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I just watched last night's Dragon Ball Super, featuring the conclusion of the (endless-seeming) Tournament of Power arc, and I have to say, it's the most satisfying episode I've seen of the multi-series adventures of Goku since the very clever English dub of the first season of Dragon Ball that first caught my interest in the mid-90s.
-Unlike most American fans, I gather, I actually started w/ stubby little boy-Goku. My first impulse was to just post a commentary on the Super episode and the entire Goku corpus in my personal thread, and see if anyone bit - but it deserves a thread in case anyone has any interest and anything interesting to say. It's of a piece with my love of simplistic superhero comics that I've always wished there was anyone here shared enough to generate good conversation. Siigh - if ONLY Vishniac hadn't foolishly engineered a falling-out with me over his poor taste in fake "Star Trek".
Dragon Ball, in it's many incarnations, is the story of Goku, a magic boy in a rather fantasy(/SF fusion) setting, inspired by Son Wukong of the ancient Chinese classic Journey to the West. He's hopelessly naïve, being metaphorically raised by wolves, and awesomely superhuman even as a child, and faces a big world and the adventure to be had in it with charming laughter and enthusiasm.
All iterations of his story are, like Goku himself, profoundly simplistic/moronic, and everyone familiar enough with the show(s) to have an inkling of what I'm talking about and dismiss it as for kids and 'tards certainly ain't wrong. Oh, you could literally write a whole series of books focusing on all the pathetic story-telling of the shows with character personalities and reactions stupid by even children's anime standards. -And inept, mistaken, plot structural decisions, most notably the shows turning into mostly fights that last, not just an episode, but more than one, and several that notoriously lasted much longer. The big single showdown fight with Freeza in Dragon Ball Z lasted an entire season, fer christsakes. I've noticed that other fans, in those places around the nets they gather, prefer the apocalyptic forever-fights, and write fanfic with freakin' power-level tables at the bottom of each chapter - emotional/aesthetic 'tards, indeed.
However, there are jewels in the pile of crap that is the Dragon Ball/Goku canon.
-See, Dragon Ball, et. al., is the story of Goku, the magic boy w/ monkey tail as mentioned above, who grows up and loses the tail -and, unfortunately, the fantasy overtones in his world- to be very much he same person as a man, dumb and laughing, never read a book in his life, and amiable/charming, always enthused for adventure, an athlete whose sport is whoopin' butt, eager for a challenge and a spar - who happens to save the entire world a lot doing it.
He is full of win and charm and charisma, and the show's frequently funny, starring a dummy as it does, and the vast majority of net fans who hate the comedy and 'filler' are IDIOTS, tasteless emotionally-crippled children of all ages, and nothing but.
And the Superman v. Goku arguments hard to miss heavily polluting the nets invariably miss some essential points, like why are they fighting? Which version of Superman? What's at stake? Superman is his max power all the time, and retarded about just putting an enemy down fast and not taking chances, but everyone on all incarnations of Dragon Ball -especially Goku- is profoundly even more retarded about giving some super-turd out to kill his wife and child and friends and the entire world a chance to recover and make it an interesting fight. -Not exactly the guy I want on call when Galactus shows up to eat Earth (though Goku would eventually win and the Earth would get wished back if destroyed during).
So anyway, people's web analysis/portrayals of Supes v. Goku only serve to reveal their bias for which one they like better. Mine is for Superman, sure, I've known him a lot longer and think moving planets takes more strength than blowing them up -and Goku loses all the time when nothing's at stake, while top-power-version Superman stories tend to be about not whether he'll win, but how- and while that's my bias at work, doggonit, the logic scans. Fact is, those two guys would like each other just fine, and absent a something-at-stake setup, would only fight because Goku might totally sock Superman for fun and the challenge when he saw all teh Kryptonian Awesome.
Assume highest-power versions for both, and no setup/stakes to bias the outcome, throw away personal preference - and that there's anybody's fight, both being capable of getting beaten up when nothing else is at stake. (Out of character to have Superman go into an arena or something just to fight some guy, but I already covered that Goku might get carried away -it's in character- and go at him hard w/o obtaining consent for a spar first.) -But Supeman sleeps at his max power, and Goku shouldn't have a chance to power up enough to even keep up, and that ain't bias talking, that's I know both guys really well, and Goku has a chance at all only if the story needs him to.
It's a basic futility of who'dwins; Hawkeye might have the best day of his life (and/or luck) v. Batman (needs of the story, etc.), Bats might take mildly super-human best-fighter-in-his-world Captain America, Cap could very plausibly stomp Spider-Man, (who can lift (press) 15 tons to Cap's 800 pounds, and has five other superpowers including being faster) Spidey once notoriously defeated Firelord, and Firelord is cosmic enough to not be a joke if he managed to whip Superman good. -Or if the story needs it, skip all the intermediaries and have powerless (assume no Goliath powers) human athlete Hawkeye -or Green Arrow if the casual crossovers bother you- have a Kryptonite gas arrow at hand. -Hawkeye once punked cosmic-powered Elder of the Universe, The Collector.
Who'dwins are great fun, but you need to own that it's stupid going in and live with that, or else you're stupid...
Go watch the episode before reading the rest, if you care, or don't dare say SPOILERS to me after.
EDIT: Wait; I'll spare you a search. Even if you can't see the videos anymore like me, the line underneath is a hyperlink.
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgR456n3AWA#)
SO - Dragon Ball Super excelled itself last night. It was obvious which team would win before it even started, with the universe at stake. I figured out the eventual wish literally middle of last year, and all doubt was removed when Universe 6 was deleted - the show plainly loves Hit and the alt. Sayians way too much to throw away. I'd surmised about the beginning of this calendar year that Freeza's low level of involvement was going to carry him to the end of the battle royal tournament, and win it for Universe 7, and they jiggered almost exactly that well to avoid the problem of Freeza coming out of hiding to be last being standing w/o his wish on the Super Dragon Balls making the entire multiverse a Hell Forever.
It's a stupid show, and I'm not stupid and saw all the key points coming - but they made it work anyway. The musical score was very effective during the sequence of the heroes of the restored universes looking to the sky - it had grandeur, actual I-bought-it grandeur, in how it all came together perfectly.
BU gives it an A+, the first one a Goku show episode has ever earned. BU sez check it out, but only if you know Goku, or watch everything from Dragon Ball on first...
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:zzz:
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They lost me after the cell games in Z.
But, as any Poly folks might recall, I was rather partial to Piccolo, and he become an afterthought at this same time, so that probably played into it.
Kyle was raised watching Dragon Ball and Z during his night-time feedings and on through his toddler years when it become popular enough to be on during the day. I once actually changed from cable to direct TV just because cable dropped the channel playing the series.
We have a collection of well used toys, I'd get from oriental markets during west coast travel trips back then as well.
Alec come up through the Buu saga and the horrid GT series. Neither of us ever got that invested in either.
However, we did get a lot of the games from PS2 and 3, so I'm vaguely aware of plot points as they continued from those.
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You are correct about Piccolo, utterly so - and save the Great Saiyaman opening part, the Buu saga was a steaming pile - and most DBZ 'tard drooling-spazbos on the nets wrongly think opposite on the latter, but do agree about Piccolo.
Cell was also terrible - Dr. Gero and the fat Chinese android (who had this creepy first-season-of-Wild Wild West thing going) were better than 17 and 18 were better than stupid boring obvious Cell.
Yo, nothing but great FANTASTIC story potential with Piccolo; he used to be the Devil, and he also used to be God (and he also used to be Nail, which also has potential). You could just leave his green butt forever back in the second power tier -which you shouldn't; that was a stupid mistake- and still tell great and intriguing stories about him and Namkeian stuff.
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-Also? In case anyone's 4chan meme-savvy enough to get it, Here's Your Daily Dose.
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Piccolo's easy enough to fix, anyway -just for the over-the-top battling part- with a god-power power-up putting him back competitive/first rank for good.
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:zzz:
I SAID in the OP that the show's stupid and not for many people here - now, you're right, and please stay out of my thread if that's all you got.
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They lost me after the cell games in Z.
But, as any Poly folks might recall, I was rather partial to Piccolo, and he become an afterthought at this same time, so that probably played into it.
Kyle was raised watching Dragon Ball and Z during his night-time feedings and on through his toddler years when it become popular enough to be on during the day. I once actually changed from cable to direct TV just because cable dropped the channel playing the series.
We have a collection of well used toys, I'd get from oriental markets during west coast travel trips back then as well.
Alec come up through the Buu saga and the horrid GT series. Neither of us ever got that invested in either.
However, we did get a lot of the games from PS2 and 3, so I'm vaguely aware of plot points as they continued from those.
Don't forget your "rivalry" with MrWIA...
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It was of interest because my nephew who's now a freshman in college took an interest in it. So sometimes we are on a scavenger hunt for Dragon ball sweatshirts, etc. I think he's more interested in the video game. But it's nice to know what it is about.
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I think I did a good job in the opening articulating the high points of both the actual appeal -you have to
like LOVE silly Goku- and what-all's flatly incompetent - the pacing's the worst and everyone fights stupid.
(Superman v. Goku is only worth it for knowing what people are having slap-fights over, if you're into neither, and dunno if yu'd want read about the episode so you can talk about to the nephew...)
:zzz:
the code you want there is ;bored
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:zzz:
the code you want there is ;bored
I think I'll keep it as it is... the sentiment gets through... but thanks the same...
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Not even I like that one all that much, and I drew it...
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Nevertheless...
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I believe you must have misread my last...
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I reached the superman conclusion as I read the OP. Superman was my leas favorite superhero. I preferred to admire smart people. Bat man. I also liked the Flash because it dabbled in relativity science. Even Lex's schemes were more interesting than superman, who never seemed to learn from his mistakes.
But what I really wanted to say was I read a woman's comments about how the Wonder Woman movie made her feel empowered- like she could walk through walls and accomplish anything. Everybody should have a super to identify with. I'm so glad they did Black Panther for that reason.
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100% agreement on the second. WW with a sword is very wrong, though.
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WW with a sword is very wrong, though.
I kind of liked it, made her more realistic, especially in relation to the warrior thing...
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Siiigh.
Okay, I'll go find a couple CFC posts I made last week that thrash that out better than I feel like on a busy afternoon...
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https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/superheroes.544614/page-29#post-15067766
There was a missed little moment in the Busiek/Perez JLA/Avengers, when in the merged timeline and in a pastiche to the old annual JLA/JSA get-together/crossovers they were doing it with the Avengers, and WW says something about having known Cap for many years from the meetings and his distinguished career going back to WWII --- and there was no reason, in that timeline, not to have her say they'd known each other since they punched Nazis together in WWII.
Modern Wonder Woman -and a sword is exactly wrong for her to ever be waving- has a notably weak rogues gallery, a situation the TV show underlined by not using any of them but generic Nazis in general the first season, and making up their own even-weaker villains for seasons two and three - and those latter seasons were nigh-infinitely not-as-good. Henry Gibson as Mr. Mariposa, anyone? Comics writers are never going to know what to do with her -a problem many of them have been talking about since I could first read- until they figure out how to make Dr. Psycho work.
Why would someone from an island of Amazon warriors NOT be skilled with a sword? The first quarter of the movie, which seemed a fairly faithful follower of the origin story from the comics, had the entire population of the island training with swords pretty much constantly. I thought the sword getting slagged was a pretty nice touch, and would think that since she would want to be more able to blend in she wouldn't want to get a replacement and then have to tote it around all the time, but I didn't have a problem with it.
It does a basic symbolic violence to her central nature, and my confidence that creator Dr. Moulton would passionately agree approaches 100%. A sword is lingam, the magic lasso looped to tie is yoni, and while you may party on with your own bad self in finding such symbolism bull, it's pretty primal in-your-face obvious/inescapable. Her central premise is girlpower-yay (ignoring all the bondage stuff in there originally because her creator was a freak, but I daresay most everyone is fine with overlooking that part) and the former is a wounding weapon; the latter a tool of restraint and peace, fighter for peace and bringing-Aphrodite's-love-to-Man's-World being right in there inextricably since her beginning. It's gnawing at the roots, man.
Nuthin' wrong with a slashin', butt-kickin' powerful warrior princess, and that IS a very valid sort of girl-power-yay - but you want to create a new character for that -or perhaps put anti-Wondy Artemis in the Justice League or something- not have the Ambassador of Love to Man's World snapping Maxwell Lord's neck and running people through with a symbolic peepee, of all the things in the world. It's like telling stories about being an old-fashioned authoritarian square taken to evil lengths and megaviolence and too-much-killing using Captain America instead of USAgent, who was created for exactly that. Why Mark Waid, of all people, made the mistake of starting the sword crap, I'll never understand.
Gnawing. at. the. roots.
Well, given that at her roots we find Steve Trevor, superheroic spy guy with girl sidekick, followed by joining the JSA as their secretary I think taking a big chomp or two out of them was pretty much a necessity.
Naw - you deliberately distort Steve's role -as the love interest, he's pretty foundational, but he's Louis Lane falling out windows for her to rescue- and character premise not responsible for misuse in a team book, even the revered JSA. -You know your stuff to bring that up, though.
Now, a better counter would be to point out the sheer incredible volume, in her original Moulton-Peter run, of how much she was tied up and helpless. Not exactly gurl-powah-yay, especially having her bracelets being bound by a man canceling her powers being explicitly built-in. -But I already mentioned a pretty universal consensus to ignore the bondage stuff to death, as indeed, everyone has done for far over a generation since the creators moved on.
She simply has no business killing any more than Superman and Batman, though coming at it from a different angle from them. I surmise that the sword business in Kingdom Come, that afaik started that, was intended to show that she, like Supey and the other 'old-school' heroes, hadn't gone as wrong as the killer 'heroes' they fought, but they had gone wrong - rather explicitly the point of the ending...
Still wanna step up, playah?
Plainly, I really could use Vishniac in here - CFC's got a lot of great people, but time spent somewhere else don't build activity here, and is sorta wasted.
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I reached the superman conclusion as I read the OP. Superman was my leas favorite superhero. I preferred to admire smart people. Bat man. I also liked the Flash because it dabbled in relativity science. Even Lex's schemes were more interesting than superman, who never seemed to learn from his mistakes.
The only thing you say about Superman that I agree with is that he could/should whip Goku, proper.
The Gene Hackman Luthor said, in Superman II as he was about to sic the Nuclear Man clone-thing on him and Superman had instantly worked out how Luthor trapped him: "That what I'm going to miss about you, my boy; you were the only one who could ever keep up with me!"
You've got Superman -a Super-Genius up to 1987, and always very bright- confused with what Luthor and any other mad scientists liked to claim as insults.
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The only thing I ever felt strongly about surrounding the man of steel is how they completely missed the boat with the death of superman.
How could you NOT have that be at Lex's hand?
Wait, I lie.
The grounded series, where they had the contest and made this big deal about him visiting real cities, they royally bungled my home town of Ogden.
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Jesus, you should see the -early Rankin Bass, by the looks of it- bungle of Morganton, NC, my county seat, in a cartoon of Jules Verne's Master of the World . The people making didn't know [poop] about North Carolina, let alone Morganton, a major regional center before the 20th century, the place where they took and tried the governor of Franklin when they caught him. Cartoon had Morganton looking like a one-horse town in a western. No trees anywhere in Victorian times; there's freakin' trees everywhere in Morganton now.
And holy crap you're right. The biggest opportunity ever to build up cred for the most famous villain at DC to slaughter his arch, they're ver most famous single character, and they made up a crazy-lame spiked hulk knockoff instead. Dang, are you ever right.
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the fat Chinese android (who had this creepy first-season-of-Wild Wild West thing going)
Uno, I don't recall that we've ever discussed that villains in the first B&W season of Wild Wild West often had that big tough monster with a tiny voice creepy thing going. If you do not know the season well, run, do not walk, is my advice, and get familiar, and let's talk.
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WW with a sword is very wrong, though.
I kind of liked it, made her more realistic, especially in relation to the warrior thing...
Comics canon Wonder Woman I don't know but yeah, I remember the TV-series with her bulletproof armbands and her lasso. A sword can probably make her as out-of-context as Captain America with a gun but let's consider...
Obviously this analogy shows that there's nothing particularly feminine in the fact of not using killing weapons since Cap refrains to kill. (it was even the reason for his first shift from Iron Man at the end of Operation Galactic Storm)
Now, you could kill with this shield (he almost did in Infinity Crusade while taken by religious fanaticism). So you could probably kill someone with a lasso (strangling or hanging. HANG'EM HIGH! 8) ) while fighting by sword is no assurance of seeing someone dead (the first Pirates of the Carribean being a perfect exemple :D )
In the end, it all come down to who is WW's tutelar godess.
If it's Aphrodite, Goddess of Love, that would explain this disdain for sharp tools.
But that could well be Athena, a warrior herself though not as primary as Ares. Athena is known for her shield and her spear but sometimes she has more: you'll find down there the pic of an Athena statue of mine (in fighting pose) and at her left side...a sword.
Maybe it's the symbolism that shocks people from seeing women with swords, or modern pseudo-feminism advocating women into pacifism contrary to men's warmongering but history showed they can be equally tough and aggressive, like the real Amazons (https://www.amazon.com/Amazons-Black-Sparta-Warriors-Dahomey/dp/0814707726 (https://www.amazon.com/Amazons-Black-Sparta-Warriors-Dahomey/dp/0814707726)) and their current representation in western media
(https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/i-OF_aeOaxB8SX6xbm0n_oGE8eM/fit-in/2048xorig/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2018/02/18/878/n/1922283/tmp_VVmutN_f1c17a15745213f3_BlackPanther5a68e7526439f.jpg)
So maybe you think Wonder Woman shouldn't kill.
But General Okoye? Without question!
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Well, that's exactly right about Athena.
But WW was originally all Aphrodite, (though Dr. Moulton either didn't know his classical mythology -unlikely for an educated man of a generation when colleges tended to require Latin- or simply couldn't go there or NEVER wanted to, as the Greeks had no major goddess of Philos and/or Agape love, and Aphrodite was about Eros [screwing], but still closest/only famous goddess to fit at all what the creators wanted for a girls' role-model Woman paradigm, being Goddess of Love) all the time.
The Woman paradigm thing made Athena problematic; a spear is an even more obvious phallus than a sword. Wonder Woman is supposed to be about the opposite of pee-pees, at least not doing the penetrating.
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Uno, you've met Guru; have you seen the advent of King Piccolo on Dragon Ball no-Z?
Namekians, wen they get really powerful and old, grow HUGE, and not very mobile at all. King Piccolo was giant - maybe two whole heads taller than the very-tall Piccolo Jr. - no explanation for why Kami was the same height as plain Piccolo and still mobile, but maybe God power stuff. King Piccolo apparently aged the 300 years he was maufba-trapped in the rice cooker.
Very first appearance, they'd skipped Emperor Pilaf and gang freeing him -that kinda writes itself, so Toryama didn't- and he's sitting in a big throne chair on Pilaf's flying fortress asleep. His hands were huge drapped over the armrests. His color was olive sorta, not the bright green Jr. is. His mutant Namekian pterodactyl-looking son Piano worries constantly for his welfare, especially when he spit up another mutant son-egg to send out to kill the super-kung fu set.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Clearly, Namekians -at least superNamekians who've reached a certain power tier and aged naturally 300 years or so- get superpowerful and giant, but sedentary in their old age and have a strong instinct to spawn like mad before they die, even though it hastens their death.
Also? You ever notice a majority of Namekians, sometimes Piccolo, too, wear something covering their necks? Check this: though ungendered, they reproduce by vomiting eggs that distend their necks on the way up, and so -I figure this has to be- they cover their necks as their naughty-bits...
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Since I'm revisiting psychology (helping Kyle) lately, you're coming off like a freudian case study in this thread...
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Freud was -okay and often right- on abnormal psychology; he was an intuitive pre-scientific pioneer who nonetheless did a lot of harm insisting his theories were UNIVERSAL and applied to EVERYONE, not just sick freaks like he himself WAS and some involuntarily-committed, drooling, completely non-functional, actually-playing-with-their-own poop, clinically INSANE case-studies he found. A lot of reasonably normal people with issues have been harmed by his dogmatism and cult following insisting on perpetuating his profound error that everyone shared his disgusting kinks for well over a hundred years.
Now, I have my issues, and I meet most reasonable standards of what people consider a broken person - but I'm not anything LIKE howling at the moon crazy, and I'm absolutely not a severely sexually-twisted SICK freak like "Dr." Freud most assuredly was - and that's insulting as hell. Pick another shrink next time, please. He was contemptible and wrong.
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Phone, bear with me.
I’m sorry. Freud seemed most appropriate when you’ve spent most the thread talking about sexual symbolism. I wasn’t trying to calm you crazy. Just point out the seeming fixation in discourse.
Speaking of the symbolism, however, I think you are wrong on WW. Specifically as it’s the origin story. Extending your own analogy, she ultimately loses the sword and finds that she is stronger without it. In fact taking in the entire story you could argue her early reliance on the sword was all part of her innocence/naivety. As comics are representative of the time they are written, this journey of her thinking she needed the sword and discovering she doesn’t is particularly poignant. She doesn’t need to be equal to a man by grasping the phallic symbol. She can be her own strength.
(Caveat, I have only seen WW, not any team up movies. If they’ve continued the sword theme beyond the origin story, that is indeed stupid)
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Your WW point is excellent - I haven't seen the movie yet, but if she starts with a sword and decides that's off-model for who she is and wants to be, no violence is done to her premise/purpose as a character - indeed, that underlines the Woman (ultra-violence-is-for-men-I've-got-a-better-way) Paradigm thing and enhances it.
Sexual symbolism IS everywhere, Freud wasn't wrong about that, just about the details. We are a sexual species. It's hard-wired into our brains. I'm speaking as a writer in many of my remarks, thinking about underpinnings of the story - surely unintended stuff for asexual Namekians, but there on the page anyway, and the most FOUNDATIONAL, PRIMAL element of Wonder Woman being that she IS Woman; it's what she's for.
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-Also, I prefer B.F. Skinner, who, in reaction to Freud and his dogmatic minions reading sick motives into everything, founded Behaviorism, a psychological school that only dealt with what could be directly observed and complex human reactions. It was actually scientific, thus punking Freud hard (and also Jung and his much-better archetypes and collective unconscious stuff that came between and is much-better thought of today by sane shrinks than Freud).
My last therapist agreed - I said it first, but Dr. my-last-therapist did agree completely.
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Don't forget Yung...
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I didn't, sir.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung
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I once had an abnormal psych professor that asserted that Freud was misrepresented by other psychologists to discredit him. The motivation being that Freud asserted you could do the therapy-stuff by yourself and thus putting other psychologists out of business. And thus the sexual fixation and other things were over-emphasized and otherwise misapplied.
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What I know about him is sick puppy, and he's for sure mostly incorrect for normal people with normal issues, and the Psychoanalysis school is a dogmatic cult. I cannot speak to the emphasis and motivations of other no matter how much attention I pay - precisely Freud's central mistake.
[shrug] He did find Ratman. We may not reasonably claim he was wrong about Ratman. He was right about much Abnormal Psychology.
-Probably informs your teacher's reaction, being as how when you're a hammer, all the world looks like nails. My last therapist wanted to treat Everything with Neurotherapy...
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Time to bring Goku and/or funny-book stuff back up, folks. Heroic adventure fiction is the topic, though we can certainly split off debating psychology and such if anyone wants...
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... the Woman (ultra-violence-is-for-men-I've-got-a-better-way) Paradigm thing ...
Isn't it a very modern and political view of Wonder Woman?
Of the 4 main heroes created before or around WWII that I know: Captain America, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, the woman doesn't stand out as more loving or pacific. All four are especially characterized by their trait of not killing enemies. There was an uproar when fans saw Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel; a contrario some people were cheering for Batman killing gangsters in Batman vs Superman but it shows how out of character that was too.
To be fair, there aren't many super-heroes who really kill their enemies: Spiderman, Fnatastic Four, even Iron Man the most anticommunist hero or Daredevil the vigilante don't indulge into cold-blood killing or even hot. Enemies die by accident or disintegrated by their own devices...
Until recently of course with the famous turn around with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns by 1985-87. Then suddenly semi-outlaws like Wolverine and the Punisher who were making some cameos got their own series where they could leave a trail of blood behind them...
But usually super-heroes don't kill also because 1-comics were at first for kids and 2-authors didn't want to re-invent super-villains all the time so the bad guys were put in jail and escaped and put in jail and escaped and... (Seriously, in real life, how much times can the Joker escape and kill civilians by terror before someone decide it's just good policy to terminate him while he's sleeping in jail?)
So no: in comics, ultra-violence is unisexual.
Psychologist digression
While Morgan would say that "Human behavior is economic behavior", I'd go as far as saying that "Human behavior is animal behavior". Thus, I loved the work of Konrad Lorenz, the ethologist, on animal agression...and I still use his lessons to this day even at my work... ;nod
And to link comics to your digression:
(https://img.pr0gramm.com/2015/02/28/3e31b13e95b3daf1.jpg)
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Holy CRAP, Vish! That's beautiful for tying it all together. ;b; ;b; ;b; ;b; ;b; ;b;
-More on WW and my reaction soon.
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What about deadpool??
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What about deadpool??
About who?
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A BLATANT Deathstroke the Terminator rip-off from Rob Liefield on (gag) X-Force. -Since become a breaking-the-forth-wall humor character, because he was mouthy and unserious to begin with, and become very successful as something like Slade Wilson had Ambush Bug's baby who got his "mother"'s looks and MO, AB's mouth and knows he's in comic books.. Deadpool's real name is Wade Wilson, he was SO blatant a ripoff.
Hit movie starring Ryan Reynolds.
Are you REALLY asking? Humor translates with difficulty, so it may not have made it to Europe...
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Deadpool was after The Watchmen so his point stands on that.
However, Captain America killed a few folks early on. Moon Knight did regularly early on despite the ccc and I’m sure there was plenty of killing in the horror comics before the ccc.
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Cap is a special case on pure-virtue hero not killing, as implicit at his very roots is Super-Soldier. He should never kill much, VERY rarely because he is so damn good a fellow. -But he had to have shot/decapitated wehrmacht who were about to shoot Bucky or Sgt. Fury and Easy Co.
He didn't like having to do in Baron Blood, a super strong Vampire (they are predators of humans, and nothing else, and need killin' SO bad) who he was wrestling with on the floor. It was Cap or the killer, y'know?
Every one of the hardcore no-kill virtuous heroes has a surprisingly individual reason, for characters created for trashy-cheap children's adventure fictions.
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Uno, I was only answering his question, re; Deadpool not reacting to any "point". Being comedy Deathstroke and a villain(sometimes anti) like Mom, oh LORD does he kill the just and unjust alike. No, totally on the Wolvie/punisher grin-n-gritty killer spectrum, if a special comedy case.
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Phone. I was responding to et. It took that long to post because I entered a dead zone.
I’m fairly sure the fantastic four had some early killing before moving to the more pacifist nature. I’m not sure when the cca (sorry for the autocorrect above) kicked in and whether it caused the more pacifist shift in them (or cap). But it’s hard to judge heroes created under the cca (comic commission authority) as any hero that didn’t get cca approval was dead in the water for quite some time. Watchmen helped prove a market existed without the cca but it was hardly the first and the cca was already crumbling.
Without that censorship, I highly doubt a lot of the “no killing” would be present to the degree it is.
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I'll think about the FF and get back to you, but I think you're wrong - and the Comics Code Authority goes back to --- 1953(?)
(It was kinda, sorta a bunch of other publishers taking out Bill Gaines and EC [Eerie, Creepy - comics for you, if not good] more than actual fear of congress.)
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I'll think about the FF and get back to you, but I think you're wrong - and the Comics Code Authority goes back to --- 1953(?)
(It was kinda, sorta a bunch of other publishers taking out Bill Gaines and EC [Eerie, Creepy - comics for you, if not good] more than actual fear of congress.)
I know it started as the let's get rid of the horror comics, banning vampires and such. I'm not sure at what time it got all super sensitive protect the chillins, however as it was constantly being reformed censoring and allowing different things. My experience is obviously 70s and earl 80s, having to pick and search through the archive at the store to find the horror collectibles. So, possible I am wrong, but I know at least some kinds of killing were against some members in charge of the commission.
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Ahhh. The code was harder on the undead more than anything I recall - which doesn't really make sense, as a vampire is an even better natural villain than a Nazi. This was the McCarthy era, remember, and there was just something in the air...
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Are you REALLY asking? Humor translates with difficulty, so it may not have made it to Europe...
It was purely a mark of disdain.
I have never read Deadpool, it came after I bought everything Marvel. Since then I bought old titles related to what I like and focus on new ones with a few chosen characters. I probably fell on 1 or 2 episodes but it didn't impress me. 4th wall talking is not to my liking and She-Hulk by Byrne that so many encense I found awful. (If you ask why I read her then, that's because we had magazines with 3-4 different series inside. One would be Daredevil + Iron Man + 2xSpiderman, another FF + She-Hulk + Silver Surfer, ...)
The trailer of the movie left me cold and hearing people talk about the movie made me sure I wouldn't waste time for it or the next one going out these days. Too much crap humor full-time! Not that it's exclusive to Deadpool: Gardians of the Galaxy was acceptable, Gardians 2 was really bad (poor jokes all along the movie, repeated 2-3 times. It gets old very fast) and Thor Ragnarok I just decided I wouldn't pay and will watch it on netflix one day with friends. That constant forced humor is hurting this franchise. Making Thor some buffoon I wouldn't stand.
Let's hope the sobriety of Black Panther (a few funny quotes and that's it) and Thanos putting some heroes to rest in peace will convince Kevin Feige he can burst the box-office with adult movies.
So, no. No Deadpool for me.
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Me neither. I've only seen the first Iron Man and the first Avengers, (and first X-Men and first Spider-Man and first Fantastic Four - and lastly and ironically, X-Men: First Class, which was my favorite of the highly-meh Fox movies) if anyone wants to get into talking about the MCU stuff.
Superman: The Movie not only is still in the first rank of comic book movies, but despite considerable flaws (old and pretty 70s, somehow, weak Lois, weak Lex, the Can You Read My Mind flying sequence was and always will be painful to sit through, the time-backup didn't make sense as shown) I will fight on the hill -and win- of saying it may still be in first place.
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RE: Thor Ragnarok, it is a very good movie. Thor was the perfect choice in the MCU for that kind of humour.
That being said, I don't read comics and dislike them in general. My exposure to the Marvel characters is restricted to the movie screen. I thought Thor in Ragnarok was great, based on the Thor in the MCU. Perhaps it's awful when using comic Thor as the foundation.
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I tried to watch Deadpool again the other day but couldn't get through it. I enjoyed it quite a bit in the theater, a friend had doubted if the jokes/references etc would hold up over time. Apparently she was right.
Thor: Ragnarok was the only MCU film I intentionally skipped. The trailers were off-putting for me.
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RE: Thor Ragnarok, it is a very good movie. Thor was the perfect choice in the MCU for that kind of humour.
That being said, I don't read comics and dislike them in general. My exposure to the Marvel characters is restricted to the movie screen. I thought Thor in Ragnarok was great, based on the Thor in the MCU. Perhaps it's awful when using comic Thor as the foundation.
I'll second Thor: Ragnarok as enjoyable. Not quite as good as the first guardians, but nowhere near as bad as the trailers made it look.
Caveat, I didn't care for comic book Thor, or MCU Thor prior to Ragnarok. The switch in tone WORKS.
That's not to say they didn't suffer some casualties as a result of that switch. Loki is relegated to a punch line, and they more or less blew up the lore behind Thor. He just FINALLY doesn't come off as an ass.
BU: Go watch WW. I know many super geeky comic guys who have held that superman as the best origin story, if not comic book movie as #1, and they've all come away from WW as it either being the new #1, or a close #2.
It wasn't all that to me to be honest. Good movie, but I was never invested.
Deadpool: Eh.
Probably out of order, but rough rating IMO:
Iron Man 1 :)
Captain America 1 ::)
Iron Man 2 ???
Captain america 2 :-\
Thor 1 :(
Thor 2 ;q;
Avengers 1 :)
Guardians: 8)
Ant Man 8)
Iron Man 3 ;q;
Captain America 3 ;q;
Avengers 2 :mad: (ruin a good villain with a great voice...)
Guardians 2 :(
Dr Strange :)
Thor 3 :)
Oh, and that aint SPIDER MAN. WTF?
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Gail Godot does not make my eyes hurt - and the worst thing I've heard about the movie is a well-reasoned argument that Kaiser Bill was no Hitler, and putting her in WWI was unjustified taking-of-sides in an actual moral swamp, wrong for a paragon character.
It's one I do intend to see when the opportunity strikes.
Edit: Correction. I heard Hippolyta, WW's mom, was a character, and I also STR that Linda Carter had a tiny cameo, yet doesn't seem to have played Hippolyta. Yo, LC looks like an immortal Amazon even yet, and THAT'S the worst thing I've heard about the movie, if so.
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Ooo, rankings. My weakness.
Iron Man 1 :)
Captain America 1 :)
Iron Man 2 :(
Captain America 2 :D
Thor 1 :meh:
Thor 2 :meh:
Avengers 1 :)
Guardians 1 :)
Ant Man :meh:
Iron Man 3 :(
Captain America 3 :D
Avengers 2 :meh:
Guardians 2 :(
Doctor Strange :(
Spiderman :)
Thor 3 :D
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Iron Man 1 :D
Captain America 1 :)
Iron Man 2 :(
Captain America 2 :D
Thor 1 :)
Thor 2 ;wince
Avengers 1 :)
Guardians 1 ;nod
Ant Man ;bored
Iron Man 3 ;wince
Captain America 3 :D
Avengers 2 ???
Guardians 2 :)
Doctor Strange :-\ (upgraded to :) after further viewings)
Spiderman [I forgot to go watch this]
Thor 3 [Chose to skip, later watched on netflix] ;no
Black Panther :-\
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HATED Batman, BTW. -And not the usual Keaton-hating angle, either. I think Tim Burton is utter crap when he's not doing his 'spider-web cute' stuff, as I call it, that his heart's obviously in, usually starring teh Depp.
I didn't even hate Batman and Robin as much, and it wasn't even competent as a movie, other than on some camp appreciation level. Haven't seen the last couple, but deem none of them I have very good Batman movies, at all, (though the second with Michelle Pfeiffer had it's moments - ones that she was in)...
Batman (66?) w/ Adam West is --- another matter. It succeeded utterly in being the kind of movie they intended to make, for good or ill.
-Any interest in Burton's 'spider-web cute' oeuvre, Uno?
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Gail Godot does not make my eyes hurt - and the worst thing I've heard about the movie is a well-reasoned argument that Kaiser Bill was no Hitler, and putting her in WWI was unjustified taking-of-sides in an actual moral swamp, wrong for a paragon character.
It's one I do intend to see when the opportunity strikes.
Edit: Correction. I heard Hippolyta, WW's mom, was a character, and I also STR that Linda Carter had a tiny cameo, yet doesn't seem to have played Hippolyta. Yo, LC looks like an immortal Amazon even yet, and THAT'S the worst thing I've heard about the movie, if so.
I liked the WWI version better than the WWII stories with her I've read/seen, though ultimately, I think that was a financial decision.
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Linda Carter was the only possible Hippolyta! :mad:
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-Any interest in Burton's 'spider-web cute' oeuvre, Uno?
I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to, to be honest.
Burton makes a bunch of crap with the occasional gem, much like Hollywood, but they don't have to be the creepy side. In fact many of those he makes suck.
Beetlejuice and Edward Scissorhands are up there among his best, but so is Big Fish.
And Corpse Bride and Frankenweenie (animated) just proved that Nightmare Before Christmas was only good because he stayed the hell out of it despite getting the name on the title.
I will say, I would have loved to have seen what he did with Maleficent over what we got...
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Linda Carter was the only possible Hippolyta! :mad:
I typically frown on fan service.
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[ninja'd] Oh, artistically, it's a whorish mistake to have people from the TV show being adapted do cameos at all, and impractical of craft, besides. You can't afford time for wall-breaking elements in a finite single feature film. -Carter, however, is almost 70, looks in her 50s, and is tall, still beautiful, and just right for the part, fan service aside.
All the Burton movies you mention, save Big Fish which I haven't seen, are spider-web cute examples. It's a metaphor.
WW Digression: When the show was moved to CBS and present time, few of you are both old and American enough to have seen/remember the pre-debut station break promo commercial where the announcer patter casually dropped in "Never to show him love, lest the ancient spell be broken" in the middle, and then that was never on the show.
Whether that was just network PR flack bumper invention, or a line got cut from the finished show - hey, this I deem an excellent addition. Wonder Woman, you know, had no father until sometime in the last ten years in the comics; traditionally, Hippolyta had made a clay statue of a roughly year-old toddler girl, and the gods smiled on it and brought it to life. Never mentioned on TV, but she's a golem, Uno.
And the commercial's line slides right into her premise nicely, and slaps down the eternal problem of her unused ladyparts and she-ought-to-be-gay, to put in there that the magic that animates her and empowers her requires virginity (and since she's not actually human, depending on how strong the magic that made her was, arguable, she likely has sex urges rather muted -not absent- as part of the spell that made her live...)
-And back to the immortal business -golem and magic handwaves aside- the second season of the show, contemporary-set CBS version, had Steve Trevor's look-alike son, Steve, quickly end up unconscious on a floor on Paradise Island in 1980; atop the stairs appears Dianna, in an amazon nightgown -looking as hot as she ever looked, BTW, in that nightgown- quietly says "Steve!" in surprise -nobody said immortal, but they didn't have to; she's magic- and off into the inferior CBS seasons, seamlessly transitioned to the present, they went. -Ignoring the sqickey subtext of that setup completely; her and the real Steve had never done more than smilingly-admire each other, after all...
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...a well-reasoned argument that Kaiser Bill was no Hitler...
It's largely a myth.
Hitler, his lieutenants, the different ideologies he melted, his supports...didn't appear from nowhere in 1933, they were there in 1918 at the end of WWI, in 1914 before the war and even before in the 19th century.
The only thing making Hitler special are extermination camps and squads killing millions on industrial scale with industrial organization. Without that, he would just be another conqueror/dictator/warlord taking quietly place besides the such of Napoleon, Caesar, Gengis Khan and some others.
But:
- the German superiority feeling and the urge to rule Europe was at the heart of the pangermanist movement pushing Germany to war. That's why they supported the most extreme Austrian claims against Serbia after Sarajevo, starting the chain of alliances that brought WWI. Thus they have a major responsibility.
- Germany, despising international laws, broke the neutrality of Belgium (calling it "a sheet of paper"), qualifying thus for an agression war. A stupid act which probably cost them the war, being the reason for GB and its dominions to enter the fight
- German occupation of Belgium and Northern France from 1914 to 1918 was extremely brutal, even moreso than in WWII. Civilians were left dying by poverty and hunger.
- Turkish armies were under the direct command of German officers, beginning with General Lyman von Sanders at the top. They couldn't have committed the Armenian genocide without them at the very least watching the other side and silencing the reports to other countries, and probably helping with logistics.
- Germany sunk neutral and civilian boats with its submarines to disrupt allied commerce. Again, a stupidity which pushed the US into the war.
- Having the best scientists and the most powerful industry in the world, Germany started chemical warfare on a massive scale on the Western front. An atrocity difficult to apprehend today.
So: no, the Kaiser was no Hitler...because he didn't kill Jews.
In every other domain, he was merely his predecessor.
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All the Burton movies you mention, save Big Fish which I haven't seen, are spider-web cute examples. It's a metaphor.
Then I strongly disagree with you that he needs to stay in that area to be his best. He's just as likely to make a clunker within that realm as any other. And Big Fish and Big Eyes are examples of good, if not great, movies more anchored in reality.
Frankly, the best thing about a Burton movie is your virtually guaranteed Danny Elfman does the music.
And a penchant for practical effects over cgi.
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Uuuh - the spiderweb (pseudo-creepy) stuff also almost invariably features the Depp, who I deem a genuinely good actor, and I'm meh on Elfman, but liked all those movies a LOT considering none of it's to do with my preferred fantasy life...
...a well-reasoned argument that Kaiser Bill was no Hitler...
It's largely a myth.
Hitler, his lieutenants, the different ideologies he melted, his supports...didn't appear from nowhere in 1933, they were there in 1918 at the end of WWI, in 1914 before the war and even before in the 19th century.
The only thing making Hitler special are extermination camps and squads killing millions on industrial scale with industrial organization. Without that, he would just be another conqueror/dictator/warlord taking quietly place besides the such of Napoleon, Caesar, Gengis Khan and some others.
But:
- the German superiority feeling and the urge to rule Europe was at the heart of the pangermanist movement pushing Germany to war. That's why they supported the most extreme Austrian claims against Serbia after Sarajevo, starting the chain of alliances that brought WWI. Thus they have a major responsibility.
- Germany, despising international laws, broke the neutrality of Belgium (calling it "a sheet of paper"), qualifying thus for an agression war. A stupid act which probably cost them the war, being the reason for GB and its dominions to enter the fight
- German occupation of Belgium and Northern France from 1914 to 1918 was extremely brutal, even moreso than in WWII. Civilians were left dying by poverty and hunger.
- Turkish armies were under the direct command of German officers, beginning with General Lyman von Sanders at the top. They couldn't have committed the Armenian genocide without them at the very least watching the other side and silencing the reports to other countries, and probably helping with logistics.
- Germany sunk neutral and civilian boats with its submarines to disrupt allied commerce. Again, a stupidity which pushed the US into the war.
- Having the best scientists and the most powerful industry in the world, Germany started chemical warfare on a massive scale on the Western front. An atrocity difficult to apprehend today.
So: no, the Kaiser was no Hitler...because he didn't kill Jews.
In every other domain, he was merely his predecessor.
Sir, I read an excellent biography of Hitler in college -for fun; he's interesting- covering his life from about a month after Armistice while he was still a corporal in the army of Bavaria, (and his CO sent him to monitor a small political party mostly to keep him busy) and follows him up to about the Munich Beerhall Putsch and contextualized the place and time in depth.
Reading about early Weimar Germany made ME want to conquer France and kill a lot of them. ;nod
I know what Hitler was -a strange quiet guy, nerdy and more than a little bright but no genius, angry about politics with an infectious passion, wrapped a little too tight for his own or anyone else's good, but by no means crazy, at least early on. And I know what Germany was at the time -and the actual communist revolutions with actual Jewish leaders, that unfortunately set much bullcrap hate off/fed mainstream- and that Hitler was a symptom and eventually a focus, but not originally the disease.
WWI, again, was a moral Chinatown - all sides stupid, crazy-aggressive, guilty of greed and hate in statecraft - and Germany was merely the party that went first; it had to, with France and Russia in anti-German alliance and already mobilized. So Germany was arguably the wrongest (Bill absolutely had motives and agenda beyond self-defense -blank check to Austria-Hungary, after all- which was a mere timing issue) but hardly the hands-down badguy of Nazi Germany a generation later.
No. I fight on the hill that Bill was no Adolf. ;nod -Good points about Belgium and the Armenian genocide, though.
-This is thread-worthy if anyone thinks they have sufficient command of the facts and wants to discuss/debate...
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WWI, again, was a moral Chinatown - all sides stupid, crazy-aggressive, guilty of greed and hate in statecraft -
And the WW movie USES THAT.
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GOOD.
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WELL. That's new.
Woman in a blue wig and a bunny suit -re: Bulma in the first season of Dragon Ball a couple episodes, so somebody actually knew the stuff, at least to correctly bill it as Dragon Ball- on a pr0n site. All that's new about that, mind, is live action. Not going to actually watch; actress is a tad heavy.
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... the Woman (ultra-violence-is-for-men-I've-got-a-better-way) Paradigm thing ...
Isn't it a very modern and political view of Wonder Woman?
Of the 4 main heroes created before or around WWII that I know: Captain America, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, the woman doesn't stand out as more loving or pacific. All four are especially characterized by their trait of not killing enemies. There was an uproar when fans saw Superman killing Zod in Man of Steel; a contrario some people were cheering for Batman killing gangsters in Batman vs Superman but it shows how out of character that was too.
To be fair, there aren't many super-heroes who really kill their enemies: Spiderman, Fnatastic Four, even Iron Man the most anticommunist hero or Daredevil the vigilante don't indulge into cold-blood killing or even hot. Enemies die by accident or disintegrated by their own devices...
Until recently of course with the famous turn around with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns by 1985-87. Then suddenly semi-outlaws like Wolverine and the Punisher who were making some cameos got their own series where they could leave a trail of blood behind them...
But usually super-heroes don't kill also because 1-comics were at first for kids and 2-authors didn't want to re-invent super-villains all the time so the bad guys were put in jail and escaped and put in jail and escaped and... (Seriously, in real life, how much times can the Joker escape and kill civilians by terror before someone decide it's just good policy to terminate him while he's sleeping in jail?)
So no: in comics, ultra-violence is unisexual.
I added emphasis to that first line.
No, actually.
-Also yes, because of course. -But it's actual original intent. So, see -and I don't know all this 100% cetain, so feel free to google it and correct me- DC/National had a big hit with Superman, a big hit with Batman, getting literally millions of boy's money monthly - I surmise that they wondered how they could skin more little girls, too. So they recruited Dr. William Marston (Moulton was a pen name), a shrink famous for work on lie detector stuff, and, I believe, had written a lot of popular science articles on child psychology stuff or something like that. Looked like a natural for prestigious creative contributions they could point at and claim Teh Expert Said Good For Kids, if only they could get him...
Well - no idea if he needed the money, but it happened that Marston was a radical feminist -by the standards of 1940, not so much now- (who had an interesting personal life, shacked up with his wife and their girlfriend.) Olive Byrne (Yes Byrne - no relation) was a tall, shapely, good-looking brunette, and the three of them were seriously into bondage, and Olive just wore bracelets all the time. I trust all that sounds familiar, a bit, because it certainly deeply informed the work.
(Not hard to find, all over the net, panels and covers from the original Marston/Peter [Yes; she was co-created and originally drawn by Harry Peter - the RL irony comedy never ends with WW] run that are HILARIOUS to modern sensibilities, knowing where all the coded-bondage imagery was coming from, and once you notice that one cover she's running at a sea monster with a telephone pole - that the monster looks like ladyparts, and sometimes a telephone pole isn't, metaphorically, a telephone sort of pole...)
Nossir, William Marston Moulton, totally believed, ahead of his time in 1940, that the feminine nature was better, more loving, and straight-up he was a true believer in Gurl-Powah-Yay. I absolutely do not read something unintended in when I say "the Woman (ultra-violence-is-for-men-I've-got-a-better-way) Paradigm thing".
She was, always, at her very genesis and roots, Intended as Woman, Paradigm (Neither simply to play to/attract girls, but by someone who believed the message) and the "ultra-violence-is-for-men-I've-got-a-better-way" was explicit, more explicit back then, nothing I've simply interpreted from my perch in the future of 2018.
---
-Saw Mylochka this morning (especially for those who remember years back my reporting of idle conversations we had about direction if we wrote Wonder Woman) and had to tell her about the magic golem origin that was grafted on long ago - and especially the "Never to show him love, lest the ancient spell be broken" idea...
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Appropose of only that I just saw this post of mine for the first time in eight years...
Vish can talk a lot more crap to/around me than he does. He's good people.
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;lol Wonder Woman penetrating Von Bach to death during Kingdom Come:
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1a/d4/30/1ad4305cc98dc6450573da252daa4c76--kingdom-come-wonder-woman.jpg)
;lol
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Symetrical to:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-b_zkDrWRVh4/Wf8jvb4BBMI/AAAAAAAA7fA/2KNHZBHtYV0whiRlgftelTCGGEEjSgbTgCLcBGAs/s1600/av48_16.jpg)
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The Master of the World wasn't nearly powerful enough to give MM a real fight -he was roughly Captain America-level- and it was a huge mistake for her to ditch the second Cockrum costume. I don't care about the sexual politics, aspect, or the current right-headed attempt to make her Paragon -thus the Captain and not-hot costume- the dark swimsuit WORKED.
Von Bach was strong enough that when WW'd fought him before w/ Superman's help, she was still out of breath for a minute afterwards - he musta been hella-fast, too, or no fight against either, let alone both.
Strong move to post panels we find on the nets, though - I'd heard about Ms. Marvel/Warbird/I-don't-think-she-was-using-Captain-yet killing the Master, but never seen it before. Art isn't too great...
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Warbird at the time. The Kang Dynasty arc was a grim one.
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So, this is where Vonbach took his pseudo and avatar?
I always thought it was some hommage to the singer and iconography of the Slovenian avant-gardiste band Laibach
(http://0377b75.netsolhost.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Laibach-Spectre-6-photo-by-Maya-Nightingale.jpg)
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I made and put the avatar on von, 'cause I caught the name. He is familiar with the series.
Bet it was Waid and Ross' homage to that dude. Slovenian is too much of a coincidence - von Bach talked German, but I'm told bad German, and was actually Yugoslavian...
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Symetrical to:
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-b_zkDrWRVh4/Wf8jvb4BBMI/AAAAAAAA7fA/2KNHZBHtYV0whiRlgftelTCGGEEjSgbTgCLcBGAs/s1600/av48_16.jpg)
ALSO? Cockrum design killing a Byrne design. Funny.
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GotM release has kept me busy all day -and I haven't linked a bunch of places on Facebook even yet- but I didn't get to Dragnball Super yesterday, and am watching as soon as I come back from the Kat Frend Project, Sunset Edition. Call it 20 minutes from now, done in under an hour. Episode right after wrapping a Major Arc ought to be comedy-heavy.
Cover me; I'm going in.
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...No dice. Now I learn that I reviewed a season ender in the OP. :(
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I made and put the avatar on von, 'cause I caught the name. He is familiar with the series.
Bet it was Waid and Ross' homage to that dude. Slovenian is too much of a coincidence - von Bach talked German, but I'm told bad German, and was actually Yugoslavian...
I figured "von Bach" a tribute to the panzer general ( or was it field marshal ?)
I'm obviously out of my depth here, I rarely had money for comic books. I was probably saving for electric train stuff. I took Wonder Woman as an incarnation of Athena. I recall seeing a vintage cover on the internet of her with a spear, around 2000. Is that more or less phallic than a spear?
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I said earlier that I deem a spear definitely more phallic than a sword, didn't I?
No, she was all Aphrodite, all the time, originally, w/o any of the naked funtime. That has moderated a lot over the years, and I understand she's currently a demigoddess daughter of Zeus is how she got born and where her powers mostly come from...
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I said earlier that I deem a spear definitely more phallic than a sword, didn't I?
No, she was all Aphrodite, all the time, originally, w/o any of the naked funtime. That has moderated a lot over the years, and I understand she's currently a demigoddess daughter of Zeus is how she got born and where her powers mostly come from...
I don't remember. I'm home now , catching up on stuff. Tomorrow is a major doctor appointment for my dad, which will probably determine the date of the next surgery. Then...we'll figure out the terms of my next return to PA.
Aphrodite... Fooled me. My second guess would have been Diana.
My thoughts aren't appearing on the page very faithfully. I think I'll sign off for the night. Good to see you again, Buncle. Hoping for a better tomorrow.
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Me too. I get it - too much to read all at once.
I think if you skim through the whole thread, when you have time, looking for Wonder Woman talk, many of your questions have already been answered...
Dianna wouldn't be bad. Or Vestia, even. Maybe.
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Hey Uno, back on Piccolo - easiest way to get him back in the first rank of power for good would be to merge him with someone like Lord Slug; then you could go back to playing with him being tempted by a bad nature, too...
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Better way to buff him?
I figure King Piccolo being able to kill Shenlong the Eternal Dragon with a single shot was nothing to do with powerlevel, but because he was half Shenlong's creator. His nameless good half -Kami being a title, not a name- was God, and I figure there was a symmetry in the powers of office that Kami assumed that made King Piccolo an actual demon king. I think KP is more interesting that way, than merely amnesiac split Namekian.
Piccolo ought to have an affinity for magic, in other words, maybe not actually doing it, but as a wellspring of power (and also other story possibilities, me missing the fantasy tone of Dragon Ball in all the later series)...
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I'm so far removed from where the series has gone, I can't even comment.
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Oh - this isn't GT or Super stuff. Even if you never watched Dragon Ball plain, with Piccolo Jr.'s origin, this is good stuff - he's the Son Of The Devil, also God --- and also Nail. Lots could be done with who Nail was, you know, without even getting away from the assumption that he was mostly just a Hero.
Do you realize that he could have not been really reformed until he merged with Nail?
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...he's the Son Of The Devil...
That's cool!
But is it as cool as:
(http://www.thenewchurchofsatan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/marvel_spotlight_13.jpg)
I've never read it but now that I see this, I definetly should.
This cover with only the hand of Satan to be seen could have been an inspiration for another devil-inspired work:
(http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/prince-of-darkness.png)
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What’s the latter there?
(Groan worthy son design imo)
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What’s the latter there?
Prince of Darkness.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91zDzGy3maL._SX342_.jpg)
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Is that supposed to be Hector Alezondo on the poster?
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Daimon Helstrom, The Son of Satan? I never read his short-lived early 70s Marvel series, but gather it wasn't very good - though Uno might have liked it a little for obvious reasons, and I daresay I might like it a lot if it was reasonably competent, because it's a story about a man with a bad nature trying to be good anyway - and I'm an absolute sucker for redemption narratives, having tried to live one since the mid 90s IRL.
He was kinda-sorta a major player in the Defenders, sometimes even the quite-adequate magic guy when Dr. Strange wasn't there - but somehow, I sense, mostly bowdlerized in that book, not all that evil inside - though he talked of little else, he was too in control of his 'Darksoul', ultimately...
There was a short-but-pretty-good -I hear- solo series in the mid-90s, an early Warren Ellis comic that was so desperately-trying-to-be-Vertigo that I understand it succeed, if only it had BEEN a DC Vertigo book and/or lasted long enough to find its audience... Definitely an Uno comic, if he likes the Vertigo style...
-I don't think anything significant has been done with him in over 20 years, or I'd have heard - my regular nets patrol includes some comics sites, and I somewhat keep up that way. I could supply some link to summaries w/ pics of that last series if anyone's curious...
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Is that supposed to be Hector Alezondo on the poster?
Donald Pleasance
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The Son of Satan is emblematic of the 70s when Marvel had some strange horror series.
When I started reading Marvel Comics, we had 2 editors here:
- one would be the most popular with normal-size comics in color but I learned later they heavily censored violence (Rom the space knight, Daredevil by Frank Miller, mutants by Bill Sienkewicz, The Eternals by Kirby, ...).
- another would be in small format print in black & white. They were the same who edited ghost and fantastic stories, so they had all kind of creepy comics and one of them was Ghost Rider.
I remember to this day an episode where GR arrives in a small town where a satanic powerful child turned everyone into crawling beasts, his mother into a zombie of sort and he used her to blackmail his father. Just horrible!!
Of course there was also Dracula ???
Most of these old works I know by looking at shelves when I go to Paris: they have a big comic-shop with lots of integrals, essentials, omnibus and the likes.
But I wonder if the palm doesn't go to DC's The War that Time forgot. Yeah, US GIs at war against dinosaurs or something like that!
GEEEZ! I just launched a search in Google Images and.... ::) it seems there were a ton of these. Star-Spangled Stories, Weird War and such...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4irVuZamOhA/TJuIzpLgICI/AAAAAAAADcs/uZVxMDJymRQ/s400/The+War+That+Time+Forgot+006.jpg)
And there are even new ones from the years 2000s.
I guess they have that same appeal as tyrannosaurs in F-14s!
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This one is probably a must-read: GIs, nazis, Medusa... ;lol
(http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/weird-war-tales/107-1.jpg)
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;b; to the last two posts, Vish.
Pleasance ;nod -Alezondo is close - the art has the look of the likenesses not wanting to come out, anyway.
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I made and put the avatar on von, 'cause I caught the name. He is familiar with the series.
Bet it was Waid and Ross' homage to that dude. Slovenian is too much of a coincidence - von Bach talked German, but I'm told bad German, and was actually Yugoslavian...
I had to check and...yeah, it was obvious!
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Von_Bach_(Earth-22) (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Von_Bach_(Earth-22))
"Von Bach was a Yugoslavian would-be dictator who was fought and defeated by Superman and Wonder Woman."
"Von Bach is modeled after Milan Fras, the singer of the Slovenian experimental music group Laibach."
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Kingdom Come told a very vivid, visceral story about right and wrong and a world, and the people in it, gone sour -the good guys too- and an apocalyptic struggle ending in redemption. And one of the most impressive things about it is the depth. You can read and read and look and look at that series many times for a long time without finding everything.
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Watchmen by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons.
Did anyone not spot that the "End is Nigh" guy was Rorschach the very first time he appeared? Am I the only one who spotted that Ozymandias was the guy behind everything early on?
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The Infinity Concerto by Greg Bear.
-So far, this seems very good, notwithstanding a title that sounds like a Marvel Comics crossover event about Thanos taking up classical music.
I hope Vishniac sees that joke. I remember when Jim Starlin used to write comics that weren't stupid.
A good read. Now I gotta track down the rest of the story in Serpent Mage.
...
I read the collection of the first six issues of Astro City by Kurt Busiek and Brent Anderson last night. It was good, but I dunno, I'm not sure it deserves as high a reputation as it has in comics circles.
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Quoting oneself is something like...what would be the English metaphor...blowing his own horn? :P
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/61/3f/d6/613fd6da6e35821944753b8fe0fa25cc.jpg)
That's the speciality of Keith Cowing, that self-important insignificantus who loves to post articles quoting him...
I see the objective here though.
And I can say we are at T-9 : Thanos minus 9! Nine days until Thanos on big screen.
We'll see whether it was worth the wait and the hype. Black Panther and the Russo Brothers give me some hope about it.
On Friday, I have my last oppoortunity to let a Marvel fan friend read the Thanos Quest, Infinity Gauntlet and the Infinity story with the Black order so he can prepare. To be fair, I shall add the Marvel 2-in-1 where Thanos faced the Avengers, Spiderman and the Thing, bested them all, before Adam Warlock resurrects to stone him to Death! A masterpiece. 8)
Better for him to pay the drinks Friday evening to thank me!
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I'm sure the second coming of Starlin and Thanos to Marvel made a LOT of money - but all that newer crap -Infinity anything; Thanos Quest wasn't terrible- you name was indeed crap. I was expecting Classic Adam Warlock-level quality, when Secret Wars was better-written, if not nearly as prettily-drawn...
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What you're calling 'newer' is apparently what came during the 90s. :D
Better for you not to touch the Thanos appearances of these last 10 years: most are really poor.
It depends on the writer. There are still interesting things to do with him.
When I was 5, the first Marvel episode my mother bought me was the one with Captain Marvel battling the Thing and the last image...Thanos appears with the Super-Skrull and a mystery figure (who'll reveal as Death later); I still have it.
It took me 22 years to buy the following episodes and finally know the Cosmic Cube saga.
Warlock classic I had to wait until I could find them.
As only a few series were published in French, we knew of some heroes only when they interacted in other heroes'series: Warlock, Dr Strange, Hulk, Miss Marvel...
It's only 3 years ago that I bought the Essential Adam Warlock. Well, it was a strange read for sure: like to have some Jesus-Christ wannabe wandering among hippies in another Earth Woodstock era. :o No wonder he became the Magus later!
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I've got nothing against Thanos, blatant Darkseid ripoff that he is - just, Infinity Gauntlet was nothing but a paycheck comic, a formulaic by-the-numbers big annual crossover event designed to sell well -nothing like Starlin trying to do good work- and not making even a good example of that, if you take away Perez and Lim drawing it real pretty. Ptooeey! I spit upon it from a height!
---
I actually come here with a funny inspiration; I'm watching YouTube videos re-capping the in-progress Watchmen sequel Doomsday Clock -which for a wonder, appears to be very good [and the Comedian is somehow alive]- and the d00d narrating keeps pronouncing Rorschach's real name as "Walter Korvaks".
Well. Imagine that moment when Rorschach pulls off the mask near the end of issue 12 and shouts "DO IT!" --- and then the godlike cosmic power of Korvac -no doubt a cousin or something- enters him, and Dr. Manhattan can't do it...
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Incidentally? I found that there's YouTube accounts that scroll through entire comics, and while trying to track down issue 2 of Doomsday Clock -new characters Mime and Marionette are full of Win and Charisma, for all that fanboy Johns couldn't resist giving them either superpowers or magic tech weapons, unclear which- and have read a recent issue of Thor, in which they appear to be putting Jane Foster on a bus/killing her off, and was pretty good - and a couple issues of Runaways, a team I'd been hearing about online for a decade but never met --- and it's full of Win and Charisma, even though I've seen little superpowers and not a single fight/adventure yet. I'm sold anyway.
-
-And now I've discovered Read Comics Online -which can't be legit- and have been reading comic books most of the day.
It was bad writing to let half of Age of Ultron meander off into being about other stuff - but the other stuff was actually more interesting. I was ready to give it a thumbs-down before the time travel hijinks started, and teaming Wolverine with the Invisible Woman is a lot like paring him with a little girl, in practice...
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make sure your anti-virus stuff is up to date
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My only foray into DBZ was that when I lived in New Orleans I was invited to play in a group that played the Dragon Ball Z pencil and paper RPG.
I do not recall much about it other than it required rolling hundreds of 6 sided dice for various things and you could have hundreds of actions. To save steps, you would multiply dice. For instance, 1000d6 could be 10d6 times 100 so you are only rolling 10 dice.
The guy that ran it was a DBZ fanatic. His game room was a room in a shotgun with each wall covered with DBZ action figures still in the box. Must have been hundreds of dollars worth of plastic crap.
I did not enjoy the game that much. I had trouble with the mechanics and the system seemed to be a bit more complex than I thought necessary coming from d20 systems like Dungeons and Dragons. I also think the copious amounts of reefer had something to do with my ability to learn the system as you would be Cheech and Chong level of stoned just walking in the room.Much less imbibing with them since the reefer was supplied by the host to keep people coming to his game.
What got me about the DBZ stuff was just the ridiculous power levels and insane numbers thrown out. It did not seem to have any sort of bounded accuracy or real struggle or consequences.It was that the main character gets beat up, finds some "hidden" power, and becomes more god like. Kind of like the old WCW/WWF pro wresling plotlines where Hulk Hogan is getting destroyed to the point of needing a stretcher then starts twitching a bit then begins wailing on his opponent.
Way too derivative.
Though, I can see the "mystical" appeal. The ramifications of such power levels and what it means. But somehow I missed that due to the dumb dialogue and character development typical to these kinds of animation.
One Piece does this tons better.
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(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=20894.0;attach=20345;image)
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In regards to the March conversation, Thor: Ragnarok is out on Netflix (US) for anyone who might be interested.
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Basically posting doubting anyone here will care/have kept up with the comics, but wanting to throw it out in public in case I'm proved right later...
The current X-Men relaunch of the last eight months or so? From people like Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister having seats on the high council with the good guys and it lasted a whole day, on down to Wolverine having a room adjoining Marvel Girl's -Jean's currently alive and sporting the old green miniskirt look- opposite Cyclops and they don't wake everyone in the house up at night trying to kill each other --- Something's Got To Be Going On.
I think it's probably Professor X and his always-on cerebro helmet mind-controlling all the telepaths to mind-control all the rest of the mutants just enough to get them going along with the entire, vast, pile of improbable goings-along.
Further, I think it's really Moira McTaggert, having somehow taken over Xavier's mind in his latest resurrection. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and this probably ain't as bad as the timeline she spent trying working with Apocalypse...
-If I've piqued anyone's curiosity, I could supply links to the background reading to make sense of what I just said...
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Given the current climate, I may need some reading material sooner rather than later.
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I'll get those links for you in just a bit. I'll be interested in your reaction.
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As E_T said when I discovered this site, have you antivirus stuff up to date. It's a sketchy site with many intrusive ads. It's also carrying a lot of comic material in a readable format.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/House-of-X-Powers-of-X/TPB-Part-1?id=165194
The stuff about Moira will blow your mind - all of it will, but it's very good, taken in isolation...
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...I reread that double miniseries since, and the thing with Mystique wanting Destiny back is going to blow up ugly, and probably soon...
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I finally just caught up with Wednesday's comics -it's been a distracting week- and I just scrolled past quite a pile of tie-ins for the King In Black event. Hey Marvel; what could I pay you to drop Venom, symbiotes, and anything derivative of that, forever and ever? Same question for mass-murderer and fascist icon The Punisher.
WAY more serious about that latter - it's time and decades past time to Do The Right Thing.
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I finally read Planet Hulk and World War Hulk, over dunno; summer. I think Thor: Ragnarok wasn't even a worthy nod to any of that. Not that I loved those stories all that much, but they weren't about arena fighting. Planet Hulk had gladiatorial combat, is all - most of the fighting was apocalyptic and all over Sakkar. Thumbs down to that aspect of the movie, and it sucked the air/time out of the parts that worked better and the movie was actually about.
It's the Revenge of the Jedi problem; a third of the movie, the least quality third of a bad movie, was peed away on Tatooine and belching monsters for the kiddies. Five-ten minutes to grab-and-thaw Han, for far better, then off to Endor and the Ewoks for the kiddies, and more oxygen to the Death Star II stuff the whole movie was about and maybe a director w/ any talent telling Hamil how to read the lines. He was dire in that. "I'm here, father." Ugh. Turd writing unpolished in the acting. Fight me.
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I honestly think ragnarok was trying to build a hulk storyline that got pissed away in the avengers films. It’s not a nod to planet hulk as that’s way too ludicrous for the mcu. But Hulk starts to doubt himself there and banner/hulk are beginning to lose control. (Hulk doubt is not a part of the comic)
This is reinforced at the beginning of infinity war with hulk getting his ass kicked and then refusing to even come out.
But this whole setup is completely hand waived in end game
RTJ, what do you cut on Tattooine? You need Leia in bounty hunter kicking ass, and frankly her murdering the slug as well. You need Luke showing his mastery of the force and mechanical hand.
You can argue about the droid scene, but as it’s the setup to smuggle the lightsaber in so im not even sure it can be scrapped.
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[poop]. RotJ probably had to do something with the Fett, all that part actually accomplished besides fishing Han out of the carbonite. It was a side adventure. How about making the actual story moar awesome with the extra time? How about making it not suck at least?
I cut the entire sequence, and put in something five minutes long that fishes out Han so he can go play w/ teddies on Endor. Maybe they just buy him back from Bobba in some random-butt SW dump. It needs nothing else, and some of the 'cool' moments could somehow be sneaked into the less-suck actual plot part...
Okay, okay. I did just throw away Slave Leia, and that's not okay. How do we Slave Leia on Endor at a teddy bear picnic?
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Ah.
Revenge of the Jedi opening; there's yellow words scrolling up/back/away over a starfield, music by J. Williams. Probably identical to original.
-Fade in-
Luke, Lando and Chewbacca are in some sort of ferocious battle in a cramped service corridor -two or three minute action scene- Luke does something WAY cool w/ Force, wining, pauses a second looking into the air, and shouts "Han's THIS way!" They run.
-cut to-
Leia, Slave Leia, lying all hot on her side on the edge of the stage in a dive -a Twilek dancing behind, alien band, dirt, rust- in a random-buttocks space station facing Bobba Fett seated at barside - in an inversion of the obvious strip-club set-up, SHE's handing HIM credits, saying "So we've got a deal?"
-cut to-
Leia, still Slave, Luke Lando and Chewie (quite disheveled from fight) are in a big hangar deck rolling CarboHan furiously up the ramp of the Falcon. Chewie snarls, Lando shouts at Leia "You could have TOLD us what you were really doing!" (The Fett may be in the background boarding Slave1 or Jetpack flying or something. Like I a give a darn about Fett. Something, maybe - try to make it something kewl.)
-cut to-
Cockpit. Not sure who's piloting, but a tired-looking and slightly damp Han comes in behind the others, maybe with Leia, who may be wearing clothes now, he saying, all Han-disgusted, "Who let YOU fly my ship?"
-fade-
-Off to the Teddybear picnic or Rebel Endor mission setup - I forget the original transition.
Runtime, 5 minutes, most of it the fast-paced way-cool opening battle. Possibly more business in the bar scene to protract the Slave Leia and Fett for the Fett-heads. Runtime 6, then.
---
Oh, I love how Fett-heads rolls off the tongue. Didn't intend that.
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-And MY way leaves Fett uneaten, if you're sad enough to care.
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-And PLEASE, not. a. second. of the time freed up added to screen-time for teddy bears.
The heart of the movie still needs a complete overhaul, and why not put all that largess of extra time into --- as long as I'm being imaginary, better Hamil performance/Luke writing, and maybe more detail/subplots to his surrender and captivity would take the sting out of the Big Bad being a constipated 80 year-old man with a bad complexation. I never felt the danger; I was surprised Vader even noticed the lightning -spoiler alert- and the Vader Redemption was tres' [poopy].
He still had the blood of Alderan and many empire officers casually murdered on his hands, and many Jedi (and what-not more people, clearly) murdered off-stage -and the younglings, for that matter, we know now- it was unearned, that redemption, and he MERELY killed a co-conspirator, and nothing to do with justice/doing the right thing. Force-Hell is still not hot enough for. Darth. Vader.
So, over a half-hour+ or something freed up to come up with ANYthing that sets up the 'redemption' and somehow makes it WORK. Hey, he expresses out-loud doubts about ALL the killing they've done/do much earlier; add a death scene line about remorse - that's a huge improvement, just that much. ;nod
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So yeah, add an establishing shot a few seconds zooming on the space station to the opening, maybe also a starscape wall-window in the dive - and more Vader, not Luke, to the Death Star II plot.
I'm not married to the space station - just tickles my fancy, and implies they caught up to Fett in time.
Note that my opening calls-back to the trash compactor room, juxtaposes a frenetic action sequence in nasty surroundings w/ Slave Leia in relative luxury being smart instead of hard (and NOT 'slave' - she obviously CHOSE to show off to fit in the room and now has agency) -which is what she's really good for in the group, smart, allegedly manages stuff- works in a line for all the speaking leads -w/ gags- and takes care of EVERYthing the [poop] it replaces needed to do to advance the plot. -Fanservice and everything. It's at least a complete workable skeleton.
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-And MY way leaves Fett uneaten, if you're sad enough to care.
But... its tradition that the Fett's get something done to their head!
I mean, even the prelogy got that right when Kenobi beheaded him.
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That was his dad.
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That was his dad.
They're clones!
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You a clone.
;notes; Send in the clooones ;notes;
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What was that again of copies and a lady named Rhonda you mentioned lately? ;cute
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She's the daughter of my father's baby sister - 1st cousin. Her looks didn't hold out through her 30s.
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I probably asked before, but does your mother has grandchildren besides Buster?
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No, alas, she does not. I adore Buster w/o let of hindrance - but I'd go in a second for a lesser child who made appearances like she loved me back, for a choice. Why are we talking about this in this thread? Passing-out sleepy and going to bed.
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Why is Star Wars talk getting such paltry love?
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Its a [Jedi] trap!
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Coooould be. ;nod
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I left out the droids. Just realized.
Need business for them in the opening - maybe with Leia in the bar, but Threepio needs at least one line. Probably in the hangar scene, after Lando; "Miss Organia was merely trying to wisely negotiate-" "SHUT UP!" the humans all shout, avec another wookie howl.
-Realized while copy/pasting my observations on RotJ to Buster, a real SW fan. She, too, loves how "Fett-head" rollls off the tongue...
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Read the Scott Pilgrim series (1-6 )
Did anyone else secretly wish that Kim Pine would have married her Korean boyfriend so that she would become "Kim Kim" ?
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So....
MCU series form.
WandaVision: I kinda liked the gimmick of the TV show. Understood all those references...and maneuvers into a typical MCU CGI slug fest worthy of an MCU movie. A little rough in patches. Slow in others. The TV show gimmick is hit and miss with some people. But good.
Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Opens with a great CGI fight scene worthy of a Marvel Movie....and becomes a grind through the middle. I kinda liked John Walker, but he also felt VERY underdeveloped/rushed. As in instead of focusing on Sam wandering about, a couple episodes on John would have actually benefited the series. And outside that first scene, the fights felt fairly average.
Loki: Gorgeous set at the TVA. Kinda dig the aesthetic in that way. Owen Wilson vs Loki could have used a lot more time and is IMO the best part of this series. I still have 2 episodes to go, but the fight choreography has been frankly sub par and the CGI locales are showing their lack of budget/care compared to the MCU at large. An entire episode was spent on a planet about to be destroyed and it is down right bad by today's standards. Like you could have just put that entire episode on the holodeck in TNG and replaced Loki with Q and it would have fit.
Bottom line: I think the cramped production schedule is showing it's cracks a bit. Netflix showed you can take some low budget friendly characters out of the MCU and make good grounded series, but Disney trying to do it with the more scifi oriented characters isn't coming off so great. Mandalorian WORKED because of how grounded the series was. Disney needs to either invest the money/time to polish these big CGI scenes or keep things more grounded and hire some damn directors/writers to polish the slow downs for hells sake.
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...The interesting thing about John Walker in the comics was, he was a straight-up sleazy 'Publican jerk who criticized Cap as lame and old-fashioned - until he was hired as the new Cap and tried very hard to live up to the legacy. He failed often, people got killed, he was still a 'Publican jerk and a failure as Cap --- but he was an HONEST jerk now, and eventually grew into a decent superhero in his post-Cap career as USAgent.
I'm a sucker for redemption narratives...
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And they TRIED to capture the him trying to live up to it and failing bit...but just didn't have enough time with the character as the show focused on Falcon instead. He deserved his own episode or two, dare I even say series, rather than being a secondary character in a side story to the main arch on this series.
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(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/331248904_1370524163698566_1388570252403629903_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=A0dhp0649LYAX8-xic8&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=00_AfA9vhucSUuZzx-xnP042s6RobrUOC88lOLUU7fRq_55FA&oe=63F2467F)
In the name of the Moon I will punish you, Uno! Embiggens.
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(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/331132810_586908906638536_7063705245270464436_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=4KGjv-XfzpIAX9Qzaql&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=00_AfC5kZ0XEgJTTXHND1eaUd6tLBA3SV5sM_Eyb0OL6AV4Kw&oe=63F25650)
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"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress!" -How in God's name did Steve "Listen to the Mockingbird!" Englehart never think of that when he had Moon Knight in the West Coast Avengers?
It's so cheesy, I now pronounce that Arcade's Moonbot said it in a Wisconsin accent.
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The hell is going on?
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Random pages Facebook offered me -and I knew you'd be trolled- if you know Arcade(sucks), you know as much as I do. Probably a bot, maybe mind-control.
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I'm pretty sure it's established attempting mind control goes really really bad for the one entering Marc's mind. I didn't see the panel on the other page at first and thought they were retconning him with cheesy lines, but that don't seem to be the case cause the one guy is right, that DON'T sound like MK.
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Ya think?
Well, Arcade never actually wins, and I have a theory about where the story's going...
But a Moon Knight killbot is way more in Arcade's typical line than brainwashing, though Murderworld is not a bad setting for the latter...
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(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/332473386_718843023107602_3203205813858580214_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_s640x640&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=LNFfggTsdvgAX8deXgV&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=00_AfBnQWOT2PUJB_6lzbCFDnThs-hmXv9qp-qnozSAyU9fag&oe=63FFBC1A)
I find it interesting that, although Burton doesn't hate the 1st Batman and I did, his criticisms of it are my own. -Plus, the rubber batsuits they've used ever since are just horrible.
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Hey Uno - did you see middle of last year, I think it was, when Konshu did a major powerup and Moon Knight beat up all the Avengers over two issues of their book?
I'm pretty sure you'd hate the heck out of it, and not sure why I only just now thought of mentioning it...
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Just another in the long line of MK not being understood. Uru is moon rock indeed.
You really can’t trust him to be consistent from one iteration to the next. I do hope we see a continuation of the tv series but I’m not terribly hopeful.
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Ho, you've actually kept up!
I'd submit that Konshu shenanigans and related unstable powerups are one of those Moon Knight tropes by now - am I wrong to assume it's happened a few times outside Avengers books?
I bet he's beaten up Moonstone a few times, too, and she ain't no joke. -Hey, she's a criminal psychiatrist whose signature piece is a good [profoundly mess with mind; Uno] - why doesn't he have to -gone buck wild- beat her up and sleep with her and eat her moonstone every other year in the Mighty Marvel Hacky Style?
(-I did try to find a way to phrase that less dirty-sounding, and failed.)
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(https://64.media.tumblr.com/a8ff8c5015be44af8f4901ad05ce002c/tumblr_nkuandtFQj1rvm5qqo1_1280.jpg)(https://64.media.tumblr.com/4f666dc756aa5d6f463365e2fd31835c/tumblr_nkuandtFQj1rvm5qqo2_1280.jpg)
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^That would probably be in Thunderbolts in their Suicide Squad ripoff incarnation - which I MUST have seen, but do not recall.^
You'll like this, the inside cover page of something about 11 years ago:
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-x5xy8pxEpTo/VnkBxWZJKtI/AAAAAAAAB48/mbk5mSMShUM/s0-Ic42/RCO002.jpg)
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I'd submit that Konshu shenanigans and related unstable powerups are one of those Moon Knight tropes by now - am I wrong to assume it's happened a few times outside Avengers books?
Lets see, off top of my head, I've seen him become essentially another Iron Man/suit powered hero.
Legitimately MAGIC powered
Lycanthrope yes/no/maybe
Batman gadget for any occasion to hell and back
- and all that was before Khonshu really became a thing on his own. I mean Khonshu was BACKGROUND tidbit for a good long chunk of MK's history.
NONE of that has anything to do with what makes MK good though.
The two things that make good MK stories IMO is so much less about the powers, and so much more about leaning into his insanity and the people around him, the network he's formed, much akin to his original inspiration The Shadow.
Marlene
Frenchie (by extension Rob, though I think that's a silly cop out)
Crawley
Gena and her boys
Flint
Scarlet
Etc.
Gotta have those tidbits in place and keep it as much personal as it is about insert great evil here. So, take MK stealing the Avengers powers just cause Khonshu said so. That just don't work. You have Mephisto torturing Marlene and Frenchie, but no one believes/will help Marc because Mephisto is all locked up and it must just be in his head again so MK goes hell bent on saving them by any means necessary and that arc fits a WHOLE LOT MORE. We can even have Khonshu more interested in keeping his newfound status than helping MK out so the phoenix force deal fits.
Kinda similar to how Batman becomes increasingly boring in most media due to the lack of understanding or capability to pull off a successful Robin. Batman stories NEED Robin to stay grounded and really SHOULDN'T be in the Justice League level stories IMO. Just as MK should remain grounded and not shoehorned into Avengers level stories just because he's got a series that needs hype or did good thus he's in the national conversation. Keep it smaller and somehow personal to him if you need him somewhere bigger. Avengers, Fantastic 4, Xmen, they handle big timey stuff. Girl getting raped at night, MK is all over it.
Sorry, quoting foul up - haven't edited anything.
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The Punisher (ugh) has had some similar problems with way off-model stuff being done with him - maybe not nearly as much, though. But FrankenCastle? Something Angel? Have they even bothered to fish him out of the Cosmic Ghost Rider stuff yet?
Fer goshsakes, Frank playing a Ghost Rider as Deadpool? Really?
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IMO the comics have gone really weird since the Disney acquisition. And a lot of it was in direct response to purposely not supporting IPs Disney didn't have movie rights to.
I mean one of the first things was 'no more mutants"...right after a failed negotiation for movie rights... At the time Xmen was a HUGE portion of the comic business. You had to fill that void with something.
The recent rise of ghost rider of all being a great example since it sure coincided with that TV series leaning HEAVILY into Ghost Rider.
I'm curious if the new focus on quality over quantity mission statement for Disney/MCU will impact the comics as well. It feels the comic arm has more and more become a means to hype the other properties. Maybe it can get back to just telling stories the writers want to across any of the IPs.
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I think if I was calling shots at Marvel Comics, I'd feel forced to urge the talent to be at least superficially resembling the movies where applicable - and I say that as a nets nerd who deeply resents showbidness disrespecting the source material.
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his original inspiration The Shadow.
Excuse me while I, Moonknight, the Shroud and Nighthawk all laugh at you...
-Daredevil was too busy.
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If you want me to go dig into storage and scan the Q&As out of the old editions...It would take a good while.
The original Villain version just kinda happened. "We need werewolf by night costumed villain." Insert moon. Insert silver weapons. Insert white costume to contrast the colorful panels. Merc just in it for the money because Moench hated the committee as villains.
Once it got thrown to production, they went back to The Shadow to bring the more mystical aspect and specifically NOT be a Batman ripoff and took inspiration from Sybil (which was all the rage at the time) and purposely went wouldn't it be cool if the identities were really all different personalities in his head. Thus the creation of 3 identities instead of the typical 2 of that hero archetype. Khonshu because the Tut museum tours of the 70s were golden so try to capture some of that.
The one offs for Hulk were kind of trying to figure out the specifics of how it would work. Highlight there is the one with his brother.
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I was mostly just quibbling about the word "original" in front of "inspiration".
Obviously the The Shadow stuff is in there by design and quite true as far as that goes - just not going so much to the very beginning with silver-batarang reverse-color Batman fighting WWBN...
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...I just read a sequel comic -only because of our discussion, Arcade still sucks beyond words- and it looks like Moon Knight in those Facebook pages was indeed a killbot...
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...The interesting thing about John Walker in the comics was, he was a straight-up sleazy 'Publican jerk who criticized Cap as lame and old-fashioned - until he was hired as the new Cap and tried very hard to live up to the legacy. He failed often, people got killed, he was still a 'Publican jerk and a failure as Cap --- but he was an HONEST jerk now, and eventually grew into a decent superhero in his post-Cap career as USAgent.
I'm a sucker for redemption narratives...
-And I should have mentioned that all that makes him a perfect vehicle for all the stories various writers nearly all want to do sometimes - Cap as a hopelessly square conservative tough to be around, which doesn't actually fit a child of the Depression with a very kind heart. Using Walker/USAgent, instead, for such stories is a pretty good fit.
As I said, he's grown a lot and sincerely renounced killing and become a genuine hero, BUT - a little hard-hearted, and not as adaptable as Cap...
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https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Murderworld-Moon-Knight/Issue-1?id=211285#1
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SO - I just read through the current Moon Knight series, just to be able to discuss w/ you.
Heart's at least half in the right place, I guess, but way too much Khonshu/Khosu adjacent stuff?
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I typically only pick and choose what I read. And you'll have to be a lot more specific as they kinda went nuts on MK with the TV show.
Murderworld: Have not read, not interested
Black White and Blood: Have not read mildly interested Killer covers.
Midnight mission: first anthologies coming out I need to see if I want to read.
Crypt of Shadows: Looks stupid but fun.
Might be more ongoing I don't know about because of how little I pay attention.
Mostly like the original 30-40 book run, the Huston run, and the Lemire run. It's real spotty outside that.
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https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Moon-Knight-2021
White suit, Mr. Knight?
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Me knight is pretty recent. I’m fairly indifferent.
That’s the midnight mission series. Which doesn’t immediately strike me as MK but haven’t read. I know there’s Scarlet at some point, and a lot of c tier guest heroes. Synopsis almost reads like someone was a fan of west coast avengers…
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I wouldn't have thought he'd remember much of that, being as it wasn't him.
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...I caught up on the current MK series -Midnight Mission stuff- yesterday afternoon...
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OMG - UNO!
We ain't never talked about Swamp Thing, early eighties when you were too young, as written by Alan Moore.
My d00d, if you aren't familiar, you GOTS to let me hook you up - it was frequently billed as "Sophisticated Suspense", and if that ain't made-for-you, I don't know what is. There's years worth of the run, ground-breaking stuff that did millions of clever things first that influenced SO many comics ever since.
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