Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2019, 01:40:09 pm
replacing factions with Pirates |
I hacked 3 factions to be Pirates in all but name. That way I can easily tell them apart on the map and won't get confused. Basically I just started with my usual pirates.txt, then renamed it to some other faction.txt name. You also have to change the line that says "#PIRATES" to whatever the designator for the replaced faction is, i.e. "#DRONES", "#CYBORGS", "#ANGELS". If you don't, the game will lock up, you won't even be able to start.
Other than renaming the file and changing the #FACTION to match, you don't have to do anything else. I however choose to edit some of the text items so that it's easier to tell the Pirate factions apart. At a glance, I should be able to see what factors I'm testing.
Presently I'm interested in Pirates as I have them in version 1.28 of my mod, Pirates with -1 INDUSTRY, Pirates with -1 SUPPORT, and Pirates with -1 INDUSTRY and -1 SUPPORT. I could test 7 Pirate factions at once, but I'm only going to test 4. I've also modded the Peacekeepers, the Believers, and the Hive for version 1.29 of my mod, so I'd like to see how they perform as well. Their changes are minor and they are not expected to do as well as the Pirates. Having some land powers in the game might make the exercise a bit less artificial.
I'm testing on an Enormous 80x160 map, 4X as large as a Standard game map. This is the largest map size with a pleasing aspect ratio, that does not trigger weird bugs in the stock binary faction placement algorithm. In a typical game, there's usually only the one Pirate faction for all the oceans of Planet. With an Enormous map, all the Pirates should have as much ocean as they're used to.
I'm using Thinker mod as the testbed, because it moves AQUATIC factions more intelligently at the beginning of the game than the stock binary does. The stock binary typically puts Safe Haven right in the middle of deep ocean with no resources. Also in Thinker mod, variations in colonization progress are quite pronounced. I'm expecting my unchanged version 1.28 of the Pirates to be quite large compared to the others, based on previous test games I've played.
So who is the strongest, weakest, or most balanced Pirate? AARG!
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2019, 02:19:34 pm
ordinary Pirates manual start |
I play the 1st turn of the "normal" Pirates manually. The radar echo showed a choice of land masses to the north and south, with the north being more centrally located on the map. I sent my scout ship south and that land mass must be farther away than I realized. So I went north with a Sea Colony Pod. I popped a pod with it, on the logic that one can survive hits by Isles of the Deep at the very beginning of the game. I got kelp, so I settled on a non-kelp square.
what I got |
Now I will turn it over to the AI and just watch. It can figure out what to do with the 2nd Sea Colony Pod. I expect it will almost immediately settle a Port Svensgaard. To get the AI going, I click Menu.. Scenario.. Activate Scenario Editor and confirm "Yes". This of course reveals the whole map, so before I start watching, let's look at what other factions have done.
dangerous popping |
It seems that Thinker mod AI also believes in popping pods to get early sea benefits. But is it going to survive the misfortune of 2 Isles of the Deep?
dominating a waterway |
Elsewhere Thinker mod AI has chosen more of an Infinite City Sprawl style of initial placement. It happens to be useful as these land masses are large and not otherwise connected. Perhaps they will make inroads on both?
jungle Pirates |
One of the Pirates is going to get the Monsoon Jungle, as Thinker mod AI spreads on land as well as water. This could skew the test. They are also likely to come into water conflict with the other Pirate, as that waterway goes right between them. Land conflict will take longer due to the twisting and turning of the waterway.
lonely Hive |
The Hive is unchallenged on a large land mass with no special resources in the immediate area of settlement. A bit of a fungal barrier to overcome as well. It should push them linearly east to the better rainy land.
Peackeeepers messed with |
The Peacekeepers have no challenger on land, and plenty of it to spread into. However they have Pirates nearby, who might encroach upon the land depending on where that 2nd Sea Colony Pod goes.
crinkly Believers |
The Believers are unchallenged. They have a substantial fungal barrier that's going to force them to go southwest. The "maze of fungus" effect is not helpful to factions that aren't PLANET friendly. The initial land they have to walk over is dry and only has 1 supply pod on it. I'd say they got a bad start, especially compared to the Hive which has 5 pods in the same walking distance.
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2019, 02:43:20 pm
the Pirate turn order |
The next step in firing up the AIs, is to watch the next faction play its turn. I select "Scenario... Switch Sides / Change View". I pick the faction that goes just after the one I started with, in this case the Peacekeepers.
if you see this message, always choose No |
Don't take control. Watch the computer player. You'll probably be staring at a bunch of black squares as the Omniscient View gets turned off when you do this. Hit "C" to recenter the view on or near your new faction.
black outlined flashing Turn Complete bar |
You will see that the Turn Complete bar looks different than usual. It'll be flashing and have a black outline. That means the AI is in charge now. Click on the bar to watch a turn get played! Note that you'll want "pause after every turn" to be set in your game preferences.
the AI settles UN Headquarters |
You will need to confirm various dialog boxes that pop up as the game is played. "Ok", "Yes", whatever the default response is, is always the correct answer. If you want to have the game keep playing itself without any manual intervention, make a "bar of pennies" with some duct tape. Put it over your Enter key so that it'll just keep on confirming. It's tacky, and you can't multitask your computer while the game is being played, but it's what they did back in the day. Future game programmers will hopefully instrument their methods better.
Rozegaard easily survives 2 Isles |
Selecting "Scenario.. Omniscient View" or just hitting Y as a shortcut, will let you see the whole map all at once again. The game runs faster if you keep the black and don't look at everything. That's better for an automated test. I'm still interested in looking around at what happened though. I haven't changed sides, I'm just able to see the whole map and all the faction details. 'Cuz I'm Omniscient, like God.
:adore:
double popping speed |
Looks like the Cyborg Pirates cloned their Unity Gunship. Otherwise nothing interesting to report for this 1st turn.
Post by: bvanevery on March 26, 2019, 03:19:06 pm
Peacekeeper colonists are stupid |
MY 2107. The Peacekeepers are not doing a good job moving their 2nd colonist around. The Hive and the Believers have long since settled their 2nd city. The Peacekeepers could have been 7 squares away from their starting location by now.
Believer colonists are foolhardy |
MY 2110. The Believers are walking straight over fungus to get to whatever fool place they think they need to go. If this is the way the AI generally does things, it would explain a lot about the piss poor early faction performance I've seen in various test games. Half the time I've seen factions get really stunted.
Angel Pirates are trigger happy |
MY 2111. The Angel Pirates are fixating on a fungal tower, shelling it over and over again with their Unity Gunship. I was wondering why I kept hearing artillery every turn. It seemed really weird that anyone would be in a fight this early, and it doesn't make the same sound as a Spore Launcher. They aren't doing any real damage to the tower, and they don't have any land unit to follow up to kill it. This fixation is costing them lots of exploration and pod popping. It is really frickin' dumb.
Believers don't pick easy obvious path |
MY 2113. The Believers give up on walking the fungus, turning towards an open path they could have taken to begin with! What a waste. It could have gotten them killed, and it has delayed them several turns.
Peacekeepers are stillborn |
MY 2116. The Peacekeepers' 2nd colonist has milled around in the same spot for over a decade. All other factions have at least 3 cities now, and some have 4. This is clearly a bug, but what causes it? It's not for lack of resources in the area, they've had plenty. Did they feel threatened by the mindworm at large, and not realize they had the Scouts to deal with it?
settle down Peacekeepers |
MY 2118. The Peacekeepers finally settle down and decide to play the game. This is the same year that they killed the mindworm larva, so maybe the colonists felt threatened. They are 13 years late, they could have settled this in MY 2105. I think at least the nutrient resource was apparent back then. If the AI is waiting for pods to pop before finally settling on a site, it is too conservative. Settling, then making Scouts, then popping pods, is a much better strategy than waiting for years to get the job done. You may or may not get a resource, but at least you're settling.
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2019, 01:03:10 am
double continental |
MY 2145. The Pirates with -INDUSTRY have straddled both continents they started next to. The Pirates with -SUPPORT that started near the Monsoon Jungle are starting to compete for the waterway.
get a boat |
The normal Pirates are making a major land claim with no competition. The sea is almost like a food incubator for them.
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2019, 01:17:15 am
Pirates pushed together |
MY 2152. The -INDUSTRY - SUPPORT Pirates did not settle land, possibly because the Peacekeepers are on the land they'd most naturally settle. So they have followed coastal waters, which bring them into competition with the -SUPPORT Pirates spreading from the Monsoon Jungle area.
Hive gardeners |
The Hive has aggressively spread into the rainy continental interior. The Peacekeepers are a complete joke by comparison to this.
Believer sardines |
The Believers are doing ok, having successfully implemented a close packing strategy on not so great land.
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2019, 01:33:37 am
Treasure Island |
MY 2163. The -SUPPORT Pirates have claimed the island between them and the -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT Pirates, pretty much cutting off the latter from expansion towards them. The -SUPPORT Pirates could expand into plentiful available land northwest of them, but they haven't chosen to. Their most obvious place for expansion was into the Peacekeeper capitol. The Peacekeepers are substantially behind the other 2 land powers, showing half as much force on the graph.
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2019, 02:03:01 am
Pirate projects |
MY 2183. The -INDUSTRY Pirates that are straddling 2 continents, have begun the Planetary Energy Grid. A lot of factions have begun the Weather Paradigm. I think for a time E3 Ecological Engineering was freely traded between factions. I consider that a big mistake and am not sure I'd see the same behavior with the stock binary. It bears testing at some point.
Triple Crown Pirates |
Actually the -INDUSTRY Pirates are on 3 continents now. The water portion of their empire glues it all together. I don't see any rhyme or reason as to why they got B4 Environmental Economics first. I suppose it's the luck of blind research. All Pirate factions have Explore, Build as their foci. The early part of the Explore tree is somewhat broad and could cause a lot of different things to be discovered. The Build tree is narrower by comparison.
go northwest |
The -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT Pirates have finally moved onto the continent northwest of them. They have no competition for it. Took them long enough. I suppose they don't really think about what they're doing, it's just a starting proximity spread.
irreligious war |
The Hive and the Believers are actually starting to collide with each other on land. I didn't anticipate this, because they were in wraparound positions on the east-west edges of the map. They didn't start all that close as the crow flies, there was plenty of land between them. But in the shape and scale of all these continents, they're closer than they are farther. There's a fair amount of unoccupied land elsewhere, as one would expect on an Enormous map.
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2019, 02:29:22 am
Akigaard of the Jungle for Governor |
MY 2196. I'm not sure why the -INDUSTRY Monsoon Jungle Pirates are such a popular choice, but obviously, the population boost of the Jungle made them one of the top 2 candidates. The no penalty Pirate faction is 2nd, and the -INDUSTRY Pirate faction is just 2 population behind them. The -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT Pirate faction has a noticeably smaller population, although that could be due to being blocked from land spreading initially. They still have more than land factions do. Yang is the best land faction and this reflects that he had an easier start, with more pods initially available, and better land to spread into eventually. The Believers have done ok but are quite a bit behind the Hive. The Peacekeepers are pathetic, as their vote tally represents 2X their actual population. That's what failing to settle half of your starting civilization does to you.
This is a good point to stop for the night. I'll resume tomorrow when I have wifi access again. Makes it easier to type up. In the meantime I will try the same factions with the stock binary, to see how much of a difference that makes. I will just summarize what I learn from that, rather than giving the sort of blow-by-blow I give here.
Post by: bvanevery on March 27, 2019, 09:17:59 pm
stock binary land vs sea graphs |
I ran the same kind of scenario with the stock binary. As of MY 2281, the land powers had somewhat outperformed the Pirate factions. The exception is the -INDUSTRY Pirate faction, which took over the Monsoon Jungle.
stock binary land vs sea Secret Projects |
Despite that, the Peacekeepers have a noticeable lead. They were elected Governor, a seemingly preferential choice to at least 5 factions for some reason. I suspect that the monetary input of the Governorship is a substantial edge, when combined with robust growth and larger cities before a hab complex becomes necessary. These Peacekeepers don't have the +2 GROWTH buff either. So if nothing else, this test proves that the Peacekeepers don't need it to do well. It depends more on environmental conditions.
The stock binary also seems to demonstrate that changes in Pirate buffs do not really matter. Seems I might as well leave them as is. Or, I'd need to test something other than -INDUSTRY and -SUPPORT.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 03:20:30 am
destroying a Borehole with a Condenser |
MY 2225. In the Thinker mod test game that this thread is mostly about, the -SUPPORT Pirates got the Weather Paradigm. This has allowed them to start building Boreholes and Condensers much earlier than other factions. In version 1.29 of my mod, these are delayed until late midgame in the tech tree. We see here that the AI built a Borehole, yet now is wiping it out by putting a Condenser on it. They have 2 other Boreholes elsewhere, but otherwise have not really gotten started with the Boreholes and Condensers thing.
Thinker AI Pirate graphs |
The -SUPPORT Pirates have not gained an advantage from Boreholes or Condensers yet. It's worth noting that they're sitting on the Monsoon Jungle. That hasn't turned out to be a big advantage. I guess on an Enormous map, faction performance is dominated by the large amount of land and sea they can spread into.
Thinker AI Pirate Secret Projects |
The straight Pirates, -SUPPORT Pirates, and -INDUSTRY Pirates have done better than the land powers. The Hive did better than the Believers because they had better starting land and better rainy land to spread into later. The Peacekeepers were stillborn due to moving their 2nd colony pod stupidly for 13 turns, not settling.
The -INDUSTRY Pirates have done slightly better than their peers and there's no clear geographic explanation why. Is it an accident of who completes more Secret Projects under fairly similar conditions, thereby triggering a slight snowball? Or is it just noise? Like in the stock game, it seems to demonstrate that debuffing the Pirates doesn't matter, at least on an Enormous map.
late land settlement |
The -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT Pirates did worst of the Pirates, but I think that's because they got blocked by the Peacekeepers from taking the most obvious land next to them. They eventually got around to a northwestern continent but haven't settled very much of it.
So, these test games have failed to balance Pirate minerals, nor have they clearly demonstrated that such minerals even need to be balanced. Maybe I will get different results on a Huge map? And maybe I should only test 2 Pirate factions: one that's normal, and one that has -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT. Let the rest of the game be land powers and see if that crowds the Pirates. Alternately, I could save the game on Turn 1, run the game with 1 Pirate, then run it again with -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT changed. That would be the fairest test.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 02:41:47 pm
Thinker mod March 26, 2019 |
A new development version of Thinker mod has been released. I shall test with it. Features:
* New parameter: hurry_items allows AI to use energy reserves to hurry production
* Major adjustments to faction_placement to improve starting locations
* Faction placement now creates two extra nutrient resources for each land-based faction
* Fix spawning issues on Map of Planet
* Fix sea colony pods sometimes freezing in place
* Fix sea bases sometimes not building enough transports
* Rebalancing of social_ai priorities
I will use the default thinker.ini to start with. In particular, faction_placement=1 to see how the revised faction placement algorithm performs.
Spartans with their 2 free nutrients |
I approve of the 2 nutrient expedient, at least for now. It will help stabilize the fairness of faction starts, until such a day as the initial settlement AI is robust enough not to do anything stupid. Thinker AI and the stock AI are both just not smart enough to protect themselves from very early game events. Getting from 1 city to 2 cities to 4 cities is tricky and you can lose half the future value of your empire rather easily! In another thread I have proposed to start everyone with 4 colonists to try to mitigate this problem. At least that way, if a colonist gets killed or substantially delayed, you're not losing nearly as much of your future empire.
how I moved the Spartans |
I've set up a game on a Huge map with the Pirates and 6 other random factions. Caretakers, Usurpers, Peacekeepers, Spartans, Cyborgs, and University are in the game. I've saved the game here as a uniform starting point for testing. The Spartans are listed as the 1st faction. The Pirates are the 2nd. I will play one turn as the Spartans to get the AI started, then watch the Pirates do their thing. Once I've watched it long enough to see some results, I'll change the Pirates to -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT, watch the AIs play again, and see if it makes any real difference in Pirate performance. That's as fair a test as I can devise.
start of normal Pirates |
Looks to me like the Pirates do not get the 2 nutrient starting bonus. I don't consider that to be a problem, as getting food is easy for Pirates. They are starting in rather good waters by the standards of many many other games I've played. If the intent of the new faction placement algorithm was to hand the Pirates a cakewalk, it has certainly succeeded. A mineral special, an energy special, the Geothermal Shallows, and plenty of Ocean Shelf squares. Quite a bit better than being stuck in an Ocean Trench!
Why, after all that setup work, is the AI not actually taking control of the Pirates? Grr. Investigating.
normal Pirates AI settlement choices |
I don't know why that happened. Maybe because the Caretakers and Usurpers aren't in the game yet. I worked around it by switching to viewing the University, running 1 turn, then switching to view the Pirates. When I start the 2nd game with -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT Pirates, I'll need to do the same thing.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 03:22:31 pm
invalid Scout movement |
Every turn, the AI seems to be trying to move the Scouts onto land. Of course lacking a Transport, it can't.
dense Pirate spread |
MY 2131. They finally get a Transport together and move a Colony Pod onto land. I hope they shut up with the warning messages now.
no sealift for land settlement |
MY 2136. Land settlement is suboptimal in a few respects. For one thing, the land being settled into hasn't been scouted at all. That could be a direct product of the earlier mistaken belief that it could be scouted, trying over and again to do so and failing. So the pod in the north that's beginning to move west with the turn of the land, is in danger of running into something bad.
Second, colonists are merely dropped onto land from adjacent coastal bases. They aren't actually close to a good city site, they'll have to walk. There isn't actually enough land to support 2 more cities in the region either. 3 sea bases and 1 land base are already poised to use most of the land in the region. A correct deployment would be 1 more land city up the coast, where there's no competition.
But the AI went gangbusters on sea settlement, so strategically there may not turn out to be much to complain about. Only mistake I see so far, is failure to fully utilize the Geothermal Shallows. Perhaps in a few more turns that will be corrected.
wasteful dominance |
MY 2137. Land settlement is emerging as clearly and crassly dumb. Despite this, the Pirates are Unsurpassed. Meanwhile the Caretakers show signs of being stillborn on the graph.
Caretakers stunted |
The Caretakers are in conflict range with the Usurpers and have only produced 3 cities. Possibly their initial 3 colonists but that is uncertain.
Usurper good spread |
In the same period of time, the nearby Usurpers have managed 8 cities. I think I see the problem. Neither one has been given the 2 bonus nutrient squares. This is presumably because they don't have a fixed starting point, they're inserted into the map later. The Cult of Planet will have the same problem. The Caretakers simply got bad luck and the Usurpers got decent luck. The point of stabilizing the faction starting positions, has been defeated here.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 03:48:27 pm
Pirates settle second land mass |
MY 2146. The Pirates have settled upon the second land mass to the east that they're adjacent to. Some Cyborg Scouts were seen earlier. The settlement of the first land mass is wasteful in terms of colonists allocated and how they're moved around, but it's getting scouted and settled by sheer brute force.
Pirates on welfare |
MY 2149. The Pirates gained the ability to go Capitalist this year, but they prefer Socialist. I'm a bit surprised. I would have thought money and industry would be more attractive than population growth, especially given that they have abundant food anyways. Well whatever floats their boat!
The Geothermal Shallows also did finally get filled in with another sea base at some point.
mindworms take revenge |
MY 2150. This is why it's important to scout sooner. Mindworm bursts become more common later. All those colony pods milling towards the unsettled western lands, are in danger of being wiped out. As are the barely settled cities, especially to the extent that the parked right next to fungus. If Scouts had been sent into this land much earlier, and pods popped earlier, the land would be more cleared and this wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem. Also if the AI estimated how many colony pods it really needs, and how to move them, instead of just spewing a lot and walking slowly to target. The time delay of walking so far, means that mindworms can be very active by the time the colony arrives somewhere to settle.
Despite all of that, the Pirates are still dominating the graph. This was a very good start for them. I am seriously doubting that -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT is going to restrain this picture.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 03:54:55 pm
Pirates prepare to ensure victory |
MY 2158. The Pirates learn B3 Ecological Engineering and begin the Weather Paradigm. If they complete it, AFAIAC under Thinker mod the game is effectively over. With early Condensers and Boreholes, they will win. They are already the runaway faction even without that.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 05:18:30 pm
half of Pirate colonies survive mindworms |
MY 2164. Because the Pirates are Socialist and not Capitalist, and they've got Trance Scouts, only half of the colonists heading westwards got killed. The cities that they already made, survived. It's wasteful but they're still brute forcing along.
Pirates subvert Usurpers |
MY 2174. The Pirates use a probe team to achieve what I think was the first conquest on Planet. They are still dominating but have some Secret Project competition now.
The AI stops working for some reason. I switch to watching the Usurpers for a bit to get it going again, then back to the Pirates.
University gets stuff done first |
MY 2200. I don't know exactly when the University finished these projects, as I've had a duct tape bar of pennies sitting on my Enter key to make things run without me. Actually watching this game is as exciting as watching paint dry. I was going to quit at MY 2200, but the somewhat unexpected result of seeing a different faction finish SPs first, will keep me running the thing a bit longer. Maybe getting the Weather Paradigm isn't quite such a done deal or game determinant as I supposed. In my mod I do make it more expensive than other SPs, 400 minerals. That's to delay its completion and give a human player a larger window of opportunity to wrest it for themselves. There's no question it's an exceedingly overpowered projects in the hands of a Thinker AI, but even if gained, it takes a fair amount of time to actually build the Condensers and Boreholes. That's because I doubled their turn cost.
Spartans catching up |
The Spartans are actually catching up to the Pirates. If this were the stock AI, I'd attribute it to changing their research foci to Explore, Conquer. In versions 1.20 through 1.28 of my mod, they were only Conquer, and it hurt their performance. Previous to that, they seemed overpowered. Now I expect that Thinker mod completely ignores the Explore stimulus as part of running its AI. Unlike the stock binary, which actually moves and settles differently if the faction is Explore focused. But it could be that the hybrid of researching Explore and Conquer in my tech tree, is substantially better for faction growth than researching Conquer alone. The only faction I have left that only researches Conquer, is the Usurpers. They've never seemed to need a boost.
I wouldn't call this an exactly shocking result. In my mod, Explore is interpreted to mean "colonization, growth, and Psi combat techs", not exploring per se. Anything that makes people happy, whether a Rec Commons or Non-Lethal Methods, is an Explore tech. My basic philosophy is that in the future, you can be happy and poor at the same time. Consider a Hive Police State for instance. Everyone's miserable and forced to be "happy" by the police. That faction can still grow like mad and crush you.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 06:26:50 pm
upset by the Cyborgs |
MY 2209. Dang. At some point the Cyborgs completed the Weather Paradigm and they're the 2nd weakest faction of the game, only in front of the stillborn Caretakers. I did not expect that. What was their secret? The base that did it, Omicron Quadrangle, was fairly unexceptional with a 1-4-1 forest mineral boost.
I am tempted to say this is not because of the Cyborgs having better productivity. Rather, I'm going to guess that the Pirates switched their project to something else that they thought was more valuable. This could potentially be my fault in the Secret Project weights. I'll need to take a look at that. The Pirates did finish the Merchant Exchange, and they're working on 3 other Secret Projects. The Planetary Energy Grid is of course very very valuable.
I look at the Cybernetic monuments and it says they completed the Weather Paradigm in MY 2207. The Pirates completed the Merchant Exchange in MY 2208. The Pirate sea base that built it has 9 minerals productivity. The Cyborg land base has 7 minerals. This is not easy to explain from a head-to-head competition standpoint. Does Thinker mod know how to rush Secret Projects now? Or is it a more traditional mechanic, the Pirates near completion of the Weather Paradigm, then the Cyborgs intervene to rush it? I'm not clear on when or why the AI will intervene like that, only that it happens.
Looking at auto saved games, it seems that in MY 2206 the Cyborgs had 8 minerals production. The Pirates only had 7 minerals, due to several units sucking up support. The Cyborgs may have simply beaten the Pirates in a straight race. Going back to MY 2205, they're 2 turns away from completion and only have 118 credits. They didn't rush. The Pirates were 9 turns away from completion and had the cash to rush. They simply didn't do it, they let it go.
Ok, this establishes that the Pirates can be in the lead, yet still subject to random stupidity that fails to capitalize on their advantage. I guess that's fine if you're in the lead, having your brain fall out of your head. Time to see if -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT Pirates perform any worse, or whether the golden start the Pirates got is pretty much the determining factor.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 07:01:23 pm
nerfed Pirates |
I edited my pirates.txt file. I added some labels that would help me identify the new Pirate faction as being in the game. I found that after loading the saved Spartan turn 1 game, my Pirate changes weren't in there. I had to select "Scenario.. Reload Faction.. Pirates" to get them to take. The Pirates have not moved yet. Once again the AI hasn't taken over for some reason, so I switch my view to the University. Huh, that's not working either. I switch to the Peacekeepers, and that doesn't work either. Wow this is weird. I switch back to the Spartans. That works, Sparta Command get settled. Now I switch to the Pirates and things are like the previous game.
nerfed Pirates start the same way |
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 07:07:44 pm
nerfed Pirates make landfall way earlier |
MY 2115. The nerfed Pirates make landfall. It took the normal Pirates until MY 2131 to do this. Did they pop a pod that completed a Transport? Random events might dominate this most basic act of settlement. If so, it's a good argument in favor of starting all factions with 4 colonists.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 07:15:21 pm
nerfed Pirates are Capitalist not Socialist |
MY 2120. The nerfed Pirates happen to research B2 Synthetic Fossil Fuels, the tech that allows Capitalist. This is quite within ordinary Pirate capabilities as they are an Explore, Build focused faction. They actually take Capitalist, I suppose because they can, and no other option is available. This should help them, provided they don't run into too many mindworms.
No other sea bases have been settled yet. I wonder if the nerfing caused the AI to build a land colony earlier, because it thought it could afford a land colony better? Counterintuitively, that could turn out to be a better strategy. But it's not clear yet, because we haven't seen the Pirates actually settle the land and walk around yet. By MY 2137, the normal Pirates had 7 sea bases, 2 land bases, and 4 land colonists milling about somewhat pointlessly. We'll see what the nerfed Pirates managed. Could less be more?
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 07:23:09 pm
better on land, worse at sea |
MY 2137. On land, the nerfed Pirates have gained the same 2 bases, even down to the same locations. They have 2 land colonists moving westwards, in a better position than the 4 clustered colonists the normal Pirates had. On the water, they have only settled 5 sea bases. The normal Pirates had managed 7. The nerfed Pirates are not dominating the graph.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 07:37:23 pm
Caretakers ok |
MY 2137. The Caretakers have done ok this game, they are not completely stunted. They have managed 4 cities with a 5th imminent. They are near some nutrients. Is that the 2 nutrient faction start bonus, or just supply pods that got popped? Is there something about saving and reloading games that would cause the 2 nutrient starting bonus to kick in? Is there just some random bug, manifesting or not?
before the Caretakers |
Those nutrients all correspond to supply pod positions. I say they did not get any nutrient bonus from faction placement. They just got lucky popping pods.
Usurpers get lucky |
The Usurpers are given an even better start this game. They land near the Monsoon Jungle and soon take it. They have fewer cities, only 6 compared to 8 in the previous game, but I think they're not going to mind! I do not see any obvious nutrient bonus at Courage To Question.
Usurper auto save 30 turns ago |
Possibly they walked away from their original starting location. Let's look at an old auto save to check.
before Usurpers landed |
Looks to me like they simply popped 3 supply pods that all happened to turn into nutrients. They had good luck, but they were not given a 2 nutrient starting bonus.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 07:51:56 pm
earthquake increases eastern land spread |
An earthquake narrows the channel a little and lifts a sea base onto land, increasing the land footprint. They will eventually meet the Cyborgs on this land mass. The Pirates are even on the graph with the Spartans and the University.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 08:04:13 pm
nerfed Pirates explode mindworms |
MY 2148. The nerfed Pirates explode a pod full of mindworms, similiar to the normal Pirates in MY 2150. However the normal Pirates were farther west when it happened. Let's see if the nerfed Pirates have trouble with it. They did learn Trance 5 years ago, so they could do ok. However they are Capitalist with a -3 PLANET rating.
MY 2150. They lose a newly settled base. They also have a colony pod walking stupidly towards the danger.
nerfed Pirates seeking environmental mastery |
MY 2151. The nerfed Pirates gain B3 Ecological Engineering but do not start the Weather Paradigm. The normal Pirates started it in MY 2158.
MY 2153. The nerfed Pirates foolishly lose a 2nd western city. They could have garrisoned that.
make mo money |
MY 2159. The nerfed Pirates gain Industrial Base and the ability to go Democratic. In my mod that makes more money. They choose to do so, at the expense of their POLICE rating. Their budget is now 50-10-40. I don't know what it was before.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 08:22:49 pm
MY 2163. They lose another colonist to the same western mindworm. They don't seem to have a concept of avoiding obvious danger. They just plow forwards. The mindworm is almost dead though, so it's not going to kill another.
MY 2164. I spoke too soon! That barely alive mindworm kills another colonist. Lambs to the slaughter.
MY 2167. The mindworm finally dies. 2 colonists remain heading west.
Weather Paradigm underway |
MY 2170. A Pirate city has been working on the Weather Paradigm for 4 or 5 turns. Its production is unexceptional, a mere 6 minerals. -1 SUPPORT probably ensures a slight additional burden on the city. Let's say it began in 2166. The normal Pirates began in 2158.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 08:26:36 pm
Pirate commies |
MY 2171. They learn E2 Adaptive Economics, which enables Socialist economy. They prefer it to Capitalist and switch. This will make the Weather Paradigm take longer. Is getting +2 GROWTH going to cause them to catch up to where the normal Pirates were by now?
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 08:46:30 pm
nerfed Pirates Secret Projects |
MY 2200. Ok how have the nerfed Pirates done? They haven't finished anything. Other factions have. However, nobody's been in competition for the Weather Paradigm either.
nerfed Pirates graph |
The Pirates are back up to being the leading faction, having crossed the trajectory of the Monsoon Jungle powered Usurpers. Probably corresponds to going Socialist and growing faster. These Pirates do have competition though. They're not a runaway. They only need 2 turns to complete the Weather Paradigm though, and they do not have any competitors for it.
Post by: bvanevery on March 28, 2019, 09:12:44 pm
nerfed Pirates at 2009 |
MY 2209. The Pirates completed the Weather Paradigm when expected. They haven't started anything else. I'm not inclined to see the nerfing as making a big difference in Pirate performance.
nerfed Pirate ranking |
The nerfed Pirates are Unsurpassed, but they have near competitors. One is happenstancical, just the Usurpers being placed near the Monsoon Jungle. That didn't happen in the game with the normal Pirates. The Peacekeepers are doing well this game for unclear reasons.
Usurper murderers |
The payoff of sitting on the Monsoon Jungle, is the Usurpers get to murder the Spartans.
Spartans catching up |
Notice how much better the Spartans did in the previous game with the normal Pirates. They almost matched the Pirates on the graph. I think this says whoever moved into the land region near the Monsoon Jungle, was going to do well. In the 2nd game all that's changed is who does well. It's about that geography.
So, -INDUSTRY -SUPPORT doesn't appear to balance the Pirates in any substantial or important way. It's also not clear that the Pirates need to be balanced. I will just ship the 1.29 version of my mod without changing them and be happy about it. I can revisit the question of Pirate balance at some point in the future if more people seem to think they're out of whack. Maybe it's all really down to the accidents of starting locations, early pod poppings, and who gets what tech first.
Another way to interpret these results, is to say "Pirates do as well as a Monsoon Jungle faction". Doesn't matter if you nerf them the way I did. The original game nerfed them with -1 EFFIC -1 GROWTH. Maybe I'll revisit that concept sometime, but I have my doubts that it will matter.