Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on November 07, 2018, 03:19:06 PM

Title: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 07, 2018, 03:19:06 PM
Because I don't want politics in my other thread. 

Any surprises in your local elections? 

Here in Utah, a medical marijuana proposition passed.  This is notable as the LDS church took an extremely hard line against it, going as far as to use it's member list to email all members specifically to vote against it.  (which I'm still questioning how that was legal, but Utah) 

While previously the church has indicated it's for or against particular items, it's never before specifically told it's members to get out and opposed something. 

DESPITE that, the proposition passed.  AFAIK this is the first time in Utah whatever position the church has supported has failed in the polls. 

http://www.kuer.org/post/utahns-greenlight-medical-marijuana-spite-religious-pushback#stream/0 (http://www.kuer.org/post/utahns-greenlight-medical-marijuana-spite-religious-pushback#stream/0)


There's also an anti-gerrymandering proposition I'm hoping wins, but it's nearly 50-50 (leading by about 5000 votes right now), not sure it's been officially called yet. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on November 07, 2018, 05:22:11 PM
Did the LDS "support" any other ballot initiatives this go around?

Hummm, someone could make a case that they are going beyond their tax exempt status.  Of course, they could just start and fund a SuperPAC and stay in the shadows...

But no matter, good for Utah!!
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 07, 2018, 05:48:27 PM
They very rarely work openly.  I think this and the gay marriage one some years back are the only ones in my memory.  They prefer to just manipulate the state government behind closed doors where good-standing LDS members of the government seek counsel on any law that touches on doctrine.  This is why our alcohol laws are so wacky. 

They've been steadily losing those good-standing members inside the government though.  I think they might have lost 1 or two more in the state congress.  Closer to 50-50. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on November 15, 2018, 07:38:18 AM
In Wisconsin, the election played out as it often does. Milwaukee gave the Democrats a big early lead, then Democratic stronghold Madison, and the GOP suburban counties that surround the two cities weigh in at the same time, with the net effect of trimming the Democratic lead substantially. After that the votes trickle in from rural upstate and everybody waits to see if they'll be enough for another GOP win. Wisconsin is the birthplace of the party after all.

Normally the inner city residents of Milwaukee and the students in Madison only turn out in presidential election years. As usual the GOP pulled ahead after midnight. Then Milwaukee reported that they'd found a bag of 15,000 votes that they hadn't counted yet. ( Oh really? Are you sure they haven't been lying around from the primary ? )  Sure enough, these votes were mostly for Democrats, flipping the election. So, Gov. Scott Walker decided not to concede until the results were certified.

Well, it's a case of one party rule in the city and county of Milwaukee. There's incompetence and neglegence, cronyism and corruption in the workforce and elected officials. The others look the other way, so nothing changes, and they get the government they deserve. But never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence alone. I imagine it's much the same in south Florida.

The results stood up to scrutiny and Walker conceded by Sunday. If [Sleezebag] mobilized a cranky white vote here two years ago for himself, he can also take credit for a blue wave backlash that wiped out the state AG as well.

I'll put in a word for Walker here. He originally ran on job creation two terms and a recall ago. When the Great Recession hit, he decided to reform pensions rather lay people off in a tough economy as neihbor states were forced to do. Jobs have been his lode star, and he brought some, including Foxcon.  He went too [Sleezebag]. Rather than running on his jobs record and crediting the economy to GOP control, he got into the weeds with "stand for the anthem" nonsesnse.


So, like his home county of Milwaukee, he got he deserved.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 15, 2018, 01:31:28 PM


Well, it's a case of one party rule in the city and county of Milwaukee. There's incompetence and neglegence, cronyism and corruption in the workforce and elected officials. The others look the other way, so nothing changes, and they get the government they deserve. But never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence alone. I imagine it's much the same in south Florida.


First time we've had a race close enough to see this.  Mia Love is suing to stop counting votes in the county she's losing (badly) in.  But go ahead and keep counting where she's winning. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-mia-love-sues-to-halt-vote-count-in-salt-lake-county/2018/11/14/1b734c8c-e848-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.e45928953722 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rep-mia-love-sues-to-halt-vote-count-in-salt-lake-county/2018/11/14/1b734c8c-e848-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.e45928953722)
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 15, 2018, 01:35:17 PM
Did the LDS "support" any other ballot initiatives this go around?

Hummm, someone could make a case that they are going beyond their tax exempt status.  Of course, they could just start and fund a SuperPAC and stay in the shadows...

But no matter, good for Utah!!

So, the church worked behind closed doors to modify what was voted on and agree to a 'compromise' that removes protections for employees.  So, you will be able to be fired for having medical marijuana.  I don't understand enough to know how that can possibly be legal, when the voters passed a binding resolution, how it can be changed.  I'm sure there's going to be lawyer involvement and millions of tax $ wasted now. 

https://fox13now.com/2018/11/14/utahs-medical-marijuana-initiative-is-about-to-get-swapped-out-with-a-compromise-bill-in-the-legislature/
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on November 15, 2018, 11:00:15 PM
How can they monkey with it once voters have approved it?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on November 16, 2018, 12:19:01 PM
First time we've had a race close enough to see this.  Mia Love is suing to stop counting votes in the county she's losing (badly) in.  But go ahead and keep counting where she's winning.

A court can decide what's done with the votes of an election?
Or is this a recount too?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on November 16, 2018, 12:21:16 PM
https://fox13now.com/2018/11/14/utahs-medical-marijuana-initiative-is-about-to-get-swapped-out-with-a-compromise-bill-in-the-legislature/

I'm being censored by Fox.

Sorry, this content is not available in your region.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2018, 01:22:08 PM
It's not a recount.  I don't know how the hell it works honestly.  They called a special session of congress, made this new bill, and reportedly are going to get it passed prior to Prop 2 coming into effect (I think it gave the state a year to comply or something) thus nullifying prop 2 somehow. 

(to be clear, I work at a federal facility, so none of this impacts me personally, I'm governed by the federal ban still, just interested by the clear church and state matter on display.) 

Edit:  And really, there's nothing RELIGIOUSLY the church would have against marijuana.  In fact their doctrine on the matter would seem to encourage it as a medicine.  What's REALLY at play here is the fact the church owns a megacrapton of pharmaceutical stocks and is going to take a hit.  So, you have this really weird (to me) case of monetary  concerns driving church rhetoric to interfere politically. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2018, 01:28:58 PM
https://fox13now.com/2018/11/14/utahs-medical-marijuana-initiative-is-about-to-get-swapped-out-with-a-compromise-bill-in-the-legislature/

I'm being censored by Fox.

Sorry, this content is not available in your region.

Quote
SALT LAKE CITY -- On Utah's Capitol Hill, lawmakers are finalizing a bill that would replace Proposition 2, the medical marijuana ballot initiative approved by voters last week.
Thursday morning, Fox 13 News learned TRUCE and others have retained attorney Rocky Anderson and are threatening a lawsuit over the involvement The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has had with the Utah Legislature regarding that bill.

Sponsors of Prop. 2 were meeting with opponents and legislative leadership on Wednesday night to hammer out some final language ahead of a Dec. 3 special session. A final "compromise" bill is expected to be made public next week, said Connor Boyack, the president of the Libertas Institute, who has been involved in the closed-door negotiations.

"What the public is going to see in the final special session is, from our perspective, about 90% of what was in Proposition 2. There’s some stuff we don’t like. There’s some stuff we’ve compromised on, but there’s some ways it’s better for patients. We’ve taken advantage of these negotiations to improve the proposal," he told FOX 13.

Rep. Brad Daw, R-Orem, who vigorously opposed Prop. 2, also believes the bill will be better for Utahns than what voters passed.


RELATED STORY
Utah Department of Health prepares to start distributing medical marijuana, expanding Medicaid

"I feel like we are honoring the will of the voters and doing it in a way that’s responsible and also protects those who need to be protected," he said.

The compromise bill came about as a result of Prop. 2 going on the November ballot. Supporters and opponents were gearing up for vicious campaigns when House Speaker Greg Hughes, R-Draper, brought together the Utah Patients Coalition (Prop. 2's sponsor), Libertas Institute, the Utah Medical Association, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others to craft an agreement to give Utah a medical cannabis program, regardless of whether the initiative passed or failed.

Supporters of Prop. 2 still urged voters to approve it to send a message to lawmakers. It passed with about 53% of the vote.

"We understand as a group there are some minor changes that need to be made [to Prop. 2], but not the wholesale slaughter of this that it appears the opposition has compromised on," said Doug Rice, the community liaison for Together for Responsible Use and Cannabis Education (TRUCE) which pushed medical marijuana legislation.

TRUCE has vocally opposed the compromise bill and pressed lawmakers to simply enact what voters approved in Prop. 2.


RELATED STORY
Utah’s medical marijuana initiative could also test the LDS Church’s political clout

Boyack said Prop. 2 sponsors had no choice but to negotiate.

"If we would just say 'Proposition 2 or die,' the legislature -- as it’s probably going to do with some of the other initiatives -- was going to start monkeying with it and not in a good way for patients," he said.

Still, some lawmakers are uneasy with overriding a ballot initiative. At the House Minority Caucus luncheon on Wednesday, Democratic lawmakers quizzed legislative lawyers on the compromise bill being proposed. Rep. Karen Kwan, D-Taylorsville, said she was troubled that a final bill hasn't really been released for her or the public to see.

"I think voters were already upset with the legislature and that’s why they wrote this, they signed this, they came to vote this in. The thing is, it passed," Rep. Kwan told FOX 13.


RELATED STORY
Utah’s medical marijuana ballot initiative will pass

House Republicans also were briefed on the bill in the Majority Caucus. Rep. Daw said he believed they have the votes to pass the compromise legislation.

"At the end of the day, it needs to pass. I think it will pass," he said. "It is a much better bill than Prop. 2. And at this point, it’s better than doing nothing. It will pass."

The bill is still being tweaked, but Boyack said there were some key differences:

"Grow your own" if you don't live within 100 miles of a dispensary is gone.
The list of disorders and patient conditions has been modified slightly and the definition of "pain" is expanded.
"Buds" are allowed, but will be dispensed in blister packs with dosage limits.
No edibles or candies, but a cube-shaped gummy or a lozenge.
Oils, tinctures, topicals and vaping are OK.
State-run "pharmacies" to dispense cannabis product. There will also be some limited private dispensaries allowed.
On Dec. 1, "affirmative defense" takes effect, meaning an eligible medical cannabis patient would not likely be prosecuted for marijuana possession, even if it was bought illegally.
State agencies are preparing to figure out how to dispense medical cannabis. Utah Agriculture and Food Commissioner LuAnn Adams met with lawmakers on Wednesday to discuss their concerns. Under both, the agency has been tasked with "growing" marijuana (but in reality, they will contract with state licensed cultivators).

Commissioner Adams raised concerns about transporting it and what happens if some of the medical cannabis were to wind up on the streets.

"Make sure that doesn’t get on the black market," she said. "We just want to make sure it’s safe for the public."

TRUCE was urging its supporters to call their lawmakers and Governor Gary Herbert's office to push for Prop. 2 to be implemented instead of the compromise bill. TRUCE was also not ruling out a lawsuit.

"The gamut is available to us. Any of our options are being considered including litigation," Rice told FOX 13.

A public hearing on the compromise bill is scheduled for Nov. 26. You can read the latest draft of the bill here.

UPDATE: FOX 13 obtained a "preservation letter" Thursday morning sent by TRUCE that calls on the legislature and the LDS Church to maintain records relating to the compromise bill in case of a lawsuit.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on November 16, 2018, 06:21:30 PM
I gather then that the result of a ballot initiative is not binding by state law? Merely a bad move by local politicians when going against the results?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2018, 07:09:01 PM
It was a "binding resolution" but I'm not entirely sure what exactly that allows them to do from a legal perspective.  Since lawsuits are being talked about, I don't know that what they are trying to do is completely legal either. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on November 16, 2018, 07:13:45 PM
IOW, To Be Continued...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on November 16, 2018, 07:26:33 PM
Supposed to be, which is why it takes some effort to even get the issue onto the ballot in the first place.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on December 04, 2018, 08:25:51 PM
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/12/03/utah-house-passes-medical/ (https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/12/03/utah-house-passes-medical/)

Quote
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints welcomed the opportunity to participate in a broad community effort to alleviate pain and suffering,” Marty Stephens, director of community and government relations, said in the statement. “Today the passage of the Utah Medical Cannabis Act once again shows how organizations with diverse interests can come together to resolve difficult issues for the benefit of those who suffer while simultaneously protecting our children.”

So, this new bill: 

Reduces the number of dispenseries from 40 to 7 in the state. 
Reduces the list of approved illnesses
disallows edibles
and removes employment protection.  You can be fired for being on medical marijuana. 

Nowhere near what was voted on.  And the church isn't even shy about saying it was involved. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on December 05, 2018, 12:51:42 AM
If your Governor Veto's it, could the Legislator have enough to overturn?
Sad that they won't listen to the voters (Whom they are supposed to be representing, not the Church). 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on December 05, 2018, 02:41:43 AM
Gubner already signed. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 06, 2019, 06:06:13 PM
https://fox13now.com/2019/02/05/against-all-odds-the-utah-supreme-court-will-hear-a-challenge-to-the-legislatures-medical-cannabis-replacement-bill/ (https://fox13now.com/2019/02/05/against-all-odds-the-utah-supreme-court-will-hear-a-challenge-to-the-legislatures-medical-cannabis-replacement-bill/)

Supreme court will hear arguments against the legislature changing the bill voted on by the public.  That was unexpected. 

But wait...the govt is not done, they're now rolling back a second proposition:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/02/04/utah-senate-readies-its/ (https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/02/04/utah-senate-readies-its/)

Quote
Utah Senators voted 22-7 on Monday for SB96, sending to the House a replacement Medicaid expansion plan that initially costs considerably more money to cover fewer people than the voter-approved Proposition 3, and which would automatically repeal itself if the state fails to receive funding waivers from the federal government.

Yeah, that's right, they've changed it to cost more (as much as 7x more), cover fewer (about half), and likely be done away with all together (but it'll be the "fed's fault" if that happens).


 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on February 06, 2019, 07:45:47 PM
How do these people get re-elected?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 06, 2019, 09:21:33 PM
It's Utah, you're supposed to walk in, select the 'vote republican only' box, and walk out.  Presuming you're a good Mormon (or whatever their preferred name is these days) 

And most area religious leaders have come out against what they are doing with this medicaid bill....Except for those leaders from TEH Church.  So, it's wouldn't surprise me if it was put forth BY the church behind closed doors, since the church owns a megacrapton of pharmacy stocks. 

There's motions being put forth to remove party ticket voting from Utah ballots, like most states have already done, but the Republicans are definitely opposed. 

I'm waiting for the next shoe to drop as the other proposition that passed was anti-gerrymandering that COULD make Utah a lot closer to a purple state.  They'll fiddle with that somehow to keep us red. 

Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on February 07, 2019, 01:22:50 AM
or mildly red with purple outlines...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 07, 2019, 04:27:51 PM
or mildly red with purple outlines...

I don't know the demographics really, but it would be a purple heart.  Most the blue is centered around SLC. 

Likely wouldn't change utah for, say, a presidential election, but the house and senate positions as well as the state govt would definitely get a lot more mixed. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 07, 2019, 11:45:16 PM
;nod
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on February 08, 2019, 09:07:51 PM
That's not realistic...  He left him his shorts...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 12, 2019, 02:48:55 PM
I'm posting this simply because it's quite possibly the most "Utah" thing possible. 

https://fox13now.com/2019/02/11/lds-church-says-it-opposes-bill-eliminating-3-2-beer-in-utah/

Quote
SALT LAKE CITY -- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said it does not support a bill to eliminate 3.2 beer in Utah.

"The Church opposes Senate bill 132 in its current form. We, along with other community groups, oppose legislation which represents a fifty percent increase in alcohol content for beer sold in grocery and convenience stores," Marty Stephens, the LDS Church's Director of Government Relations, said in a statement to FOX 13.

The Church's statement did not surprise the bill's sponsor, or groups who support Senate Bill 132.

"I don’t believe there’s any way they can support that bill," said Sen. Jerry Stevenson, R-Layton. "And, in fact, I doubt there’s a way they can stay neutral."

The LDS Church is a powerful presence on Utah's Capitol Hill and the faith's positions on alcohol policy are well known.

"They are, of course, a significant factor," said Kate Bradshaw of the Responsible Beer Choice Coalition, which supports SB132. "Ninety percent of the Utah State Legislature adheres to their faith so it does make them a significant player and a factor. We hope to just appeal to the reasonableness of what we’re putting forward. It’s a small modest change. It’s respectful of Utah’s unique culture. It’s respectful of public safety concerns, but it does address the significant market pressures of being the last significant 3.2 beer market."

As a result of bigger beer states ditching 3.2 beer, Utah is left with dwindling product on store shelves. SB132 raises the legal definition from 3.2 to 4.8% alcohol by weight.

See the list of beer brands disappearing from store shelves here

Local brewers have opposed SB132, wanting to raise the alcohol content even higher. They have argued the bill benefits only "mega-brewers" like Anheuser-Busch and MillerCoors.

During the Senate Business and Labor Committee's hearing last week, lawmakers questioned whether increasing the alcohol content truly represented a 50% increase. The bill passed unanimously.

Sen. Stevenson said the LDS Church's position won't change him running his bill. He believed there are enough votes to pass the Utah State Senate, but was not sure about the House of Representatives.

"I’ve looked at this for three years now. There’s momentum building, has been for quite a while now and I don’t just think it’s a retailer-sponsored bill now. This is real. There will be active constituents if we don’t look at doing something," he said, suggesting beer drinkers would be angry at a lack of choice on store shelves.

SB132 could come up for a vote in the Utah State Senate later this week. Previously, supporters of the legislation have told FOX 13 they would not rule out a 2020 ballot initiative for beer (and wine) in grocery and convenience stores.

"I would say nothing is off the table at this point," Bradshaw said.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 12, 2019, 02:53:50 PM
Oh, and the above medicaid rewrite of what was voted on is now official too. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/46485207/gov-herbert-signs-prop-3-medicaid-expansion-replacement-into-law (https://www.ksl.com/article/46485207/gov-herbert-signs-prop-3-medicaid-expansion-replacement-into-law)


Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on February 12, 2019, 11:09:47 PM
https://www.ksl.com/article/46485207/gov-herbert-signs-prop-3-medicaid-expansion-replacement-into-law (https://www.ksl.com/article/46485207/gov-herbert-signs-prop-3-medicaid-expansion-replacement-into-law)

Utah really isn't into non-Americans reading their stuff. ;lol
I see a simple "Forbidden" when I try to open that link.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Mart on February 13, 2019, 05:58:26 PM
Maybe some free proxy server would help. There are some online.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on February 13, 2019, 10:16:43 PM
Maybe some free proxy server would help. There are some online.

Thanks, but I'm not that interested in opening the link.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 14, 2019, 10:39:59 PM
And you shouldn't be, it's only reporting the gubner signing the neutered medicaid bill. 

See if this works, it's a summary of similar in several states. 

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/02/ballot-initiatives-blue-wave-election-vote-utah-maine-idaho/582223/ (https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/02/ballot-initiatives-blue-wave-election-vote-utah-maine-idaho/582223/)
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on February 14, 2019, 11:04:04 PM
Thanks.

At the end of the article, the paragraph about minimum wages. That upcoming Washington DC minimum wage? It was the kind of minimum wage in my sector years ago. ???
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 20, 2019, 03:37:41 AM
Taylor Swift tie-in for Buncle.
https://twitter.com/ohcauseshesdead/status/1119050035474264065
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 10, 2019, 05:47:32 PM
I woulda voted twice to block Ross Perot if I could, but I've missed the screaming dwarf every presidential cycle since.  Now it's permanent.  Discuss.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on July 11, 2019, 03:13:48 AM
I was old enough to see his campaign happening, but young enough to not fully understand or pay attention to the details.  Couldn't vote and politics is forbidden in the parents house, but I always felt a 3rd party was a good idea in general. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 11, 2019, 06:10:00 AM
There are days when I wish I could change the past, and he'd have won, and his agenda implemented.
1)Balanced Budget.
2)End the Revolving Door by prohibiting ex-Federal employees from working as lobbyists or for firms that lobby the federal government for a period of 5 years in the case of domestic corporations and 10 years in the case of foreign governments and corporations.
3)Health Care Reform by pilot project. Don't impose a program nationwide without first testing 5 approaches in 5 different states. De-bug them. When they work, expand them to another state or two for more testing. We need to find something that works for both large states and small, urban and rural, rich and poor before you roll it out nationwide. The best approach probably won't be any of the original 5.

Well 1 wouldn't have happened in the Clinton administration if Ross hadn't bought the tv time at his own expense to make the case.

2 would have been the best step towards "draining the swamp", would have cramped [Sleezebag]'s style. Well, until [Sleezebag] decided he could ignore the Constitution, rule of law, etc.

3 would have cramped Hillary and Obama's style.

Yeah, I can't think about these issues without thinking that Ross was right. I can't see an interview between a network and a presidential candidate without thinking about the time CNN tried to derail him with a blind-side gun control question. Ross paused and said "Crazy people shouldn't have guns, and people that use guns to threaten others shouldn't be allowed to keep them." I wrote this to Wayne Lapierre a couple of times for his reaction, but never got an answer.  He had a few other observations I wish I'd hear from an actual president, such as "War is watching people you love get killed," and he once said that being president is like getting up in the morning, eager to move ahead with your plans for the economy, only to discover that Jesus is in Waco.



Yeah, Ross was vain and paranoid, but he knew how to identify a problem and approach it. While I wish he'd gotten the chance to solve some of our national problems, I'm just glad that he spoke up. I'm not sad that he's gone, I'm glad he touched my life. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 11, 2019, 06:25:29 PM
I think he can totally claim point 1) - and boy that's not nothing; only, I believe, the only balanced budget submitted by a president in my entire life.  The Nazis Republicans Nazis should put THAT in their pipe and smoke it.  -Ooh the high of burning Reaganite lies.-  They've had their chances since.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 11, 2019, 07:11:54 PM
There was the fiscal year when LBJ's budget administered by Nixon, had a surplus, IIRC. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 11, 2019, 07:27:12 PM
Okay, still - that's your tax-and-spend Democrats for you.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 15, 2019, 02:28:06 PM
GOP Jesus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2L-R8NgrA#)
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on July 15, 2019, 10:30:36 PM
Boooooooooo!!!
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 15, 2019, 11:01:54 PM
Of course you boo the twisted reality, not the joke.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on July 15, 2019, 11:57:24 PM
No, they're booing the poor person asking for healing at the end of the clip.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 16, 2019, 12:27:01 AM
So they are.

Church people in this country are a bunch of suckers.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on July 16, 2019, 09:29:35 AM
And some states have ALOT of churches…
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 16, 2019, 01:37:08 PM
It's a protestant thing - where we didn't have Romans build our roads long ago.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on July 17, 2019, 01:36:07 PM
I was old enough to see his campaign happening, but young enough to not fully understand or pay attention to the details.  Couldn't vote and politics is forbidden in the parents house, but I always felt a 3rd party was a good idea in general.
I feel that if the Libertarians didn't put so much emphasis on the drug thing, that a lot of Republicans (and maybe a few Dems, too) would join them and make it a real party.  Thing is, they aren't getting any of the Federal Election fund (you know, that one dollar that you opt in to play every year, when you do your taxes) due to the fact that they need to hit a threshold of (IIRC) 5% of the popular vote in the General Election to qualify for i(That and part of the free airtime that they could get).  That would make a big difference in getting their message out.
I've always considered them to be Republican Light...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on July 17, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
"As you suspect that they would do unto you"...  Oh so very true!!
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 24, 2019, 03:49:43 AM
I like what I hear from Libertarian turned Republican Wm. Weld, Republican turned Independent Jason Amash, and bottom tier  Democrat Tulsi Gabbard. Why? Because they want to curtail our multitude of wars.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on July 24, 2019, 04:20:18 PM
Not likely to happen until the US Military is curtailed…
If its there, its gonna be used.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 24, 2019, 06:00:04 PM
Not likely to happen until the US Military is curtailed…
If its there, its gonna be used.

True.
I wish you were teasing or trying to be funny.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 25, 2019, 02:33:17 AM
So, we've had the investigation, the report, and now the hearings about the report. Plenty of rhetoric as well. If the Democrats don't start impeachment hearings now it implies two possibilities-

1) They got nothing in the way of evidence of a crime.

2) All they care about is political power, not ethics, rule of law or The Constitution, same as the Republicans.

I suspect it's #2, but plenty of voters will think it's #1. Maybe they'll surprise me and do their duty regardless of consequences.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 25, 2019, 02:56:33 AM
2.  It's 2.  They should be jailed as collaborators, going back 17 years now.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 26, 2019, 12:04:05 AM
I feel that if the Libertarians didn't put so much emphasis on the drug thing, that a lot of Republicans (and maybe a few Dems, too) would join them and make it a real party.  Thing is, they aren't getting any of the Federal Election fund (you know, that one dollar that you opt in to play every year, when you do your taxes) due to the fact that they need to hit a threshold of (IIRC) 5% of the popular vote in the General Election to qualify for i(That and part of the free airtime that they could get).  That would make a big difference in getting their message out.
I've always considered them to be Republican Light...
I feel, and I said so when the election came out wrong, that the small-government conservatives ought to go Libertarian en mass, take over that party, and end their unnatural partnership with the Big Government social conservatives.  Those two things do not belong together, even when they're in the same person.

They stay away from the Nazi tendencies they left, be Libertarians, and I wouldn't automatically vote against them.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 27, 2019, 02:42:19 PM
Anyone have any strong feelings about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?

My main take is that she'd never have come on my radar if the crap-talking right wasn't trying to make a new Ted Kennedy of her - and they've made a classic blunder.  Kennedy, who was mysteriously involved in a girl's death in his youth, was a charisma black hole, as is Mrs. Clinton, his primary successor as go-to Evil Democrat Behind All Wrong.  With her retired and trying it with Speaker Pelosi never having gotten much traction, they're trying it on Ocasio-Cortez, Pure Charisma with no black hole, and they'll be sorry when they've made her President.

She's got a lot of fight in her, and with the Democratic leadership for the last 30 years being a bunch of collaborationist Eisenhower Republicans posing as Democrats, I love that.  I understand that she does her job in Congress, shows up for everything and sponsors a lot of bills - no empty shirt.  I haven't the foggiest if she'd be good at anything else, but the future is hers to mess up.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 27, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
I don't have strong feelings for or against AOC, with one exception-

I admire any person on any political level who wins a seat by knocking on doors and wearing out shoes. I figure she got an earful, and she is in office to share that message from the people of her district. She may be wrong, but she should be heard.

I read somewhere that people never re-consider their assumptions and assertions in the heat of an argument, they have to calm down first before they can re-evaluate logically. Much of social media/ cable info-tainment, etc. works as an outrage mill. And as long as they can keep the blood boiling, it's an us vs. them dynamic. So she's a tool for both sides, and outrage  keeps people from considering whether a living wage will become an unemployment check due to automation, or whether conservatives are trying to conserve anything other than political power for it's own sake any more. Or how much alike Republicans and Democrats are, so much as they put political calculations ahead of Constitutional considerations, spend money without a budget , consent to government by executive order rather than rule of law, and allow wars without declaring them.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 27, 2019, 08:47:41 PM
All this is true - but it's important to point out the Ted Kennedy=Antichrist=All-Liberals-At-Fault-And-EVIL obnoxious rhetorical attack is a lot older than the reign of Fox, if possibly not Reagan.

I hate to join the chorus on the 'both parties suck' talk, but when you've got the Nazis and the collaborators w/ Nazis to choose between, well, they both do suck, if not equally - but the partisans shot the collaborators, too.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 31, 2019, 01:15:18 AM
So, we've had the investigation, the report, and now the hearings about the report. Plenty of rhetoric as well. If the Democrats don't start impeachment hearings now it implies two possibilities-

1) They got nothing in the way of evidence of a crime.

2) All they care about is political power, not ethics, rule of law or The Constitution, same as the Republicans.

I suspect it's #2, but plenty of voters will think it's #1. Maybe they'll surprise me and do their duty regardless of consequences.

So I've got what must be the 4th e-mail in 30 hours from Speaker Nanci Pelosi about the sky falling and she's going to lose her majority, each more frantic than the last. I must donate now to receive triple matching money.  I've been replying with the #2 arguments, and of course the follow up letters are all about losing power, rather than losing the chance to do the right thing. She's as bad as the NRA used to be, because she seeks a biennial pay for Congress program instead of having the courage to act on rhetoric seek a legal course of action to settle things permanently.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 31, 2019, 03:20:17 PM
I been seeing a lot of attack stuff against AOC crony Rep. Ilhan Omar lately, not least from my dipcrap cousins on FB.  She's black, Muslim and an immigrant, and I can really see them sticking to that one enthusiastically for a while, because black, Muslim and an immigrant.  -She also rocks her head-hankies pretty hard and is good-looking.

They're not gonna have a lot more long-term luck with her, either.  It's a major mistake to make stars of the attractive ones...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on July 31, 2019, 07:47:09 PM
Wasn't Weld formerly a Republican before going Libertarian?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 31, 2019, 08:48:57 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on August 01, 2019, 08:05:31 AM
If she loses her "majority" position within the House, even though the Dems still control the House, how exactly would they go about replacing her and if so, whom would likely be taking her place as Speaker?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 01, 2019, 01:49:21 PM
Pelosi?  Dunno.  Who's the House Majority Leader now?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Lorizael on August 01, 2019, 06:03:33 PM
My guy, Steny Hoyer.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 01, 2019, 06:13:24 PM
He any good, or just another Eisenhower republican in disguise, like the rest of the "Democratic" leadership?  I'm really asking.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Lorizael on August 01, 2019, 08:41:36 PM
I think he's been in Congress since Eisenhower. My understanding is that he's good at his job, but he's not particularly progressive and is part of the reason the House is slow-walking impeachment. I voted for him in the midterms only because I don't believe Republicans deserve a seat at the national table until they purge themselves of [Sleezebag].
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 01, 2019, 09:43:11 PM
He needs to go home then, with the rest of the &^%$#@! collaborators.

I swore over 15 years ago to never vote for any Republican for anything, ever, who hasn't soundly denounced the excesses of the Cheney Bund -- and I think subsequent events mark that as a sound call, since these days they make Cheney look more and more like Eisenhower...

-I mean to say they're Nazis these days.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on August 02, 2019, 03:15:41 AM
I posted this in WPC Discord and will copy same here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxALM-VXEw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxALM-VXEw)
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 03, 2019, 05:09:05 PM
Just posted at a cousin's son on Facebook, the attachment, and then:

Quote
No, I'm not interested in playing spot the individual error of fact, when my concern is about a much bigger meta-issue; I came to call bull on the constant right-wing cheap-shots that sound like every single conservatroll on the net - and I find you don't know, not even who the enemy of freedom and the American Way is, but you don't have any idea, if your remarks are as honest as you want me to believe, WHO the Democrats are.   There is no interesting dialogue to be had going down the rabbit hole of thrashing out every single thing you say of them that turns out not to be the case for in excess of 90% -a butt-pull number, I admit, but a very generous one- of people on the left.

Arguments on the internet are for stubborn fools, and I do try to suppress my weakness for stubborn foolery, and sometimes fail, as now - but conversations between people who disagree -there is a difference- are possible, and can be productive.  It's all a matter of attitude, which is really what I wish to challenge you on.  Pointing at the pretty black lady in the head-hanky isn't exactly taking personal responsibility...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on August 22, 2019, 02:05:05 AM
So, I have the perfect analogy of the political system today. 

I've now received 2 emails from work.  They both say, essentially the same thing:

If you value your job, you need to donate to this (work) PAC.  Decisions are made every day and we need to come together as a company and ensure the people who are favorable to our positions are elected so that we can continue to win contracts. 

This is COMPLETELY unacceptable as a standard situation in America today, and yet, here we are. 

The kicker...it's a British company. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 22, 2019, 02:22:36 AM
COMPLETELY unacceptable - like, oughta be a felony.  I'm serious.  That's the worst sort of bossman bullying, telling you what to do off the job, EVER - and especially when it comes to tampering with the American system.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on August 22, 2019, 02:36:00 AM
It should be.  It's not.  This is the reality of the situation we are in. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 22, 2019, 04:11:27 AM
COMPLETELY unacceptable - like, oughta be a felony.  I'm serious.  That's the worst sort of bossman bullying, telling you what to do off the job, EVER - and especially when it comes to tampering with the American system.

Back in the 80s in PA it was called "macing" and was illegal, but I can't get it pull up on Google.

Nowadays we have "check bundling" which is legal. I suppose it's another sign that there's no shame in politics, and they aren't worried about appearances any more.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on August 22, 2019, 02:15:04 PM
Quote
Government decisions play an important role in the operations of our business, and governmental regulations have a direct impact on our bottom line.  We, as a company, need to be involved in the legislative decision-making process to encourage the election of candidates supportive of our lines of business and to ensure proper representation of our priorities and values.  We established the [snip] Political Action Committee (PAC) with this premise in mind.

Literally.  WTF. 

Quote
Regardless of your participation in the political process, decisions are being made every day that affect your job and our company.  Making your voice heard is important.  (insert link to PAC)

Now, I see this for the shameless grifting of the employee base that it is, but I'm telling you at least 80% of the folks I work with are just going to blindly click into this, dropping some % of their paychecks. 

But worse, if THIS company is doing it, I guarantee it is being done by virtually every contractor.  It is down right open buying of legislators. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on August 22, 2019, 04:33:11 PM
Are you serious? They are willing to offer their money to the company? For no return at all?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 22, 2019, 04:42:01 PM
If this country wasn't brim-full of credulous suckers, the Nazi Republican Bossman Nazi party would never win.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on August 23, 2019, 01:56:48 AM
"One Nation, under God, Indivisible..." but with two almost equally animostic to each other Political Parties that are moving closer and closer to the brink of tearing said country apart... [side voice - especially with rhetoric like that]
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 23, 2019, 02:04:26 AM
Screw that noise.  Do I look like Reagan to you?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on August 23, 2019, 02:01:49 PM
Are you serious? They are willing to offer their money to the company? For no return at all?

Not no return, to ensure you have a job.  Gotta remember most of the folks I work with will be voting for [Sleezebag] again as well because Fox News says democrats are the devil.   
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 24, 2019, 08:23:28 PM
To be fair, a president who will shred a treaty is an unprecedented financial opportunity for the industry.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on August 25, 2019, 10:26:22 AM
Are you serious? They are willing to offer their money to the company? For no return at all?

Not no return, to ensure you have a job.  Gotta remember most of the folks I work with will be voting for [Sleezebag] again as well because Fox News says democrats are the devil.   

Fear [nonsense] again.
But it's trending in the same direction here, not (yet) between most political parties, but between (roughly) the language communities and regions. In general the French-speaking regions want to keep the country as is, and a couple nationalist parties in my region, Flanders, want to go for separation. Problem is said nationalist parties are slowly reaching the 50% voters mark in my region. And that means they instantly have a majority nationwide since most of the population lives in Flanders.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 02, 2019, 07:30:13 PM
Say, Momma asked me a couple weeks ago what the Euros were saying about the Pig.  I could only answer "Not much".

Geo, you're pretty much it for dirty foreigners among our regulars these days - what's the buzz over in those parts on the Dirtbag in White House?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on October 03, 2019, 06:11:23 AM
That he's still a Dirtbag??
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on October 03, 2019, 06:21:01 PM
Say, Momma asked me a couple weeks ago what the Euros were saying about the Pig.  I could only answer "Not much".

Geo, you're pretty much it for dirty foreigners among our regulars these days - what's the buzz over in those parts on the Dirtbag in White House?

I assume the buzz here is more or less the same as on your side of the pool. For one kind of people, he's "Truth come to Earth", for others he's the current laughing stock, and don't forget the inevitable people who (are) fear/mad (at) him.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 03, 2019, 08:26:08 PM
I can't believe anyone's gone in for some other country's mouthy dirtbag.  Wow.

Stop the planet; I want to get off.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Geo on October 04, 2019, 03:04:19 PM
However you twist or turn it, this 'rhetoric' comes from one of the most powerful men on the planet.

Remember mr. Bannon, one of Trumps' former right hands? For sure earlier this year he was here in Europe trying to lobby his way in EU politics during election time, and founding some kind of "institute" in an Italian monastery to foster political change.
So don't be too shy in believing people on this side of the pool wouldn't go furinner's crap. ;)
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on October 15, 2019, 01:11:41 AM
Well today is a day of suspicion confirmed.
It always perplexed me how my Republican senator, the only CPA in the senate lost his way. He got more votes in Wisconsin than [Sleezebag] or anybody else in the 2016 election, so logically [Sleezebag] should have been seeking his advice and favor, but it seemed to be working the other way round. He seemed to abandon his budget hawk ethics in favor of becoming a [Sleezebag] and Russia apologist.  He even went on that 4th of July Congressional junket, then returned home to carry water for the Russians on TV appearances. What gives? It made absolutely no sense to me...

...unless he knowingly took some of that Russian money illegally laundered through the NRA. I kept coming back to this conclusion as I wrote various complaint e-mails about the unlawful behavior of the [Sleezebag] administration, and got the occasional reply from Johnson's office.

Then there was the Ron Johnson -Chuck Todd interview. Now today I read this-
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2019/9/30/1889009/-Republicans-Ron-Johnson-Cory-Gardner-Thom-Tillis-allegedly-got-illegal-NRA-help-in-2014-2016
 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 15, 2019, 04:41:58 PM
Infuriating.  There are no words for it.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: E_T on October 16, 2019, 04:18:34 PM
What is the Republican Party coming to?
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Lorizael on October 16, 2019, 05:27:01 PM
There is no Republican Party, only Zuul[Sleezebag].
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on October 16, 2019, 10:34:58 PM
What is the Republican Party coming to?

An end, I hope.
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on November 23, 2019, 07:37:04 PM
The Senate had a closed intelligence briefing to explain to them that the "Ukraine interfered in US elections" is a narrative put forth by Russian intelligence to blame their enemy for a Russian operation and confuse us.

You know who is still spewing this narrative? My traitorous senator, Ron Johnson.

Go figure...
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 04, 2020, 06:07:48 PM
Well, Political mumbo jumbo best describes our current Iowa caucus debacle.

I tend to believe in the power of human stupidity and incompetence, even when it's the DNC, or perhaps especially so. It does look particularly bad when they have been bragging about transparency to have this black hole. More so when Hillary and Obama seem to be bemoaning Sanders.

Whoever the winner was, they lost their prime time network news speechifying opportunity. As it is, every body can claim a victory. Participation trophies for all!

I suspect Sanders was the leader in terms of popular support. If so, he had his glory and possibly his delegates redistributed.
Isn't that a good socialist outcome? By the way, I would welcome a President Sanders. Like Gary Johnson, I usually get about 70% agreement with Sanders on "I Side With" tests. I can live with that.

I'd like to see the caucus replaced by a ranked choice voting paper ballot primary. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Unorthodox on February 05, 2020, 03:36:44 AM
The one thing I can say about Sanders is he is remarkably consistent.  One has to at least respect that.  Something I can't say for most politicians. 
Title: Re: Political mumbo jumbo
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 05, 2020, 08:29:14 PM
The one thing I can say about Sanders is he is remarkably consistent.  One has to at least respect that.  Something I can't say for most politicians.

True.

I guess what I respect is a politician with underlying principles, even when they are wrong. Consistency is a byproduct of integrity.  Most are simply opportunists- greedy or hungry for power and glory.
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