Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Chiron News Network => Topic started by: sisko on November 02, 2012, 01:41:55 PM

Title: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: sisko on November 02, 2012, 01:41:55 PM

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5TKSXEOvfGRHYB5Y47TL91OJWf1dZHE5ufabz48Z4qEcym3WB) (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/sid_meiers_alpha_centauri)

Alpha Centauri is again on sale at GOG (http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/sid_meiers_alpha_centauri) this weekend. You can buy it for $2.39.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 01:18:25 AM

Still no SMAX without resorting to the methods of Svensgard....

A terrible disservice to those getting into AC in this era.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 01:26:54 AM

It's an annoyance for us content producers, too, now that you mention it.  It's hard to remember that not everyone has X, and troublesome to lose audience that way.

How do you suppose we could raise a stink and get GOG to rectify?

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 01:36:03 AM

They HAVE been raising a stink on GoG forums.

As a side question, when does something legit become abandonware? If you ask me, the expansion is. Yeah, you can go to E-bay and purchase some neckbeard's decade old CD for an arm and a leg. But, that is too much.

If it IS abandonware, I am wondering the legality suggesting this to Abandonia or Home of the Underdogs for them to host. Then we link to them.

Yeah, there is Pirate Bay. But I doubt we want that drama if we eventually want cool visitors from Firaxis/EA/ or Take Two like they show up on other legacy game communities.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 01:43:49 AM

My position is that the Ulrik shortcut is wrong.  If you do it, I don't want to know about it.  That also serves our practical/legal purposes.  We don't condone it.

I do, however, openly condone getting yourself a crack if you want as long as you own a legal copy and everybody got paid - even if your copy is scratched up/unusable (though GOG would surely beg to differ and not be wrong).  That's different.  Also, OT.

If there's a stink on GOG's forum, there's even more people not speaking up who want it.  Is this even physical copies they sell?  It seems obvious that they can't make a deal to sell X.  I wonder why?

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 01:53:07 AM

If it is legally abandonware and no copies are being sold anywhere, there is no legal deal. Many classic games from SSI are on Abandonia including the classic Panzer General series. Problem is, from my reading, most of the legal abandonware is from defunct companies like SSI. SMAX is under EA still I think. But then again, Archon I and Archon II (EA) from the 80s are considered abandonware and are legally available for free download. You need a Commodore 64 emulator, though for most of the versions.

I hear you about no drama. My copies are legit. Although all the unofficial patches do contain the much needed CD crack that gets around the decade old DRM. Raises an ire on places like CFC, which I can understand because CFC gets news and insider stuff from Firaxis and they would not want to jeopardize that perk. Still, you are right. Hurts us and puts us in a situation.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 01:57:41 AM

[ninja'd and written in advance]

-And no, I don't see us having anything to do with Abandonia or Home of the Underdogs.  That's just a neckbeard piracy rationalization in the eyes of the lawyers.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 02:03:10 AM

Quote from: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 01:53:07 AM

If it is legally abandonware and no copies are being sold anywhere, there is no legal deal. Many classic games from SSI are on Abandonia including the classic Panzer General series. Problem is, from my reading, most of the legal abandonware is from defunct companies like SSI. SMAX is under EA still I think. But then again, Archon I and Archon II (EA) from the 80s are considered abandonware and are legally available for free download. You need a Commodore 64 emulator, though for most of the versions.

I hear you about no drama. My copies are legit. Although all the unofficial patches do contain the much needed CD crack that gets around the decade old DRM. Raises an ire on places like CFC, which I can understand because CFC gets news and insider stuff from Firaxis and they would not want to jeopardize that perk. Still, you are right. Hurts us and puts us in a situation.

Legal according to whom?  The pirates who run those sites? 

I have some media law from my Broadcasting degree; they're depending on exactly the same thing as anyone who publishes Star Trek fanfiction.  They're just not worth going after.  It's not legal just because they couldn't track down who owns the rights and because the IP in question is pretty near-worthless.  It still belongs to SOMEone, and they. are. pirates.

-CFC, on the other hand just likes forbidding things.  It's run that way.  I ain't got a problem with cracks as long as you're ethical.  I can't guarantee that our owner agrees with that, though.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 02:07:41 AM

Point taken.

Just wishing there was some way some of these new guys could experience the joys of spore launchers on IoDs and some of the devs making money off of this.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 02:12:58 AM

That's what kills me - if money's to be made selling the 1997 original, money's to be made selling 1999.  It doesn't make any sense.  There has to be a story to that.  I wonder what it is.

I wonder if they've planned all along to wait two years and release X if vanilla sells.  Anecdotal evidence I've seen is that it definitely has.  I keep seeing people saying they just got it for the first time.  It's been good for the online AC community in the last year, though people who've had it always still show up more.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 05:43:47 AM

I hear you, BU. Unless they do a proper sequel, this game is a cult classic. Same for some of the other games of that era: Masters of Magic, Galactic Civ, and Age of Wonders. Hell, Stardock unleashed Gal Civ for a weekend on GoG for a great sale and sold more copies in that weekend than they sold on the original release dates. Just like folks still play the Beatles, some things are just classic and age very well.

What's up with SMAX? Yeah, there was a lot of flak that somehow the new factions detracted. But, I think the new factions are more relevant today than 1999.

I agree.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Alfapiomega on November 03, 2012, 02:11:29 PM

If I may enter the discussion - one thing that is to be considered too is longevity. I bought the original AC disk when it was released for around 35USD at the time. The disk survived couple of years and then it was broken during me moving away from my home.
Now at that time I tried to get another copy but I couldn't so I downloaded a copy of the internet. I DID buy the game back in 90's so I don't feel bad about doing that.

But now that it came to GOG I bought it again (and I would even if it costed 10USD) because I am sure this copy won't get lost. If I feel like the company is going under I will just download all of the games I purchased there, make physical and electronical copies and be happy about it. Back in the 90's that was much harder that it is now.

For the same reason I hope they will release SMAX as well :) I want it too. It was a lucky coincidence that I came to this forums this Friday to learn about the sale :)

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 03, 2012, 08:37:05 PM

Complete agreement. ;b;  15 years is asking a lot of old plastic.  My CDs are mostly fine, but I've been lucky.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 04, 2012, 01:39:37 AM

Quote from: Green1 on November 03, 2012, 05:43:47 AM

What's up with SMAX? Yeah, there was a lot of flak that somehow the new factions detracted. But, I think the new factions are more relevant today than 1999.

I thought the same thing, sorta, when I finally got to try X about eight years ago - I don't think X is much of an expansion, and the new factions just plain aren't as good.

But they ARE good, and I don't know what all that has to do with the business end.  The thing that occurs to me?  X doesn't add 20% to vanilla, at a guess.  Make the market wait the right interval, and, just like the original release of X, pretty much everyone gives you their money twice - short-sighted to offer both in the initial release, when it virtually halves the long-term profit.  Look for X on sale sometime next year, I predict, assuming it's not all because they couldn't get the rights to sell X for some reason. 

My hypothesis would explain why they haven't shut down the ruckus on their own forums with the simple explaination that T2/EA/whoever wouldn't deal.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Alfapiomega on November 04, 2012, 08:10:42 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 03, 2012, 08:37:05 PM

Complete agreement. ;b;  15 years is asking a lot of old plastic.  My CDs are mostly fine, but I've been lucky.

Exactly. Especially if you think about the fact that (if I am not mistaken) their life-span is estimated as 10 years?

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Earthmichael on November 04, 2012, 01:16:39 PM

To answer the question about out-of-print material, the "fair use exception" of the copyright law permits making a copy of a legitimate original (for personal use only) of out-of-print material (there is no distinction in the law between books, music, video, or computer games).  This copy cannot be redistributed.  The burden of proof is on the copier to show that the material is out-of-print if challenged.   If the material is later reprinted, the copier must destroy the copy, since there is now an option to purchase the material.

This information was obtained from a lawyer friend, and was verified by two other lawyer friends.  Of course, typically if you ask 3 lawyers about anything, you will get 3 different opinions.  So it is very strange that they all 3 agree about this.

So I have no problem with someone who has a legitimate copy of SMAX allowing people to make copies for their own personal use, until such a time as SMAX becomes reprinted.   UPDATE: Since SMAX is actually in print in two version, the fair use exception DOES NOT APPLY.  Buy a legal copy from a source such as:
http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-1&keywords=Alien+Crossfire (http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-1&keywords=Alien+Crossfire)

http://www.amazon.com/Sid-Meiers-Alpha-Centauri-Complete-Pc/dp/B001RIYNF2/ref=sr_1_4?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-4&keywords=Alien+Crossfire (http://www.amazon.com/Sid-Meiers-Alpha-Centauri-Complete-Pc/dp/B001RIYNF2/ref=sr_1_4?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-4&keywords=Alien+Crossfire)

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Rymdolov on November 04, 2012, 03:58:57 PM

About abandonware: They are illegal, but no-one is likely to challenge you about them, just like BU said. If the copyright owner was to send a cease and desist letter to an abandonware site that hosted their intellectual property, the site owners would have no choice but to remove it.

That said, even though some use (abuse) the term abandonware as an excuse to go Svensgaard there are also those who are really only interested in keeping old gems alive. I think that Abandonia falls into the latter category. Not only won't they put out games that are still sold - they also have people actively looking for places where their hosted games are sold and if they find such a place they replace the download link with a link to the shop (it has happened on at least one occasion that I know of). They don't remove the review or anything, in practice making the review page a free advert for the retailer.

So I think that Abandonia is an ethical alternative, if not strictly legal. HotU, I don't remember having such scruples.  :-\

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 04, 2012, 04:04:16 PM

That makes a lot of sense.  But I still don't think AC2 ought to exactly seek out a partnership...  Google is a useful tool, however.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Rymdolov on November 04, 2012, 08:06:54 PM

I agree on the partnership thing. No illegal activities! O:-)

I just wanted to make a little speech in Abandonia's defense.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 04, 2012, 08:16:24 PM

You know, we're fans, and all the modders do derivative works based on someone else's intellectual property.  And we often use yet another IP in the process, like anytime we use a base from another game, or use almost any photo we didn't take ourselves.  It ain't legal at all - notwithstanding Firaxis' rather explicit encougement to fan modders.  I have no real legal right to any of my derivative work as a SMAC(X) modder, y'know?

Legal doesn't bother me much - we're pretty judgement-proof, if it comes to that, and who cares enough to try to come after us?  But doing what's right does concern me.  I guess the sensible measure is:  Is anyone hurt by the action?  Do no one any harm, and you're okay by me.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Earthmichael on November 04, 2012, 10:47:25 PM

I wish people would be more careful about throwing around the term "illegal".

The fair use exception to the copyright law (which IS part of the copyright law), allows one to legally do a lot of the things that people are calling illegal.  This includes making copies and derivative works for a number of reasons, including educational purposes, experimentation, etc. as long as it is not for commercial purposes, that is, you cannot sell the copies or derivative works without first making a copyright or intellectual property agreement with whoever hold rights to the original.

There are many technicalities that keep attorneys in business, but the point of the copyright law was to balance the rights and needs of the original creator with the desire to facilitate addition research, learning, and usage.  This usually works out that if you have reason to believe that the original has been abandoned (such as not being made commercially available to purchase), then you can proceed under the assumption that it has been abandoned (which still does not entitle you to sell their work).  If you are wrong about it being abandoned, and publish something, typically you will first receive a cease and desist letter to remove the work from distribution.  If you immediately comply with this letter, it is very unlikely that you will be pursued for further action, particularly if you document that you made a good faith attempt to buy the work, but could find no source, and/or you made a good faith effort to find the owner of the work and attempted to license the work.

I am not an attorney.  None of this is legal advice.  But then I doubt anyone else posting is an attorney either.  But this is information that I received from multiple attorneys when I inquired into this area of the law at my work.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Petek on November 05, 2012, 08:08:44 PM

Here's what's really odd about GOG's claim that they cannot secure the rights to reissue SMAX: The expansion pack is available from Mastertronic (http://www.mastertronic.com/productSoldOut.asp?pid=756&productLabelID=1) (AKA Sold Out Software or SOS). I've never seen an explanation for why SOS was able to secure the rights. It might be because Mastertronic is based in the UK. Another possible explanation is that GOG only reissues DRM-free games and SMAX still requires the CD to be in the drive. (Such DRM was removed from SMAC in a patch.)

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 05, 2012, 08:26:37 PM

...?  I still have a 1997 SMAC CD, and there was never any DRM on it; just an extra button to push.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Petek on November 05, 2012, 09:43:14 PM

Quote from: BUncle on November 05, 2012, 08:26:37 PM

...?  I still have a 1997 SMAC CD, and there was never any DRM on it; just an extra button to push.

That's correct: The original release had no DRM. A subsequent patch added the CD requirement and the Win2k/XP update removed it.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 05, 2012, 09:49:19 PM

Ah.  I thought that was only X.  Well, knowlege is power, and thanks for empowering me.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 10, 2012, 04:29:20 AM

I didn't realize you can still get X from Sold Out Software for six bucks:
http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y (http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y)

I understand this has SecuROM.  On a completely unconnected note, I understand the scientIffic patch undoes that.

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Earthmichael on November 10, 2012, 04:42:25 AM

Quote from: BUncle on November 10, 2012, 04:29:20 AM

I didn't realize you can still get X from Sold Out Software for six bucks:
http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y (http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y)

I understand this has SecuROM.  On a completely unconnected note, I understand the scientIffic patch undoes that.

Wow, this is a great deal, since it includes both SMAC and SMAX for your $5.49.  With $3.99 shipping to the US, that is still a great bargain at under $9.50 for both game and expansion!

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 10, 2012, 04:45:20 AM

...And we have the scientIffic patch right here in Downloads at AC2...

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Earthmichael on November 10, 2012, 04:51:04 AM

Anyone have any idea what the difference is between this two products?

http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-1&keywords=Alien+Crossfire (http://www.amazon.com/Meiers-Centauri-Complete-Crossfire-Expansion/dp/B002OH8U0Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-1&keywords=Alien+Crossfire)

http://www.amazon.com/Sid-Meiers-Alpha-Centauri-Complete-Pc/dp/B001RIYNF2/ref=sr_1_4?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-4&keywords=Alien+Crossfire (http://www.amazon.com/Sid-Meiers-Alpha-Centauri-Complete-Pc/dp/B001RIYNF2/ref=sr_1_4?s=software&ie=UTF8&qid=1352522777&sr=1-4&keywords=Alien+Crossfire)

They are both sold by harleys, but the second one is $.50 cheaper, and it states that it runs on  Windows 7.  The first one does not specify the platform. 

Is there some difference in DRM or other factors?

BTW, there was this useful comment about the Windows 7 installer from jason r brown:
Yeah the installer doesn't work on windows 7 unfortunately, I spent a few hours pulling out my hair until I found bits and pieces of info. This post was invaluable in helping me though, http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?112816-SMAC-on-Win-7-64-bit (http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?112816-SMAC-on-Win-7-64-bit)

First thing you need to do is make a directory outside of program files, or program files(x86) because save files are created within the directory, and windows 7 doesnt like this. I made a directory called Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri on the root of the drive. Next step is copy the contents of programs (directory on the cd) to that directory , then copy over voices/movies/fx from the cd. Now do the same for Alien Crossfire, and just overwrite files when it asks. After you do all of that follow the directions in that link I posted and you should be good to go :). Game runs awesome for me and it runs in 1080. Oh terran.exe is for the original, and terranx.exe is to run alien crossfire, hope this helps!

Title: Re: 60% sale on EA Selection including SMAC
Post by: Petek on November 10, 2012, 12:00:47 PM

Regarding the two Amazon listings: I think you'll get the same product no matter which one you order. Box art and list price in the first link are wrong. I looked into this several years ago when the SOS version became available. Basically, any Amazon offer that includes both SMAC and SMAX will be the SOS version.

The SOS versions of SMAC and SMAX contain two types of DRM: "CD-must-be-in-the-drive" protection and anti-copying protection (SecuROM). The first type is present in SOS-SMAX, but not in SOS-SMAC. The second type is installed by default by both games. It (SecuROM) will not be uninstalled if you replace the SOS exe files with scient's unofficial patch. Many computer users dislike SecuROM because it interferes with legitimate CD copying programs.

The installation of SecuROM can be easily bypassed, using files that are present on both installation discs. Anyone who buys the SOS product should PM me for instructions how to do so. Even though the technique involves no "hacking", I'm reluctant to post the instructions in public.