Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 01:50:15 AM
Based on a test game, I have reason to believe that it doesn't, in some circumstance at least. I made the following change to the settings, in order to have the AI play with no bonuses or penalties on Transcend difficulty:
Code: [Select]
; Set AI cost factors for mineral/nutrient production for each difficulty level respectively.
; All other difficulty level modifiers remain unaffected by this setting.
cost_factor=13,12,11,10,8,10
; Changed Transcend from 7 to 10. AI is too competent at colonizing and resource management.
I know I started a game with this setting, and verified that all the AI factions were indeed getting rows of 10 nutrients for growth, and 10 minerals for production. All seemed well.
Then I started the test game I actually played. I did not verify anything at the beginning, because I didn't have infiltration with anybody, and I wanted to play the game properly. I do not remember if I ever verified things early in the game. The Usurpers started right next to me and seemed to do relatively poorly, so I assumed the minerals and nutrients were set to 10. I played it a lot yesterday, doing a writeup as I was playing. Eventually I got tired, went to bed, and saved my game. I also may have saved and loaded once or twice due to some gameplay save scumming stuff.
Today I noticed that the nutrients and minerals were actually set to 7, as though the cost_factor had been ignored, or possibly reset. Theories:
- It never worked in the game I played, and I just didn't notice? Odd because it did work at the beginning of a different game. Could it have to do with entering the app for the 1st time, vs. restarting a game from the menus?
- It did work, but stopped working when I saved and loaded?
- It stopped working for a seemingly random, fairly devious reason?
I am now remembering, I changed game save directories at one point, because I wanted to see whether eco-damage was the same in Thinker mod as in the stock binary. It was; mission accomplished. I wonder if this could have affected the path to thinker.ini somehow? Like if it doesn't believe thinker.ini is available due to directory shenanigans, does it resort to default values?
I can't remember if I continued playing from that save or not. Anyways, onwards to the test, to make sure diagnosis does not depend on memory.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 02:14:14 AM
Quite apart from Thinker mod or my mod, the game gives a huge cheating pass to the AI on eco-damage. A human player on Transcend will suffer catastrophic losses from doing too much eco-damage, and the AI will get the lightest of slaps on the wrist. I've verified in another thread that there's at least a 3X difference in eco-damage done. This doesn't matter with the stock binary, because the AI doesn't know how to terraform all that effectively.
Thinker mod totally changes that, giving the AI the knowledge and capability of the worst kind of supply crawler and borehole abusing minimaxer. A lot of eco-damage should get done with such a strategy, were a human to do it. That's why we humans don't do it. But the AI gets a pass, and now with Thinker mod, it's turned into this huge, amplified cheat for the AI. It's pretty much the golden path through the game now. You either adopt a strategy like this yourself, or you die.
Thinker mod is also really good at early colony spreading. Too good. In my mod, I nerfed the Aliens so that they are no more powerful than other factions. Yet, because they start with 3 colony pods instead of 2, in Thinker mod they are usually ending up with 18 cities when other AI factions have 12. There is some debate about whether starting resources were just more favorable in the cases I observed, so I'll be paying attention to that too.
The excessive colony spreading should be solved easily enough: set cost_factor to 10 rather than 7. AI nutrient bonus goes away. Thinker mod might make the colonists scurry better, and they could still do well, but it should be "fair" compared to human play. Instead of just suffering through a game where I know the AI was given huge boosts, that really really mattered at the beginning of the game.
With colony spreading and production normalized, I want to see if the eco-damage cheat is still a huge problem or not. Does the AI stomp me, because it doesn't have to pay for all its polluting factories? (Kinda like negotiating currency valuation with China.) Or do they merely have an advantage, and it's in the realm of the acceptable? I was trying to find out, when I ran into the problem of whether cost_factor was working at all.
For my test game, I will take a random faction. Before, I chose Cha Dawn to maximize my PLANET rating and save me eco-damage, but I'm thinking that's not actually necessary now. I will play against the Pirates, the Caretakers, the Usurpers, and 3 other random factions. I want those 3 in the game as they benchmark important things. In my mod, when combined with Thinker mod, the Pirates are clearly the economic runaway. They are Passive and focus on Wealth. They just sit back and rake in all those delicious sea mineral bonuses they get. No need to conquer anybody when you've got a moat and inherent wealth like that! The Aliens, they test whether starting with 3 colony pods instead of 2 is game breaking under Thinker.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 02:30:39 AM
After doing so, I think to check my "Alpha Centauri.ini" file for any weird save path. It has:
Code: [Select]
Latest Save=C:\GOG Games\Thinker and AI Growth\saves\Cha Dawn of the Planet Cult, 2206That's normal. That's the directory I made for combining both Thinker and my AI Growth mod.Huge map. 30%..50% land mass, using my world generator settings. Such maps never have small islands, are mostly continental in shape, and have large oceans in case Pirates are in play. Average settings. Transcend difficulty. cost_factor in thinker.ini is 10:
Code: [Select]
; Set AI cost factors for mineral/nutrient production for each difficulty level respectively.
; All other difficulty level modifiers remain unaffected by this setting.
cost_factor=13,12,11,10,8,10
; Changed Transcend from 7 to 10. AI is too competent at colonizing and resource management.
I draw the Spartans. Pirates, Caretakers, Usurpers, Cyborgs, Peacekeepers, and Hive are in play. Based on previous experience I'm expecting the Cyborgs to be weaker than the others, but otherwise I really couldn't tell you. I'm still living with the consequences of rebalancing the factions in my mod. Those others could all be strong factions.
The Spartans only get +2 MORALE in my mod, no other bonuses. However they also don't get any penalties. On larger maps, if they start out isolated it's the worst case really. They have no advantage for sitting back and making a good empire. They need to find a victim.
So, if I thought I was going to ape Thinker's play style and cough out boreholes and supply crawlers, well we'll see how it really goes. I think it's going to be logistics dependent. I could certainly take over someone else's nicely constructed boreholes.
Before I make any move I save my game, in case I need to check it later. Attached.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 03:37:52 AM
This turn I finally popped a comm frequency from a supply pod. It's for the Pirates. They offer a Pact if I go to war with the Usurpers. I have an ulterior motive for saying yes: I want to see how many nutrients and minerals are in a row of Svensgaard's cities! This is the quickest way.
It doesn't hurt that I need a lot of his techs as well. In my mod the Spartans have a pure Conquer focus by default, and I kept that, to see how it would go. Lately I've started feeling a need for a Recreation Commons though. We trade, and he thinks I'm a weakling, so he even gives me a tech for free. Ironically, the one thing I don't get out of him is Social Psych!
friendly pirates to the east |
Looks like I would have contacted him soon anyways. Now let's see what his nutrients and minerals look like.
aarg me hearty minerals |
Nutrients are correct, 10 per row. Minerals are at 9 per row. They are Democratic Capitalist Survival, which gives +0 GROWTH and +1 INDUSTRY, so that's also correct.
Now I save the game. Everything is working correctly right now. Attached.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 03:48:49 AM
aarg save me minerals |
Still working.
Now I quit SMAC completely. I start the game "cold" again. I load my game. I check Safe Haven:
aarg I eats me spinach |
Still working. So it doesn't appear to be anything as trivial as a start, save, or load issue. I guess now I just wait and see, checking on the nutrients and minerals every so often. Maybe the whole problem was triggered by my save / load interaction with a different SMAC installation. If so, that's not worth chasing down, as nobody would be doing that regularly in the real world. I will refrain from trying to perform that experiment for some time, in favor of just playing this test game.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 05:10:03 AM
MY 2162. More mindworms keep coming up from the south. They badly wounded my Ogre and they trashed one of my Formers. Belatedly I realize I just traded for Centauri Empathy and am Trance capable, so it's time to cough out a lot of Trance Scouts.
MY 2164. Svensgaard sells me Biogenetics for 100 credits and then cuts me off. This is a groaner! I didn't even get a chance to make him give me the Caretaker commlink frequency for free.
MY 2166. I get the commlink frequency out of him. The Caretakers talk, then just declare war on me without preliminaries. They are adjacent to the Pirates, just east of them. For now I won't bother Svensgaard about it, as he may get a map out of them. Also, the Caretakers are in no position to do anything to me. They'd have to go through sea, then land. Or else cross the north pole.
MY 2169. !@#$#!$@!! Now he won't sell to me because he's working on the Weather Paradigm. You idiot, I don't care about that, I want Social Psych! Well maybe there's a Police State in my future. Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. I go Green to prepare for the hit in Justice it'll give me. I also need to do much more exploring. I think I'm alone on this continent except for 1 Pirate base.
MY 2171. I capture my 1st Isle and my 1st Spore Launcher.
MY 2172. A 2nd Spore Launcher destroys my 1st and wounds my Synthmetal Speeder, but I capture a mindworm.
MY 2174. He trades me Field Modulation for my Adaptive Doctrine. Both are C2 techs. I'm never gonna learn Social Psych.
MY 2183. Svensgaard gives me the frequency of the Cyborgs. We sign a Treaty but they won't trade any techs. They sell me the frequency of the Peacekeepers. They sell me C3 Applied Physics, which in my mod is a strength 3 weapon. But... unbelievable, they do not know Social Psych! They're the freakin' Peacekeepers and have an Explore, Conquer research focus. How do they manage to not know this?
I'd walk a mile for a Nexus |
I discover the Manifold Nexus some distance south of me, seemingly in unclaimed territory. Guess I'm heading there.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 05:48:35 AM
gonna run through the jungle |
MY 2193. A dimensional gate dropped me in the Monsoon Jungle. It appears to be unclaimed.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 07:22:44 AM
MY 2210. I sign a Pact with the Peacekeepers, simply because he's willing to do it. I'm a Police State and not planning to change soon. I get a map of both Peacekeeper and Hive territory.
Pirate land bridge |
MY 2217. The Pirates have used the Weather Paradigm to build a land bridge directly to Caretaker territory. I now have a direct invasion route. I will need to build a rail to push troops that way though. I've completed a rail to all of my cities except 1 outlying one, and that's almost done. I've already started building a lot of Rover Formers for lack of anything else to do.
On the graph, the Pirates are more than twice as strong as everyone else. Everyone else is roughly equal.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 10:12:25 AM
MY 2230. I steal the tech for the Xenoempathy Dome from the Caretakers, and I complete it.
MY 2236. I complete the Neural Amplifier.
MY 2238. I decide to go Democratic, since I'm really only throwing probe teams at the Caretakers to mess up their Perimeter Defenses. I don't actually want to take any of their cities, and I stole all their techs. I'm not sure how much longer I'll do Green. It's been profitable, and it's how I trashed a few Caretaker cities, but I am the Spartans and could be doing chemical warfare on the Aliens. I've almost run out of continental supply pods to pop.
Doing a nutrient and minerals check, everything is still working.
5 AM, going to bed!
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 04:37:50 PM
no daycare in paradise |
MY 2245. My Peacekeepers get an inherent +2 GROWTH for their faction alone. They have chosen Democratic Socialist Survival, which gives another +2 GROWTH for Socialist. So in cities without a Children's Creche, they have +4 GROWTH, and show rows of 6 nutrients. They also show the correct number of minerals, 10 per row.
Peace is booming |
Cities with a Children's Creche have 5 nutrients per row. Since the net GROWTH for the city is +6, I was wondering why it wouldn't be 4 nutrients per row. It looks like GROWTH bonuses are capped at +50%, per the table in alphax.txt. What I'm actually looking at, is a population boom.
who has got the power |
In my mod, Peacekeeper population booms are by design. That's one of their major faction weapons, and in my playtesting over the past several months, it hasn't resulted in imbalance. Luscious Pirate kelp is probably still more powerful! In this game the Peacekeepers are the nominal #2 faction after the Pirates, but they're not rated much better than the Hive and the Cyborgs, who are tied for #3 and #4. I'm at #5. The Caretakers are a diminished #6, and the Usurpers a scrawny #7.
kelp or slurry |
The Pirates are not pop booming. They simply have that much food. Thinker mod might be doing a better job of balancing minerals vs. energy in Pirate cities. The stock binary tends to obsess about minerals. The Pirates have chosen Democratic Socialist Wealth, giving them +2 GROWTH. With a Children's Creche in a city it becomes +4.
Post by: bvanevery on March 03, 2019, 11:30:41 PM
I'm just hassling the Caretakers, gradually wearing down 1 of their cities, and destroying the Perimeter Defenses of the rest. The latter may soon cease as I think I've trained all my probe teams to Elite. I'm not going to waste Elite teams on meager operations like this, as my teams only start out Hardened.
Unfortunately my buddy Svensgaard signed a Treaty with the Caretakers. I could bug him about attacking, but it's not strictly necessary. They're still at war with the Usurpers, who are slightly eating up the Caretakers from the other side. The Pirates are a land buffer between the Caretakers and myself, so I have a completely free ride, just attacking with a stack of mindworms guarded by an ECM 3-Pulse unit on a Monolith. It's a rather slow, non-chemical way of degrading the Caretakers. If I didn't have anything better to do, I'd make chemical weapons to wipe them out, but I've got Tree Farms to build.
MY 2252. I infiltrate the Usurpers. I wasn't paying good attention to the Secret Project races, and neglected that they're building the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. I send an Elite team to steal Advanced Military Algorithms, which is the tech for that in my mod. There's a lock on the base, but I have a 75% chance of success and don't lose my team.
Now I could choose Power. However I don't really feel like pissing off the Pirates by choosing that. Not yet. It would be rational to take all of the Pirates land bases away though, since they're touching my empire. At present though, I'm building Tree Farms, have only Trance Scouts on defense, and the Pirates are Magnanimous towards me. Heck, maybe I'll stop messing with the Caretakers and go for Wealth. Er, except I can't do that. The Spartans aren't allowed to choose Wealth. Hmm ok maybe I really should invade then!
I also research Industrial Automation. In my mod it's partially a Conquer tech, as it gives the Skunkworks. It also of course gives supply crawlers, and in my mod it allows Boreholes to be built as well. That's because the quote for the tech talks all about boreholes.
Svensgaard has already got the tech, but nobody else does. Looking at his cities, I don't see any boreholes yet. I send an independent Scout to march around his empire and get a better look at everything. If this AI built rails, I'd just zip a probe team around and then come back home, but this AI doesn't build rails. So it's a little manual exploration with a unit that isn't doing anything for me, but that I don't care to lose.
Going Capitalist would get the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm done faster, due to the +1 INDUSTRY bonus in my mod. It would also help with money. I can't really use supply crawlers to finish it because I've got all those Tree Farms in production. Svensgaard completes it in 10 turns and that's not counting if he decides to use supply crawlers. The Cyborgs complete in 14 and 23 turns. The Usurpers are not a serious contender at 30 turns. I need 28 turns without Capitalist, but I know how to use money and shift production around in ways that the AI does not.
Looks like it's a good idea to speed this up, so I go Capitalist and accept that my mindworm exploration rampage is over for now. Credits jump from 77 to 115 per turn. Now I need 22 turns to complete. I rehome a Trance Scout so that I'm not paying any SUPPORT. My production in that city is merely 12 minerals, not all that special. It's a Secret Project I started a long time ago, anticipating the need for something like this.
Post by: bvanevery on March 04, 2019, 12:58:47 AM
Pirates need 8 turns to complete the HSA. Some of my Tree Farms complete, so I start supply crawlers in 3 cities. I need 19 turns and have 455 credits. I would need 880 credits to rush.
MY 2254. The Caretakers surprised me by slaying my ECM 3-Pulse unit with multiple attacks, then destroying my 4 mindworms. Surprising that they didn't do it earlier. Maybe I got too close to a city that had enough of a reserve in it. Oh well, now I don't have to care about what's going on over there! Let them slog it out with the Usurpers, they won't be doing anything that bothers me ever again.
This game is pretty much proof that starting with 3 colonists, isn't any major advantage for the Aliens, at least when cost_factor is at parity with the human player. The Aliens are in last place.
Svensgaard needs 7 turns. I need 832 credits and only have 536.
MY 2255. I popped a pod that I think gave a pile of credits. With only 1 supply crawler used, I spend 636 credits to rush the HSA. Capitalism works!
MY 2256. I complete the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. Now what? Guess I could make a lot of Hovertank Formers and build a rail all the way to the Manifold Nexus. I just don't have it in me to try to kill the Pirates. I don't like backstabbing an ok ally. Maybe just wait until he's not ok, like if I choose Knowledge eventually. Ok, first things first. I'm going to put some proper ECM 3-Pulse garrisons everywhere, so that Svensgaard can't do anything funny.
are boreholes boring |
I do finally see a Pirate borehole. I have 3 extra Supply Crawlers. Wouldn't it be funny if they went and used mines and condensers that the Pirates built but aren't using? I'm doing it!
A more seriously passive aggressive strategy with your "friends", is to plant fungus on them. Unlike pillaging, the game fails to understand it as a hostile act. So arguably, it's an exploit. My own ethics on this sort of thing, is I'm willing to do it to someone I only have a Truce with. I think if we have a Treaty or a Pact, that's straight up cheating. Now, isn't it cheating even with a Truce? Well, debatable. It's perfectly legal to camp on someone's square and deny them the ability to use the resources, under a Truce. Planting fungus is like a camp you can walk away from, that's how I see it.
I'm gonna let my Pirate ally "roll on" with his borehole thing, until such a time as he actually becomes a problem with me. I pretty much have to roleplay being a backstabber, like if I decide I'm going to be a thoroughly evil douchebag Chairman Yang from the very beginning of the game. The Pirates don't currently pose any kind of direct threat to me. Sure they're ahead, but graphs can be misleading that way. I've played plenty of games with AI faction leads like this and I've snuffed them anyways when I wanted to. Things change real fast when you start taking over their cities.
Post by: bvanevery on March 04, 2019, 02:07:17 AM
Instead, I talk to the Cyborgs. They give me Orbital Spaceflight, thinking I'm weak, or really cool, or something. Well I won't forget that generosity! In my mod this also comes with Missile Launchers, so even more useful.
Maybe looking a little weak, is actually useful?
I talk to the Pirates. They sell me Doctrine: Air Power and Cyberethics for 125 each. So I could do Knowledge now. I'm not going to. With allies like this, and tech being sold this cheap, why bother? Let them figure it out, I'll just build Secret Projects at the last minute.
MY 2257. I just realized that Svensgaard sold me Cyberethics without having completed the Virtual World. Why did he do that? Well, whatever, time for me to build it! Seems I can win these races. Thinker AI isn't exactly cutthroat about this.
Svensgaard sells me the Longevity Vaccine. That gives Genejack Factories. I often don't bother with those, but I might this game.
MY 2258. I destroy an empty size 1 Caretaker sea base with an Isle. Then we sign a Treaty. They're still at war with my allies the Cyborgs and the Hive, but I don't have to talk to either of them all that much. The Hive will eventually dump me for my Democratic tendencies anyways.
MY 2260. I infiltrate my ally the Peacekeepers. It was a long way by boat, but Cruisers in my mod have movement 8. Foils have movement 5.
MY 2261. Using mostly supply crawlers and a tiny bit of money, I rush the Virtual World. That was easy! I've decided to build the Genejack Factories. If they make people unhappy, it's an excuse to found new cities.
Yang wants me to declare war on the Caretakers again, and I refuse. Yang wanted me to loan him money, and I refused. Yang ended his Pact with me before I could get a word in edgewise. Not that big a deal, it was inevitable and he's the farthest away from me on the map. Come to think of it, I haven't infiltrated him. Something for that 1 Destroyer Probe Team to do. Another long ocean haul, even farther than the Peacekeepers.
Svensgaard declared war on the Cyborgs at some point. I didn't realize that. I loan the Cyborgs money. I get them to call off their war against the Caretakers. They sign off. I didn't even get to ask them about what I really wanted, Gene Splicing.
I get Svensgaard to call off the war with the Cyborgs. This time I buy Gene Splicing from him for 225 credits. I do have more money now, since it was much easier to get the Virtual World done than I was expecting.
Post by: bvanevery on March 04, 2019, 02:46:28 AM
MY 2263. I gain some instantly completed factories from popping pods out in the ocean.
what have I done to deserve this |
MY 2264. I got a couple of fungal pops, but looks like only 2 life forms. A volcano also erupted. 42 eco-damage from that, good grief! I will switch to Socialist because I still want to keep growing into these new Tree Farms for a bit. It will also make counterattacking the mindworms not suck too badly, even if it isn't Green good. That drops the eco-damage to 21. I scoured the fungal squares and found 2 more mindworms, one of them quite large and hard for me to kill. But kill it I did, at the loss of one scout rover. Time to make some empath units!
So, here we see that what I experience for eco-damage, and what the AI experiences, isn't fair. It remains to be seen if this is a problem for me or not. I will note, I haven't drilled a single borehole. Nor have I built a single mine on a square that doesn't have a resource special. I avoid building mines until the very last, for exactly this reason. It starts to become ok when you've got Hybrid Forests, and I don't have those yet. All I've done is build 2 Genejack Factories, admittedly with more to come. I usually don't do that for the reason you see now, but we'll see how bad it gets. It has changed my behavior, I did feel compelled to go Socialist. If I get whacked again I guess I'll go Green.
I've got some money, so I rush all remaining Tree Farms.
Post by: bvanevery on March 04, 2019, 03:59:15 AM
Centauri Psi and the Pholus mutagen. Yes I can do that! Good timing.
MY 2268. I rush it with cash, some of it from popping sea pods.
MY 2274. Lal wants war with the Cyborgs and I refuse. He terminates our Pact! This has the benefit of teleporting an Artifact and a scout rover home.
MY 2276. I get the Cyborgs to stop their war with the Peacekeepers, and I buy Fusion Power from them. That puts me a bit behind on money. I'm really not making enough under a Socialist government, so I go back to Capitalist. Income jumps from 40 to 118. I have 9 eco-damage in 2 cities, otherwise no issues. I guess the Pholus Mutagen was useful. I have a full pile of Trance AAA 3-Res units guarding everything now, and the Neural Amplifer, so I should be ok.
I checked the cost_factor stuff and everything looks normal.
Going to bed.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 01:29:55 PM
eco warrior |
MY 2277. After a 2 day break, I come back to the game wondering how to resolve it. Taking out the Pirates is the obvious course of action for the Spartans, but I don't like stabbing allies. Now however, they've given me a sort of causus belli, their wanton disregard for anybody else's land on Planet. I'm not going to openly declare war, but I'm going to stop being nice about my Values choices. It's time for some Knowledge. I drop to -2 POLICE, so police no longer do me any good. I adjust my budget to 30-30-40 to put more into my Labs. I also really want Advanced Ecological Engineering so I'm switching my research focus to Build.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 02:29:37 PM
MY 2280. I buy Nanominiaturization from the Cyborgs. Svensgaard has some techs as well, and nobody else does, so I feel I have to talk to him. Because of my Knowledge he has cooled to Noncommittal. He's gone to war with the Usurpers again, and this is a make it or break it decision for our alliance. I'm not ready to fight Svensgaard, so I go along with his war plan, as it costs me nothing. That makes him Cooperative. When I go to trade tech with him, he actually gives me Planetary Economics, making me unwilling to backstab him. I guess I will build some Hybrid Forests, as those will definitely help my cities get bigger.
MY 2282. I get a 5 critter fungal pop. That city showed 9 eco-damage 2 turns ago. Then it went to 0 when I rushed a Hybrid Forest in a different city. This turn it's doing 29 eco-damage, for 34 minerals. As my Police Scouts aren't useful anymore, I throw them as fodder at the worms. Not sure why I had a merely Disciplined one of those, but it actually prevailed against a Spore Launcher, despite my -3 PLANET rating. I need to make sure I've built Command Centers in my cities when making garrison units. I forgot that I didn't manage to get the Command Nexus.
Chairman Yang runs into me at sea. I only have a Treaty with him nowadays. He wants me to make war with the Caretakers and I refuse, as I have a Treaty with them. Then he wants Fusion Power, which of course I don't give him. Then he wants me to loan him money, which given that we have Political differences of opinion, is a bad idea. So he declares war on me. My Isle isn't tough enough with -3 PLANET to fight him, so I try running away.
I contact Lal to make war on Chairman Yang, his next door neighbor and natural enemy. He refuses. What a pusilanimous wimp!
MY 2283. My Isle survives the attack of Yang's ship. I was about to go pick up a few remaining supply pods on the north pole, but it has sunk! Now there's just 1 floating in the water. The "grab the pods" game is pretty close to over, and I got the lion's share.
I have 1 city in danger of sinking so I rush a Pressure Dome. Are the Pirates doing anything ecologically responsible? Well, they've built 18 Tree Farms. No Hybrid Forests or Centauri Preserves, even though they could.
new river system and inland sea |
MY 2284. Several squares in Pirate territory get turned into water all at once. I have a new river system leading to them, which I presume is one of those deadly rivers I can't develop. I wonder if the Pirates' penchant for Borehole construction will prove to be self-limiting after all?
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 03:24:17 PM
MY 2289. Svensgaard expressed Ambivalence and wanted me to loan him money. I refused. I mean hey his energy reserves are 2367, he clearly doesn't need the dough. So he ended our Pact.
soon to be my 1st sea base |
MY 2291. I lost a Rover Former on the square just south of this base that's sinking. There's no river there, so I find it weird. It's definitely in an area with a lot of sinking though. I still have not gained Advanced Ecological Engineering.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 03:57:30 PM
MY 2297. I'm starting to get the feeling that the Pirates' production advantages, have simply put them in an "I get to win the game" mode. Are they really Passive enough to never declare war on me? I've saved up 2000 credits, but I'm not researching any techs that would give me Secret Projects to complete before them.
Manifold Nexus is dying |
MY 2298. I am remembering from a previous flooding game, that once the Manifold Nexus sinks, it doesn't work anymore. I need to get down there to shore that up, if I'm ever going to possess it. Only just now have I finally been able to make Super Clean Hover Formers. It may not be basically possible to save it, and I think in practice that means, AI Borehole production greatly exceeds the rate at which one can afford long distance interventions in the Manifold Nexus. If I had settled it when I first discovered it, possibly by now there would be a productive city sitting on there, which could do its own terraforming. But I remember other priorities going on back then.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 04:08:09 PM
Pirates should be pursuing Wealth in my mod |
Ok, this I actually consider to be a serious problem with Thinker mod's AI handling. In my mod, the Pirates' compulsion is to choose Wealth. When anyone picks a social value other than Wealth, they get on that faction's case, break Treaties, declare war, etc. Those behaviors are still in effect this game. That's why we're not allies anymore. Yet, here is Svensgaard pursuing Knowledge, the very thing that he lambasted me for pursuing!
This is unacceptable on several grounds. First, it destroys the narrative. Second, it destroys the diplomatic balance. Third, it's a serious gameplay balancing problem. In my mod I have the Pirates pursuing Wealth, and their faction bonuses and penalties balanced in a certain way, because it works. I have tested this stuff for many months to ensure that it works, to ensure that it doesn't become a completely sucky game experience. Well know I know why the Pirates AI is going gangbusters in terms of tech.
In other test games I've seen Deirdre go Socialist (my version of Planned) instead of Green. This is similarly unacceptable. It's also counterproductive to her mindworm combat. She needs the offensive bonus that the extra +2 PLANET provides. I've spent months playtesting this sort of thing, running AIs vs. AIs, to determine whether the Gaian AI needs more military oomph or not.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 04:55:38 PM
MY 2301. I switch to Power, which in my mod gives an additional +1 PROBE, bringing me to the max of +3. I haven't found a reference for whether this will actually reduce my subversion costs though. It's easier to take over a base if the defender has a negative PROBE rating, but there are no PROBE penalties in my mod. I think probe teams are overpowered and not making anyone gratuitously weaker to them, partially rebalances them.
why not invade |
The cities that are accessible for invasion, aren't actually all that great. They don't have any Secret Projects in them, for instance. So, if this subversion campaign even works, it could be a long one. I can't believe this joker has defended his city with only 1 probe team, the very thing stopping me from taking it over! I back off and regroup.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 05:49:57 PM
cant win for cheating |
Advancing my probe team towards another city, Svensgaard decides to have a little chat. He declares war on me not because of my perfect subterfuge, but on the general principle of me choosing Power. Well ok, I guess I'm going into steal techs mode then. I don't actually have any offensive units yet, except for mindworms left over from my Green period. I could go Green again, but instead I just use the mindworms to kill feeble Former and Crawler units.
I steal various techs, including Chaos weapons and the Dream Twister. It's not completed yet so I rush it.
MY 2303. With the Dream Twister completed, it's pretty attractive to go Green and really stick it to Svesngaard with my mindworms. I accept the near zero population growth. There's always the Children's Creche to prevent complete stagnation. And, plenty of time to rebuild after I conquer him. Finally, I might have eco-damage from all these Boreholes I'm taking over.
I encounter a serious Sensor Array problem going after one of his bases. This wasn't a planned offensive. I go after a what I think is a weaker target, only to belatedly realize it has a Sensor Array as well. As I've already built a rail to its front door, I bring up a Command Chaos Squad that only takes 1 turn to complete. It wipes out the defender pretty easily, and becomes Elite.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 06:48:07 PM
suffering Capitalist penalty while Green |
as Green as Kermit the Frog |
MY 2303. WTH? I'm getting -30% as though I'm still Capitalist, but I switched to Green this turn. Saving the game. Quitting. Cold starting the game. Loading. Same combat odds. I'll wait until next turn to see if there's a 1 turn latency.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 06:55:27 PM
Pirates had no concept of defense |
MY 2303. I blitz 3 Pirate cities using rails and Chaos Infantry. I could have taken a 4th as a walk-in if I had had either a Hovertank, an extra probe team, or an offensive unit to knock out the armored supply crawler in the way, but I didn't have any of those. I wonder if that city will still be vacant next turn? It's still trying to build an AAA Probability Garrison prototype. In my mod those are terribly expensive, both due to 3X prototyping cost, and large nonlinear increases in armor costs as they get more powerful. The AI doesn't understand the concept of using a Skunkworks in this case. I myself get my prototypes for free, an actual big advantage for the otherwise rather plain Spartans. I'm only building plain Probability Garrisons because they cost 100 minerals as is.
I have stolen the techs for the Network Backbone and the Theory of Everything, but I don't think it's worth disrupting my military production for those. Instead I've got almost every city making Probability Sentinels because it's clear that I'm going to need more garrison units.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 08:01:39 PM
the AI is a PITA with missiles |
MY 2304. I really hate that the AI shoots missiles at poorly defended cities with Artifacts in them. I lost 2. If I didn't have so many, I'd be much angrier. As it is, I just make a mental note not to include this kind of un-fun griefing in any game I ever design. Wonder what happens if I give them some armor, or even AAA?
righteous Planet |
The advantage of being Green has asserted itself this turn.
your supply of plasma is overpriced |
I wondered if I could throw a Secret Project together by subverting these armored crawlers littering the Pirate landscape. Nope! Too expensive. This is a job for relatively weak mindworms. Had to destroy a Sensor Array first though, or they would have died. That's not even Resonance armor, just plain Plasma.
My Chaos Infantry are mostly wounded. As I switched entirely to garrison troops, I don't have any fresh supply of them. One base I couldn't reasonably assault because of another darned Sensor Array. Well, I only have my own modding to blame for making them so tough. You really do have to pick them apart or else risk losing units on fruitless assaults. Sometimes the lay of the land just doesn't allow you to get to the Sensor Array either. So I go after a different city.
mindworm reactor disparity |
So a mindworm only has Power 10, and a fusion reactor unit has power 20? I didn't think that's how psi combat worked. Let's see if the odds calculator is just wrong. I attack, and the Plasma Crawler dies easily. Only 20% wounds to me. Now I know not to take them seriously.
I don't have the strength to break through any of the nominally defended Pirate cities, so I send my Chaos units to be healed. I do get a walk-in though. Could have 2 if only I had a faster moving unit.
I go Fundamentalist. Now I have +4 MORALE and +4 POLICE. My income drops by 100 credits, but I will still make 50 credits/turn.
I'd like to build the Manifold Nexus but I didn't have a city free to do it. Next turn I will.
Post by: bvanevery on March 06, 2019, 09:15:30 PM
The Pirates make up for it by suiciding most of its probe teams against my Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. That was dumb of them, especially since a lot of those teams were armored, and previously defending some cities from my attacks.
I remember that I can Pillage with a Former. I use that trick to take out a Sensor Array on the far side of a city, as I do have Speeder and Hover Formers.
the Pirates can't fight |
I take even more cities that have almost nothing protecting them. The AI isn't altering its production to deal with reality either. There's really no point in continuing this exercise, as I know that every land base is going to be mine soon. Every sea base touching that land will also be mine, just as soon as I make some Marines. The Pirates might be able to threaten to Transcend even with the bases they have remaining after that, but I think to prevent that, all I have to do is try.
I don't think the Cybernetic Consciousness can mount credible opposition, as their bases don't look any better garrisoned than the Pirates were.
My conclusion is Thinker AI is strong at terraforming, but weak at fighting. If it is given massive resource buffs at the beginning of the game, it can mask that weakness, but it's really obvious when it has to produce and grow at the same rate I do. All the minerals in the world won't help it.
I did accomplish the original test objective, which is to validate that cost_factor works as advertized.
Now I think I'll see just how fast I can beat it militarily, with default settings. Because making it produce and grow the same as myself, turns out to be way too easy. I kept fearing it would have a level of force more like the stock binary, and it didn't. Despite my 1st game where I got clobbered, maybe now that I know what it's good and bad at, it won't really be able to do anything to me.