Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 01:52:49 PM
March Thinker mod development version |
Induktio has released a new version of Thinker mod. I abandoned my previous game as I think it is more important to test the capabilities of the new .exe in a fresh game. He talks about the following changes:
This update is focused on the build priorities and terraforming:
* Thinker now supports formers based on all triads. Design_units will also create gravship formers when the techs are available.
* Formers will build less roads and try to avoid placing them on forest tiles when they're not needed.
* Other smaller tweaks to former priorities.
* Military unit production priority is now notably increased from previous amounts.
* Whenever AI loses bases to conquest, this also triggers an extra priority to devote nearly all available resources to building new units.
* During peacetime these modifiers will have a much lesser effect, so economy building should still work.
* Small changes to social_ai to prefer priority category models more often. But social priority/opposition effect values (e.g. PLANET) have no effect because of the engine, and are still ignored.
Additionally, this is the 1st version of Thinker mod that ships an alphax.txt along with it. It makes an important change: cutting global warming in half. And some minor changes, like changing the world editor settings, redefining what a Large Planet is, allowing anti-gravity struts on air units, a probe team reactor bug fix, removing a *Sea Former asterisk, and various comments.
I would never give up my own world generator settings. I worked for 2 months on them, before I even started SMACX AI Growth mod. The AI is already let off scott-free on eco-damage, and I don't believe in solving that problem by making eco-damage easier for everybody. I'm not interested in nerfing eco-damage for human players. So, I'm not going to use his alphax.txt at all. I'm going to use my own SMACX AI Growth mod, as I've been doing for previous test games.
Additionally, I'm working on new terraforming settings for a 1.29 release, designed to end the abuse of Boreholes and Condensers. These values are not finalized in my own mod, but they're what I'm going to test now.
Code: [Select]
#TERRAIN
Farm, None, Kelp Farm, None, 4, Cultivate $STR0, f, F
Soil Enricher, PlaEcon, Soil Enricher, Disable, 8, Construct $STR0, f, F
Mine, None, Mining Platform, None, 8, Construct $STR0, M, M
Solar Collector, None, Tidal Harness, None, 4, Construct $STR0, S, S
Forest, None, ..., Disable, 4, Plant $STR0, F, Shift+F
Road, None, Road, Disable, 1, Build $STR0, R, R
Mag Tube, Magnets, Mag Tube, Disable, 3, Build $STR0, R, R
Bunker, Disable, Bunker, Disable, 5, Construct $STR0, K, K
Airbase, DocAir, Airbase, Disable, 8, Construct $STR0, ., .
Sensor Array, None, Sensor Array, None, 4, Construct $STR0, O, O
Fungus, None, Sea Fungus, None, 6, Remove $STR0, F, F
Fungus, CentEmp, Sea Fungus, CentEmp, 6, Plant $STR0, F, Ctrl+F
Condenser, EcoEng, Condenser, Disable, 24, Construct $STR0, N, N
Echelon Mirror, EnvEcon, Echelon Mirror, Disable, 18, Construct $STR0, E, Shift+E
Thermal Borehole, IndAuto, Thermal Borehole, Disable, 60, Construct $STR0, B, Shift+B
Aquifer, EcoEng, Aquifer, Disable, 18, Drill to $STR0, Q, Q
Raise Land, EcoEng2, Raise Sea Floor, EnvEcon, 30, Terraform UP, ], ]]
Lower Land, EcoEng2, Lower Sea Floor, EnvEcon, 30, Terraform DOWN, [, [[
Level Terrain, None, Level Terrain, Disable, 4, Terraform LEVEL, _, _
Monolith, Disable, Monolith, Disable, 8, Place Monolith, ?, ?, (this is here for map editor)
Note in particular: 2X Condenser cost, 2.5X Borehole cost, and 2.5X Raise/Lower Land cost. I have justified all these costs in another thread, analyzing them in terms of resource progressions gained, and only needing 1 worker to gain the benefits in 1 square. I believe these improvements will still be profitable even at their greater cost, but they will require more judiciousness. I hope that spamming them, as Thinker mod does, will prove to be counterproductive. That's what this game will test.
I seriously doubt I'd raise the costs any higher this. Go too high, and you might as well admit that you really just want something out of the game entirely. I believe that Boreholes and Condensers are valid game mechanics, they're just way too good of a deal in the stock game. To the point that someone will write an AI to explicitly exploit them as the best thing you can do in the game.
Per the title, I will also be testing the "new and improved" military capabilities, to see if the AI factions actually put up a challenge when on defense. Yes the last game kicked the snot out of me on economics, Secret Project building, and tech races, with distant peaceful factions simply going nuts. But close quarters violent factions were pathetic, with only Scouts as garrisons in late game. I was limited only by the speed at which I could crank out fusion garrison units. Which was indeed limited, due to the pressures of those large distant peaceful empires threatening to win the game.
My last game, I had an "ok" start. Not great land, not terrible. I do wonder about the fairness and equity of the new faction placement algorithm, and I'll be observing that too.
In terms of improving my play style to combat Thinker mod propensities, the main thing I need to do is spread more at the very beginning. Once I get my various facilities to build, I like to stop bothering with that and go vertical. That's not actually an optimal strategy, it's just more pleasant for me as a player. I don't like having my play style dictated by other factors. I think I should be in charge of choice in the game and various competing choices should all be viable. But even given that, there's such a thing as spreading too little. I'll try to make sure I can't take too much blame for that, as opposed to the AI simply having resource buffs and eco-damage nerfing out the wazoo.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 02:10:23 PM
my Gaians are biological scientists |
Huge map, 30%..50% land mass with my large continents and large oceans, average settings. Transcend difficulty, default Thinker mod cost_factor. Random factions. I draw the Gaians. Morganites, Pirates, Cult of Planet, Cybernetic Consciousness, Free Drones, and Believers are in the game. I expect the Morganites and the Pirates to utterly dominate the economics of this game. They are economically fierce in my own mod alone, and under Thinker, they are monsters.
mindworms are like owning a dog |
MY 2111. I capture my 1st mindworm. I would consider this to be a bad start if I weren't the Gaians. I had a fungal bloom right next to my 2nd city. I slew the fungal tower that appeared. I'm Gaian but I don't need that much mindworm activity right next to me!
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 02:27:54 PM
let's have the neighbors for dinner |
MY 2116. I find evidence of another faction near me. I don't know if it's worth avoiding contact or not. I want to take advantage of all the Monoliths I just popped. On the other hand, grabbing all their supply pods with my superior mobility is a valid thing to do as well.
wormy neighbors |
MY 2122. It's the Cult of Planet. In my mod they insist on Fundamentalist, not Green. Theoretically, we can get along. In practice, with the stock binary I've often observed gratuitous hostility from them. I don't know what will happen. They are Obstinate but we signed a Treaty. Unsurprisingly they don't have any useful tech, as I'm the one with the free Biology Labs.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 03:00:32 PM
it ain't easy bein' Green |
MY 2129. I learn Centauri Empathy, which gives me Trance units and the ability to go Green. I do so, as I think being able to capture more mindworms will be helpful for dealing with Cha Dawn. The SUPPORT and GROWTH penalties remind me of the necessity of spreading out as much as I can. I switch most of my city productions to Trance Scout to get the defensive advantage. I send the older plain Scouts into the field to die.
I am Ruined |
MY 2135. I discover the Ruins.
the runt |
I am doing fine as far as expansion, and Cha Dawn is doing poorly with only 2 observable cities. I wonder why? Maybe they got one of their starting colony pods killed.
I may have observed this problem with Cha Dawn in the stock binary as well. Their research interests are Explore, Conquer. In the stock binary, Explore is a trigger for greater empire expansion and most of my factions use it to boost their early game spread. Cha Dawn can turn into a big empire, but he is not doing so this game. Cha Dawn was also a runt last game, although I think that was less about spread, more about not reaching the level of economics and tech that other factions did. One of their faction abilities is their RESEARCH will never drop below 0, because they have hands-on experience cutting up mindworms, so going Fundamentalist doesn't hurt them on RESEARCH. Not relevant right now though.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 03:23:25 PM
Morgan signs a Treaty. He sells me Doctrine: Flexibility, a rather surprising thing for me to be missing, considering my Explore focus. I guess it's Conquer first, Explore second, so that may be why. Hey I'm doing fine on land. I'll go capture some Isles now.
you won't stay Planet friendly |
Morgan has a spore launcher! I thought he might be sitting on the Manifold Nexus, but surprisingly, he's chosen Green. He must not have researched Synthetic Fossil Fuels yet to go Capitalist. Then again, Thinker mod was ruining the faction compulsions before, and probably still is in this version. You can have things like Morgan being Green but going to war with you because you're not Capitalist. It's absurd / bad, but until it rises to one of Induktio's priorities some day, it is what it is. We shall see if Morgan acts like Morgan or something else, a "more generic" faction with broken diplomacy.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 03:52:53 PM
you WILL throw out your plastic bags! |
MY 2147. I learn Biogenetics, which in my mod enables the Police State. Ever notice that it has a nice quote from Chairman Yang for it? This is going to bug Cha Dawn but I don't have to care. If he gives me any problem I will summarily conquer him.
better than a Copter |
I gain a Unity Jet from a supply pod. I'm sending it towards the Cult to scout territory. I got rid of Copters in my mod because their ability to attack so many times in a row is overpowered. Instead they're my chassis for Locusts. When used that way, for some reason they don't get multiple attacks, perhaps because a Psi attack always ends movement. This allows me to have Locusts, Needlejets, and Gravships all move at different increasing speeds.
Exploiting the air cover of a Gun Jet can be very powerful early in the game, but not as much as you might think, because 1 square can only be covered every other turn. 2 Jets is much more powerful, but even then, only 1 square is covered and only within range of one's bases.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 04:02:22 PM
shut up Morgan |
MY 2150. Morgan is Green himself! This is seriously dumb. Really. Induktio, please get rid of this.
Thinker hypocrite |
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 04:42:33 PM
you're a schizophrenic moron |
MY 2153. Part of me says if it's gonna be a stupid show, I should game it. I sign a Pact so that when he cancels it, I think his trustworthiness rating will go down. I also get to see his map. I don't think he can spread to where I want to be.
CEO flaps his jaw |
This doesn't seem to be the mighty Morgan I'm used to. I've got him outclassed 7 cities to 5, and I'm only using my inland cities to make Colonists. It's possible that I haven't started close to Morgan in any recent game, and this is how he always is early on. In which case, he'll become fierce later.
pithy empire |
But another possibility is, Thinker mod has done something to Morgan's Explore imperative. In my mod he's Explore, Build and Cha Dawn is Explore, Conquer. The Gaians are straight Explore ordinarily. That's one of the pure foci that actually works, just due to what's in the different parts of the tech tree. Pure Conquer also works for some factions, such as the Usurpers because they have directed research. Maybe it works for the Spartans, maybe it doesn't. That's been debatable in my recent test games.
Another possibility is, Thinker mod doesn't use Explore imperatives, it has its own algorithm. And it's done something to ruin its own algorithm. I would have expected at least the Morganites to be up to 12 cities by now, based on previous games. I'll have to check other games to see where things were really at in 53 turns.
previous game MY 2172 - likely center of world power |
In my previous game with the February development version of Thinker mod, it took until 2158 to even make contact with anybody. I met Morgan in 2164. He had a large empire in 2172, and so did the Peacekeepers. I can't tell how large, but large enough that I marked it as the "likely center of world power". Despite both factions starting to enter the Monsoon Jungle, neither were jungle driven. The AI is clearly doing very poorly this game at spreading, compared to last game. So poorly, that I wonder how much this is going to be worth testing.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 04:58:32 PM
WinMerge says my terranx_mod.exe is identical to the one in the .zip file. And my thinker.dll. And my thinker.ini.
Of course I am using my alphax.txt, not the one from Thinker mod. Does Thinker mod turn its code off and revert to stock binary, if it doesn't see its own alphax.txt?
Otherwise, my installation is valid. I already did "Show Version Number" at the beginning of this thread and it's still the same as that.
clearly bad strategy |
This doesn't look good. Nobody should be building a Recreation Commons before they've spread out some and it's really worth going vertical rather than horizontal.
And, the city has run itself out of SUPPORT. Maybe Thinker mod doesn't realize that going Green in my mod gives you -1 SUPPORT. However it should in general understand the implications of negative support, as in the stock game, Democratic is -2 SUPPORT. Also, in the stock game the Morganites themselves start with -1 SUPPORT. In my mod they do not, everyone starts with 0 SUPPORT.
Saved game attached, but please don't tell me about non-ally factions as I'm still in the middle of this. Not quite ready to give up on it, but if the AI isn't obviously growing somewhere in 20 turns, I say it's borked.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 05:44:34 PM
hey if you really want me to command you |
The Believers told me the Free Drones had Synthetic Fossil Fuels, which I don't have. Thinking that the Cyborgs might not have any tech, I contact them next. Actually they have a lot of tech, different from mine, and we trade a lot. We trade so much that they give me the ability to make the Command Nexus. I find that incautious. I saw similar behavior out of Zhakarov last game. Also weird is her attitude is Ambivalent. We sign a Treaty.
The Cyborgs and Free Drones are at war. The Free Drones sign a Treaty with me. They sell me Synthetic Fossil Fuels for 125 credits, and the comm frequency for the Pirates. They sign a Treaty. They are working on the Weather Paradigm and won't trade or sell tech.
I don't call an election because I have 12 votes to Svensgaard's 49. The Pirates at least are growing as expected.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 06:58:52 PM
My 2161. I capture my 1st Isle. I buy Industrial Base from Morgan, which makes Democratic and Recycling Tanks available. In my mod Democratic gives you +1 ECONOMY, so it's not crazy. I'm going to stick with Police State for now though. Gotta make sure people wrap the plastic can holders around their necks properly! I start making Recycling Tanks in most cities. This is a point at which I have a tendency to stop expanding, but I need to remember to keep going for a bit.
Free Drones ok empire |
I sold a bunch of comm frequencies to Morgan and he obtained maps for us. The Free Drones look ok.
landlubbers |
So do the Pirates.
nerds |
So do the Cyborgs.
oh ye of little faith |
The Believers are lousy, just like the Morganites and Cult of Planet. These are the first 3 factions on the graph. Is there any possibility that some setting for "use Thinker AI for factions" has been turned off for 3 of them? There's nothing wrong with thinker.ini, it says:
Code: [Select]
; Enable Thinker AI for all computer factions up to this slot number.
; 0 = disable for all, 7 = enable for all
factions_enabled=7
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 07:17:18 PM
I try to get Svensgaard to call off his war against Sister Miriam. He claims she has to be convinced. I wonder if he's lying? Miriam has no social compulsions in my mod. She's the only AI faction with complete free will. That said, she is Aggressive and has +1 MORALE. She shouldn't seek to make war with the Pirates, who clearly outclass her, but perhaps she does anyways.
Need a nap in real life.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 09:06:30 PM
all hail the hypocrite |
MY 2169. As predicted, Morgan ends it. He's still Green! I was trying to walk a horde of mindworms north of his territory to explore new lands, but they've all come home now. I have quite the home guard if he makes any trouble.
I cash 4 Artifacts and 196 credits to rush the rest of the Command Nexus. Early Secret Projects cost 300 in my mod, and none come before Tech Tier 3. The Cyborgs originally gave me this tech, and a couple of turns ago finally started working on it. Perfectly happy to shut them out.
Post by: bvanevery on March 16, 2019, 09:22:30 PM
nice knowin' ya |
Cha Dawn blows me off.
MY 2174. Svensgaard wants to talk to me at sea. He wants me to attack the Believers, and I refuse. I also refuse the tech he wants to beg from me, seeing as how he's Unsurpassed and I never give those to anyone anyways. Then I ask him to call off his war with the Believers. He does so. Then I ask him for a Pact. He asks if I'll attack the Believers, and I say no. He then signs the Pact. Yeah AI, get your brain in gear about who you're fighting now. The Believers are no strategic threat to Svensgaard anyways, it's silly.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 01:41:19 AM
you're stupid enough to be lovable |
What's with these factions giving away techs that still have Secret Projects unbuilt? I've seen Zhakarov do it, Aki-Zeta5 do it, and Svensgaard do it. It's like they don't care. I'm beginning to think this is a change in Thinker mod vs. the stock binary. I spent a lot of time moving Secret Projects around in my tech tree to provide barriers to the AI trading anything. For months in my test games, the AI factions wouldn't trade stuff like this. And now they are.
The only other thing I can think of, is the game thinks I'm poor as dirt and need the help. That's not so true in this game, although Svensgaard is definitely ahead of me in tech. Not in all tech, I've gotten things he hasn't, but he has more techs than I do.
MY 2190. I sign a Pact with the Drones.
an expensive condenser |
Ok, this is my 1st evidence that the AI will build Condensers even when they cost twice as much. I can't really see Svensgaard's empire to know how many he's got. I can only poke at individual cities. I'm starting to realize that a big squarish green bit is a pretty big clue on the map. He has built at least 5. 2 of them are badly placed right next to each other on a diagonal. The algorithm is not paying attention to the ongoing area effect of raininess.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 01:52:18 AM
the usual condensers |
MY 2196. I've been flying my Gun Jet over my ally's territory. Doubling the cost of Condensers clearly doesn't stop the AI from making them in the usual Thinker pattern.
MY 2198. My fleet of Isles is really impressive. Well, it feels impressive. I've got 5. They're really cleaning out the oceans. The AI may have Condenser abuse, but I have Supply Pod abuse.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 02:10:54 AM
Nexus up for grabs |
MY 2199. I've discovered the Manifold Nexus on a large deserted island continent in the middle of the map. Guess I go colonize it.
MY 2220. I rush the Planetary Datalinks with 2 Artifacts and cash. I have 7 more Artifacts inbound on Isles.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 02:42:31 AM
crawling on land is the Pirate way |
MY 2225. I saw Svensgaard move a supply crawler. Checking his unit sheet, he has 7 active and 7 in production. Boreholes cannot be far behind as Industrial Automation gives both of those and the Skunkworks. Myself, I switch to Wealth as I've been unthreatened by anything this whole game. Time to build my Tree Farms.
who's the builder |
The power graph doesn't think much of me, but I've actually built more Secret Projects than the other factions. That's what supply pod abuse will do for you.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 03:40:50 AM
I rush the Maritime Control Center with 1 Artifact and a lot of cash. Svensgaard started working on it.
MY 2213. At least I finally captured that Sealurk that sunk my stuff. I don't see any Boreholes in Svensgaard's lands yet. Mines and crawlers, yes.
Going to bed.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 05:10:09 AM
MY 2214. The Pirates are now at war with the Morganites. Seems they've been at war with the Believers. Fighting either doesn't really have any value to me as they were both runts and haven't built any Secret Projects. My Isle navy is starting to feel useless as I've cleaned out the big ocean that encompasses most of the map. I could transport a few units to do additional exploration on a far northern land mass, but I don't need most of these Isles. In general I have a problem of... placidity. Aside from building Tree Farms it's not clear what I should be doing with myself.
I guess I should try to settle the Manifold Nexus again. At least by the time I do so, the entire island continent will be picked clean of supply pods.
I get Svensgaard to call off his war with the Morganites.
MY 2117. The Drones attacked the Cyborgs. I was allied with both of them. Aki came whining to me. I refused to go to war. She immediately ended our Pact. I didn't get a chance to try to calm everyone down, and now I don't care.
MY 2218. I get the Believers to call off their war with the Pirates.
MY 2219. I learn Industrial Automation. I could do Boreholes now! Do I want to? Not really. I think it would be wiser to make Mines first. I do start a Skunkworks.
I have turned all Flat Moist and Rolling Arid squares into forest. I even turned some Rolling Moist squares into forest on the border with the Cult of Planet, to keep any probe teams out. My Former fleet is lacking things to do. I suppose I could make Soil Enrichers but they're expensive.
the hypocrite declares war |
At least he is Capitalist now. He has 1 tech to steal, which might come to me via the Planetary Datalinks soon anyways. Let's see how he feels after I destroy a sea base.
MY 2220. Sure enough, I get Bioadaptive Resonance from the Planetary Datalinks. I start working on the Neural Amplifier.
MY 2221. I gain Centauri Meditation and start working on the Xenoempathy Dome.
MY 2222. The Pirates are rushing the Xenoempathy Dome. So if I want it, I have to finish it now. If I only finish that, then the Pirates will complete the Neural Amplifier. I think the Dome is better. I'm not concerned with fighting the Pirates any time soon, so they could have the Amplifier. I spend 1000 credits and 1 Artifact to rush the Xenoempathy Dome.
My Isle easily destroys Morgan's Resonance sea base defender. I destroy his size 1 base. He brashly expects me to pay him to stop our war. I guess he needs his butt kicked some more. ;buttdance ;morganercise He doesn't have any more sea bases, so that will require either ground troops or waiting. I suppose I do have mindworms but I don't want to use the independent ones. Probably I just ignore him until he makes another sea base.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 05:32:38 AM
The Drones want me to join their war against the Cyborgs. I refuse. They immediately cancel my Pact. I never got a chance to calm either one of them down. Fine, let them fight.
very expensive Boreholes |
Aha! The AI will make Boreholes even when they cost 60. Which is not what Svensgaard is paying for them anyways, as he's got the Weather Paradigm. I think he pays 30? Which is not much more than the stock game cost of 24. But if other AI factions find them to be too expensive to bother with in the real world, that's a good thing. Better to only have 1 faction going nuts than several.
The halving from the Weather Paradigm, makes me realize that 30 is not a very good number to cut in half. I'm changing raise/lower land to 36.
Heck while I'm at it, I'm raising the Borehole cost to 72. The Weather Paradigm turns it into 36 for somebody.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 06:30:29 AM
I experience the tech tree as a progression. When I get something, I'd like to be able to make use of it. Otherwise why am I doing research at all? If I get Recycling Tanks, and it's not too early in the game, then I want to build them. That takes time. On such things, the AI is kind of like a fuel injected engine, vs. me pedaling a bicycle! Riding a bicycle can be a perfectly pleasant experience. But if you insist upon behaving according to the standards of a race car, it sucks. Bike gets run off the road, people honk at you...
I don't want to play the game the way the AI is playing, and I don't want to be forced to do it either. How can the AI force me to play the game on its terms? It can, if its style is absolutely an order of magnitude more productive than my style. Like if its strategy eventually allows it to get Secret Projects instantly, and I have no hope of keeping up. Or if I'd have to clean up hundreds of units to win the game, and I just won't spend the mouseclicks on that much conquest. The AI can force you to deal with its scale. If the AI fully controls and dominates the scale of the game, it becomes deeply unpleasant for a human such as myself.
Maybe not for all types of players. But definitely for myself. I do not enjoy large scale repetitive tasks, and I think most 4X TBS gamers don't either. Some do, however. They eat the stuff like candy. I don't know if it's meditation or compulsion for them or what they're getting out of it, but it ain't me. Maybe it's an age thing. I've certainly done grinding in RPGs when I was younger, but I was way younger. Like I hadn't seen much before. We were thrilled to have anything that worked, back in the day. I have more taste and concern for my time now.
So, I don't think it's wrong that my empire is only 15 cities in MY 2227. This is a human aesthetic and attention span scale to play the game at. I have a nice, dense empire. I have terraformed every square by hand - some people think that's a drag. It's how I relate to the game, building my railroads and forests. There's a point at which I'm not going to do that stuff anymore, where I've done enough doo dads. I don't care if Thinker mod AI is willing to do 5x or 10x more of these terraforming tasks than I am. It's a computer.
A big design problem for me is what scale can the human exist at, and compete with the "AI repetitive scale" of tasks. I feel like we're almost at parity when I'm abusing Artifacts, because the AI doesn't know how to do that. It knows how to abuse other things.
Now though, the Pirates are threatening to slip away into that dread world where they just get whatever they want. Doesn't really matter what I do. They just get tech tech tech tech tech. They just bang out the Secret Projects immediately. It's not quite here yet, but I feel it coming.
And there's a point at which, the game just falls off the rails for me. It ceases to be fun, it threatens to be exhausting.
At a minimum, I might have to make the Weather Paradigm much harder to obtain, just because of this AI. I didn't previously have much of a problem with it, as it was just something I could do in a single player game. Other people howled bloody murder about it though, what an awful SP it was. And now I'm starting to see what they were talking about. If you're forced to live in an environment of Borehole abusers, it becomes very unpleasant to have production speeds cut in half.
Post by: bvanevery on March 17, 2019, 07:56:03 PM
- Condensers - raised the cost to 36 turns and moved to B5 Advanced Ecological Engineering. This is because doubling their cost clearly didn't stop the AI from doing its usual exploitation. It may have slowed it down some, but in my opinion not enough. A much harder brake needs to be put on this, and the only realistic option is to make them take longer to get. Some factions have already made them and of course will get to keep the ones they've got. They might not be able to make new ones until they research this tech. Some factions may not have made any and will have to wait to make any.
- Soil Enrichers - I'm actually dropping the cost of these from 8 to 6. I've always hated waiting around for them. I don't even like 6, but it's conservative and comparable to building a Solar Collector. I don't know if the AI even builds these, but if it does, it compensates for Condensers being more expensive. Still, Soil Enrichers are a tier 5 tech in my mod, coming with B5 Planetary Economics. All the "environmental abuse" techs - Boreholes, Condensers, and supply crawlers - are tier 5 now. In my mod it takes a long time to get to tier 5, it's late midgame.
- The Weather Paradigm - raised the cost from 300 to 400 minerals. That's comparable to the Empath Guild, which also comes later. I'm not willing to move the Weather Paradigm from where it is, because part of its value is enabling techs earlier. Many people feel these Secret Projects are overpowered, and in general, all overpowered SPs cost more in my mod. It cuts terraforming completion time to 2/3rds, I misspoke earlier. Still that's a big advantage, as is getting terraforming techs early that otherwise take a rather long time to get in my mod. In this game the Weather Paradigm has already been built, so it doesn't matter for this test.
- Boreholes - raised the cost to 72 turns. When they were 60, we saw the Pirates build them. They had the Weather Paradigm, so they took 60 * 2/3 = 40 turns to complete. It has slowed down the Borehole spam, but the AI is clearly willing to build a 40 turn Borehole. I want to know if it's willing to build a 72 turn Borehole. The Weather Paradigm dynamic means that some faction will only pay 48 turns for them, and we can reasonably infer that the AI will be willing to do it. Furthermore it comes at a time in the game when Super Formers will soon be appearing. The actual turn cost with a new fleet of Super Formers would be 24 or 36 turns. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of forcing a faction to build some Super Formers before bothering with Thermal Boreholes. It's how I have to live my life as a human player.
The Condenser change is disruptive to "food conclusions", but I still want to test other things about this game. Like whether the military defense is ok or not. Not worth starting over.
Post by: bvanevery on March 18, 2019, 01:01:23 AM
Oh goody, I see that Morgan has founded a new sea base. I can destroy it, possibly forcing him into a Truce. I send my meager Plasma Cutter to eliminate it. Cruisers move 8 in my mod, and I have the Maritime Control Center so I move 10.
Using a series of strategically positioned Isles, I convoy a Colony Pod all the way to the site of the Manifold Nexus in 1 turn.
MY 2232. By destroying Morgan's new sea base, I get him to sign a Treaty. Now I don't need to bother with an Impact Hovertank invasion.
the Nexus is mine |
I finally have control of the Manifold Nexus. I am +4 PLANET, fierce in Psi combat. I'll admit, I don't really know what I'm doing with myself now. I'm at peace with everybody. Competing with Svensgaard I suppose?
I've been planning to go Democratic for some time and I think now it's time. I've completed all my Tree Farms and have cities with nothing better to do than make Fusion Speeder Supplies. To keep people happy I adjust my budget to 30-30-40. I've never built Recreation Commons so I will do that now. Thanks to the Ascetic Virtues I only have -1 POLICE, enabling me to use 1 unit as police.
I buy Single-Sided Surfaces from the Cyborgs for 150 credits. That gives Pulse armor. I'm thinking I wouldn't get it from the Planetary Datalinks, as not enough factions know the tech.
Post by: bvanevery on March 18, 2019, 02:21:39 AM
Cha Dawn has a death wish |
MY 2233. I think I'll just wipe him out. He's adjacent and it'll be an ok incorporation into my empire. It's something to do and I'll never have to be bothered by him again. And if Morgan acts up again, I can then do the same thing to him, because he'll be adjacent. I won't lose focus on competing with Svensgaard for Secret Projects being my 1st priority though.
MY 2234. The Pirates want war with the Drones. I refuse. I ask him to stop the war, but he says the Drones have to agree. He signs off before I can beg him for tech. I contact the Drones and ask them to stop their wars with the Pirates and the Cyborgs. They comply. I buy Bio-Engineering from him, so now I'm Genejack Factory capable.
MY 2236. I trade Single-Sided Surfaces to Svensgaard for Eudaimonia. Now I can pop boom. I switch to Eudaimonic. I'm not really invading Cha Dawn yet. I'm building Genejack Factories and murdering his interlopers on my border.
The Cyborgs are snitty with me for my choice, but I buy Superconductor from them. They're in a war with the Believers. I ask them to stop because I'm trying to win a Nobel Peace Prize. They say the Believers have to agree. The Believers won't talk to me.
MY 2237. I go Socialist, which will now trigger a pop boom. I buy piles of useful techs from Svensgaard. I'm actually caught up with him now. I only have 20 credits left though. I do have a lot of supply crawlers in the field though, so I could still intervene in a Secret Project. He's not working on anything yet.
a long walk back |
MY 2238. I've popped the last of the supply pods on land, except perhaps for a few buried under fungal stalks. A hovertank truck would be useful for bringing this one home, but by the time I got that up there, I'll probably have already walked to the coast. Originally I thought perhaps I'd teleport everyone back by making enemies. I suppose that could still happen.
he likes Boreholes |
Svensgaard has begun the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm, so it's time to pop Artifacts and see if I can intervene. With his base alone, he only needs 6 turns to complete! Notice the Borehole. I don't think it was there before.
Boreholes are like chicken pox |
Domai has got one too. He doesn't have the Weather Paradigm, so I know he paid at least 60 turns for that.
With my 1st Artifact pop, I obtain the tech for the Empath Guild. I'd like to actually block Svensgaard from getting the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm though. 2nd Artifact pop yields Cyberethics, enabling the Virtual World. 3rd pop yields the Supercollider. 4th pop yields the Universal Translator. My last Artifact is deep in the north and won't be available any time soon. So I guess I'm working on these. I start the Virtual World because it is among the cheapest. After using up all my supply crawlers I need 248 cash to complete it. I only have 83.
Post by: bvanevery on March 18, 2019, 03:40:41 AM
I hate this guy |
MY 2240. Svensgaard begins the Empath Guild. I can't gain a moment's peace! I switch to Green because most of my cities have hit size 9. The Ascetic Virtues lets me get that large, but I haven't built any Hab Complexes.
MY 2241. I meet Domai at sea. He bothers me about his war with the Pirates. I ask him to call it off, and he does. I disband a lot of Formers and Very Green Trance Scouts to bring a number of my Genejack Factories to completion.
I hate this guy even more |
MY 2242. The Pirates' tech and Secret Project spam is really irritating me. Looking at their individual cities, I think they have about 12 Boreholes. I might chuck this game in not too long, to see if the new Condenser delay will bring it under control. All I'm doing now is playing the "Svensgaard gets nearly everything" game, which I don't consider fun. Even though I grabbed most of the supply pods on the map.
Post by: bvanevery on March 18, 2019, 05:14:45 AM
My Genejack Factories are starting to chuck out supply crawlers at a good clip. Almost all of the time, they produce a Fusion Speeder Supply in 1 turn and can't do any larger denomination than that. Still this is enough to rush the Empath Guild this turn. I have 105 credits remaining. I start the Universal Translator.
I've had a lot of fungal pops. I'm surprised I haven't seen any mindworms to go with them. Does +4 PLANET have any advantage here?
MY 2244. I rush the Supercollider. Cha Dawn is hassling me with a lot of trivial units. Unfortunately I've lost my independent mindworms to attrition. I still have a lot of spore launchers and some artillery, which is not scratching them all that hard. Probably has to do with m -3 MORALE.
MY 2245. I rush the Universal Translator. I think about trading techs with Svensgaard, but we're in sunspots.
MY 2246. With the Universal Translator completed I learn the tech for the Dream Twister, which Svensgaard is still working on. However I started working on Hab Complexes in all my cities. I can also build the Cloudbase Academy now. As I have +5 JUSTICE I shift my budget to 50-30-20 without any penalty. Now I make 300 credits/turn.
MY 2247. Cha Dawn is bothering me with more serious force now. Stuff that Trance Scouts aren't going to hold up to. I should have been able to convoy some mindworms back from the north by now, but I am tired, and distracted by a lot of the crap going on. I botched my convoying technique and it's taking multiple turns to get done.
I think I want to kill these guys |
The Pirates complete the Dream Twister the turn before I was going to. If I wasn't so tired, and was willing to perform heroics with scraping up money, I could have come up with the measly 50 credits I was short. I am way too jaded to play the turn over again. I switch to the Cloudbase Academy.
but you can call me Noah |
I'm being blamed for the global warming. Of course I'm merely trying to keep up with the Pirates. Who are ridiculous, and would have completely submerged the planet if they got penalized for eco-damage like I do. Nevermind the Drones who are almost as bad. I gain a lot of cash from killing the mindworms that showed up.
I get my convoying technique right this time and bring some reinforcements and an Artifact all the way home. Since it's sunspots, I can't trade with anyone for tech, so I cash it. I gain Digital Sentience and can make the Network Backbone. That will be a priority, but first I will finish the Cloudbase Academy. I rush that with cash and still have 960 credits afterwards. I rush the Genejack Factory in the city I'm trying to turn into my capitol. I will build the Network Backbone there.
Ah crap the Pirates are already building the Network Backbone. I hate this.
Post by: bvanevery on March 18, 2019, 05:52:22 AM
my pet volcano |
MY 2250. I rush the Network Backbone. I forgot to mention this nice volcano that erupted earlier, even before the global flooding started. I've never seen it join to land before. I wonder if it's coincidence that it destroyed most of the New Sargasso.
MY 2251. With the completion of the Network Backbone, I could switch to Cybernetic and take no penalty for doing so. However it would only reduce my research from 12 turns to 11 turns. At least, that's true under a 50-30-20 budget. I change it to 30-30-40 instead, since I need a new Secret Project. Now my research is 9 turns, but switching to Cybernetic would only drop it to 8 turns. Not worth it. I switch to Socialist and trigger a pop boom.
Post by: bvanevery on March 18, 2019, 06:26:04 AM
the tally at quitting time part one |
the tally at quitting time part two |
It's 2 AM. Know what? I'm done. This is extremely boring. Late night yawning has a way of fully informing me how boring something is. I've quit many games in the 2 to 3 AM time interval, not even worth a save, because they're just a drag.
This is not a military exercise. This is treading water, dealing with Svensgaard's minerals, tech, and Secret Project spam. I don't feel like I get to do anything else.
As you can see, I actually did fine at the Secret Project races. I got 13. The Pirates got 7 and will get 9. The Cyborgs got 2. The Free Drones got shut out, despite having no faction growth disadvantages at all.
I want to know if making Condensers come later will stop the madness. I suspect it won't. I don't really have any more options that way though. I'm not going to make food infinitely expensive for the sake of Thinker mod. In the limit, if I can't balance it somehow, I'll just decide it's a drag and not play it.
Since I'm running out of options, I think it's time to penalize supply crawlers. I'd like the Fusion versions to be worth the same as Artifacts. That won't change Secret Project races all that much, although it will introduce higher startup latency. It will penalize having lots of crawlers in the field though. More to produce, and more expensive if they get killed. Also if the base model is more expensive, it will also be more expensive to armor them against dangers. In my book that's a good thing.