Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: bvanevery on April 08, 2018, 09:52:41 AM

Title: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on April 08, 2018, 09:52:41 AM

Know what?  I'm tired, sick to death of factions starting up all these little projects at the beginning of the game, then sorting themselves out later as to which ones they actually get to have.  The Human Genome Project is powerful, for its cost.  It gives you a permanent benefit the whole game.  I don't see why people should just be studying Biogenetics and calling it good, or picking it up from pods.  I'm moving it to Gene Splicing.  Cost will be the same but you'll have to work for the privilege of obtaining such a valuable Secret Project.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: Adrianz on May 09, 2018, 11:21:59 AM

For this forum will help me have a lot of knowledge.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on May 11, 2018, 06:32:32 PM

I'm releasing my major mod imminently, which deals with the Human Genome problem and Secret Projects in general, among many other things.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 03, 2018, 12:26:41 PM

Also at the same time, The Peacekeepers get the secret project themselves early in the unmodded game since they got Biogenetics. The bonuses of the Peacekeepers (Talents for every 4 citizens) stacks with the bonuses of this Secret Project so...... Yeah :danc: plus, let's not forget the Hab Complex freedom and you got a Faction that can popboom like crazy from golden ages considering that Lal goes Demo/Planned.....

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 03, 2018, 03:52:25 PM

I completely solved this problem in my mod, to a fault.  Nobody gets a starting tech that makes a Secret Project available.  Secret Projects don't come until the Level 3 tier of techs.  Which in practice, in my mod takes a fair amount of initial expansion and social engineering choices to get to.  All the basic Politics and Economics choices are Level 2 techs, with no Secret Projects blocking their acquisition through trade.  I definitely prefer this setup, where everyone actually has to work to get Secret Projects started, and nobody can start right away.  It allows the necessary initial expansion to take place, without sweating the Secret Projects.

The Human Genome comes from researching Gene Splicing, which is a Level 3 Discover tech.  It has an Explore component as well, as Research Hospitals make people happy, as does the Human Genome.  Anything that gives out Happiness is an Explore tech in my mod, for "colonization and growth".  This by itself would not make Gene Splicing that difficult to get.  But it is hidden behind D2 Information Networks, which is a "pure" Discover tech.  That's a really hard barrier to progress: if you don't choose Discover, you're never getting that tech in the real world.  Eventually you would buy or steal it from someone who did.  The Information Networks barrier is a major characteristic of my mod, and I wonder if I will keep it in place.  I wanted to make The Virtual World hard for anyone to get unless you pursue Discover, and I succeeded.  But The Human Genome is held hostage to that, and I'm not sure I like that.

I could move The Human Genome to an Explore tech, so that players who want to "colonize and grow", will obtain it more readily.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 03, 2018, 04:06:22 PM

And at the same time, I also noticed another thing in your mod. The prerequisites for the Secrets of the Human Brain tech are different and are acquired at a much further line in the tech tree. In the original Alpha Centauri, one of the potential Factions with a close access to that game changing tech are the Peacekeepers (Via Biogenetics) and University (LOLRESEARCH). Despite having the first prerequisite tech for the said tech (Social Psych), it almost seems impossible for Miriam to research it first and activate the SHB tech bonus however due to her stunted research. By placing really some techs up further in the game, you really did balance most of the things that made each and every other Faction unbalanced from one another (I'm looking at you ;zak;, beelining for Secrets.). Since most factions don't have starting techs anymore, that strategy can no longer be abused. Oh, and thankfully Miriam has only -1 Research now, she can finally (somehow) catch up technologically if she goes something else on the Politics SE choices other than fundy :). I usually don't play blind research since I'm more inclined to the classic method of researching in Civ. Although I guess that would make one of the bonuses of the two alien factions rather useless due to the fact that they're the only one who can actually direct their research :-\.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 03, 2018, 05:06:46 PM

In my mod, Fundamentalism is gained from C2 Doctrine:Loyalty, not Secrets of the Human Brain.  Anyone can get Fundamentalism easily.  In fact in an earlier iteration of the mod, Fundamentalism was obtained from Social Psych, as the most primary, basic way that humans organize themselves in groups!

Glad you approve of my changes to Miriam.  I wanted to make her less crippled, and also reduce the game's anti-Christian bias.  Not eliminate, I'm an atheist and don't mind at all if religion takes some knocks.  But those knocks should be more fair.  Christians are not cartoons.  Yang and Zhakarov already have plenty of voice dialogue knocks for the true believers, the game mechanics don't have to grossly stack the deck as well.  I often played my Miram as a Democrat, one of those nice, Lal-friendly theologians.  Religion is what you make of it.

Thanks for taking a look at my mod in general.  I think people are looking, but I don't get a lot of feedback from people about what they saw in it.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 04, 2018, 08:09:36 AM

Quote from: bvanevery on July 03, 2018, 05:06:46 PM

I'm an atheist and don't mind at all if religion takes some knocks.  But those knocks should be more fair.  Christians are not cartoons. 

Exactly! Hell, how did Sister Miriam provide the quote for High Energy Chemistry if she's too anti-science (-2 RESEARCH)?

Quote

"At atrociously high energy states, the properties of matter
change subtly and new miracles become possible. The Plasma
Accretion process is now dangerous and difficult to control, but
its products will soon become commonplace in our society."

            —Sister Miriam Godwinson,
            “The Lord Works”

She is against science, that is true, but it doesn't have to be taken too far at all. She even admits that science makes miracles possible in that quote. She isn't anti-science at all, but rather, she's just against the unethical use of it, which reflects on the -1 RESEARCH in your mod rather than the -2 RESEARCH.

Also:

Quote from: bvanevery on July 03, 2018, 05:06:46 PM

Christians are not cartoons. 

I'm guessing that you've seen the Moral Orel episodes "Holy Visage" and "God's Blunders". If you have not watched yet, then I recommend watching it ;). I'm pretty sure THAT is how -2 RESEARCH would reflect on their society.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 04, 2018, 02:01:15 PM

Quote from: JMN4444 on July 04, 2018, 08:09:36 AM

Exactly! Hell, how did Sister Miriam provide the quote for High Energy Chemistry if she's too anti-science (-2 RESEARCH)?

I think it's probably an accident of their content production process.  I think they started out with several of the characters as mere cartoons.  Santiago, for instance, if you look at her diplomatic dialogue, is nothing more than a one dimensional gun toting right wing nut job.  They probably started with those faction text files because they were easier to produce.  That's why people still do faction mods today, after all: they're fairly easy to bang out.  But somewhere along the way, I think they got a real writer inserted into their process, and Miriam actually started developing a voice.  It was probably noticed that Miriam didn't have enough lines, so they stuck her with "responsibility" for an early line about Chemistry.  They probably figured, well we can't very well have Zhakarov talking about all the various sciences all the time, we need to get other characters in there.  Somehow they came up short as far as giving Miriam anything to really talk about, like what it means to be a Fundie, or cut a big semicircle around the human brain to find its secrets.

In short, their content development was uneven.  They didn't go back to rework stuff that wasn't entirely appropriate or thought out, they just let it be.  Probably more worried about getting the game working.  SMAC is an impressive effort compared to what else has ever been done in the 4X TBS genre, but it's clear the narrative stuff could also be done better.  Maybe I'll get to it, in a new game of my own design.

Quote

I'm guessing that you've seen the Moral Orel episodes "Holy Visage" and "God's Blunders". If you have not watched yet, then I recommend watching it ;). I'm pretty sure THAT is how -2 RESEARCH would reflect on their society.

Didn't even know about it actually.  I'll have to take a look.  I'm a big fan of The Orville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orville), which does plenty of anti-religion knock episodes.

I'm wondering whether I should reduce the Fundamentalist RESEARCH penalty to -1, and give some other penalty to make up for that, although I'm not sure what.  How badly can you really do science?  More importantly, my current version of Fundamentalism is very popular with factions, as it gives a +1 POLICE bonus.  This has the unintended effect of retarding a lot of factions' research, making the player pretty much the supremo, since he/she can choose when or when not to slow down the research.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 04, 2018, 04:51:50 PM

Yeah, I also noticed that too when looking at  ;santi;'s sentences and diplomacy. Also, another thing that bothered me is the fact that when ;lal; demands energy credits from you. Let's take for example (Although possibly least likely to happen), you got the lesser army and ;lal; developed at a crazy rate down to the point where his military becomes so great. Now, ;lal; begins asking for a small "contribution" lest he unleash his military upon you. That's fine with me if he demands stuff from you since maybe it could actually be used somehow by the Peacekeepers for his "humanitarian initiatives".......... That is until you reject his offer.

Suddenly you get the "Nothing Personal" Line. Sure it could fit Yang, Santiago or Miriam considering their innately aggressive nature, but to see ;lal; "Ruthlessly crush my faction"? "Derive great PLEASURE from having me executed"? Wow, talk about humanitarian. I never knew that EVERY faction leader becomes a sadist if you refuse demands. That sounded really off doesn't it? Considering that it came from someone who is often labeled a "Pusillanimous Wimp". Same thing if ;deidre; sees that you have not paid her "ecology tax", she says that very same line like the rest of the Faction leaders. It's less likely to happen, but can you imagine how jarring it is when ;deidre; or ;lal; suddenly "Derive great PLEASURE from having you executed." just because you haven't given to their demands? I also think that there should be a unique Vendetta dialogue for each faction leader that isn't the cause of social engineering, but rather demands. Like i could imagine  ;lal; saying:

 ;lal;: If you cannot contribute for the greater good of humankind, then I have no choice in the matter but to reeducate your citizens. I hope you'll understand the gravity of this situation, but since there's no other way, it has to be done. Vendetta upon you X!

or  ;deidre; saying:

 ;deidre;: The balance of Planet is in our very hands, and since you cannot provide it, then I shall have no choice but to take immediate action. Vendetta on you X! Your selfishness towards Planet will be your undoing!

I would like to imagine the other factions Unmet Demand/Unconditional Vendetta dialogue as well, since the "great PLEASURE from having you executed" line just turns everyone into ;yang; or possibly  ;santi;...... in a roleplaying sense that is......

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 04, 2018, 09:53:49 PM

You're right, they're very out of character.  I wonder if any of it is changeable, or if all factions are stuck with the same lines about execution?  Another bothersome thing is that all factions torture enemy leaders when they eradicate a faction.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: Geo on July 05, 2018, 09:45:06 AM

There's 19 different texts to announce vendetta in the script file.
IIRC, its not each and every time vendetta is declared this particular dialog is used by the opposing leader?

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 05, 2018, 01:53:34 PM

I'm not sure what the execution dialog varies with, but I get it a lot.  I often seem to get it when I first meet a faction, and for no particular reason they decide I should be executed.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: Geo on July 05, 2018, 10:34:08 PM

Must be your playstyle? :P

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 06, 2018, 02:34:57 AM

Exploring early enough to meet factions fairly early?  I don't kiss anyone's butt when I meet them, but I don't threaten anyone either.  Sometimes I get a commlink from a pod, or buy it from another faction.  So this long distance ninny talks about how they're going to execute me from the other side of the map.  We're playing on an Enormous 80x160 map, you'd think the AI could count squares.  It really seems rather pointless.  Much of the time these threats of execution don't even seem particularly ideologically driven.  I probably haven't chosen a form of government yet, and probably neither have they.

Maybe they think my use of Scouts as garrison units at the beginning, is a sign of weakness.  But they work against mindworms just fine, they're cheap, and real enemies are generally far away on the maps I play on.  Even if they are not, I'm fine with a bit of a tech race and stalling, before committing to building more expensive units.  I generally out-grow any local faction.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 09, 2018, 04:34:05 AM

About for my earlier post regarding how rare it is for Lal to say he'll ruthlessly crush my faction, say hello to my latest playthrough as Miriam.
Yes we all know how bonkers Miriam is, then again, this doesn't seem like something ;lal; would likely say if he's defending himself from a horde of fanatics.....

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 09, 2018, 05:46:56 AM

He's channelling his inner Islamist.  I never really had a problem believing in Lal as a Fundamentalist, but I always thought it would manifest as overweening and total UN bureaucracy.  You will obey the rules!

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 09, 2018, 07:30:40 AM

That is what actually makes Alpha Centauri different from most of the other Civ Games at that time. Whereas you only get to choose 1 government in most cases, Alpha Centauri allows you to mix and match to your heart's desire. It's even weirder if you are going to see  ;miriam; going cybernetic, or  ;morgan; going fundy. But I believe the most terrifying Social Engineering choice is that if  ;deidre; went for thought control. Scary SE choice combined with mindworms just makes me think that if others would use Technology to implement it, then I believe that the Gaians would go for something more conventional (Native Lifeforms) to implement such a rule  ???. The possibilities are endless.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 09, 2018, 06:25:41 PM

Morgan going Fundie isn't weird at all.  It's the Church of the Almighty Dollar.  Deirdre as the Thought Police may be terrifying but it's not weird.  In fact it's to be expected, she's an eco-Nazi.  In my mod, Roze requires people to use Thought Control.  My reasoning is that in the future, the power of mind control probes has gone to her head.  It's also game mechanically sound, it's the future society that increases your PROBE rating.  Roze can also make any social engineering choice she wants now.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 10, 2018, 12:45:23 AM

In that sense, Roze can become more versatile than Lal since she could choose whatever SE choices she wants. It could be because of how wildcard the Data Angels are, unpredictable and unexpected, or because of how manipulative Roze is. And because of that, they can also choose any allies as well.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 10, 2018, 01:43:53 AM

Except that Roze does insist on Thought Control.  Which means that if she, Domai, and Aki Zeta5 are around late midgame in my mod, they're all going to war with each other.  Nobody had Thought Control as their personal snit, so I thought someone should.

Now a player, of course, doesn' t have to do Thought Control.  But it's the only way to improve one's PROBE rating in my mod, and PROBE is the main benefit Roze has as a faction.  You could claim that having an ability like The Planetary Datalinks is a benefit, but you could just choose another faction and build The Planetary Datalinks first.  I think an actual human player is very likely to follow in Roze's footsteps, although they'll probably minimax it to have an ultimate +3 PROBE, not +4 PROBE which is wasteful.  I'm not sure if the AI understands that there's no further benefit past some threshold.  In case it does, I deliberately didn't make Roze have any secondary social engineering preference, i.e. seek more PROBE.  In my mod it's redundant anyways, as only Thought Control can increase your PROBE.

I basically threw out the whole "Fundamentalist is for probe teams" mechanic.  Now Fundamentalist is just a variation on Police State, with slightly different benefits and penalties.  I kept "Fundamentalist is for war and bad at research".  I wonder if I'll ever run into a playtester who complains bitterly about what I've done?

BTW nobody had Wealth as their personal snit either, so I thought Svensgaard should have it.  It's boring having him be "Sparta on the water".  He's turned out to be very good as a Builder faction in my current game, he's clearly the #2 power and has had techs I don't have.  I've had to steal from him, and we're getting to the end of the tech tree, so I'd better put him out now with a full assault somehow.  Except my production just isn't working... I need to stare at the unit costs thing again, and see if I should change anything there.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 12, 2018, 04:33:39 AM

Now, it seems that every single faction does have a preference with no SE choice left behind....... Except Planned  :P. Nobody would seem to have it as their preferred Ideology. Maybe I guess ;domai; could be a good choice, but Eudaimonic fits more for him, as the diplomacy screen shows that a Eudamonic Society is referred to as a "Working Man's Paradise", which ;domai; aims for.

Also, about what you've said about Svensgaard being a good builder faction, you could probably agree on that. One of my playthroughs as ;miriam; (Favorite faction ;lol), there were only few factions that remained. And 2 of those were humans (;miriam; and ;ulrik;) and the 2 Progenitors ;caretake;  ;marr;.... In the scoreboard,  ;ulrik; stands as king on the overall section.....

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 12, 2018, 05:21:42 AM

The Aliens of the original game both insist on Planned economy.  Chairman Yang is the only one likely to please them at that, so I figure he's really an Alien.   :P  In my mod, I said Marr wants Power because he's a conqueror.  He's not some economist, and there's no reason why he should choose the same kind of government that his sworn enemy does.

Furthermore in version 1.13 of my mod, I've decided the Caretakers are going to be unable to choose Police State.  The Usurpers are unable to choose Democracy, so I think there should be a tit for tat.  Of course both can choose Fundamentalist, which totally fits both of them.  I think the limitations of each faction should be roughly equal.  Each should have a "can't choose this", and each should have the same number of bonuses and penalties.

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: JMN4444 on July 13, 2018, 02:46:46 AM

Although I do seem to notice that in your mod, when SE reactions are triggered for aliens, they seem to magically get human dialogue. Since they did originally get Planned for their SE choice (Which had a dialogue for them), once they have Power as their SE choice, because there was no specific alien line for them, they sound human without the "Progenitor:stuff:stuff" thing.

Maybe a unique alien dialogue for all SE choices could fix that?

Title: Re: Human Genome shouldn't be cake
Post by: bvanevery on July 13, 2018, 03:06:55 AM

Not shocked; was sort of expecting that.  I can look whether anything Alien specific can be done.  Don't know whether they provided complete possibilities, or only what was needed for the Alien changes they actually made.

The names for all the events appear in Script.txt.  For Marr's new interest in Power, one would want to implement various SOCIAL2CATxxxx events.  There are no such events in the alienuscript.txt file, but maybe if some are put there, the aliens will start using them.