Starting tech: Applied Physics.
-1 EFFIC
-1 POLICE
+1 talent per 4 citizens
+2 standard population limit
x2 votes in Planetary Council elections
Pro-Democratic, Anti-Police State.
Starting tech: Centauri Ecology.
+1 EFFIC
-2 MORALE
-1 POLICE
+1 PLANET
+1 nutrients from fungus
Pro-Green, Anti-Free Market.
Therefore, the AI factions become "food".Aren't they always? ;)
the sole arbiter of all human economic and military activity.
Is Tatya a wimp??Lal is an idealist through and through. I expect he would argue that the UN succeeded because it was able to bring all the world's nations together to accomplish this one act, and ultimately ensured the continuance of the human species as a result.
In that sense, what I mean to describe as the UN's supreme executive power is less that it deploys troops itself, and more that it uses its influence on member nations to get them to deploy troops on its behalf.
I can get behind Planned but why Fundamentalist? You do not currently need the talent.I am admittedly uncertain as to how +TALENT interacts with Psych rules, which I already find confusing enough as it is. But I figure it can't hurt. At the very least, it should let you coast on RecCommons + 1 police unit for longer, right? That seems significant given I can't run Police State and Non-Lethal Methods got stuffed all the way to the back of the tech tree.
Building the recycling tank over more formers also seems questionable unless you have enough money to rush-buy it.Well, let's do some theorycrafting. Both RecTanks and a former cost 4 rows to build (40 minerals). A RecTanks costs no maintenance and immediately gives the base +1 to all three resources, and is unlikely to be destroyed barring extreme negligence. To get the same from a former, you first need to build it, and then spend a cumulative 16 former-turns (4 for a farm, 8 for a mine, 4 for a solar), which can't really be sped up this early in the game. Formers also take up support you could be using for scouts or CPs, and there's always the chance you'll lose it to a mind worm attack.
Starting tech: Doctrine: Mobility.
+2 MORALE
-1 INDUSTRY
Prototypes do not cost extra minerals.
Pro-Power, Anti-Wealth.
Starting tech: Industrial Base.
+1 ECONOMY
-1 SUPPORT
-1 POLICE
+1 COMMERCE
+100 starting credits
-3 standard population
Pro-Free Market, Anti-Planned.
Starting tech: Doctrine: Flexibility.
-1 POLICE
-2 PROBE
+2 RESEARCH
+1 drone per 4 population
Free Network Node at every base
Pro-Knowledge, Anti-Fundamentalist.
Starting tech: Social Psych.
-2 ECONOMY
-1 POLICE
+1 GROWTH
+1 INDUSTRY
Immune to negative EFFICIENCY
Pro-Police State, Anti-Democratic.
good LP ;b;Thanks. I was inspired by the games over at the Codex; those guys can spin a decent yarn. I find writing like this is an interesting exercise that really tests your understanding of the concepts and ideologies involved, as well as just being good memeing in general.
U.N. EXPEDITION SUNK BY ECO-MILITANT “GAIANS”Meanwhile in Gaia
We tried to mount a rescue mission on Lady Nevill's personal yacht, but to no avail.Recovered footage from UNS Curiosity's aft cameras of "Lady" Nevill aboard her personal yacht:
Players
Tayta: Peacekeeping Forces. ;lal;Code: [Select]Starting tech: Applied Physics.
-1 EFFIC
-1 POLICE
+1 talent per 4 citizens
+2 standard population limit
x2 votes in Planetary Council elections
Pro-Democratic, Anti-Police State.
Nevill: Gaia’s Stepdaughters. ;deidre;Code: [Select]Starting tech: Centauri Ecology.
+1 EFFIC
-2 MORALE
-1 POLICE
+1 PLANET
+1 nutrients from fungus
Pro-Green, Anti-Free Market.
Two peace-loving factions going head-to-head. Who will prevail in this contest of economic might? Find out as the game unfolds!
I can get behind Planned but why Fundamentalist? You do not currently need the talent.I am admittedly uncertain as to how +TALENT interacts with Psych rules, which I already find confusing enough as it is. But I figure it can't hurt. At the very least, it should let you coast on RecCommons + 1 police unit for longer, right? That seems significant given I can't run Police State and Non-Lethal Methods got stuffed all the way to the back of the tech tree.
I don't remember at which point I've changed it but latest version don't use -1 POLICE shift for *all* factions anymore. Thanks for somebody's suggestion I realized it is easier for players to install.I'm pretty sure Nevill was the one who brought that one up at the time. xD I agreed with him, it just looked strange all around.
Removed TALENT from Fundamentalist. With that it essentially becomes a duplicate of PS drone quelling power. Now all three first choices are more or less distinct. PS is for drones and support. Democracy is for growth and efficiency. Fundamentalist is for pure combat and industry to support unit building.Fine with me.
Amazing report, Tayta, by the way! I've got a lot of pleasurable moments reading this. I am curious when someone is going to make a movie by this game. The game story itself is already quite well prepared for that. With all your AARs we may have a ready script! 😀Heh, thanks. You flatter me. Though I do agree that it could reasonably stand on its own if a reader had no idea what Alpha Centauri was about, with some editing work.
I was quite strongly impressed by your ability to cut through AI factions without problems. Thinker already has stronger AI. With all the removed exploit in WTP it should be pretty difficult to beat them. After you claimed you were beating AI left and right in WTP thread I tried few games myself. I don't know if you guys just two heads above me in skills but it is pretty difficult to overtake other faction economically bot so much to fight them without any tactics. Of course, there are leaders and underdogs among them and sometimes I am able to squash one weak neighbor quite early but that's it. Others, especially, strongest ones are quite difficult not only to conquer but even defend against should they decide to eliminate me.It's rather difficult to explain... I found myself gaining a sense of the patterns in how the (Thinker) AI moves after playing a lot of games with them. The main problem the AI has is that while it might make good moves on the micro level, it is incapable of long-term planning and can't squeeze the optimum performance out of the game the way the player can. It doesn't launch coordinated attacks, so attackers can be defeated piecemeal. It builds defenders in bases now, a major improvement over before; but it doesn't counterattack very well, so the player can pretty much siege bases at their leisure, focusing all their forces on one base, then the next. It builds probes and does a decent job in annoying the player with them, but it doesn't leave any for its own defense, which lets the player prevent it from building up a tech or project advantage. It gets a lot of bonuses that give it a headstart, but the player can maximize their economic performance and be assured of overtaking them. Ultimately, once various tools become available in game, the player is just able to use them a lot better than the AI ever could.
All and all, AI is still dumber than human but its current skill level combined with huge Transcend bonuses is high enough to challenge player. I think. Let me know if you believe it is still quite far from challenge level. I may continue working on AI itself. Currently I don't have plans to do it due to my own feeling of adequate challenge but may change my mind if you give me some pointers on it.
It gets a lot of bonuses that give it a headstart, but the player can maximize their economic performance and be assured of overtaking them. Ultimately, once various tools become available in game, the player is just able to use them a lot better than the AI ever could.
Also, being willing to use atrocities helps a lot if you aren't interested in trying to force a surrender. You'd be amazed at the sorts of obstacles nerve gas and gene warfare let you overcome. Otherwise, you probably will have to use at least some tactics to speed things along.
Part of the reason I never got around to releasing my own pet custom faction pack was that I wanted to playtest them thoroughly before putting them out there to the world, but eventually I found it tedious to go through the motions of defeating the AIs over and over again to gauge the balance.
That is right. Thinker makes AI smarter in AI way but it still doesn't make it human smart. What I meant is that if in vanilla human can achieve economical superiority by the turn say 100 it happens at turn 150 or so in Thinker. Not drastic change in engine but some.It does force the player to play more aggressively to stop the AIs from running away with the game, which is already a great improvement.
Yep. Looks like we need to teach AI to use atrocities. What's up with gene warfare? I thought it just decreases the population in base and has no direct implication on combat tactics. Meaning it doesn't harm units or anything like that.An AI that learned how to use nerve gas and gene warfare effectively would be a terrifying thing.
As you correctly pointed out AI faction balance and human faction balance are two big different things. So there won't be an elegant solution for faction power anyway as it ca be played but either AI or human, which changes everything.I think this is most exemplified by my favourite pet custom faction, whose special power is getting a free Psi Gate in every base. This opens up a lot of possibilities for creative thinking by humans, and was in fact how I beat Nevill in our second game... but the AI can't use it at all, while still getting lumbered with the faction penalties. It's very sad, but I don't see that changing anytime soon.
Gene warfare does, in fact, cause massive HP loss to units inside the base, usually inflicting 50-90% damage.
It also doesn't realize that it should stop using nerve gas if the Charter gets reinstated, so it effectively sanctions itself into oblivion.
Is it really matter if all AIs sanction each other into oblivion? I don't think they care much. And neither does human player about inter-AI relationships. I mean not too much. Or, in other words, that doesn't make AI less challenging for human to beat.Sanctions are irrelevant to diplomatic relations, they are automatically and compulsorily applied if you commit atrocities without repealing the Charter.
Do they automatically end after some period of time?Someone did research on how sanctions are applied here (https://www.weplayciv.com/forums/topic/2960-the-atrocity-thread/?page=2). Not sure how accurate it is.
Do they respond to cumulative atrocities? Meaning if one commits more of them during sanctions they are proportionally extended, etc.
Are there any other consequences beside sanctions? Like relations impact. Maybe long term one?
ZAKHAROV WINS GOVERNORSHIPMeanwhile in Gaia
;miriam; - What do you mean there are others!? I have it on Lord's authority that this is our Promised Land, and no one else should have a claim to it!(https://i.imgur.com/qwIBlAV.png)
Ah, yes, that. As much as she wished Zakharov didn't poke that particular can of mindworms, she was also glad she wasn't the one dealing with it.
Truth be told, she found the good Sister's radio frequency while scavenging the remains of the Unity escape pod. Miriam and her followers found themselves marooned on an island much like her own, but long isolation coupled with exposure to hallucinogenic spores led the already loopy congregation to believe they all died and were taken to Eden for their righteousness. A disembodied voice with no prior sightings of survivors was taken as nothing short of a divine miracle, and Lady Nevill played along, not having the heart to tell them otherwise. And if she used the Sunday sermons tospy ongleam a few insights into the lives of the faithful, no one was hurting for it.
good larpNevill and I gave some more detailed feedback in the mod's thread, with regards to balance and from the perspective of playing multiplayer.
Thoughts on your favorite features introduced by the mod?
[li$i]Rates of repair for units damaged in combat are configurable now, which could be a nice tool for rebalancing. I'm personally not a fan of the way the mod did it (it just takes too damn long to repair things, might as well scrap and rebuild), but something like 10%/turn in the field, 20%/turn in a base, and 40%/turn in a base with the appropriate repair facility might be good. Or, if you wanted to try something different, 0%/turn in the field but 10%/turn in a bunker or airfield. Would hurt early exploration but reward building those improvements. (Need to confirm whether sea bunkers also heal naval units.)[/li][/list]
[li$i]Units are Very Green by default in this mod. I'm not sure it's the best change: it means there's no real penalty for going into negative MORALE, and makes early combat a serious pain in the butt. Thankfully this can be reverted in the config.[/li][/list]
[li$i]Territorial combat bonuses, probably the defining feature of this mod. Defense was sorely in need of a buff, there's no denying that, but I think +50% is too much and makes things silly. I'd say +25% would be more appropriate for MP.[/li][/list]
Yea. This is definitely not a cornerstone of the mod so I'm perfectly fine if people turn it off.Heh, touche. It clearly is not unsolvable given how Nevill and I both conquered the AIs while running Wealth the whole time. :V
From the other side, I don't see it making a huge difference even in the early game. All early native are very green too. Also CC is level 1 tech and one can build just one of them to get +2 morale advantage early (+3 with monolith). Doesn't seem like unsolvable problem. Probably just an annoyance for those who does not bother to solve it.
😉
but I really do think the easiest solution is just to maintain separate versions for SP and MP play
. Thankfully, it looks like Merc is stepping up with the latter. Nevill and I might post our own too, once we've a few more test games under our belts.
100% agree. MP is a completely different game. More like a chess where every single matter.That's probably an accurate description. For one thing, actually reading what the opponent is doing becomes a matter of utmost importance.
Anything workable to have a look at already?
Frontier, None,
Police State, DocLoy, ++SUPPORT, ++POLICE, --TALENT
Democratic, EthCalc, ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --SUPPORT
Fundamentalist, Brain, ++PROBE, +MORALE, +INDUSTRY, --RESEARCH
Simple, None,
Free Market, IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, ----POLICE, --PLANET, -INDUSTRY
Planned, PlaNets, ++GROWTH, +INDUSTRY, --ECONOMY
Green, CentEmp, ++EFFIC, ++PLANET, --GROWTH, +TALENT
Survival, None,
Power, MilAlg, ++SUPPORT, ++MORALE, -INDUSTRY, +TALENT
Knowledge, Cyber, +EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, --PROBE, -POLICE
Wealth, AdapEco, +ECONOMY, +INDUSTRY, --MORALE, -PLANET
None, None,
Cybernetic, DigSent, ++EFFIC, ++RESEARCH, +PLANET, ---POLICE
Eudaimonic, Eudaim, ++ECONOMY, ++GROWTH, +SUPPORT, ---MORALE
Thought Control, WillPow, ++POLICE, ++INDUSTRY, +MORALE, ---SUPPORT
humanitarian intervention
Will to Power goes to great lengths to ensure that human players can’t lazily overwhelm the AI with a few high-attack units, most notably in rebalancing weapons and armour to be roughly equal on the tech tree, and in adding the +50% territory bonus on top of the +50% base defense bonus to further augment that. The human player can still eventually overcome the AI, but they’re supposed to work for their conquest to the point where it’s not really worth it a lot of the time.
Atrocities bypass all of that.
Here you see me engaging in the classic one-two combo of gene warfare followed up by a nerve gas attack. Gene warfare reduces all defenders down to 50-90% HP, while nerve gas boosts your units’ attack by +50%. Both cause population loss: gene warfare does it according to a more complicated formula, nerve gas just straight-up halves it.
Normally, atrocities result in sanctions being applied according to a formula, scaling up as you commit more and more; but repealing the UN Charter removes this effect.
I actually planned to take University Base intact, seeing as it had the Empath Guild, but the atrocities were too effective at wiping out the population and so the base was razed when my rover moved in to capture it. Troops got a little carried away!
They voted for that, haven't they? Probably planned to commit few atrocities too. The game is actually quite logical in that. We sure can try to tone it down somehow but this is why lifting UN charter is there - to aid aggressive nations. It is fun element of the game.Yeah, the whole Planetary Council mechanic is actually quite robust and sensible. One of my favourite parts of the game for sure.
I don't think it is too easy to lift it. You need to become a planet governor or ally few factions or bribe them, etc. It is a work too. PKs with their voting power are in unique position to avoid other governor veto. That is a nice bonus too.
I suggest you keep atrociting away and let us know about consequences whether from University or others. Did they build hospitals anywhere to reduce unit health loss?
Do you think we should reduce unit health loss even without hospitals?
Do you think we should reduce population loss from gas?
and the target will hate you forever