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Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Rusty Edge on June 09, 2022, 05:25:06 AM

Title: Politics 2022
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 09, 2022, 05:25:06 AM
I guess it's time for a new thread now that we're halfway through the Calander year.

I looked up the old thread because while I claimed there that the GOP doesn't stand for anything anymore, that they were only oppositional, I feel I was wrong.

Today's GOP is still pro-capital punishment and pro-military style weapons (semi-automatics rifles and pistols with detachable magazines and barrel cooling features.)  They may think they are pro-life, but they are really more anti-abortion and anti-vaccine.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on June 09, 2022, 07:12:00 AM
I definitely can't link a pro-life point of view with an anti-vaacine one.
To me that just sound like riding on a popular opinion platform.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Elok on June 10, 2022, 02:48:43 AM
The whole "not pro-life" thing isn't terribly meaningful.  Pro-life refers specifically to one side of the abortion debate and nobody ever claimed that the label, by itself, says anything outside the context of abortion.  Compare the term "pro-choice" and ask how many of the people who employ it support positions of maximum individual freedom and autonomy outside the context of abortion.  Do they support an individual's choice to own a firearm?  School choice?  A merchant or artisan's choice not to provide services for gay weddings?  Maximal deregulation of all industries?  In most cases, probably not, and they have reasons for all those stances, and they all fit together into a more or less coherent worldview, but just saying, "Aha!  You support paternalism in this or that respect, so you're not really in favor of 'choice' at all!" will earn you some rolled eyes and possibly a rude gesture.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 10, 2022, 03:57:53 AM
The whole "not pro-life" thing isn't terribly meaningful.  Pro-life refers specifically to one side of the abortion debate and nobody ever claimed that the label, by itself, says anything outside the context of abortion.  Compare the term "pro-choice" and ask how many of the people who employ it support positions of maximum individual freedom and autonomy outside the context of abortion.  Do they support an individual's choice to own a firearm?  School choice?  A merchant or artisan's choice not to provide services for gay weddings?  Maximal deregulation of all industries?  In most cases, probably not, and they have reasons for all those stances, and they all fit together into a more or less coherent worldview, but just saying, "Aha!  You support paternalism in this or that respect, so you're not really in favor of 'choice' at all!" will earn you some rolled eyes and possibly a rude gesture.
Turnabout is fair, and I accept your point that I'm increasing isolated politically.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on June 11, 2022, 07:57:44 PM
You're goin' to be an Independent, Rusty?  :o
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on June 26, 2022, 09:31:16 AM
So, with Roe vs Wade overturned in the USA, and a number of States intending to make practicing and/or participating in abortion a criminal act, I wonder what it meant for those people crossing State borders into those that may make their law such.
For instance, a medical practionioner of an abortion clinic in California goin' vacationing in Missouri. Could such a person then be arrested, tried, and convicted for actions done in another State?
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Elok on June 26, 2022, 12:34:35 PM
They could try, but it wouldn't stick.  State laws don't have jurisdiction outside their own borders.  Pretty sure that's firmly established.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Trenacker on June 26, 2022, 04:18:13 PM
Modern conservatism is a desperate rear-guard action to preserve the dignity of its members. It is entirely about protecting them from the buffet of uncertainty and discomfort. Suspicious of vaccines because you have been taught to view experts as condescending and unprincipled? You shouldn’t have to take them. Distressed by the idea that you might have to change long-standing assumptions about personhood? The law can force LGBTQ+ persons back out of sight. Furious that some corporations disagree with you? We’ll use the power of government to punish them. Alarmed that the new narratives about social justice make your unreflective jingoism seem ignorant at best? We’ll label it Communism and purge it from our schools. Speaking of which, are you jealous of competition with teachers over influence over your kids? We’ll help you drastically limit what is said in the classroom.

Fox News carefully curates the information its viewers receive to avoid troublesome truths that might prompt self-reflection, which is emotionally uncomfortable. Conservative politicians rarely govern these days. Instead, they perform acts of social validation, glorifying the in-group and excoriating the out-groups. To the uninitiated, this looks and sounds like buffoonery, but conservatives are just grateful to be out of the firing line and assured they needn’t change a single thing. That’s the most powerful act of validation that can occur between two people: reassuring someone that they are perfect just as they are. And [Sleezebag] was uniquely willing to do that in a way his predecessors weren’t. John McCain was prepared to call out the fringe. Even figures like Ted Cruz articulated what they thought was an intellectual, values-based conservatism that, in theory, demanded some consistency from its adherents. Donald [Sleezebag] realized that karaoke is less about knowing lyrics and more about engaging the crowd, even with nonsense.

The Pro-Life movement is about feeling. That dopamine hit you get when you think you’ve done something really meaningful. Saved the life of a child. Sent a deserved moral signal to people with inferior self-discipline. The people who support abortion restrictions focus on healthy children only. Pro-Life attitudes correlate strongly with age. These are people who had children already and can’t have them any longer—i.e., people who won’t be confronted by the medical consequences of their own position. For them, Pro-Life advocacy is an easy dunk, a no-cost way to reassure themselves they are good people. It’s right there in the name. Who doesn’t believe in life? The logical progression for the Pro-Life Movement is to ban all non-procreative sexual activity outside the traditional marriage contract because it destroys “the potential for life,” something I’m not sure most of Pro-Life America has caught onto yet.

Brett Kavanaugh is on-record with his latest concurrence arguing that states cannot constitutionally prevent people going to abortion havens. He’s either lying or the point is moot. As soon as November, a Republican Congress will move to outlaw abortion nationally. The recent celebration of the supposed solution of federalizing abortion is purely a fig leaf. This is one of those “all or nothing” propositions. The Pro-Life position isn’t fungible. Either you believe abortion is murder, or you don’t. Most Americans believe that, too. Ask the Average Joe when happened on Friday and they’ll tell you, “They overturned Roe v Wade,” which refers to the right to abortion.

The GOP is moving beyond the traditional understanding of how to enforce state law. Texas recently hit upon the idea of enlisting civil law to replace state power where lawsuits would result. Several states, including Missouri, are already formulating laws to punish people who use abortion havens in other states. And the dominant thinking on the Supreme Court is clearly that abortion is murder, which Scalia more or less said outright when he insisted that abortion is a unique issue involving the potential for life.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on June 28, 2022, 10:20:42 PM
They could try, but it wouldn't stick.  State laws don't have jurisdiction outside their own borders.  Pretty sure that's firmly established.


If that's the case, I wonder how a State Government implementing such laws thinks how it can prosecute women (and their 'assistants') who would go 'clinic-shopping' outside their own state.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on June 28, 2022, 10:21:56 PM
.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Trenacker on July 04, 2022, 03:52:07 PM
They could try, but it wouldn't stick.  State laws don't have jurisdiction outside their own borders.  Pretty sure that's firmly established.


If that's the case, I wonder how a State Government implementing such laws thinks how it can prosecute women (and their 'assistants') who would go 'clinic-shopping' outside their own state.


I think, at first, the focus would be on the medical professionals providing abortion care. Taking a shot in the dark, in terms of "remedies" that Pro-Life states could apply, I'd guess they'd go after things like admitting privileges, licensure, and reciprocity. At the more extreme end of the spectrum, you get warrants enforceable within that state exclusively, or by sympathetic law enforcement in other states. Can you imagine what conservative sheriffs might do in liberal states?

On the civil side of the spectrum, lawsuits are increasingly the tool of choice. Texas found a way to privatize enforcement of morality laws with their recent abortion ban, and I fear this Supreme Court would uphold it.

But I do think, eventually, that the enforcement will fall on women, because at some point, the people who prioritize the unborn above all else are going to feel like they're losing the battle, and that will cause them to accept sterner measures. Probably, to avoid the appearance of a police state, they will try to punish rather than prevent.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 15, 2022, 03:01:37 AM
You're goin' to be an Independent, Rusty?  :o

Maybe I mostly have been all of my voting life without realizing it. I've never voted, or contributed $ to re-elect a president. I've been disillusioned with the number of Libertarians who cheered [Sleezebag]'s chaos and turned a blind eye to his authoritarianism. Meanwhile they were demanding ideological perfection from their own candidates.

Regardless, I've started labeling myself as an independent in surveys and polls this year.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on July 15, 2022, 10:14:52 AM
You're goin' to be an Independent, Rusty?  :o

I've never voted, or contributed $ to re-elect a president.


That's (predominantly) out of the citizens' hands here. IIRC, political parties elected in Parliament receive donations from the State respective to the percentage of votes they received in the last ballot. Private citizen gifts are of course possible, but personally I never saw the point of that.

Regardless, I've started labeling myself as an independent in surveys and polls this year.


Any particular reason you wish to participate in such surveys and polls?
My 'political color' isn't something I entrust to such semi-anonymous entities.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 25, 2022, 01:31:44 AM
I would mention that I don't pay attention to the news about the Nazi Wednesday hearings - because the Pig didn't spend that night in custody over just what I saw on TV, AT LEAST guilty-as-hell of inciting a riot.  I STAY in a rage, if I think about it, that no public official who betrayed their trust that day is even indited.  It's fine that the thugs who carried it out are slowly being processed into prison, where they most certainly belong, but probably over a hundred elected-and-otherwise public officials are in no serious danger of ever being arrested, at least for that.  That's who Democracy, the Constitution and the American Way need to see punished a year ago.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on July 26, 2022, 09:58:00 AM
Is there a law in the US that an official in office can't be prosecuted as long as he stays in office?
Because I reckon a number of those elected officials are still in Congress or Senate or whatever.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 26, 2022, 12:12:20 PM
They have a fairly high level of legal protection for acts in office that are part of the job.  They have to.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on July 29, 2022, 04:53:34 PM
The other day I read in the news that a rather recent political party/project called "Forward" is gaining momentum in the USA? Some sort of centrist party where appearantly both Democrats and Republicans can find common ground? An amalgam of conservative Democrats and progressive Republicans?
Sounds like a weird  combination to me.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 29, 2022, 04:59:13 PM
I saw a headline yesterday - sounds like an attempt at sane Republicans.  Don't hold your breath waiting for it to catch on, and centrists are not what's needed in the first place; the Democrats have that more than covered already.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 12, 2022, 08:49:25 PM
You're goin' to be an Independent, Rusty?  :o

I've never voted, or contributed $ to re-elect a president.


That's (predominantly) out of the citizens' hands here. IIRC, political parties elected in Parliament receive donations from the State respective to the percentage of votes they received in the last ballot. Private citizen gifts are of course possible, but personally I never saw the point of that.

Regardless, I've started labeling myself as an independent in surveys and polls this year.


Any particular reason you wish to participate in such surveys and polls?
My 'political color' isn't something I entrust to such semi-anonymous entities.

Probably the same reason I participate in political discusions on forums - to vent, mostly, but I do find it all fascinating.

That said, you are more likely to be likely to be "polled" with the intent of persuading you by the wording of the questions or adding you to a donor's or volunteers list based on your answers. As it happens, I happen to live in what is probably the key county in a swing state, so sometimes candidates and political action committees actually care what I think.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 12, 2022, 09:01:00 PM
Is there a law in the US that an official in office can't be prosecuted as long as he stays in office?
Because I reckon a number of those elected officials are still in Congress or Senate or whatever.

It only applies to the president, to keep him from being tied up in murder trials for everything the USA does, or people think it does. The same reason we don't recognize the authority of the World Court.

As for the rest of them, I quite agree they should be called to account and held responsible. But, because of free speech provisions, and the fact that the Republicans are likely to be petty and vindictive towards the FBI or prosecutors that dare to call them out, and the unlikeliness of getting an entire jury to convict in a polarized environment- they're being pretty cautious. I expect most of them will get away with what they did, but it isn't over yet.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Geo on August 13, 2022, 06:35:58 PM
That said, you are more likely to be likely to be "polled" with the intent of persuading you by the wording of the questions or adding you to a donor's or volunteers list based on your answers. As it happens, I happen to live in what is probably the key county in a swing state, so sometimes candidates and political action committees actually care what I think.



Would you say it is likely the world has to thank you and your county for Joe Biden?  ;cute
Do you expect an influx of new 'Republican' neighbours in the next years?




Is there a law in the US that an official in office can't be prosecuted as long as he stays in office?
Because I reckon a number of those elected officials are still in Congress or Senate or whatever.


It only applies to the president, to keep him from being tied up in murder trials for everything the USA does, or people think it does. The same reason we don't recognize the authority of the World Court.

As for the rest of them, I quite agree they should be called to account and held responsible. But, because of free speech provisions, and the fact that the Republicans are likely to be petty and vindictive towards the FBI or prosecutors that dare to call them out, and the unlikeliness of getting an entire jury to convict in a polarized environment- they're being pretty cautious. I expect most of them will get away with what they did, but it isn't over yet.



To get back at the president's immunity. I do remember the time Belgian legislation for crimes against humanity (or war crimes) was toned down due to pressure of the United States (it was expanded to include internationally committed atrocities).
At the time, quite soon after it was approved by Parliament and implemented, interest groups for at least the Palestinians started judiciary cases. I guess it was only a matter of time before the head of a certain country would be filed against too. And with NATO HQ and pretty much all the important councils and meetings happening in Brussels, this was simply unacceptable for international leadership.
Title: Re: Politics 2022
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 01, 2022, 11:32:25 PM
"Would you say it is likely the world has to thank you and your county for Joe Biden?  ;cute
Do you expect an influx of new 'Republican' neighbours in the next years?"

I'd say they should thank my wife. Life-long Republican and Independent suburban women were the demographic that turned against You Know Who and cost him this state, and probably some others such as Pennsylvania and Virginia.

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