feelings and possibly reignite/get involved in old wars, which spilling my guts might do.

The short answer about WPC is that there was much unhapiness about 'poly trolling policy, and when the site changed owners, two admins who'd been looking to strike out on their own already figured that was their cue to go for it.  Some others, largely SMACers motivated by that trolling issue, jumped on the bus pretty enthusiastically with the recruiting, and so WPC got a lot of traction, especially in the AC community, before it settled into its current doldrums.

CGN was founded by two guys (I've never met) who were banned at 'poly at the time a very long time ago.  It did very well for several years, finally ran out of gas and passed into the hands of buster (no relation).  vyeh got a modship from buster and revived it in mid '09 - I'm not sure what his actual goal was, but I think he thought that hosting the very popular scientIffic patch and work on it with the very popular scient would lead to bigger things.  At any rate, he was certainly correct that scient's patch was a worthwhile thing in itself.  Like everyone else, scient wishes he had more time for it.

I know nothing about the origins of CFC, and its success is a mystery to me.


It's an easy mistake to make about who's in charge here, I guess.  sisko and I work closely together, but the division of labor we naturally fall into is that he mostly handles tech issues and overall forum design, while I do most of the forum-wide talking and people management - so I'm a lot more visible, at least outside MP.  It suits our personalities and interests; we work on promoting the site and getting that word out about equally, but my part shows more if you don't do FaceBook.  He's actually the owner, though, and although we regard each other as pretty equal partners, I try to defer to him; it creates a wise balance between his natural caution ond my natural enthusiasm.

To the extent any of this catches your interest at all, I recommend this thread: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2293.0  When you've waded through my cheerleading speeches (they work!) and some chatter, there's a lot in there about our philosphy and policies (also, a bit more gossip can be gleaned).

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2012, 10:54:49 PM

IMO CFC success can be simply tied to better mod support, better community building (with GOTM and similar), and a no nonsense troll policy.  Then you have all the info easily gathered, you go to CFC when you need to look up something (Civ anyway, not so sure AC).  You go elsewhere to shoot the breeze. 

I mean, Poly is the site that BANNED me for advertising their Civ III demogame.  (Upload violation of a poster similar to your GOTM ones designed to increase site traffic.  I posted it straight to the news feed, being on the staff at the time, then got banned for violating upload policy with a "non civ related" upload.  Most amusing the red X on the front page of the site)  That's quality community building there. 

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2012, 11:04:13 PM

I suppose that it's true that a proactive staff is far better for a forum than a lazy one, but I note the generally younger age of CFC's membership demographic and assure you that there's a good reason I won't set foot outside the AC section.  Nobody nerdbagdes me twice.

I still think that a proactive mod staff not on a power trip is the way to go.

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2012, 11:09:28 PM

That's part of the community building though, really.  They were on board a lot earlier with the more 'social site' additions that BB board offers.  This tends to attract a younger demographic.  Like I say, right now, Civ anyway, they are THE go-to site for information.  Despite my record here, I rarely venture into OT on most boards, actually, so won't comment much about the discussions there. 

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2012, 11:15:49 PM

[shrugs] Sure.  They picked a style and their audience has found them.  I'm not part of that audience, though.

You know, there's something to be said for having a selection of moderation styles available - anything goes certainly has its fans, too, and I'm just glad a lot of the inhabitants of their OT aren't out there looking for a home.  We've been awful lucky about the maturity  level of the members who've found us so far.

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Unorthodox on November 17, 2012, 01:33:29 AM

There's a Raider's forum I visit that's attempted that.  (specific anything goes section) It's a dismal abyss of a place now.  If they weren't one of the better offseason news sources I wouldn't bother. 

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 17, 2012, 02:38:05 AM

Yeah, I mentioned to someone just the other day that we aren't going to do that.  I'm not entirely blind to the appeal, but no - we just don't want those guys here.  There's places for that, and AC2 isn't one of them.

I was talking about a selection within the Civ circle of forums, not here.

Title: Re: AC2 and Forum Politics
Post by: Dale on January 11, 2013, 02:18:36 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 09, 2012, 02:04:51 AM

Tell me, LA; you've been around forever - what do you think the deal is with all the splintering fora? 

(I'd really love to get DarkCloud here writing up a history of the community.  He loves that kind of stuff.)

Anyone else who's been around at least six or seven years care to speak up on your insights about this?  It's something we all need to understand if we're to avoid the mistakes of the past...

Brief history of Civ sites (I'm probably one of the few remaining who can give the whole picture):

1998: Markos & Dan team up to form Apolyton, a fan site for Civilization 2.  Previously, both held their own private fan pages on Civ2.
1999: Apolyton adds SMAC (amongst other games) to its lineup.
2000: Thunderfall moves hosts and converts personal Geocities fan page to CFC.
2000: CGN started by ex-Apolytoners
2001: GOTM and Democracy Games started at CFC
2002: Apolyton University
2005: Firaxis forms Frankenstein Beta Group from leading members from the entire community.
2006: Polycon
2006: Markos steps down as owner of Apolyton and his half of the site divided between Locutus, Ming and Rah (joining Dan).
2006: Dan starts PolyCast, Civ's first dedicated podcast
2009: WPC founded by Locutus, Solver (who left Apolyton) and Dale
2009: Dan steps down as owner of Apolyton, Plompy takes over
2011: Dale steps down as owner of WPC to form his own game company (might have been considered a conflict of interest)

I've no idea when Buster took over CGN.

Note, there's a few other Civ sites that popped up and disappeared over time.  Some may even still exist.  But the reality is, the four sites listed are the backbone of Civ community network.  Note: Colonization and SMAC (now) have their own networks.

If you want my opinion as to why CFC succeeded where the others failed, there's two very simple reasons:
1. CFC has ALWAYS had a fully committed active admin team.  Other sites have not had consistent strong leadership.
2. CFC has added lots of community based features such as demo games, HOF, mod project sites, easy to use download database, etc etc.

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Green1 on January 11, 2013, 08:36:48 AM

CFC also has enough traffic to probably generate a small income as well for at least the big admins. That always provides initiative for someone to stay focused.

Title: Re: AC2 & Forum Politics
Post by: Dale on January 11, 2013, 01:00:42 PM

Hosting costs are bugger all.  $50 a month max.