Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: Alfapiomega on November 03, 2012, 08:46:43 AM

Title: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Alfapiomega on November 03, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
Hello everyone!

I checked but there seems to be nothings (almost nothing) about the total conversion mod Planetfall for Civilisation 4. I doubt other SMAC lovers wouldn't try it (despite me not trying it) so I was wondering if you could share your impressions :) The Planetfall forums seems to be full of cheerful people but it's always hard to guess how many of them are 14 years old and how many actually played SMAC (no dissing intended) :) just looking for some truthful review!
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 03:09:15 PM
I made the Empath button for that, and I like Maniac.  I've seen a lot of screenshots, and the graphics appear to be lovingly-done, but AC still looks strange on that engine.

That's really all I know about Planetfall.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 08:43:02 PM
I played a bit of it and own Civ 4. The graphics are, indeed, gorgeous.

However, due to the limitations of the Civ 4 engine, much of the things that make Alpha Centauri unique could not make it in. For one, you can not terraform changing the terrain. No unit workshop was possible. There where also a lot of "additions" that I personally thought were non-canonical that SMAniAC and his team put in. The game also slows down on later turns to a crawl if you have an older computer. The total rework of the tech tree also turned some folks off along with making some things religions and actual corporations using Civ 4 :BtS's system for that.

That said, I do think any redo of AC could benifit from Civ 4's handling of some things. I love the way Civ 4 handles aircraft, for instance, over the way AC does. Instead of unit workshop, SMAniAC and crew used Civ 4's promotion system. It works well enough. Much better AI due to using Civ 4's more modern AI.

I have often said, if you could just take Planetfall's graphics and Civ 4's AI and plug it into SMAX, folks would go nuts.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Alfapiomega on November 03, 2012, 08:52:59 PM
I played a bit of it and own Civ 4. The graphics are, indeed, gorgeous.

However, due to the limitations of the Civ 4 engine, much of the things that make Alpha Centauri unique could not make it in. For one, you can not terraform changing the terrain. No unit workshop was possible. There where also a lot of "additions" that I personally thought were non-canonical that SMAniAC and his team put in. The game also slows down on later turns to a crawl if you have an older computer. The total rework of the tech tree also turned some folks off along with making some things religions and actual corporations using Civ 4 :BtS's system for that.

That said, I do think any redo of AC could benifit from Civ 4's handling of some things. I love the way Civ 4 handles aircraft, for instance, over the way AC does. Instead of unit workshop, SMAniAC and crew used Civ 4's promotion system. It works well enough. Much better AI due to using Civ 4's more modern AI.

I have often said, if you could just take Planetfall's graphics and Civ 4's AI and plug it into SMAX, folks would go nuts.

I might give it a try later on on account of what you said. Regarding the actual SMAC2 I am still hopeful. The game is indeed a masterpiece and if I ever get rich enough I would do it.
BTW that brings up a thing I had in mind for a long time - why is there no actual fundraising for SMAC2? I mean like a kickstarter. If people asked the original producers that could get a massive support. I know I would pledge 100USD in a blink.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 08:55:24 PM
[shrugs]  We'll never know until someone tries...  It ought to at least make for an effective and persuasive publicity stunt if it takes off at all.  Go for it.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Alfapiomega on November 04, 2012, 07:56:16 AM
[shrugs]  We'll never know until someone tries...  It ought to at least make for an effective and persuasive publicity stunt if it takes off at all.  Go for it.

...me?
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 04, 2012, 12:40:24 PM
Yeah you.  I ain't gonna do it.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Alfapiomega on November 04, 2012, 01:14:58 PM
Yeah you.  I ain't gonna do it.

I wanted to say: "me? I am hardly qualified to do that"

but then you would say: "anyone can say that"

then I would have to reply: "yes but I AM not qualified"

and you would just repeat: "again, anyone can say that."

Hm... where would one start with this? Probably find out who own the property rights for SMAC franchise. That would be Firaxis and Firaxis is owned by 2K/T2. Hm...
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 04, 2012, 01:17:44 PM
I think it's EA.  Not sure if that covers any sequel, but probably.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 05, 2012, 01:06:43 AM
And anyway, what I'd really reply is "Take initiative; that's how things get done.  Someone has to go first.".

The proof of that is this forum.  Someone went first, then persuaded others to back his play.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Pickly on November 05, 2012, 01:49:54 AM
In general, I'd say I liked the gameplay overall a bit better (There are a lot of options that weren't available thanks to Civ 4 limitations, but I did like a lot of the Civ 4 based additions, and I liked that the terraforming system encouraged something other than lots of forests and/or advanced options + crawlers), but it does lack the immersion that Alpha Centauri had (Tech tree doesn't help with this.)

It's one of those cases where the mod diverges enough that the two versions are less competition and more two complementary versions of the game.  (And likely like a lot of you, I would like to see some ideas from the mod adding to a theoretical sequel.)
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 18, 2012, 04:02:59 AM
...Bumping this for Maniac to see...
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on November 18, 2012, 05:31:24 AM
Well, Maniac himself did say once that the Civ 4 engine, while powerful, could tend to be rather bland sometimes. Not sure where he said it.

If there was just a way that Maniac could overcome the Civ 4 limitation so you can raise/lower terrain, that would be a huge step. I do agree with Maniac that doing it for Civ 5 is out of the question.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Maniac on November 20, 2012, 10:04:39 AM
The lack of a unit workshop and elevation terraforming is not due to limitations in the Civ4 engine, but deliberate design choices. Reason: there's a trade-off between on one side freedom to do whatever you want and on the other side having interesting trade-offs and strategic choices in the game.

Let's look at the unit workshop. First off, Planetfall does have a special ability system with a larger variety of spec abs than SMAC had. So in that area Planetfall certainly isn't inferior. What Planetfall doesn't have is free choice of attack strength, defense strength, and movement points (ADM).

SMAC's customization of ADM creates only one trade-off for unit design: cost versus ADM. A system of pre-designed units Civ4/Planetfall-style allows for unit types to be much more distinct, and as a result create more meaningful choice. Eg infantry vs chopper in Planetfall is AD<->M: infantry is strong but slow; chopper is fast but weaker. There are also three different infantry lines (flamethrower, genite, marine + their upgrades) each with their own benefits. Stuff like that isn't possible with SMAC.

Besides, a lot of the freedom the unit workshop offers in theory is false or meaningless freedom. After people have played the game for a while they converge to using the same designs every single game. Eg for needlejets that's a "best weapon - no armour" and "impact weapon - no armour" design. If that's all people use, one might as well put those designs in the game Civ4-style and save the trouble of creating a unit workshop.


Second point, elevation terraforming. I don't even see what that option added to SMAC's gameplay. Sure, I've created the occasional energy park, but what else was it used for?  And it is subject to the same trade-off as with the unit workshop: freedom versus meaningful choice. Elevation in Planetfall has more features designed around it than SMAC had. Besides affecting the output of certain terrain improvements, Planetfall doesn't allow movement between ridges and lowlands. This makes combat more tactical. These movement restrictions can be circumvented by choppers, or by building a bunker on a ridge you want to move to. Elevation also influences the spread of fungus: it can't spread on highlands and ridges, thus creating safe haven for Planet polluting players. Stuff like that would lose its meaning if players could just convert the entire world in an endless stretch of highlands. Giving the player limited tools to deal with the environment they ended up in allows for a more strategic game than the endless "freedom" of SMAC's sandbox.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Lord Avalon on November 20, 2012, 11:46:54 PM
Is it meaningless if I'm using the same unit designs, but I'm also using all the slots?  When I get a reactor upgrade, I see what low-level armor I can throw on former crawlers & sea formers for free; or at better reactors, what can go on aircraft.  I eventually end up with several types of supply units at different min levels.  Depending on my EC, I might have a few high morale cheap units that get upgraded to better units.

As far as elevation, since I play mostly on huge maps, the main use (since I learned that crawling nuts + specialits is better than crawling energy) is to raise isthmuses to join continents/islands (while trying to avoid blocking sea lanes) so I can (eventually) zip across much of the world (or at least my territory) on magtubes.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on November 22, 2012, 05:16:45 AM
Let's look at the unit workshop. First off, Planetfall does have a special ability system with a larger variety of spec abs than SMAC had. So in that area Planetfall certainly isn't inferior. What Planetfall doesn't have is free choice of attack strength, defense strength, and movement points (ADM).

SMAC's customization of ADM creates only one trade-off for unit design: cost versus ADM. A system of pre-designed units Civ4/Planetfall-style allows for unit types to be much more distinct, and as a result create more meaningful choice. Eg infantry vs chopper in Planetfall is AD<->M: infantry is strong but slow; chopper is fast but weaker. There are also three different infantry lines (flamethrower, genite, marine + their upgrades) each with their own benefits. Stuff like that isn't possible with SMAC.

Interesting way of putting it. The promotion system of Civ 4 is a lot quicker and seamless. Still, for folks who have never tried your team's mods, the lack of workshop does need to be pointed out. The lack of unit workshop is not really a negative, but an observation. But, you do bring up good points about the "ONE" design for needlejets.

Quote
Second point, elevation terraforming. I don't even see what that option added to SMAC's gameplay. Sure, I've created the occasional energy park, but what else was it used for?  And it is subject to the same trade-off as with the unit workshop: freedom versus meaningful choice. Elevation in Planetfall has more features designed around it than SMAC had. Besides affecting the output of certain terrain improvements, Planetfall doesn't allow movement between ridges and lowlands. This makes combat more tactical. These movement restrictions can be circumvented by choppers, or by building a bunker on a ridge you want to move to. Elevation also influences the spread of fungus: it can't spread on highlands and ridges, thus creating safe haven for Planet polluting players. Stuff like that would lose its meaning if players could just convert the entire world in an endless stretch of highlands. Giving the player limited tools to deal with the environment they ended up in allows for a more strategic game than the endless "freedom" of SMAC's sandbox.

This is where I disagree.

In Planetfall, I found the not being able to move between different terrains to be unintuitive as opposed to more "tactical".

Second, the raising and lowering of terrain features prominently in war, not just for energy parks. In an AAR I did, Miriam raised land to come over and show Lal some evangelism in the form of masses bloodthirsty troops. In an ancient AAR by Chuft, his faction utterly castrated a powerful aqua based custom alien faction by raising sea levels. So, we agree to disagree on that one.

Still, to this day though.. out of all the failed threads of hope and dreams for AC2.. you guys are the only ones that have produced anything both playable and enjoyable. I also love the way Civ 4 handles airpower over SMAX. Whoever did your terrain graphics needs a medal.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: BlaneckW on November 22, 2012, 08:39:54 AM
I can live without unit workshop but I did not find that Planetfall was very close the spirit of the original.  I'm not sure they read the GURPS book, which can shed insight on characters like Yang.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on December 08, 2012, 12:11:08 AM
Heck, I have not read the GURPS SMAC book yet either. Do not think it sould be a requirement for Maniac and crew. Those things are very rare and obscure books. Would be a interesting world to campaign in if you had a regular reliable pnp gamer group handy that can handle new things instead of DnD 3.5/4e or WoD products. Maybe someone has a copy of the stuff on peer to peer, since that would be the only economical way to view the stuff.

Myself, I have only run into one whole group that played GURPs in my lifetime. They were at an annual convention in Biloxi, MS. It seemed like they merely just brought the group there to conduct the regular game session they usually ran at a house as opposed to being too open to new players, so I did not get to try the system. I digress OT.

One of these days, I should crank out a playthrough of Planetfall so I can point out things I like and am not too thrilled over. Over all, though even with my purist and cynical gripes, I think all will be able to apreciate Maniac and crew's work. I think they are several patches further along than when I took it for a spin last time, so it deserves another look.

The GURPs deal does bring up something a bit off topic though - Surely Steve Jackson and crew that made the GURPS version had a larger bestiary than mindworms, fungal towers, sea lurks, isles of the deep, and locusts of chiron. While all 4x modding communities have extra factions and TCMs, the fantasy 4x gamers have us beat on one thing: monster booster packs!
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Maniac on December 08, 2012, 02:38:33 AM
Yeah I haven't read GURPS, but I don't see why I should. It's not canon at all.

Anyway, a reason not to include terrain elevation changing was because I want the difference between land and sea to be meaningful. But now I'm thinking: that difference loses some of its meaning anyway when gravships become available. So it wouldn't be such a paradigm change if elevation terraforming became available around the same time. So good news, I'll put elevation terraforming on my to do list. But bad news: 1) my to do list is veeeeeeeeery long, and 2) it'll only become available near the end of the tech tree, so it won't be a game changing addition if that's what you're after.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on December 08, 2012, 03:13:40 AM
No problem. One of the things that really anoys me on some of these mod "feedback" forums is these users that make demands or say something "sucks" and do not give positive feedback nor have any actual appreciation for the amount of "work" involved - particularly unpaid work done out of love.

:)
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Kirov on December 08, 2012, 12:55:42 PM
So good news, I'll put elevation terraforming on my to do list. But bad news: 1) my to do list is veeeeeeeeery long, and 2) it'll only become available near the end of the tech tree, so it won't be a game changing addition if that's what you're after.

I didn't realize - you can introduce raising terrain into Civ4 engine?  :o
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on December 09, 2012, 02:40:50 AM
If that is possible, that would be an impressive feat with the Civ4 engine.

I would want to make it well before gravships and stuff, but that is just my preference.

I wonder how the Civ 4 AI is going to handle it?
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Pickly on December 09, 2012, 05:12:10 AM
The SDK/DLL in Civ 4 allows you to do all sorts of wild stuff, if you can figure it out (Which may or may not be that difficult, depending on how fast you pick up programming skills/how good your programming is.).  Terrain elevation would likely be one of the simpler things to do, at least as far as I can guess without directly looking at planetfall's code. (Although graphics may create some issues, have never really tried adjusting that beyond the very basics.)
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Kirov on December 09, 2012, 12:28:23 PM
The SDK/DLL in Civ 4 allows you to do all sorts of wild stuff, if you can figure it out.

Wow, that's cool. What about the workshop then?

But I bet you couldn't shoehorn SMAC SE settings the way they are, could you?
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Alfapiomega on December 11, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
Maniac, thanks for finding time to come here and answer some of the questions. I checked Youtube in my time of absence and while working on the LP of SMAC and there seems to be no proper Planetfall LP. As a fan of Civ4 and SMAC I was thinking it might be a good way how to introduce more people to your mod. Just let me know if you would like it or not.

I already downloaded all the game files from Sourceforge and I will try to assembe it in the next few days, then give it a try :) Also if you would like me to do an LP I would appreciate you taking time to watch the LP as I progress and point out some hints so I can make it more interesting for viewers :)
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on December 14, 2012, 03:19:36 AM
Maniac, thanks for finding time to come here and answer some of the questions. I checked Youtube in my time of absence and while working on the LP of SMAC and there seems to be no proper Planetfall LP. As a fan of Civ4 and SMAC I was thinking it might be a good way how to introduce more people to your mod. Just let me know if you would like it or not.

I already downloaded all the game files from Sourceforge and I will try to assembe it in the next few days, then give it a try :) Also if you would like me to do an LP I would appreciate you taking time to watch the LP as I progress and point out some hints so I can make it more interesting for viewers :)

I agree. A LP of Planetfall would get a few views and more DLs on CFC. I am even contemplating a future AAR myself. Maniac's take on Morgan with Civ 4: BtS corporation rules sounds...interesting.

They actually had a good PBEM of Planetfall that lasted a long time on CFC I saw.


Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Matt the Czar on December 28, 2012, 03:58:31 AM
I feel like its a mini SMAC 2.  But I wonder why the orbital infantry dont look like the M.I. from Starship Troopers
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Maniac on December 28, 2012, 05:59:39 PM
I didn't realize - you can introduce raising terrain into Civ4 engine?  :o

Depends what you're talking about. I mean simple changes between water<->lowland<->hills/highlands<->peak/ridges. Giving each tile an elevation level in meters and adding sea level rises, as SMAC had, would be more work.
More replies later. ;)
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on December 28, 2012, 10:04:21 PM
@Maniac:

Since I have a more powerful laptop than when I first cranked your mod up, I decided to give it a go a week or so ago. One of the things that made it a bummer was performance issues on larger maps. I was literally waiting for the comp between turns 5-8 minutes between turns mid to late game. With the more powerful comp, even then there are still hangs on larger maps.

Not sure what you guys can do about it, but the vast majority of single player sandbox SMAC (and, for that matter Civ) fans are huge map players.

Also: how is it going on the aliens?

Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 28, 2012, 10:27:32 PM
Hey Green -

What would you think of somone trying to get some Planetfall MP going here?  Anybody interested?  We'd accomodate the heck out of something like that...
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on December 28, 2012, 11:01:28 PM
At CFC, Maniac set up a email game that lasted a year.

I am sure you would have interest. The only requirements is that you need Civ 4 with Beyond the Sword patched to 3_19 FINAL and the latest version of Planetfall. If you have copies of SMAX, you can even rig it to use SMAX movies and voices.

Much of the work of the mod is still in progress, but Maniac has been churning away at it for a long time. There are performance issues and unfinished stuff.

No version exists for Civ 5. Only something that adds SMAC techs to a regular Civ 5 game which is really out of place. Civ 5 catches hell from bittervets, but it is a fundamental change in paradigm from the rest of the Civ series.

OT, but in the future: If someone wants to make a SMAX remake on a more modern engine than Civ 4, I think Kumquat/Fallen Enchantress has some spectacular tools The next version of Kumquat would be even better. . But really, like what my editorials were going to point at, we really need a more open source engine where talented folks like Maniac, Kilk, Kyrub, et al would not be tied to folks owning one product.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Maniac on December 29, 2012, 11:58:03 AM
I wonder how the Civ 4 AI is going to handle it?

AI code would have to written for when to execute that new build order, but as discussed before, myself I don't see any practical applications for such a build order, certainly not ones which could be turned into code. So it would just be a gimmick for human use.

Maniac, thanks for finding time to come here and answer some of the questions. I checked Youtube in my time of absence and while working on the LP of SMAC and there seems to be no proper Planetfall LP. As a fan of Civ4 and SMAC I was thinking it might be a good way how to introduce more people to your mod. Just let me know if you would like it or not.

I see you haven't been here since you made that post, so my reply is probably in vain, but yeah, a LP would certainly be nice. :)

Quote
I already downloaded all the game files from Sourceforge and I will try to assembe it in the next few days, then give it a try :) Also if you would like me to do an LP I would appreciate you taking time to watch the LP as I progress and point out some hints so I can make it more interesting for viewers :)

What do you mean re sourceforge and assemble? :confused: You just need to download and install the executable installers.

I agree. A LP of Planetfall would get a few views and more DLs on CFC. I am even contemplating a future AAR myself. Maniac's take on Morgan with Civ 4: BtS corporation rules sounds...interesting.

Morgan corporations are just a set of powerful buildings of which you can have only one per base, thus encouraging specialization. They are unrelated to the BtS corporations.

I feel like its a mini SMAC 2.  But I wonder why the orbital infantry dont look like the M.I. from Starship Troopers

I have to work with the available unit models. Starship Troopers isn't among them, alas.

Since I have a more powerful laptop than when I first cranked your mod up, I decided to give it a go a week or so ago. One of the things that made it a bummer was performance issues on larger maps. I was literally waiting for the comp between turns 5-8 minutes between turns mid to late game. With the more powerful comp, even then there are still hangs on larger maps.

Not sure what you guys can do about it, but the vast majority of single player sandbox SMAC (and, for that matter Civ) fans are huge map players.

Planetfall makes heavy use of naval blockades, which cause trade networks to be recalculated every turn. That costs time, and AFAIK the time cost increases exponentially with map size. Slowdowns on larger maps is an issue in the civ series in general however. Not much can be done about that. People don't like to hear it, but the civ series simply isn't made to be played on large maps.

Quote
Also: how is it going on the aliens?
...
Much of the work of the mod is still in progress, but Maniac has been churning away at it for a long time. There are performance issues and unfinished stuff.

I pretty much stopped work on Planetfall when Civ5 came out. (bad decision in hindsight) I barely mod Planetfall anymore. But I do not consider Planetfall an abandoned work in progress. I consider it a finished and perfectly playable product. Stuff like the aliens are optional add-ons, just like they were in Alien Crossfire. They could be nice to have, but the game stands without them.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Alfapiomega on December 31, 2012, 05:07:15 PM
Maniac, thanks for finding time to come here and answer some of the questions. I checked Youtube in my time of absence and while working on the LP of SMAC and there seems to be no proper Planetfall LP. As a fan of Civ4 and SMAC I was thinking it might be a good way how to introduce more people to your mod. Just let me know if you would like it or not.

I see you haven't been here since you made that post, so my reply is probably in vain, but yeah, a LP would certainly be nice. :)

Quote
I already downloaded all the game files from Sourceforge and I will try to assembe it in the next few days, then give it a try :) Also if you would like me to do an LP I would appreciate you taking time to watch the LP as I progress and point out some hints so I can make it more interesting for viewers :)

What do you mean re sourceforge and assemble? :confused: You just need to download and install the executable installers.

I am like a good bird, I return from time to time to check what's new ;)

Anyways ok, I'll definitely consider doing the LP now :) I just have a bunch of stuff that needs to be finished first. I recently ended the SMAC LP and in the next month or two I hope to start a couple of new LPs. this might be one of them.

By assembling I meant putting the game together with all the videos and souds and additional downloads you got there. Still didn't have time to do it though :-D Can't find my Civ4 disk :-/

And also I am sad that you do not actively work on Planetfall anymore. It seemed to be a great work. Why stop?
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Maniac on January 02, 2013, 11:09:37 PM
And also I am sad that you do not actively work on Planetfall anymore. It seemed to be a great work. Why stop?

1. The team has disbanded, as I stopped working on Planetfall. Can't get them back together of course. Annoying as for instance I'd like to create a new special ability button, but back then I forgot to ask Lord Tirian to write a tutorial to achieve the same style.
2. I've become hooked to roleplaying games like the Elder Scrolls and Fallout the past year. Playing those is more fun than modding. ;) Although, soon I may publish a (very minor) Skyrim mod.
Title: Re: Civilization 4: Planetfall
Post by: Green1 on January 03, 2013, 02:35:17 PM
I hear you, Maniac. I go towards other games, too. Civ 4 is good, but there are so many things out there.
Templates: 1: Printpage (default).
Sub templates: 4: init, print_above, main, print_below.
Language files: 4: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 31 - 840KB. (show)
Queries used: 14.

[Show Queries]