Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: bvanevery on December 26, 2017, 06:14:41 PM

Title: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on December 26, 2017, 06:14:41 PM
So Star Wars explains to us all.  To much annoyance in the case of Greedo actually missing Han Solo at point blank range, in the edited tampering with the original movie.  But consider... C-3PO and R2D2 cross an entire corridor of Rebels and Imperials shooting at each other in the beginning of the film.  They don't get shot!  I remember when I was 7 and saw that, everybody in the theater laughed.  It was pretty funny, the 1st time around, if you can remember back that far.

In another thread, 2 of us have argued at great length about the relationship between piloting and The Force.  AFAIAC "Luke can pilot".  It was sufficiently explained in the original movie, I didn't find it any kind of stretch.  But it's one thing to fly, and another to shoot while flying.  And to avoid being shot.  Luke tells us he can bullseye womp rats with his T-16 back home and they're not much bigger than 2 meters.  I always thought a T-16 was a kind of landspeeder, and that Luke was "rednecking" it with a rifle or something.  So the claim was "yeah, I'm good at shooting while moving".  Just like anyone out on Bureau of Land Management land with an ATV or something.  Turns out a T-16 is a "Skyhopper", a sort of lightly armed civilian equivalent to an X-wing in some ways.  Well who knew?  Luke plays with a model of a T-16 when he's in his "basement" cleaning up the droids, but they never got around to explaining that this was a T-16, so I don't feel that guilty about my "misconception" over all these years.

One thing I did notice, and I'm not sure at what age the thought formed in my mind, is that the targeting of enemy ships is goofy.  Usually, when shooting at "normal" prey, one just waits for the computer to lock on and then presses a button.  Why the button is needed for authorization to fire... is surely just an anachronism, a perceived need for human agency.  I remember reading a Boys' Life article debunking such things, that modern antiaircraft (Phalanx?) guns already locked and fired on their own, that sound doesn't travel in space, etc.  But 1977 was also at the dawn of video games, so we can be forgiven for readily accepting that "pushing the button means something's gonna die."  Star Wars is nothing if not one big video game!

Anyways... "normal" prey, press the button and it dies.  Prey that's strong with the Force, dances all over the computer screen, and you can't get a lock on it, to make it die properly.  Except... look out the window.  In real life, what your eyes tell you, is that ship isn't jumping around anywhere near as much as the computer screen says.  If you just used hand eye coordination, forget the computer, blowing up those enemy ships should be dead simple.  Somehow I noticed this a long time ago, but I didn't fully verbalize the problem until now.

The solution?  Well in my opinion, they just didn't put as much effort into filming "crazy dogfights" as they could have.  At least not in the Death Star trench.  They didn't have CGI yet so maybe there were some limits on what they could do.  I've certainly seen a lot of other movies with a lot of crazy dogfights, using manual machine guns, where one gets a very credible feeling of "yeah, I'd have a lot of trouble hitting this guy."

So storytelling-wise they got me to pay more attention to this clever blip on the computer screen, and not the reality outside the window.  Quite an art of distraction, that is.  "These aren't the fighters you're looking for."


Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on December 26, 2017, 07:26:43 PM
If the force kept you from getting shot, explain the dead jedi in episode one, and Order 66. 

Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on December 26, 2017, 08:50:38 PM
Which dead jedi in E1?  Master Qui Gon Jinn was run through by Darth Maul's lightsaber weapon, not shot.

As for Order 66, it seems that trust, idealism, or a belief in the goodness of the cosmic order, blinds one's senses.  The issue is quite a bit bigger than avoiding being shot, in combat.  Most of the Jedi were shot literally in the back.  I vaguely recall some of them lasting slightly longer in combat against Clone warriors shooting at them from every direction.  I presume their abilities with a Lightsaber weren't up to Yoda's or Obi Wan's level.  The "best" Jedi are on the Council, the underlings have things to learn.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on December 26, 2017, 09:11:25 PM
Sorry episode 2.  My bad.  The big jedi battle against the droids before the clones show up. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on December 26, 2017, 09:13:31 PM
And he's blue, not green.  That's how often I watched this one...

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBsNc_KM5MI#)
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on December 26, 2017, 09:14:41 PM
Oh, look. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAt8WfoINFg#)

Never mind, didn't watch that before posting, it's EU stuff. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on December 26, 2017, 09:17:18 PM
Here's the battle.  ~3 minutes in jedi falling all over the place. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkhVcMos1B4#)
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on December 27, 2017, 12:40:25 AM
Jedi "falling all over the place" ?  I saw 2 jedi die, that I could notice readily.  1, very dramatically shot by the armor wearing guy while standing in front of the Sith guy.  Another, just sorta falling down and getting wiped as the ring closes around the Jedi.  But mostly, the Jedi kick ass against overwhelming odds.  They are almost but not quite invulnerable, it seems.

BTW that Boba Fett looking guy you say is blue, isn't Boba Fett.  That's his Dad.  There are also world cultures where people can't tell the difference between blue and green (the Dinka cattle herders).

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that Jedi performance under incoming fire is exceptional.  They're very unlikely to get shot and will go up against overwhelming firepower like it's no big deal.

Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 03, 2018, 08:58:38 PM
Jedi "falling all over the place" ?  I saw 2 jedi die, that I could notice readily.  1, very dramatically shot by the armor wearing guy while standing in front of the Sith guy.  Another, just sorta falling down and getting wiped as the ring closes around the Jedi.

I suppose if you ignore the jedi bodies litering the ground and the defeated Jedi being held captive brought into the ring after the fighting stops, sure. 

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But mostly, the Jedi kick ass against overwhelming odds.  They are almost but not quite invulnerable, it seems.

BTW that Boba Fett looking guy you say is blue, isn't Boba Fett.  That's his Dad.

Jango Fett.  I was saying the jedi he killed was green, but changed it to blue later.  I honestly thought it was Kit Fisto or another of that species that died up there, but my memory was bad. 

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There are also world cultures where people can't tell the difference between blue and green (the Dinka cattle herders).

I'm quite famously color blind, but it's usually shades of similar colors.  "Teal" is usually just green to me, for instance.  My memory was just faulty as I don't think I've watched that one more than 2-3 times. 

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The preponderance of the evidence suggests that Jedi performance under incoming fire is exceptional.  They're very unlikely to get shot and will go up against overwhelming firepower like it's no big deal.

I'd argue we see trained people performing exceptionally throughout star wars, and scrubs sucking.  Jedi, we see a highly trained group of people.  It becomes pretty hard to separate training from magical powers. 

Han: Exceptional, no force. 
Jango, above, exceptional, no force.  (equals Obi-wan, kills nameless jedi, dies to Mace Windu)
Wedge: Exceptional, no force. 
R2 exceptional, not even alive to be able to use force.
The list could go on. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 04, 2018, 12:29:24 AM
I suppose if you ignore the jedi bodies litering the ground

I saw mostly droid bodies littering the ground, not jedi.

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and the defeated Jedi being held captive brought into the ring after the fighting stops, sure. 

Held at bay, not captive.  And they weren't dead.

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I'd argue we see trained people performing exceptionally throughout star wars, and scrubs sucking.  Jedi, we see a highly trained group of people.  It becomes pretty hard to separate training from magical powers. 

Particularly when the training is all about accessing your magical powers.  What Would Harry Potter Do?

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R2 exceptional, not even alive to be able to use force.

Somehow a very basic agent of The Force, the need for cosmic balance between good and evil.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 04, 2018, 03:05:01 AM
I suppose if you ignore the jedi bodies litering the ground

I saw mostly droid bodies littering the ground, not jedi.

Guess they started dying quicker than I thought, at 2 mins in. 
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/MCvAgV6VIDcpSj5heCRpOX8RTMTQjwu9ZGpdOOFvaR6BWS4UePnGkJXLRvQJIaOzCRPNZVUg7cm5elLrel6SFJ6WF7iEUwYMqKBE_oc_Ab_WjHE3nmjuQ-JKcSf3a9ml_b1NRf05lNw-T4iODLJjiZqkyAv2iQIJ8D-LeMQYLnbedLlP29ceATrg5FxdJvzgJMejsvTiSGJzDlfqbaKKVO_XnMxAGH877lW7xVJ0Sz55wjYdkDt4npBSmyrMHyzd7-hgh7i1lnkoF3U8cFVR4oYaupV094NnqozBKgL5yROLumUmu68c0NSwYGhfMa56VvYQUoLqYq9spRcTyymMhSzTFpnfFZuu551fZUJnlcSGCAVTeKZaCcQZIvh10AC0OIRgpzzLb19xnSfO3YZGWgRtwj5eV7p9Ep1OJI-HMs-TJ-ccZjM5-k0_4dqJXQkbpl7roDXGAIq2HDToVGRUbDsyeri0fGxc6FUSj5YQWUKF8nma0-uHtsDvzUW9uqEI6IC1nQdxqb24h5jRA10dKLO244gjrxhrQaWcolve-8r0HX8nl-mz3EhUGV89kkjwjRkYwfjK72fbzD8MeJmP8FI-TLDYJMl3Q5gENZaF=w1650-h928-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ws3HjUVouxvi0BzNamCUkhOUwuiT_L_22hGShr1udJ15SKm_VlNRIDz4Z8bxhYeEbrNDbQUVyYXLU83AYzSEyB_LA0Fgnq8jchxIZWPcKy63WjAC-_R8OZ2fSZZzz1z8BDnOavlSzvR8TopMIFM_kJO4UwfRH05LhYY3w7tSX_yWkDaK3_L_XWaKfcyFYEinlYK6O9S7TYbBWc0X5ivS2wg42s8fTEnk43FB1DGmk38RQ20YROx98dVKXEigNTIzdD7IW0-6S9uPXxbbLKK-0dcliAGS6XzJTyuZLIPZaOaVBh10ozYj2ZmEPp8UZ4Yf4j67jebJLKXyqgRFUfOfXEoKubjJRw37D0uTTgKbyT39XKB12oCxOU_L-Zs1Jq_epxE2dbS1EuhrCp30V6ObKA31JUVYoSzVBOot3kOnFCoHvN7a-axWiVRCvcM3eZh1Omyb9Vom51VVTCTCXxS7rWf1mdceb1Lg41mwSDOKCrXsw3T1Te199zjfnhDv6rKK_Z4zRELEqzW0FW-hfozOVX3FyVNA2Er374-sFH0I6Gp1tn-ZU3xg37whBr-EVtXXZleGU_-sxDUYEOolJUVeiH_RWRjzq50r6FC0NPJX=w1650-h928-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Okggu_-oT19vOHw3sffX2726RPue6TkJCNuSp1_LmTSLTtFYL4q0f4xEmfzuI6b7Qv49GATBJvNlfEdz37a-zbCQyigeBKqjaFSNnayn8FYJSHJgdL-r-CyMMSWsqN60FgRQ3lBgt7cot7hYhkSFXqK2ZNVwCqqSQqUonWv-_sro0P-7jsUoYLxIvFx40lULcQD8qhnMJGSW96eLq6BwbdnASNivYwkCcoYDWWuVn8Yw2qM5Z8fZUrajxEh8MZufr_KuE1BvDI58wCa85dW-Ys6CkypQM2SgQWUnsQJMOOLQOnSYS000kKQc-4a3GHWZ0bGC9sVvCXDZ4iBufV9JqnlBZFCKZrqAgGPEnyh5N-zKI5YlMXZhV4TZfNHFiMbSX_TL4S4uQ1a1VWRMD5ZfjlIWvl4m0FjUtOT56RtG1CEO61fG9l0KsT51tUOsgYDe_OtrjYd4lxhRhc1Xl1Ro9tGBE2x4UI3Cs68FhLWuygVi3rY-UkTPnuSlQltkK4DRvSu1z1v3oKvGptFFM8e2Uo7_IYkZ46dd4AHOVl0hGGWiwmDXkfdzq2yBIZ8SYgR_bfzx5P9vzyVK09G35l0OmnkiB9rKqdpL2rBnCMuZ=w1650-h928-no)

But, we end up with 15 Jedi standing in the circle.  We see at least 50 around the arena before...That's not doing very good. 

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Held at bay, not captive.  And they weren't dead.

Disarmed, in the hands of geonosians, and apparently wounded. 

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Particularly when the training is all about accessing your magical powers.  What Would Harry Potter Do?

But non-magical folk similarly trained perform just as well. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 04, 2018, 03:47:01 AM
Hmm.  Well I'm forced to admit that's a fair number of dead jedi.  What is going on here?

In the original films, there aren't that many jedi.  Obi-Wan, Darth Vader, Yoda, Luke.  That's it.  And they never get killed by blaster fire, ever.  Luke does get his hand re-wounded, but I say that was solely to show off that he has a mechanical hand.  Darth Vader, famously, not only does not get shot by Han Solo, he even causes blaster bolts to deflect or absorb in his palm.  Luke takes out at least 1 forest speeder that's shooting at him on Endor, using the ricochet technique.

Obi-Wan and Yoda are never shot at, so we don't know how well they do against blaster fire.  Darth Vader is immune; granted he's a fallen jedi.  We don't really know how well the Emperor would do in the original movies as he never gets shot at.

If you're a jedi and important, you don't get shot.  Much.  Luke gets shot a little.  Mace Windu doesn't get shot at all.  Famously, he cuts Jango Fett to ugly bits while being continuously shot at.  Sorta demonstrating the textbook jedi "this is how you not get shot and cut someone up" routine.

Pretty sure Obi-Wan and his master demonstrate near invincibility to blaster fire at the beginning of The Phantom Menace.  They do make a tactical withdrawl due to some heavy droids coming down a corridor, IIRC.  Can't remember how they resolved that one.  Maybe they got captured and then un-captured themselves?  I forget.  But I know they didn't get shot, when a lot of stuff was shooting at them.  Jedi mowing down droids was a lot of what the prequels were about.

Seems if you're a jedi mook, you get shot.  Or if you're being betrayed by Order 66 and are not Yoda.  The best of the best, the wisest of the wise.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Spacy on January 04, 2018, 01:59:01 PM
# of shots.  They can deflect 1 or 2, but when there are 30 all coming in at the same time.....

Blasters are "inaccurate" weapons.  At 20 meters they can be off target by 1/2 meter (trying to remember where I saw that, I think it was the MMO game, but honestly it explains why storm troopers cannot hit anything and it kinda stuck with me).  They are used due to their destructive power and lack of maintenance requirements. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 04, 2018, 02:55:10 PM
And the Star Wars universe didn't happen to evolve the efficacious alternative of traditional kinetic ammo, ala Stargate.  Point being, blaster accuracy is a handwave.  It's also bluntly dispelled in the original movie.  Roughly: "Look at these blast points.  Far too accurate for Sandpeople.  Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise."  The reason Stormtroopers miss, is simply plot armor.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 04, 2018, 06:20:41 PM
And the Star Wars universe didn't happen to evolve the efficacious alternative of traditional kinetic ammo, ala Stargate.  Point being, blaster accuracy is a handwave.  It's also bluntly dispelled in the original movie.  Roughly: "Look at these blast points.  Far too accurate for Sandpeople.  Only Imperial Stormtroopers are this precise."

IIRC the troopers on tatooine had a form of sniper rifle.  That could explain the supreme accuracy comment.   

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The reason Stormtroopers miss, is simply plot armor.

I'm not sure they do miss more than anyone else:

A New Hope:
They are quite effective in boarding Leia's ship. 
The famously miss our heros in the death star, however, they are under orders to allow the enemy to escape, so this may be intentional. 

Empire:
No problems hitting rebels on Hoth. 

Jedi:
Do we get a big trooper battle?  I mean they are hitting Ewoks, but being killed by logs, sure. 

No STORM troopers in the prequels or sequels.  Though the First Order doesn't seem to be having much aiming trouble, and the clone troopers had no problems anywhere. 

Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 04, 2018, 06:39:03 PM
Darth Vader, famously, not only does not get shot by Han Solo, he even causes blaster bolts to deflect or absorb in his palm. 

That always made me wonder as a kid:  Was it the force, or was it his robot hand?  The sequels would seem to firmly confirm the force effects blaster fire. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 04, 2018, 06:52:40 PM
IIRC the troopers on tatooine had a form of sniper rifle.  That could explain the supreme accuracy comment.   


Which doesn't get used much of anywhere else despite its inherent utility.  It packs a great deal of potential energy in an extremely efficient package...

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They are quite effective in boarding Leia's ship. 

They are effective at killing mooks.  They completely miss the droid heroes that walk right through them.  Yes they were probably not aiming for the droids, but considering the amount of fire everyone was laying down... one wonders if they'd miss the walls.

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The famously miss our heros in the death star, however, they are under orders to allow the enemy to escape, so this may be intentional. 

I'm not buying it.  Those Stormtroopers who returned fire, were actually dying.  You think it's their pay grade to make sure they die, just to be convincing?  It is also not strictly necessary for all of the heroes to escape, only Leia and 1 Falcon pilot.  The rest could be killed.  No, the Stormtroopers were fighting for real.  Command probably made sure the heroes faced very limited numbers of troops.  Once Vader hatches the plan.  They do have some fighting before then.

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No problems hitting rebels on Hoth. 

They're mooks.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 04, 2018, 06:59:26 PM
Was it the force, or was it his robot hand?

We never saw if Vader had a robot hand, nor was it ever said he did.  We know that he's "more machine than man now", but we don't know how much or which parts.  Clearly he needs a helmet and a breathing apparatus.  Must have something going on in the chest, 'cuz he's got a big chest plate with buttons all over it.  We can infer some kind of damage to his head.

So I don't see any reason why you should have believed it was due to Vader's possible "robot hand".  Not like robots or mechanical equipment were magically immune to blaster fire.  For instance if you want to shut a blast door, you blast its control panel.

If you got this idea from something that wasn't in the film, well then here we go again.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 04, 2018, 10:13:16 PM
We never saw if Vader had a robot hand, nor was it ever said he did.

You're kidding me, right?  Remind me AGAIN, how much better your memory is than me. 

Luke hacks off his hand in ROTJ  and makes a point of staring at the mechanical stump, and then his own mechanical hand. 

But Luke's hand can pass as human when it's not getting shot, and the only visible damage was to the 'skin', so the cybernetics is there.  Vader, clearly, is not even TRYING to pass as human.  Always made me wonder what all was different with his. 


(Not to mention you can see his skeleton when he picks up the emperor which fairly clearly shows mechanical crap attached at the neck and around the elbows.  Not that I expect anyone else to really look at the bones, but even back then I had issues.  And yes, it's just as likely the mechanics were for whatever was puppeteering the skeleton, but they happen to fit the injuries as well. ) 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 05, 2018, 12:48:32 AM
Luke hacks off his hand in ROTJ  and makes a point of staring at the mechanical stump, and then his own mechanical hand. 

In ROTJ.  Vader blocks Han's blaster bolts in ESB.  So unless you never watched the movies in the original, and happened to rent them on VHS / DVD to play catch-up, you should never have formed that impression while watching ESB.  It's quite obvious that Vader's use of the Force is what's going on here, as he uses that very same Force to rip Han's blaster out of his hand.  To end the presumably itchy blaster firing.  "I think a fly landed on my finger."

We're talking about a 3 year gap between ESB and ROTJ.  There's no way you would have got "some other idea" if you watched the movies in order as they came out.

Heck for that matter, when Vader blocks the blaster bolts Luke hasn't lost his hand yet.  That's later in the same movie.  Luke isn't sporting a mechanical hand until the very end of ESB.  There's no way you're getting "musta been Vader's mechanical hand" outta ESB.

Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 05, 2018, 01:05:33 AM
I said I wondered as a kid, not I wondered at the end of watching ESB.  I don't think I actually grasped the whole Vader just shrugging off the blast on my original viewing of ESB to be honest.  And it wouldn't have been until Jedi that I reviewed ESB, since it suffered from tasting funny when I was younger, and Raiders quickly grabbed my attention away when I wasn't being fed a steady horror diet in my viewing.   
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 05, 2018, 02:15:35 AM
I don't think I actually grasped the whole Vader just shrugging off the blast on my original viewing of ESB to be honest.

And that's the core of it.  In fairness, we've never seen a Jedi or Sith perform this feat before.  It's a new power.  Watching the movies in order, the Good Guys and Bad Guys are both gradually revealed to have stronger and stronger powers.  This nuance is lost if one watches the movies all the way from the prequels forwards.  One would then be inclined to wonder why Vader is holding back.

This unfortunately becomes most obvious and egregious in the transition from Rogue One to A New Hope.  Vader ends Rogue One by cutting many Rebel soldiers to pieces in a complete bloodbath. (If lightsaber wounds actually bled; I think they usually cauterize.)  That's the kind of thing Anakin did too, so it's not exactly wrong action, seen from the "world chronology" standpoint.  But then we have Vader entering Leia's ship in A New Hope, presumably not terribly much separated in time from the bloodbath (days?  hours?) and he merely lets the Stormtroopers do all the work.  He also takes "more crap" from an Imperial General when they're discussing the completion of the Death Star, than Anakin would have ever taken.  Like, uh, Mr. Imperial General, didn't you get the memo that you're talking to the biggest badass in the galaxy?

It's difficult to fully retcon a franchise spanning decades.  For instance, Darth Vader and Obi-Wan's lightsaber fighting is not bad fighting, in any classic swordplay sense.  It's probably fairly realistic: these are weapons that can kill you with a touch.  But the style of fighting looks nothing like the flashy curvy stuff they developed for the prequels.  Higher marital arts choreography budget, and greater audience sophistication about the martial arts, happened between then and now.

So, I'm still just wishing the prequels never happened, and that someone would simply erase that material from the canon.  It would be better for someone with better storytelling skills, to simply do it over, in the style of the original 2 Star Wars movies.  ROTJ clearly showed how bad things were going to develop, and it just got worse and worse and worse in the prequels.  What's the next Planet Endor we're going to do, to sell more toys?
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 08, 2018, 08:23:48 PM
I don't think I actually grasped the whole Vader just shrugging off the blast on my original viewing of ESB to be honest.


And that's the core of it.  In fairness, we've never seen a Jedi or Sith perform this feat before.  It's a new power. 


Still makes sense I would have had the thought he was entirely robot except the head as a child, and therefore could be explained by weird armor. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpQsk9cGpIA#)

That TOTALLY looks like a head on a robot to a kid, especially with how he walks and given the more machine than man line.

It was about this time I was trying to recreate the brain that wouldn't die/Atom age vampire for halloween on my porch, so I had a headless fetish at the time, granted. 



Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 08, 2018, 08:47:52 PM
They are effective at killing mooks.  They completely miss the droid heroes that walk right through them.  Yes they were probably not aiming for the droids, but considering the amount of fire everyone was laying down... one wonders if they'd miss the walls.

That was a cross fire, and BOTH sides miss the droids, you can't point to it as an example of storm troopers being worse shots than anyone else.  The fact they are effectively killing mooks means they have to be at least as effective as the mooks. 
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I'm not buying it.  Those Stormtroopers who returned fire, were actually dying.  You think it's their pay grade to make sure they die, just to be convincing?  It is also not strictly necessary for all of the heroes to escape, only Leia and 1 Falcon pilot.  The rest could be killed.  No, the Stormtroopers were fighting for real.  Command probably made sure the heroes faced very limited numbers of troops.  Once Vader hatches the plan.  They do have some fighting before then.

So you expect them to identify who the pilot is ?  (also pretty sure it's covered the falcon kinda needs a co-pilot if you're not Rey)

AFAIK the only "real" fighting before THE PLAN is the surprise in the jail.  You've adequately covered how surprises work, even against Jedi.  Once it was clear there was a rescue attempt underway, the plan would have been in place, and the tracker being installed on the Falcon.  The storm troopers from there were then just delaying things long enough for the tracker to be installed. 

For that matter, are we really so sure it was R2 that shut down the trash compactor? 

And yes, it's probably better to be shot and potentially only wounded than whatever Vader is going to do to someone.  He's shown to have a penchant for torture.  (before you claim not till ROTJ, that wasn't a pleasure floaty orb he was bringing in to 'interrogate' Leia.  And just because it will get to you, yes, the torture scene is in the radio drama too...)


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They're mooks.

Which doesn't matter when your argument is troopers are lousy shots in general.  One of the AT-AT drivers manages to shoot down Luke as well. 

So it boils down to troopers are fine shots when not shooting at the heroes, and the only time they actually SHOOT at the heroes, they are being let to escape.  The whole Troopers are a lousy shot thing really doesn't add up for me. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 08, 2018, 09:10:44 PM
Still makes sense I would have had the thought he was entirely robot except the head as a child, and therefore could be explained by weird armor. 
 

But he has lungs.  He spends all this time breathing heavily, from his very 1st appearance.  So it's reasonable to assume he's got a head and chest.  Don't know if he has a real heart, but he could.  I'm only realizing now, we don't really know if he eats!  Does he have a working digestive system?  His mask certainly would make eating awkward and very personal.  Does he take a dump?

We don't see any droids in the original movies that have completely organic, fluid body movement.  Rather, they move about "robotically".  It is not reasonable to assume that Darth Vader is all robot.  We're not sure how human he is, and at the end of ESB we see that cyborg tech is reasonably advanced, so it's like "how much of his arms and legs?  Some / all of them?"  We don't know.

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That TOTALLY looks like a head on a robot to a kid, especially with how he walks and given the more machine than man line.


This is where, in a reversal of our debating roles, I had the benefit of knowing a little bit about the intended movie lore.  While waiting for ESB, many of us had heard rumors that Obi Wan and Darth Vader got in a big duel in a volcano.  Obi Wan chopped him up and Vader got burned.  That's why Vader has a number of replacement parts.  It turned out this rumor was true.  I was quite surprised at just how much of Vader they burned off in the 3rd prequel.  I had never supposed he'd sustained that much damage.  "Serious burn victim" I would have thought would be enough to justify the suit.

You see a head mounted on a robot.  I see a support collar for a burn victim.  I happened to have been right.  The film is ambiguous, and probably deliberately so, to give writers maximum wiggle room.  But it is a certainty, that the guy at least breathes, with mechanical assistance.

In any event, we never see any robots or any kind of body armor in Star Wars that's immune to blaster fire.  The only substance that shows any basic immunity to blasters is "blast doors".  It's just not credible, given the rest the universe, that Vader has a physical protective capability that nobody else has got.  Why use shields if they have such materials?

In fact, we are made to wonder why Stormtroopers wear body armor at all.  It doesn't seem to stop anything.

Just remembered: the garbage compactor is "magnetically sealed (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Magnetic_seal)".  Why that causes blaster bolts to ricochet I really couldn't tell you.  Star Wars physics?  Why use it for a garbage compactor and not for other stuff?
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 08, 2018, 10:06:08 PM

But he has lungs. 


Don't put logic into my childhood. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bidEQn6vfg#)

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We don't see any droids in the original movies that have completely organic, fluid body movement.  Rather, they move about "robotically".  It is not reasonable to assume that Darth Vader is all robot.  We're not sure how human he is, and at the end of ESB we see that cyborg tech is reasonably advanced, so it's like "how much of his arms and legs?  Some / all of them?"  We don't know.


Exactly, and could the be bullet proof is not unreasonable IMO. 

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This is where, in a reversal of our debating roles, I had the benefit of knowing a little bit about the intended movie lore.  While waiting for ESB, many of us had heard rumors that Obi Wan and Darth Vader got in a big duel in a volcano.  Obi Wan chopped him up and Vader got burned.  That's why Vader has a number of replacement parts.  It turned out this rumor was true.  I was quite surprised at just how much of Vader they burned off in the 3rd prequel.  I had never supposed he'd sustained that much damage.  "Serious burn victim" I would have thought would be enough to justify the suit.


I don't remember at which point that came out in the fan club stuff. 

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You see a head mounted on a robot.  I see a support collar for a burn victim.  I happened to have been right.  The film is ambiguous, and probably deliberately so, to give writers maximum wiggle room.  But it is a certainty, that the guy at least breathes, with mechanical assistance.

In any event, we never see any robots or any kind of body armor in Star Wars that's immune to blaster fire.  The only substance that shows any basic immunity to blasters is "blast doors".  It's just not credible, given the rest the universe, that Vader has a physical protective capability that nobody else has got.  Why use shields if they have such materials?

In fact, we are made to wonder why Stormtroopers wear body armor at all.  It doesn't seem to stop anything.



Logic don't work on children. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 09, 2018, 04:02:06 AM
Exactly, and could the be bullet proof is not unreasonable IMO.

This is a galaxy of blasters, not bullets.  And unlike Dune, nobody in the original movies has a personal shield.

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Logic don't work on children.

IIRC you were 5 when you saw the original Star Wars?  I was 7.  ESB comes out 3 years later in 1980.  I'm 10, you're 8.  I'm not seeing that there should be that big of a logic gap between us.  To put it in perspective, when I was 8, I was mastering AD&D as a Dungeon Master.  I think 8 year olds are capable of quite a lot.

Ok I admit it, I was a math / logic / good at chess kid.  Made it to the 1st table of the Golden Gate Junior Chess Association back then, at which point I was summarily creamed by 3 other players who were massively better than I was.  I think that's mostly a benchmark of how many trained chess players the GGJCA could draw in; definitely not me!  But you've made it to a SMAC forum, which means you have paid a certain amount of brains as an entry fee, or you wouldn't be here.

I'm not buying that "your brain didn't work / didn't know logic" when you were 8.  Maybe you liked your idea better than what was logically shown in the film, and just refused to notice all the stuff that was at odds with your idea you liked.

Maybe you saw some other film that conditioned you to think about Vader's biology, the way you actually did.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 09, 2018, 01:48:55 PM
You don't want to get in to how [messed up - or loved very much] up I was by age 8. 

By that point I'd see the result of a murder/suicide, had begun being regularly abused by mom, and was working with Kevin Yagher (invented Freddy Krueger's makeup).  My film catalog at that age would make most adults cringe today.  The plethora of horror and scifi (usually in combo) films did condition you that the big bad robot guy was typically resistant to bullets/blasteres/whatever.  It's kind of a trope to be honest.  So, I don't think I would have given it a second thought.  It's cliche, really, and I don't think it much of a stretch at all.  It's the first time he was shot at.  You saw magical powers being his shield, I saw robot body being his shield, neither view detracts from the story. 

Looks like I might have picked it up from the book.  Which is just more proof my reading that it's his limbs and not force isn't so far out of whack...  He CLEARLY gets HIT, it just does no damage.  That reads a lot more like special armor than force power to me. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmyyNhfAaFU#)
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 09, 2018, 06:38:44 PM
Didn't wish to be that right about your childhood film influences.   :'(  Whereas I avoided horror like the plague because it scared the crap out of me.

I'm not clear what that novelization actually said on the subject.  The video maker seems to be spinning and riffing on things not said.

Very few things in the Star Wars universe take no damage when hit by blaster fire.  Although on closer inspection, one might wonder if "the environment" is magically immune, because otherwise wouldn't all these stray bolts be causing a lot of destruction everywhere?  I'm sure they didn't want to turn the film into "squib hell" so just ignored the problem.
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 09, 2018, 09:00:47 PM
Very few things in the Star Wars universe take no damage when hit by blaster fire.

Supposedly mandalorian armor, though I don't think we ever see it. 
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: bvanevery on January 09, 2018, 09:25:47 PM
Supposedly mandalorian armor, though I don't think we ever see it.

You see it plenty in the online games, like Star Wars: The Old Republic.  I bet we see some on the bridge of Vader's flagship in ESB when he's talking to a bunch of bounty hunters.  But of course we aren't told what it is, nor is any of it subjected to blaster fire.

Stormtroopers have pretty crap armor as far as blasters are concerned.  There also aren't a lot of conventional munitions or explosions in this universe, to justify the wearing of such armor for other reasons.  I'm pretty sure that having anyone wear good armor, would have gotten in the way of the pew pew pew storyline.  People would have been like "Huuuh, why does he have good armor?"

Fortunately for Star Wars at the time it was made, modern infantry battlefield armor wasn't really a thing yet.  Even police armor was probably in its infancy.  Some of us however knew a little bit about medieval armor, thanks to AD&D.  I'm not sure at what age I began wondering about things like, "can crossbow bolts go through armor?"  (Yes!)  Followed by, "can musket balls go through armor?"  That question is basically where AD&D ends and some other kind of game would begin.  A sort of cross-genre RPG question.

I don't remember noticing or caring about the "arms vs. armor" issue as a kid, but sometime as I grew up, it began to be on my mind.  Of course eventually they just ruined the whole franchise with the prequels anyways, so....
Title: Re: the Force keeps you from getting shot
Post by: Unorthodox on January 09, 2018, 10:06:40 PM
Yes, Boba Fett has Mandalorian armor, but we never see it stop a blaster. 
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