Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: ete on October 27, 2012, 12:56:12 PM

Title: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: ete on October 27, 2012, 12:56:12 PM

Things I love about it

Quotes - Some of them are so deep, others are extremely interesting (especially many of Zak's).
Datalinks - Despite the little issues which I'm working on solving, I love having this volume of information.
Real conflict between non-black/white ideologies - Too many games have clear good/bad guys. That's unrealistic, and annoying. The way AC has so much variety of agendas, and the way that literally all of them have some reason behind them, makes it so much more interesting.
Complex politics - You don't feel like you're just playing a game of kill everyone. Because... you're not playing that kind of game. Based on so many things, you can make and break alliances, betray, manipulate, and generally out-think other players rather than just brute forcing through them.
Storyline - The storyline is one of my favorite parts. Apparently evil mindless aliens which bore into your brain to lay their eggs.. turn out to be again, not black and white. The natives are literally the future of humanity, and are originally just fighting back against humans wreaking their planet. Plus Planet :). How can you go wrong with an ~450 million year old sentient fungal neural network which threatens to wipe out humanity and writes poems.
Terraforming - Particularly the Up and Down options. Being able to alter the landscape is awesome. Plus the general diversity of terraforming.
Customisability - Alphax edits, faction editability. It's really good, just missing polish.

Things which I like but have issues
Design workshop - It's awesome that it exists, but it does take a long time updating everything. What would be ideal perhaps would be to give the user the ability to save units as defaults, so they only had to design each unit once. And have a few more default units.
Technologies - A lot of them are really cool, but many are kind of silly. It's be nice to have it a little more hard sciency in places (e.g. chaos gun).
Social Engineering - Very good, but kind of limited with three options per thing.
Drones - I can see how it's essential in a way, but so much micromanagement..

Things which are annoying

Lategame taking forever because of all the units/bases
General buggyness (mostly minor ones with the patch, but still)
Slightly awkward controls in places
AI (both foes and your automated units/bases) having problems
Multiplayer is difficult/slow/I can't get IP play working
It's waaaaay too addictive. Too many times I've finished a game and realised it's light outside.

I really look forward to someone taking the best elements of this game and building something which is up to standard with current games in the ways AC has problems.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Petek on October 27, 2012, 06:03:45 PM

Quote

Design workshop - It's awesome that it exists, but it does take a long time updating everything. What would be ideal perhaps would be to give the user the ability to save units as defaults, so they only had to design each unit once. And have a few more default units.

You can create your own default units by modifying Alpha(x).txt. See below for my customized version (created by Darsnan). All of these units become available to both the human and the AI upon acquiring the required tech. Also note that these new units do not count against the 64-unit limit in the design workshop. I could say a lot more about the new units, but I just wanted to point out that the capabilities that you ask for already exist. However, you cannot pre-design units in Alpha(x).txt that have higher-level reactors (e.g., fusion and above). Adding that ability would be nice.

Code: [Select]

#UNITS
47
Colony Pod,             Infantry, Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 3, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Formers,                Infantry, Formers,      Scout,      9, 2, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Scout Patrol,           Infantry, Gun,          Scout,      3, 1, 0, None,    -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Transport Foil,         Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, DocFlex, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
*Sea Formers,           Foil,     Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Crawler,                Infantry, Supply,       Scout,     10, 0, 0, IndAuto, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Probe Team,             Speeder,  Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 3, 0, PlaNets, -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Alien Artifact,         Infantry, Artifact,     Psi,       12,10, 0, Disable, -1, 00000001000000000000000000
Mind Worms,             Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        1, 5, 0, CentEmp,  3, 00000000000000000000001000
Isle of the Deep,       Foil,     Psi,          Psi,        7, 8, 4, CentMed, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Locusts of Chiron,      Gravship, Psi,          Psi,        4,10, 0, CentGen, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
Unity Rover,            Speeder,  Gun,          Scout,      3, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Unity Scout Chopper,    Copter,   Gun,          Scout,      4, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000100000
Submarine Transport,    Foil,     Transport,    Scout,      7, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000001000000
Sealurk,                Cruiser,  Psi,          Psi,        6, 6, 0, CentPsi,  4, 00100000000000000001000000
Spore Launcher,         Infantry, Psi,          Psi,        0, 5, 0, Bioadap,  5, 00000000001000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK1,        Infantry, R-Laser,      3-Res,      0,10, 0, Disable,  6, 00010000000000000000000000
Battle Ogre MK2,        Infantry, R-Bolt,       8-Res,      0,15, 0, Disable,  6, 10010000000000000000000000
Scud Missile,           Missile,  Conventional, Scout,      0, 4, 0, Viral,   -1, 01000000100000000000000000000
Fungal Tower,           Gravship, Psi,          Psi,        0, 0, 0, Disable,  1, 00000000001000000100000000
Unity Mining Laser,     Infantry, Laser,        Scout,      0, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Sub Escape Pod,         Foil,     Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00100000000000000001000000
Unity Submersible,      Foil,     Laser,        Scout,     -1, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00100000000000000001000000
Cruiser Probe Ship Mk1, Cruiser,  Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 0, 0, DocInit, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Cruiser Probe Sub Mk2,  Cruiser,  Probe Team,   Psi,       11, 4, 0, MindMac, -1, 00000000000000000000001100
Probe Bug,              Hovertank,Probe Team,   Photon,    11, 4, 0, DocSec,  -1, 00000100000000000000001000
Attack Carrier Mk1,     Cruiser,  Missile,      3-Res,      6, 4, 2, DocAir,  -1, 00000100000000000010100000
Attack Carrier Mk2,     Cruiser,  Shard,        8-Res,      6, 4, 4, Space,   -1, 00100000100010000000010100000
Seawolf Mk1,            Cruiser,  Gatling,      3-Res,      6, 4, 0, Super,   -1, 00100000100000000000001000000
Seawolf Mk2,            Cruiser,  R-Bolt,       8-Res,      6, 4, 0, SentRes, -1, 00100000100010000000001100000
Fighter Escort Mk1,     Needlejet,R-Laser,      3-Res,      1, 4, 0, DocAir,  -1, 00000100000000000000100000
Fighter Escort Mk2,     Needlejet,R-Bolt,       8-Res,      1, 4, 0, SentRes, -1, 00000100010000000000100000
Speeder CP,             Speeder,  Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000000000
Hovertank CP,           Hovertank,Colony Pod,   Psi,        8, 4, 0, MindMac, -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Synth Police,           Infantry, Gun,          Synthmetal, 2, 2, 0, Integ,   -1, 00010000001000000000000000
Probability Police,     Infantry, Laser,        Probability,2, 4, 0, ProbMec, -1, 00010000011000000100100000
Marine Raider,          Infantry, Impact,       Synthmetal, 1, 3, 0, Chaos,   -1, 00000000000000000000001000
Empath Rover,           Speeder,  Impact,       Scout,      1, 3, 0, Chaos,   -1, 00000000000000100000001000
Attack Gravship Mk1,    Gravship, Chaos,        Silksteel,  0, 5, 0, Magnets, -1, 00000100010000000000000000
Attack Gravship Mk2,    Gravship, Shard,        8-Res,      0, 5, 0, Space,   -1, 01000100010000000000000000
Drop Commando Mk1,      Infantry, Chaos,        Silksteel,  0, 5, 0, Magnets, -1, 01000100010000000100011000
Drop Commando Mk2,      Infantry, Shard,        8-Res,      0, 5, 0, Space,   -1, 01000100010000000100011000
Supply Sub,             Foil,     Supply,       Scout,     10, 0, 0, Super,   -1, 00000000100000000001000000
Submarine Former,       Foil,     Formers,      Scout,      9, 4, 0, Super,   -1, 00100000000000000001000000
Hovertank Superformer,  Hovertank,Formers,      8-Res,      9, 4, 0, EcoEng2, -1, 00000000010010000000001001
SP-88,                  Speeder,  Missile,      3-Res,      0, 3, 0, DocAir,  -1, 00000000000000000000101000
Speeder Formers,        Speeder,  Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, Disable, -1, 00000000000000000000001000

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Earthmichael on October 27, 2012, 06:38:08 PM

I really wish SMAC would have gotten some of the attention that went to Civilization.  Even the latest version of Civ to me is lame compared to SMAC, and especially SMAX.  The problem may be that SMAC just requires too much intelligence to play well, something the average gamer may be lacking, or at least the game marketing people seem to think so, that that is what drives new development.  I wish that IP play worked, but I don't think that will happen unless someone does a SMAC 2, and that does not seem likely for now.  I wish there was a way to get the source code to SMAC, so that the community could make an open source project to update SMAC, but I don't see that happening either.  I don't know that company owns the source code now, so I don't know who to even ask about it.

For late game, you need to get out of micromanagement mode.  Automate formers for various tasks, even if they are less efficient at it.  Drag new units to the full path you want them to go; this may keep them busy for 10-30 turns.  Set up patrol routes for aircraft.  Torward the late game, I tend to stop using ships and navel landings, and use groups of terraformers to build land bridges to the last areas of conquest.  This way I can build roads and mag tubes to rush new troups to the front, without the bother of loading and unloading ships.

Yes, you might want more for social settings, but compared to Civ, it is wonderful!  Despite the flaws, I think SMAC is still the most strategic 4x game that exists.  Which of course, is why we have this board, and why there is still a loyal following who play.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: ete on October 27, 2012, 09:59:35 PM

Petek: That feature is cool (I have read the full alphax editing guide), but does not really cover what I'd want. For example, you can only give a single preq tech, so something which I use almost every game like a PoliceClean 1/1 infantry which requires three techs (one for each ability, one for neural grafting) is not accurately reproducible. Plus the reactor issues, fact that it's not editable from within the game/almost all players won't find that feature. Still, I like how many things are editable in alphax, going to add that to the opening post.

Earthmichael: Agreed. And yea, I do automate almost all formers, build land bridges (sometimes using tectonic missiles to speed the job), road/mag tube to the front, give units long paths to travel, and I basically never use transports (or high sea maps, simply because moving units around lategame is a nightmare on those). It still takes a very long time to close out a win on large maps, even once you've got clear superiority. Something I'm testing out is editing alphax to boost research speeds massively and using a small map, see if I can get to the interesting tech on a map small enough to finish in a reasonable length of time.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 27, 2012, 10:55:02 PM

...Have you seen NewAgeOfPower's thread about boosting AI reasearch with special maps?

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: ete on October 28, 2012, 12:00:25 AM

Nope, where is it?

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 28, 2012, 01:24:56 AM

Modding forum; this thread:  http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2487.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=2487.0)

Might want to have a look at Darsan's new thread about what can't be done modding, too.  He's been at it an awful long time...

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: NewAgeOfPower on October 28, 2012, 06:17:03 AM

Preliminary testing shows that with control of 2 'squares', the baseline faction, Peacekeepers will generate one tech/4 turns at Plasma Shard.

Another issue is AI facilities and base location selection, but that I can't solve without being a programmer.

BU called it; indeed, the AIs really swamp you early game, leading quickly to most factions being killed off, even faster than on random maps. I liked how in the classic 'huge map of Alpha Centauri' only one faction would be killed off (by AI) in most games before mid-game.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: ete on October 28, 2012, 12:33:51 PM

Right, that's a slightly different goal from mine, which was to allow normally lategame techs on a small map for everyone (including myself). I find that earlygame transcend on small maps is appropriately challenging for me unless I'm in a good position (can hold them a chokepoints, able to get a key resource terrain place), if I don't do huge amounts of micromanagement. Boosting mid/lategame AI would be cool though.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on December 20, 2012, 11:11:59 PM

Quote from: ete on October 27, 2012, 09:59:35 PM

For example, you can only give a single preq tech, so something which I use almost every game like a PoliceClean 1/1 infantry which requires three techs (one for each ability, one for neural grafting) is not accurately reproducible.

Actually, I think it is...Look at Sea Formers.  By putting an asterisk before the name, I think that tells the game to predesign it even without the declared tech if it can be built normally (and then you just put the tech as "Disable".)

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Green1 on December 20, 2012, 11:18:49 PM

Hmm.. any way to change default units for AI according to personality/goals? I know Civ 4 on up had the AI place weight on builds (promotions Civ 4 and up)  according to goals and personality (from my reading - I am not a modder)

In other words, Cha Dawn should probably have a different unit preference than Sven who would be totally different from Miriam.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on December 20, 2012, 11:21:42 PM

Kyrub's the expert on the AI, but I suspect that the unit preference is already based in part on the faction's natural capabilities.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Green1 on December 20, 2012, 11:35:11 PM

lol.. I think we chased both Kyrub and Scient into hiding. Maybe BU and I need to get into a car and kidnap both of them. Then, we could lock them in a room with a computer. Shove some food ever so often and do not let them go until AC2, CFC, and the Apolyton guys get all the stuff they want :)

That's right. No daylight till we get AI boreholes and 14 factions! Now back to your room stocked with energy drinks and get coding!

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on December 21, 2012, 12:16:06 AM

Quote from: Green1 on December 20, 2012, 11:35:11 PM

lol.. I think we chased both Kyrub and Scient into hiding. Maybe BU and I need to get into a car and kidnap both of them. Then, we could lock them in a room with a computer. Shove some food ever so often and do not let them go until AC2, CFC, and the Apolyton guys get all the stuff they want :)

That's right. No daylight till we get AI boreholes and 14 factions! Now back to your room stocked with energy drinks and get coding!

Actually, rather than AI boreholes, I'd rather see mass boreholes become a bad idea (at least until the late game, where they're not so powerful.)

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 21, 2012, 12:40:23 AM

...If we're gonna kidnap them, we ought to hold a fundraiser so we can pay them well when they're done.  I'm just sayin'...

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:36:17 AM

Quote from: BUncle on December 21, 2012, 12:40:23 AM

...If we're gonna kidnap them, we ought to hold a fundraiser so we can pay them well when they're done.  I'm just sayin'...

Meh. I was going to pay them in cheap whores and drugs :) If they are addicted to crack, we can control them better.

I would at least get the cheap [prostitute] to dress like a gamer nerd girl and shower.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 21, 2012, 02:12:54 AM

Not that AC2 or its staff condone kidnapping or related felonies -

Quote from: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:36:17 AM

I would at least get the cheap [prostitute] to dress like a gamer nerd girl and shower.

-but Slave Leia, or Marta, the crazy green girl from ST Whom Gods Destroy.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 02:16:14 AM

In fact: being mine and BU's AC2 code team has it's advantages:

But, more seriously. Maybe there does need to be incentive for coders. Only problem is, with at least monetary things is that I do not think anyone is going to gripe about hacking and modding an old game. I do think eyebrows would perk up if a person was making money off of it.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 21, 2012, 02:42:46 AM

Motivation is motivation...

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on December 21, 2012, 04:33:46 AM

Quote from: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 02:16:14 AM

In fact: being mine and BU's AC2 code team has it's advantages:

But, more seriously. Maybe there does need to be incentive for coders. Only problem is, with at least monetary things is that I do not think anyone is going to gripe about hacking and modding an old game. I do think eyebrows would perk up if a person was making money off of it.

The incentive I'm aiming for is the ability to produce a SMAX that is more balanced and does not reward certain sorts of ugly or cheesy gameplay.

I believe we also discussed a special badge, and of course bonus ECs are a nice bonus as well.  But I'd agree that paying real-life money is probably a bad idea until we can get a lawyer to figure out how to do so without causing problems.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Kilkakon on December 21, 2012, 03:30:25 PM

That's easy! You don't pay them for working, you just get them to join an "exe modders club", which requires a complete exe mod to join, and then enjoy the benefits, such as the new member's raffle, with only one ticket.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 21, 2012, 03:40:05 PM

I was thinking more paying them off so Green doesn't go to jail for kidnapping, but that works, too...

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Yitzi on December 21, 2012, 04:00:04 PM

Quote from: Kilkakon on December 21, 2012, 03:30:25 PM

That's easy! You don't pay them for working, you just get them to join an "exe modders club", which requires a complete exe mod to join, and then enjoy the benefits, such as the new member's raffle, with only one ticket.

I'd still advise that the first expenditure be for a lawyer to make sure that whatever you're doing isn't going to run into legal problems.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: gwillybj on January 06, 2013, 04:21:47 PM

Quote from: ete on October 27, 2012, 12:56:12 PM

... too addictive. Too many times I've finished a game and realised it's light outside.

You're not playing it right. You are when you realize it's light outside again. :o

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: JarlWolf on January 13, 2013, 05:36:08 AM

Quote from: gwillybj on January 06, 2013, 04:21:47 PM

Quote from: ete on October 27, 2012, 12:56:12 PM

... too addictive. Too many times I've finished a game and realised it's light outside.

You're not playing it right. You are when you realize it's light outside again. :o

You're both wrong. You are when you collapse of exhaustion due to sleep deprivation.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: gwillybj on January 13, 2013, 04:23:17 PM

Quote from: Green1 on December 21, 2012, 01:36:17 AM

...drugs :) If they are addicted to crack, we can control them better.

There is an extract from the nectar of the fungus that is at least as effective and non-lethal. That's why sometimes the razorbeaks fly upside-down.

Title: Re: Thoughts on SMAX
Post by: Green1 on January 17, 2013, 07:51:28 PM

I am not sure, but I think the better MMOs and 4x's are almost like crack.

There have been times in the past that I have literally showed up to work places with 2 hours sleep. All because I wanted to show Miriam a thing or two or got too involved with healing teamates in my party on the battleground. It is always something.

Right now, it is being a space miner preparing to go to war for a space empire in Eve.

But for AC - What is amazing is a decade old game can do that. Wow.