Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Trenacker on July 05, 2020, 07:16:51 PM

Title: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Trenacker on July 05, 2020, 07:16:51 PM
Conceptually, what new additions can be added to the Technology Tree? I'm neither a scientist nor a futurist, so I'd appreciate fresh perspectives.

SMAC/X supplied the following "baseline" technologies, also known as Level 1 technologies:


Borrowing some formatting from Nethog's old SMAX Tech Tree (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/8f/ba/7a8fbaf3b5914b9654f7e3aa80ef25fe.gif), I offer the following Level 0 technologies:
















Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 06, 2020, 02:24:00 AM
I see that nobody else has taken a crack at this yet.  I will try, for some of it, if not all.  I've posted a lot today and feel that much of what I've said in another thread, is worth someone's time to digest, before moving on to yet more here.

I don't know if we can actually discuss game design, Trenacker.  If we can't, I'm going to be using the Report button quickly, and that's going to be the end of it for me.  I'm not interested in hearing why my point of view stems from something other than my intellectual commitment to the materials of this game.  I've been at these various categorizations for 2+ years and know more about categorizing them into an actual working playable game than anyone does.  Short of the original makers of the game, and even then, I wonder if I've now put more time into some things than they did.

So I hope with this preamble, we can avoid further incivility and actually do the intellectual work.  Writing is hard work and I thoroughly believe in "killing your darlings".  I don't apologize for that, as not all ideas have equal merit.  Killing things off is where quality actually comes from.  If you think I'm harsh as to how I rate things, you should see r/4Xgaming.  I always approach things according to commercial viability in front of a critical audience.  I can't assume they'll "see it my way".  Winning them over, "securing audience buy-in", is pretty much The Job.

"Doctrine: Whatever".  There is a risk in overloading this, in becoming repetitive and boring.  The original game has 5.  Is it now to be 8 ?  Or will the unnamed ones be dropped?

"Offense vs. Defense" may not be interesting distinctions from a screenplay "crafting of dialogue / lines / hooks" point of view.  Are they interesting words ?  Personally I say no, they are not.  And as such, they do not reflect the writing sensibility of the original game, which was paying attention to the nuances of writerliness for at least 4 of them.  I don't think "Doctrine: Air Power" is anything special, it's perfunctory, but the other 4 show that they put some thought into why they chose those words.

Are Offense and Defense interesting concepts?  I say they are not, as military operations generally do have both offense and defense.  Exceptions might be, massed tank formations ala Patton and Rommel in WW II, which was an interesting evolution compared to the tank-and-infantry formations of previous wars.  And the building of the Maginot Line which 1) didn't work, or 2) did exactly what it was supposed to do, at the cost of the Germans simply going around it.

"Doctrine: Rule" is more interesting to contemplate, although I do wonder if it's straying too far from military doctrine.  Meanwhile, we already have "Doctrine: Loyalty".  Why rewrite, as opposed to repurpose?  The voice acting is a quote from Machiaveli, it's straight up about how you rule.  I had it giving Fundamentalist / Extremist for awhile.  Now I've got it as the thing that gives you a Command Center.  The hand wave is that loyalty is how you make your command structure and build elan in the corps.  I don't think I'm wrong in that, but I do know that I'm repurposing materials and not composing from scratch.  So the tailoring can be a little off.

This is almost enough for now, to see if we can manage to discuss.  Since the above is all under the bailiwick of "military concepts", I will take on "C4I".  All I can say to that is, wat ?  A Three Letter Acronym (technically alphanumeric) doesn't start out meaning anything to anybody.  It's a bad choice.  For guidance on this point, consider "the warrior's bland acronym, MMI" in the game's lore.  Lal teaches us that it means something.  We wouldn't know it without his teaching, and we wouldn't care about it absent his voice acting.  And don't assume a game can carry more than a very few specially designated acronyms.  Done once, it makes an authorial point.  Done several times, it becomes a lot of "...wat?"

And it would certainly help your description to say what "C4I" stands for.  I have no idea.  I'm guessing it's a base designation on a hill somewhere, a command post.  Because I'm a good guesser, like maybe I saw it on a map of Dien Bien Phu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dien_Bien_Phu) or something once.

BTW on the further subject of acronyms, a lot of people on r/4Xgaming don't know what SMAC or SMACX stand for.  Even though I've been announcing my mod every month for a long time, and I'm hardly the only SMAC adherent in evidence in casual conversation.  Someone called this problem to my attention, and got me to spell out the entire "Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri with Alien Crossfire expansion pack" at the top of my mod release announcements.  Knowing this, if I were to do things from scratch, I would not call my mod "SMACX AI Growth mod".  I didn't know any better.  Now, having established this brand identity over a long period of time, I'm not going to change it.  It's worth more as a web search term now.  Per the discussion, my user tag on r/4Xgaming got changed from "modder" to "SMAC modder" to "Alpha Centauri modder", by the mods.

In other words, TLA consider Bad.

Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 06, 2020, 03:41:11 AM
I'm considering looking to see if I can remove the report button - it's for staff who don't bother to read everything.

Waste my time using it for something petty at your own peril.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 06, 2020, 05:05:07 AM
Not going to be "petty", but given history, not going to sign up for slide-along scenarios resulting in "it's my fault" either.  Happy to know that a report button actually does nothing.  I've never previously used it on this forum ever, so I wouldn't have known.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Trenacker on July 06, 2020, 11:47:19 PM
Quote from: bvanevery
Writing is hard work and I thoroughly believe in "killing your darlings".  I don't apologize for that, as not all ideas have equal merit.  Killing things off is where quality actually comes from.  If you think I'm harsh as to how I rate things, you should see r/4Xgaming.  I always approach things according to commercial viability in front of a critical audience.  I can't assume they'll "see it my way".  Winning them over, "securing audience buy-in", is pretty much The Job.
I agree, to a point. Seeking new input does not always mean agreeing with it.

Quote from: bvanevery
"Doctrine: Whatever".  There is a risk in overloading this, in becoming repetitive and boring.  The original game has 5.  Is it now to be 8 ?  Or will the unnamed ones be dropped?
Absolutely, there’s a chance for overloading the player.

Quote from: bvanevery
"Offense vs. Defense" may not be interesting distinctions from a screenplay "crafting of dialogue / lines / hooks" point of view.  Are they interesting words ?  Personally I say no, they are not.  And as such, they do not reflect the writing sensibility of the original game, which was paying attention to the nuances of writerliness for at least 4 of them.  I don't think "Doctrine: Air Power" is anything special, it's perfunctory, but the other 4 show that they put some thought into why they chose those words.

Are Offense and Defense interesting concepts?  I say they are not, as military operations generally do have both offense and defense.  Exceptions might be, massed tank formations ala Patton and Rommel in WW II, which was an interesting evolution compared to the tank-and-infantry formations of previous wars.  And the building of the Maginot Line which 1) didn't work, or 2) did exactly what it was supposed to do, at the cost of the Germans simply going around it.

I think this is sound advice. I do like the simplicity of the two ideas, even while I agree strongly with your observation that offense and defense are not generally undertaken apart from each other. Possibly a better approach would be: “Doctrine: Aggression” and “Doctrine: Attrition.”

That said, I almost think it is more interesting to go with words that a general rather than words that are more precise because I feel that there is kind of a transparent and narratively troubling “techno-vibe” that happens when one veers toward “Doctrine: Bleed” or “Doctrine: Fortify.” It feels like I’m trying too hard to be cool. Whereas Doctrine: Offense and Doctrine: Defense are both immediately intuitive. Players can ask themselves, “How do I usually approach combat?” Is this clear?

Quote from: bvanevery
"Doctrine: Rule" is more interesting to contemplate, although I do wonder if it's straying too far from military doctrine.  Meanwhile, we already have "Doctrine: Loyalty".  Why rewrite, as opposed to repurpose?  The voice acting is a quote from Machiaveli, it's straight up about how you rule.  I had it giving Fundamentalist / Extremist for awhile.  Now I've got it as the thing that gives you a Command Center.  The hand wave is that loyalty is how you make your command structure and build elan in the corps.  I don't think I'm wrong in that, but I do know that I'm repurposing materials and not composing from scratch.  So the tailoring can be a little off.

I never understood Doctrine: Loyalty. Some of the Datalinks entries that accompanies the Techs were disappointing to me, and this was one of them. If I remember correctly, the entry for this tech in particular left me feeling like I’d read words with no meaning. But to me, loyalty evokes a sense of espirit de corps—attracting people to follow you. Doctrine: Rule seems more iron-fisted. Is it absolutely possible to see loyalty in a more sinister light? Yes. I just didn’t go there myself.

Quote from: bvanevery
This is almost enough for now, to see if we can manage to discuss.  Since the above is all under the bailiwick of "military concepts", I will take on "C4I".  All I can say to that is, wat ?  A Three Letter Acronym (technically alphanumeric) doesn't start out meaning anything to anybody.  It's a bad choice.  For guidance on this point, consider "the warrior's bland acronym, MMI" in the game's lore.  Lal teaches us that it means something.  We wouldn't know it without his teaching, and we wouldn't care about it absent his voice acting.  And don't assume a game can carry more than a very few specially designated acronyms.  Done once, it makes an authorial point.  Done several times, it becomes a lot of "...wat?"

Yes. C4I is jargon meaning command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence (C4I). Point well taken.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Nexii on July 07, 2020, 09:33:17 PM
I think the game has enough techs, but some of the less sensical ones could be chopped or reimagined. The last third of the tree is the most incoherent for me. I suppose they were going for an exotic future feel but in a lot of spaces I felt like the lore didn't do much to fill in the gaps. Most of the ones Tim identified I'd agree with.

I suppose one direction could be to chop some of the late and add early. I kind of prefer the direction they attempted of not having to discover the basics so much. I suppose for gameplay reasons a lot of SEs had to be rediscovered, though it seemed a bit strange that the new colonists would have to research to set up a democratic, theocratic, or authoritarian government. Economics and values, maybe those would take some time to develop. Chiron has different resources from Earth and finding a new value system seems to make sense, that is why Earth failed in the story.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 07, 2020, 10:09:12 PM
Possibly a better approach would be: “Doctrine: Aggression” and “Doctrine: Attrition.”

It's a verbal improvement.  I don't know if these have categorical game mechanical relevance though.  It may just be trying to cut up the pie too many ways.

Quote
That said, I almost think it is more interesting to go with words that a general rather than words that are more precise because I feel that there is kind of a transparent and narratively troubling “techno-vibe” that happens when one veers toward “Doctrine: Bleed” or “Doctrine: Fortify.” It feels like I’m trying too hard to be cool. Whereas Doctrine: Offense and Doctrine: Defense are both immediately intuitive. Players can ask themselves, “How do I usually approach combat?” Is this clear?

I think a logical conclusion to be had, is probably that "Less Is More" and that the number of top level categories for player cognition shouldn't sprawl.  You can try too hard by having too many Doctrine names, or by having too "rad" names.

Why is Mobility not offense?  Particularly wrt the game's actual combat mechanics.

I don't know that defense, i.e. armor in the game's actual combat mechanical terms, is worth calling out with its own category.  I put armor and weapons in Conquer and call it done.  But if one convinces oneself to specially call out armor, it may be wise to do so without seeking dichotomy with anything else.  For instance, "Doctrine: Stability".  That's how Montgomery fought in WW II, pretty much the opposite strategy from Patton.  He intended to never give Rommel the chance to do anything tricky.  I'm not recommending D:S, but it does reflect the manner of thought of the original game categories.

Quote
I never understood Doctrine: Loyalty. Some of the Datalinks entries that accompanies the Techs were disappointing to me, and this was one of them. If I remember correctly, the entry for this tech in particular left me feeling like I’d read words with no meaning. But to me, loyalty evokes a sense of espirit de corps—attracting people to follow you.

Chairman Yang starts with it, so it's part of his narrative.  It gives Police State.  He can also build the Command Nexus immediately.  He also gets a Perimeter Defense that he doesn't need.  I didn't find these things a great fit to task either.  Yang doesn't instill loyalty, he instills obedience and fear.  He's Stalinist, totalitarian.

I moved Police State to Planetary Networks.  I eventually also made this the way you get Probe Teams.  My idea is that a police state is a total surveillance state.  Big Brother is watching you.

I moved Fundamentalist to Doctrine: Loyalty.  Religious worshippers and cultists are loyal to a fault!  The Machiavelli quote is a bit off, as it implies a deep cynicism about how religions and cults get their job done.  But I'm not afraid at poking questions about religious behavior.  Evangelical megachurch leaders getting caught with literally their pants down, is pretty much the thing to do here in the lil' ole South!  That's not fair to Miriam's characterization but eh, whatever.  I'm not going to remove a kewl Machiavelli quote from the game, and Doctrine: Loyalty is too good a mantra to rename it.

Machiavelli just really didn't describe religious belief and obedience, nor Stalinist obedience.  Nor is it democratic.  It doesn't fit an actual governance model in this game.  It's still cool to hear some Machiavelli though.  I heard it and thought, hey, I remember that guy who was my enemy back in high school, read "The Prince" as his choice for AP English class.  Then did his little report.  Me?  I did Crome Yellow, which had similarities to Brave New World.  I still haven't managed to read The Prince, although I did get to the point of a digital download one time.  I've made it farther through Mein Kampf, but the anti-semitism gets old.

I took the Command Nexus out of Yang's narrative entirely.  Sure I get that the authors wanted to talk about Yang "commanding" stuff, but the actual Secret Project is about military command.  That's Santiago's area.  Yes maybe Yang can or should be viewed as a military heavy in the original game, but Santiago is the better military heavy and the one you'd actually expect to work out a better command structure.  What does Yang's style of command really do?  Demoralize troops, not make them have better elan.  Yang is all quantity and slave driving, not quality of fighting spirit.  Santiago's area.

And I can hardly feel bad about such a decision, when the SP video for Command Nexus has Santiago voicing it.  They put this thing in the wrong place.  They probably didn't want to make it too easy for her to kick ass at the beginning of the game.

No do I, so like all other SPs, it's not available until Tier 3.  The specific tech has bopped around a lot, but eventually it has landed on Polymorphic Software.  I've been doing "probe team oriented" stuff with that, i.e. it gives Polymorphic Encryption.  In other words, a military command nexus is a bit cyber.  It's not my greatest repurposing but it's ok.  Gotta do something with the iron butterfly sometime.

Also forgot, nowadays I don't even have Fundamentalist or Extremist anymore.  I have Theocratic, and it just comes from Social Psych.  Very basic.  Doctrine: Loyalty gives the Command Center.  So I'm hand-waving about command, like the original game did.  It's not a perfect fit.  Machiavelli wasn't talking about military command or loyalty.  But whaddya gonna do?  It turns out he's kinda off-topic.  Whatever!

I could go back to giving Command Center with Doctrine: Mobility.  If I thought Doctrine: Loyalty was better suited to some other task.  I can't think of one right now.

Quote
Doctrine: Rule seems more iron-fisted.

Sure, but it's just not a military doctrine.  Doesn't fit, overloads the Doctrine category.  Verbally it's not different from Doctrine: Bleed.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 07, 2020, 10:36:54 PM
I suppose one direction could be to chop some of the late and add early.

Late game weapons, armors, facilities, and abilities all still have to go somewhere though.  Unless one intends to drop them entirely as not interesting.  I've been pretty reticent about "hard" removing content from the game.  Instead I've generally "soft" removed by pushing a gewgaw so late, that it isn't relevant to victory by the time you get it.

My one exception has been the Copter chassis, which has been hard removed.  Overwhelming numbers of modders over the years have agreed with this idea.  The funny thing is, with my mega-expensive weapons nowadays, I wonder if I could reintroduce it, just at an unusably expensive price point?

Anyways I've "leaned" my tree plenty of times, and repurposed some techs where I could.  But you get to a point where the weapons + armors form a "trunk" through the tree.  Eventually you don't have much to cut out and repurpose, absent getting rid of gewgaws entirely.

Also the fixed narratives don't always fit earlier parts of the game.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Trenacker on July 08, 2020, 12:34:01 AM
Quote from: bvanevery
Why is Mobility not offense?  Particularly wrt the game's actual combat mechanics.

That’s a good point. It could easily be repurposed. Perhaps Flexibility grants chassis types, while Mobility does something else entirely…

Quote from: bvanevery
I don't know that defense, i.e. armor in the game's actual combat mechanical terms, is worth calling out with its own category.  I put armor and weapons in Conquer and call it done.  But if one convinces oneself to specially call out armor, it may be wise to do so without seeking dichotomy with anything else.  For instance, "Doctrine: Stability".  That's how Montgomery fought in WW II, pretty much the opposite strategy from Patton.  He intended to never give Rommel the chance to do anything tricky.  I'm not recommending D:S, but it does reflect the manner of thought of the original game categories.

Yes, Doctrine: Stability is quite interesting! Better than: “Doctrine: Defense.”

As I said, my worry is that doctrines with unsimplistic names become almost impervious to first-glance understanding, which is an admirable goal.
Quote from: bvanevery
Chairman Yang starts with it, so it's part of his narrative.  It gives Police State.  He can also build the Command Nexus immediately.  He also gets a Perimeter Defense that he doesn't need.  I didn't find these things a great fit to task either.  Yang doesn't instill loyalty, he instills obedience and fear.  He's Stalinist, totalitarian.

I think Yang can be played as a very, very problematic paternalistic figure, in the darkest sense of the term. I envisioned disciples of Yang’s that were somewhat higher in the faction hierarchy who would try to convince themselves that he was really quite wise. I have to assume that Doctrine: Loyalty tied into the concept of a personality cult.

I remember that the same teacher that required our reading Machiavelli pointed out to us that he begins the book by cautioning every Prince that he will need two things: these principles, and a good deal of luck (timing). Nobody ever remembers that second part; they prefer to take the book as a kind of blueprint for (supposedly) principle-based action that, by itself, can result in excellent rule.

Quote from: bvanevery
My one exception has been the Copter chassis, which has been hard removed.  Overwhelming numbers of modders over the years have agreed with this idea.  The funny thing is, with my mega-expensive weapons nowadays, I wonder if I could reintroduce it, just at an unusably expensive price point?

Is it just that you think that in-game ‘copters were functionally useless?
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 08, 2020, 07:32:00 AM
No, 'copters are clearly overpowered.  They get as many shots as they have moves.  Put a big gun on them relative to enemy defense, and you've pretty much ended the game.  Chaos Copter is a game ender.

Even Elite hovertanks, I have some qualms about.  4 attacks is an awful lot.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Nexii on July 08, 2020, 05:13:39 PM
Even if copters just chop one unit they are tactically superior to needlejets. Being able to return to base same turn doubles their effectiveness

Copters can be balanced. Mostly it's that their movement speed was made unrealistically good. A helicopter is not the same speed as an aircraft, not even close. ~4 base move speed is probably about where they should be. It's kind of strange they gave them the same move when in Civ2 there was a huge difference

Chopping multiple units with choppers or tanks, well, that's another problem where armor is too low relative to weapons. You see it a lot in the base tech tree because you tend to get Chaos, Fusion, Shard all before Silksteel due to their proximity to Fusion Reactor.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 10, 2020, 03:13:45 AM
When I tried slower choppers, it didn't work.  Their extremely limited range made it so I wouldn't build them.  So eventually I got rid of them entirely.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: EmpathCrawler on July 10, 2020, 03:41:14 AM
I like that Morgan quote about leadership. You got his voice.


Your Purelake doesn't make much sense. A hot lake the size of Australia that's 1 meter deep? I think it would all rapidly evaporate into a salt flat, like the Aral Sea. Plus you have the canon Freshwater Sea to play around with. I know if I land near that I try to exploit it ASAP.


How about "Frontier Medicine"?
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 10, 2020, 03:46:22 AM
Sure you got the right thread?  I don't remember any of this.  Although there's a Freshwater Sea in the game, I think it's just a place and doesn't give any bonuses.  The Geothermal Shallows do give bonus energy.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: EmpathCrawler on July 10, 2020, 03:52:49 AM
I'm replying to the OP.


The Freshwater Sea gives +1 nutrients. It often spawns broken by the world builder, though.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Trenacker on July 10, 2020, 04:22:08 AM
Thanks much, EmpathCrawler!

I try hard to apprehend the authentic voice of every faction leader. Morgan is arguably the easiest for me, especially at his most stereotypical.

Here's another I really like: "And do you know the cause of the very first murder on our little expedition to the stars? Light. Two crewmen argued over possession of a headlamp. Gripped by avarice—and, no doubt, by fear—one stove the other’s head in with a sonic hammer. Over light. Even then, in our first hours above this new world, energy was the thing. For what is light but its herald?"

And another: "The complete chaos of our departure from Unity is the perfect endorsement of free exchange between communities. Trade is an instinct. We took a crate because it was there, not because of what was in it. We knew that every object aboard would have a future purpose—a value. Not to us, perhaps, but certainly to someone else. And remember: that “someone else” was still shooting at us."

The Purelake is a concept lifted straight from Brandon Sanderon's Stormlight Chronicles. While his world his different physics, perhaps the Purelake in my AC story is replenished by subterranean vents.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 10, 2020, 06:06:01 AM
Ah, I didn't read the description of Centauri Biology.
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: Trenacker on July 13, 2020, 10:07:05 PM
So forget whether new techs are desirable from the point of view of the existing computer game.

What are some near-future technologies generally speaking?
Title: Re: Future Technology - New Additions to the Tech Tree?
Post by: bvanevery on July 14, 2020, 01:58:04 PM
There's no basis for prognosticating on the "near future".  It's as vague as saying, "What's something worth writing about in sci-fi?"  No idea what you or anyone else would want.  People who can do this well, beyond merely "having ideas", have the potential to make the Big Bucks [TM] as writers.

You can't really forget about the game, to come up with tech possibilities for the game.  The game doesn't have infinite scope.

Some of the techs in the game are goofy, precisely because they were so "near future", that we've already done 'em!

Respecting the existing narrative themes of the game, and its characters, is probably a more fruitful avenue for deciding on insertions into the game.  Or for analyzing where those themes and characters are weak.

I really hate it when "new" authors come along and ruin what was good about an existing sci-fi franchise.  It's arguably been happening in Star Trek, although my jury is out on Discovery because it merely looks bad.  I haven't gone behind the CBS All Access paywall to find out if it really is bad IMO.  But I don't like it when writers turn shows "dark", like the Stargate franchise did with Stargate Universe.  I'm only getting around to giving it a 2nd chance now, and only because of COVID-19 giving me all this extra free time.  They ruined the perfectly good Stargate Atlantis, the show I actually liked.  De-budgeted / canceled it pretty much, to make this "animosity driven" SG-U thing.  So someone wanted to write a Battlestar Galactica reboot instead of what Stargate was.  Yeah I get that was the writer's impulse, that they wanted to do that, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it as an audience.

The Orville is widely reputed to be doing better Star Trek than Star Trek lately.

The Kelvin timeline movies are bad.  Waste of good casting, that wasn't the problem.  It's the writing.  Fortunately last I looked, it didn't seem we'd be suffering any more of them.
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