Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on April 18, 2017, 03:05:03 PM

Title: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 18, 2017, 03:05:03 PM
Been wondering over the news coverage of this NK missile test. 

Along the lines of "how dare he?"  He's threatening peace in the region, etc. 

Is it really?  We KNEW it was coming...
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Lorizael on April 18, 2017, 05:45:02 PM
As with a lot of actions in international politics, it seems that missile tests are provocative because we all kind of decided they were, because it seems like the kind of thing we should see as provocative.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Elok on April 18, 2017, 06:37:38 PM
Apparently, it provoked.  Not sure what it provoked.  We have a very provokable administration right now.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 18, 2017, 09:26:09 PM
Let's just say there's a reason I'm asking. 
As with a lot of actions in international politics, it seems that missile tests are provocative because we all kind of decided they were, because it seems like the kind of thing we should see as provocative.

But DID we decide that?

Is it a big deal when we do a test? 
Russia?
China? 

Or is the public perception that those don't happen anymore? 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Spacy on April 19, 2017, 01:56:02 AM
I think it relies a bit on trust.

Do we trust NK to not drop a nuke or a couple tons of sarin gas on someone for no particular reason?  Nope.
De we trust Russia and China?  Well, a lot more than NK, but not really trustworthy... south china sea and Ukraine are a few examples.

Course, I expect that the amount of trust we have with them is about the same as they have with us...
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on April 19, 2017, 11:08:34 AM
If there is no trust, EVERY action is a provocation.

Even if its just staring to another person on the workfloor.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 20, 2017, 02:58:38 AM
I said sometimes.

As a boomer, I tend to believe that the MAD theory actually worked. I can understand that other nations would like to join the nuclear club, so they wouldn't have to worry so much about being invaded, or threatened with WMD's.

I think the provocation part comes in with the direction and trajectory of the missiles. Shooting towards bases or cities in Japan, but landing a little short in the ocean.

Sort of like if I was shooting directly towards my neighbor's house, but deliberately hitting a tree on the property line. He'd likely be upset and ask me to stop, but if I continued to do the same thing, or maybe hitting a stump by his doghouse, or his parked car, I'd be provoking him. If I shot in the opposite direction, not so much.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 20, 2017, 05:05:10 AM
I said sometimes.

As a boomer, I tend to believe that the MAD theory actually worked. I can understand that other nations would like to join the nuclear club, so they wouldn't have to worry so much about being invaded, or threatened with WMD's.

I think the provocation part comes in with the direction and trajectory of the missiles. Shooting towards bases or cities in Japan, but landing a little short in the ocean.

Sort of like if I was shooting directly towards my neighbor's house, but deliberately hitting a tree on the property line. He'd likely be upset and ask me to stop, but if I continued to do the same thing, or maybe hitting a stump by his doghouse, or his parked car, I'd be provoking him. If I shot in the opposite direction, not so much.

Which direction should North Korea aim?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Spacy on April 20, 2017, 11:27:03 AM
I know which direction I would like to see them aim.... but that it won't ever happen. 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 20, 2017, 07:06:20 PM
I was thinking China...
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2017, 01:21:49 PM
http://time.com/4755266/north-korea-minuteman-icbm-test-launch/ (http://time.com/4755266/north-korea-minuteman-icbm-test-launch/)

Quote

The U.S. Will Conduct a Missile Test on Wednesday Amid North Korea Tensions











Kevin Lui



Apr 25, 2017


 




The U.S. will conduct a nuclear-capable intercontinental ballistic missile test Wednesday, according to an announcement from the Air Force.

The test launch from California's Vandenberg Air Force Base will involve an unarmed Minuteman III ICBM, and is scheduled to take place between 12 a.m. and 6 a.m. PST. The purpose of the test is to "verify the status of our national nuclear force and to demonstrate our national nuclear capabilities," Col. John Moss, 30th Space Wing commander, who will order the launch, said in a statement.


The scheduled test launch comes amid escalating tensions on the Korean peninsula over Pyongyang's recent missile tests and concerns that it is about to conduct a sixth nuclear test. On Tuesday, North Korea celebrated the anniversary of its military's founding with a show of force and a live-fire artillery drill. The same day, a U.S. nuclear-powered submarine, the USS Michigan, docked in the South Korean port city of Busan, according to the Associated Press, and the USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier strike group is headed toward the peninsula.

On Wednesday, South Korea announced it was deploying parts of the U.S. Terminal High-Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) missile defense system, which has angered North Korea, China and Russia who consider it a security threat.

Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2017, 09:03:26 PM
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/ (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/)

Quote
 




The test was conducted by the Air Force Global Strike Command’s team from the 90th Missile Wing at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming, 341st Missile Wing at Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana and the 625th Strategic Operations Squadron at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. Warren Air Force Base is one of three missile bases overseeing the country’s intercontinental ballistic missile forces.

According to the Air Force Global Strike Command, the launch was designed to “verify the accuracy and reliability” of the Minuteman missile system as well as provide “valuable data to ensure a continued safe, secure and effective nuclear deterrent.”

The missile has been in service for 60 years, but it has been upgraded over the years with improved targeting and enhanced accuracy systems, the Air Force said.

On Monday, the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization, criticized the timing of the launch, citing heightened tension between the U.S. and North Korea. In recent weeks, North Korea has stepped up its testing of ballistic missiles.




“When it comes to missile testing, the U.S. is operating with a clear double standard: It views its own tests as justified and useful, while it views the tests of North Korea as threatening and destabilizing,” foundation President David Krieger said in a statement. “What is needed is diplomacy rather than military provocations. Threats, whether in the form of tweets, nuclear-capable aircraft carrier groups, or nuclear-capable missile launches, only increase the dangers to us all.”
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2017, 09:05:41 PM
So, does this change your opinions at all?

Is [Sleezebag] just provoking/responding? 

I'm genuinely curious how folks feel about it, while noting a lot of the mainstream sources aren't even reporting it happened. 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2017, 09:13:46 PM
I had seen a headline this morning - the general basically admitted it was partly a gesture...
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 27, 2017, 03:55:48 PM
. . .

Uh huh.  And the timing? 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 27, 2017, 04:43:51 PM
No idea.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 27, 2017, 05:02:59 PM
. . .

Uh huh.  And the timing?

Sure seems provocative.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 28, 2017, 12:11:28 AM
So let's just say someone theoretically had an idea this was happening long before this thread was made.  Like the timing was made a year ago.


And perhaps there's another coming up?


What are the odds NK will do something between now and the next?  Thus it will appear as another response to NK?


Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on April 28, 2017, 08:51:18 AM
What are the odds NK will do something between now and the next?  Thus it will appear as another response to NK?

What are the odds some AEGIS destroyer near North Korea's eastern territorial waters will attempt to intercept the next test missile?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Spacy on April 29, 2017, 12:14:11 PM
I am just wondering how much of it was the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 30, 2017, 05:11:31 AM
I'm starting to think it's NK and our government just playing a GAME.  I'm pretty sure we KNOW when their tests are going to happen, and they know when OURS are, they just take turns acting outraged over them. 

NK right on schedule:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKBN17U2XB (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-northkorea-missiles-idUSKBN17U2XB)


Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 03, 2017, 01:53:46 PM
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/610834/us-test-icbm-minuteman-missil-north-korea (http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/610834/us-test-icbm-minuteman-missil-north-korea)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/799564/US-military-fires-ballistic-missile-nuclear-test-North-Korea-World-War-3 (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/799564/US-military-fires-ballistic-missile-nuclear-test-North-Korea-World-War-3)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4469220/America-test-fires-nuclear-capable-ICBM.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4469220/America-test-fires-nuclear-capable-ICBM.html)

The US news hasn't woken up yet. 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 04, 2017, 01:18:41 AM
Quote
Missile launched from California coast in a 'nuclear deterrent' test, Air Force says
Los Angeles Times
Veronica Rocha  5 hrs ago


(http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBAI4T4.img?h=511&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1403&y=710)
© RINGO CHIU/AFP/Getty Images) Photographers take pictures of a streak of light trailing off into the night sky as the US military test fires an unarmed intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) at Vandenberg Air Force Base, some 130 miles (209…

 
LOS ANGELES — An unarmed intercontinental ballistic missile was launched Wednesday from Vandenberg Air Force Base to test the weapon's reliability and ensure an "effective nuclear deterrent," according to the U.S. Air Force.

The Minuteman III missile test launch occurred at 12:02 a.m. PDT from the base northwest of Santa Barbara, according to Air Force Global Strike Command. The missile, equipped with a single-test re-entry vehicle, traveled 4,200 miles to a test range near the Kwajalein Atoll in the Marshall Islands.

"These test launches verify the accuracy and reliability of the ICBM weapon system, providing valuable data to ensure a continued safe, secure and effective nuclear deterrent," the strike command said in a statement.

The launch was conducted by the 341st Missile Wing at Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana, the 576th Flight Test Squadron and Vandenberg's 30th Space Wing team, the Air Force said.

"It's efforts like these that make nuclear deterrence effective," Col. Craig Ramsey, commander of the 576th Flight Test Squadron, said in a statement.

Vandenberg Air Force Base and the 576th Flight Test Squadron have been preparing for the operational test launch for the last 10 months, Col. Chris Moss, Vandenberg's 30th Space Wing commander, said in a statement. The 341st Missile Wing is one of three missile bases overseeing the country's intercontinental ballistic missile forces.

Before its launch, the Minuteman III missile was pulled randomly from a silo at Malmstrom and transported to Vandenberg, where it was reassembled, according to the Air Force.

Air Force Global Strike Command said data collected from test launches are used for "continuing force development evaluation." Test launches demonstrate the capability of the Minuteman missile system as well as ensure "the United States' ability to maintain a strong, credible nuclear deterrent as a key element of U.S. national security and the security of U.S. allies and partners," the strike command said.

The Minuteman III missile has been in service for 60 years, but it has been upgraded with improved targeting and enhanced accuracy systems, the Air Force said.

The test is the second missile launched from the base in a week.

Another test was conducted by the Air Force Global Strike Command's team April 26. Air Force officials said that launch was an operational test to show the country's nuclear deterrent capability.

The Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization based in Santa Barbara, has criticized the timing and the Air Force's motives for both launches. The organization has said the launches come amid heightened tensions between the U.S. and North Korea.

On Friday, North Korea's military launched a ballistic missile hours after Secretary of State Rex Tillerson called on the U.N. Security Council to impose new economic sanctions against the country. The weapon apparently crashed nearby or in waters just offshore.

North Korea has stepped up its missile testing in recent weeks, having launched at least seven short- and mid-range projectiles this year.

Wednesday's test is the third ICBM launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base this year.

The other test missile was launched in February. That missile, equipped with a nonexplosive payload, also traveled to a test range in Kwajalein Atoll in the Marshall Islands.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 02, 2017, 04:11:51 PM
https://news.google.com/news/story/dmeNaHdPPKAU4tMvfW4_7K6mcwu_M?ned=us&hl=en

Actually brought the kids in for the show last night. 

After the last 3 launches have followed my advice, they had a newb MC and didn't do any of the bells and whistles I had worked so hard to bring to these shows. 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 09, 2017, 03:43:47 AM
 I find the language of the demagogues today more provocative than the tests.

I really want to give them both time outs.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on August 09, 2017, 03:41:36 PM
I find the language of the demagogues today more provocative than the tests.

I really want to give them both time outs.

I want to put both of them in the corner. With donkey ears on their heads.
Title: The American aggression represents a dangerous action.
Post by: Bearu on August 10, 2017, 04:05:00 AM
The presence of the aggressive American military action in the region represents the sole purpose for existence of the North Korean missile arsenal. If the Americans would simply refuse to participate in the escalation of the conflict, then the people would not need to resort into the application of a violent solution or the threats of a violent solution. The people simply desire peace, but the North Koreans would defend their homeland from the imperialist paper tigers known as the United States of America because the country represents a buffer between the imperialist expansion of the American sphere into the Asian continent.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 22, 2017, 02:40:46 PM
Uh huh. 

Anyway, I've had this theory for a while.  Things REALLY aren't that different with NK than they've been.  But the press (and to some extent [Sleezebag]) is MAKING them SEEM more dire.  What if it's all a show to sell congress/the public on some new weapons?


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-pentagon-gbsd-idUSKCN1B12H3?il=0 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-pentagon-gbsd-idUSKCN1B12H3?il=0)
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on August 22, 2017, 06:41:27 PM
New Minuteman's can't be ordered instead? It's not like other types of ICBM's in the world are inheritantly better?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 22, 2017, 06:59:59 PM
I'd like to hope that the two authoritarians are simply posing to gain support for more control and approval to spend on defense in time of danger.

But I'm worried that they may go back to playing Cuban Missile Crisis high stakes poker, with every gesture a mortal peril to everyone on the planet except themselves.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 22, 2017, 09:44:49 PM
New Minuteman's can't be ordered instead? It's not like other types of ICBM's in the world are inheritantly better?

I think you misunderstand what you're asking.  It's not the vehicle that's the biggest challenge (though it could certainly be upgraded) it's the brains. 

Would you willingly purchase a 1970s era computer, even if it was fresh off an assembly line?   


Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on August 23, 2017, 02:44:28 PM
New Minuteman's can't be ordered instead? It's not like other types of ICBM's in the world are inheritantly better?

I think you misunderstand what you're asking.  It's not the vehicle that's the biggest challenge (though it could certainly be upgraded) it's the brains. 

Would you willingly purchase a 1970s era computer, even if it was fresh off an assembly line?   

Well, yes, even the Space Shuttle electronics were only a generation out of date. ;)
You have a point.
Even so, I reckon an up-to-date electronics suite would need less space then 1970-era stuff.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 23, 2017, 03:04:41 PM
Less space means smaller payload, means different vehicle requirements, whole new ground support architecture, and so on, thus umpteen billion to build, thus we need to sell the idea...

This time I'd hope they design it to be upgraded easily instead of hard baking the hardware into the design.  Granted, it was designed for a 10 year life span, not 40+...
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on August 23, 2017, 03:47:28 PM
Less space means smaller payload, means different vehicle requirements, whole new ground support architecture, and so on, thus umpteen billion to build, thus we need to sell the idea...

This time I'd hope they design it to be upgraded easily instead of hard baking the hardware into the design.  Granted, it was designed for a 10 year life span, not 40+...

I meant a smaller space for emulating the existing electronics, which gives room for a couple new features. I reckon the 'payload' (nuclear warheads) would be the same?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 24, 2017, 03:31:00 AM
I can't imagine there's a need for new ordnance.  New RV's maybe. 

I'd think everything post boost phase could significantly be weight/size reduced. 

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xnSGOLbDt8#)
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 24, 2017, 07:37:29 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that provocation lies in the bearing and trajectory.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 24, 2017, 08:18:46 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that provocation lies in the bearing and trajectory.

Tell me where NK can point it that is not provocative.   
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 25, 2017, 12:49:23 AM
Probably better if they did their testing on a Russian range.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on August 25, 2017, 02:32:36 AM
Sure. That only breaks a few treaties.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on August 25, 2017, 03:01:25 PM
Tell me where NK can point it that is not provocative.   

Straight up? ;)
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 25, 2017, 10:24:24 PM
Sure. That only breaks a few treaties.

Didn't know that.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: E_T on September 02, 2017, 07:05:20 PM
Tell me where NK can point it that is not provocative.   

Straight up? ;)

they could just aim it at themselves.... 

All kidding aside, they could just try for a space program and then develop the other stuff afterwards...  But then, that wouldn't keep the hawks in line, either...  All in all, a bad situation that is only going to get worse... 

If we do go to war with NK again, let's make sure that we bring the Japanese, too.  They chomped at the bit for the last one, due to post WW2 stuff, but we should had let them in then.  And don't think that some of those potential nukes aren't pointed at them (along with SK).  Very long, bloody history between Korea and Japan....
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on September 02, 2017, 07:50:14 PM
If we do go to war with NK again, let's make sure that we bring the Japanese, too.  They chomped at the bit for the last one, due to post WW2 stuff, but we should had let them in then.  And don't think that some of those potential nukes aren't pointed at them (along with SK).  Very long, bloody history between Korea and Japan....

And let's not forget the Chinese and Russians. I'm sure they'll want to bang some heads as well in the muddy mountains of Korea.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: E_T on December 03, 2017, 02:13:29 AM
Well, now that they have a missile that can reach (possibly) DC, as well as most the the eastern Seaboard, what do you think the Tweet myster will do now??  Nothing good I think.... 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 03, 2017, 07:07:14 AM
Do they? 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Geo on December 03, 2017, 07:44:58 AM
I guess it depends whether or not the presence of ordnance in the missile was tested as well.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 03:17:11 AM
https://www.noozhawk.com/article/vandenberg_afb_tests_minuteman_iii_icbm_mum_about_outcome (https://www.noozhawk.com/article/vandenberg_afb_tests_minuteman_iii_icbm_mum_about_outcome)

Quote
Vandenberg AFB Officials Mum After Test of Minuteman III ICBM
Launch comes during Air Force Public Affairs freeze which limits information

By Janene Scully, Noozhawk North County Editor | @JaneneScully | updated logo 2:54 p.m. | April 25, 2018 | 11:34 a.m.
Share on email Share on print
1

Missile blasting off Click to view larger
A Minuteman III weapon equipped with a mock warhead blasted out of its underground silo at Vandenberg Air Force Base early Wednesday for a routine test (U.S. Air Force photo)
A Minuteman III weapon equipped with a mock warhead blasted out of its underground silo at Vandenberg Air Force Base early Wednesday for a routine test that still has the military remaining mum.

The three-stage weapon lifted off at 5:26 a.m. in the middle of the six-hour launch window that opened at 3:26 a.m.

Vandenberg Public Affairs officials refused to answer any questions, referring queries to Air Force Global Strike Command representatives in Louisiana.

Global Strike Command oversees Air Force's air-launched and ground-based nuclear weapon systems.

"Test launches provide valuable data for U.S. Strategic Command and the U.S. Air Force," Linda Frost, Global Strike Command representative, told Noozhawk. "A reliable test launch occurs when a test missile launches, completes its flight path within a designated safety corridor, the equipment functions properly, sensor data is collected, and the test reentry vehicle impacts where targeted. Though the reentry vehicle reached its intended target, the test and analysis data is not releasable to the public."

Both before and after the test, Vandenberg and Global Strike Command Public Affairs representatives were unusually mum about the mission. The military social media and websites did not include the usual post-launch announcements of the test, although the Air Force released one photo and an edited video to the launch.


 
The silence apparently can be attributed to a service-wide timeout period that has prompted a freeze on public outreach until staff undergoes retraining amid concerns more secrecy is needed even about unclassified information, a story in Defense News said.

Vandenberg’s high-profile Mars InSight spacecraft, set to head to space aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket on May 5, is not affected by public affairs freeze since it’s a mission for NASA.

The military routinely conducts Minuteman III test launches from Vandenberg to gather data about the weapon system’s accuracy and reliability. In the past, Air Force officials has said the tests also serve as a deterrent to the nation's foes.

The tests typically occur a few times a year from Vandenberg and include a task force from the weapon’s home base.

Approximately 400 Minuteman weapons sit on alert around F.E. Warren AFB, Wyoming; Minot AFB, South Dakota, and Malmstrom AFB, Montana.

The last Minuteman test occurred in August, but another planned for February was mysteriously canceled after Vandenberg Public Affairs staff sent out a press release announcing the mission but never followed up to say it would not happen. It’s believed the test was canceled due to a truce declared for the Olympic Games held in South Korea.

Rick Wayman, director of programs for the Santa Barbara-based Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, said he was disappointed Wednesday's test occurred hours before the start of a peace summit between South Korea and North Korea.

“There’s certainly always an element, I think, with a lack of communication between the Air Force, the military at large and our diplomats,” Wayman said. “At such a sensitive time that we’re in right now in terms of peace negations with North Korea, I would have hoped for more sensitivity around this issue.”

Wayman is in Geneva for the United Nations for meetings on the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

"I always remain hopeful that diplomacy will prevail and that was what I was hoping for in this case," he said. "I was very disappointed that they did this. Of course, this doesn't mean the end of diplomacy in the Korea issue, but I feel like it's a blow, I feel like this situation would have been better off had we refrained."

— Noozhawk North County editor Janene Scully can be reached at [email protected]. Follow Noozhawk on Twitter: @noozhawk, @NoozhawkNews and @NoozhawkBiz. Connect with Noozhawk on Facebook.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2018, 03:33:05 AM
SO this is probably international measuring-contest stuff?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on April 26, 2018, 03:34:43 AM
Kim cancels test in good faith for olympics:  We follow suit. 

Kim cancels test in good faith for peace talks:  We launch anyway hours before talks start. 

Draw your own conclusions. 
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2018, 03:36:09 AM
I wanna make a joke about it not being Kim with tiny hands...
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 26, 2018, 06:15:01 AM
My conclusion is that Bolton doesn't want peace.  Well, I guess that merely supports what I already know/believe. I'm forgetting the "never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity alone " maxim.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: E_T on April 26, 2018, 09:09:47 PM
Yes, true, but in this case....
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Green1 on April 26, 2018, 10:15:03 PM
A missile test is not provocation by itself. There are uses ranging from defense, communications, learning, employing your smarter people so they don't leave you, and space exploration if you get good enough.

But, it is provocation if you are putting out propaganda and having your kids scream "death to whatever" while doing so.

It would be like someone taking a dagger and stabbing a picture of someone while yelling, "I hate you! I hate you! Die! Die! Die!"

Now yes, that person may have legit uses for a dagger. It cuts boxes, can be used for hunting, or possibly used if someone breaks in the house. But, if that person is screaming hate while wielding the dagger and practicing while yelling your name hatefully mentally preparing themselves if they decide to stab you....

Well, you may want to consider separating such a person from that weapon. Or at least not be in a place that contains you, that person, and said dagger.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Unorthodox on May 14, 2018, 08:19:28 PM
! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNotuPK-uzs#)
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: bvanevery on May 25, 2018, 02:33:29 PM
But, it is provocation if you are putting out propaganda and having your kids scream "death to whatever" while doing so.

What if you don't do any of that?  Indeed if you claim in Soviet Doublespeak style, "this is no threat at all" ?  Are there facts on the ground that preclude anyone accepting a government's say-so at face value?

c.f. "Our nuclear enrichment is for peaceful purposes."
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Bearu on May 26, 2018, 05:14:42 AM
A C.P. line argues the missile tests of these countries represent the necessary defense of the countries from the provocative actions of aggressive foreign powers. The modern world allows these foreign powers to tear a country into a tiny shred of its former self through the inclusion of violence and instability into the country. The presence of the provocative rhetoric from the hostile foreign powers demonstrate the important defensive influence of missiles from the destruction of regime change proposals seen in the 1983 invasion of Granada through the numerous attempts on the life of Fidel Castro into the recent murder and destruction of Muammar Gaddafi and Libya. I stand in solidarity with the countries, despite disagreements on specific ideological issues, to defend the nation from the aggressive intervention of a foreign entity while the foreign entity describes the missile tests as an "aggressive" action
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Green1 on May 26, 2018, 06:38:09 AM
Well.. heres the thing, Bvanevery... It works both ways.

Example:

Nearest convention to me is Coast Con in Biloxi, MS. Nevermind New Orleans is a more populated town.. the hotel rents are sky high because it is touristy.

You know what the problem with CoastCon is? Every year it is different.

One year, one group is in, the next year another is. There is no telling if what brought you there last year will be there the next depending on what power struggles exist.

So, it's impossible to make a deal with them.

Same with the US. You get a deal, the next administration has different ideas. Can you make a deal with that?

Or continue reciting "death to America" to keep your power because you (should) outlive many presidents?
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: bvanevery on May 26, 2018, 03:35:55 PM
I stand in solidarity with the countries, despite disagreements on specific ideological issues, to defend the nation from the aggressive intervention of a foreign entity while the foreign entity describes the missile tests as an "aggressive" action

I'm currently reading Mao: The Unknown Story (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao%3A_The_Unknown_Story), 2005.  It's pretty illuminating about what "Communism" is.  Mainly it's killing people who don't obey, and also killing lots of people who do obey, because leaders are interested in personal power.  North Korea is run by a violent, oppressive despot, it's that simple.  I'll wager that you'll find very little Communism or Socialism if you stare at it in detail.  I haven't done that exercise wtih North Korea yet.  I'm doing it for Mao's China, which was mostly the product of Stalin's Russia, and I see no reason why the North Korean story will be any different.

What you are defending, is the principle that a warlord should be defending himself.  If you think you are in solidarity with any other principle, you are mistaken.  Framing it as Capitalism vs. Communism etc. is a joke.  To this I say simply, yes, warlords try to defend themselves.  And foreign powers try to constrain rogue nations.  Such is the way of the world.

Green1: deals last until they don't.  Consider how stable US - Cuba relations were, for decades.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Bearu on May 26, 2018, 10:53:26 PM
Quote
"It's pretty illuminating about what "Communism" is.  Mainly it's killing people who don't obey, and also killing lots of people who do obey, because leaders are interested in personal power.  North Korea is run by a violent, oppressive despot, it's that simple.  I'll wager that you'll find very little Communism or Socialism if you stare at it in detail. "
    I hear echoes of a predetermined position on the issue. If you want to discuss the topic, then the removal and identification of preconceptions remain a necessary component of the discussion.
    The breadth of the communist and socialist movements extends into a diverse range of fields, and the framing of ideology in the terms of Maoism and Mao Zedong thought represents a singular portion of the movements. The breadth of socialist and communist thoughts extends from the left wing communist movements  of Luxembourgism and trade syndicalists into the right wing communist movements of Stalinism through the fusion of communism into the nationalist ideologies of groups like the Khmer Rouge.
    Your  interpretation of the ideology in the above statement also fails to consider both the horrendous conditions of places like China before the Chinese revolution and civil war and the sometimes remarkable improvements in the living conditions, health, and social indicators of the countries in the years after the revolutions. The premier concern of the socialist policies focus on the inability of Capitalism to provide a stable social network for the health, wealth, and living conditions of the citizens without the drastic damage of the economic system in terms of cyclical depressions, exploitation, and occupation of foreign lands.
   
Quote
"I haven't done that exercise wtih[sic] North Korea yet.  I'm doing it for Mao's China, which was mostly the product of Stalin's Russia, and I see no reason why the North Korean story will be any different."
     The actions of Mao in China derive from the conditions of the country in the periods before the final revolution while the country resided in a semi feudalistic conditions with the powers of Britain, France, USA, and Russia wanting to divide the country into a pie for economic resources starting with the Opium War in the 1840's. The country experienced a dramatic growth of brutal warlords, political intrigue, and damage from the royalists with the progressive weakening of the Qing Dynasty in the period after 1840 through the final collapse of the Dynasty in 1912. Does a revolution ever represent a nice and peaceful task like writing an essay or embroidering a piece of silk? The answer remains a resounding no, and the ability to comprehend the necessity of the actions of the dictatorships in the periods around the periods of war represents a critical component of political education.
     The current ideology of Juche developed in the 1970's after a schism between the development of Dengism in China and the developments of Khrushchev in the early 1960's. The majority of North Korean policy from the 1970's  period forward results from the isolationist policies of the country beyond the assistance of Russia after the expulsion of Nikita Khrushchev.
Quote
"What you are defending, is the principle that a warlord should be defending himself.  If you think you are in solidarity with any other principle, you are mistaken.  Framing it as Capitalism vs. Communism etc. is a joke.  To this I say simply, yes, warlords try to defend themselves.  And foreign powers try to constrain rogue nations.  Such is the way of the world."
     What makes the right of a country to stifle the self determination of another country against the security weaker nation? Does the statement condone the animalistic philosophy of "Might makes right? Does the final statement condone a fatalist attitude of "oh well, the stronger nation wants to pillage and plunder the land, and we should accept the action as an acceptable concept?" The notion represents a disgusting concept, and the action of the violence represents an expanding factor in many poor communities. What good does a supposed liberty provide beyond an analgesic for the  conscience of wealthy people while an unsustainable economic system brutalizes the populations of other countries in the world for the acquisition of economic and financial resources ?
     I recommend the opening of a new topic to cover the discussion.

Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: Lorizael on May 26, 2018, 11:40:35 PM
Does a revolution ever represent a nice and peaceful task like writing an essay or embroidering a piece of silk? The answer remains a resounding no, and the ability to comprehend the necessity of the actions of the dictatorships in the periods around the periods of war represents a critical component of political education.

Gandhi's words weren't actually backed with nuclear weapons.
Title: Re: Is a missile test a provocative action?
Post by: bvanevery on May 28, 2018, 01:51:14 AM
The premier concern of the socialist policies focus on the inability of Capitalism to provide a stable social network for the health, wealth, and living conditions of the citizens without the drastic damage of the economic system in terms of cyclical depressions, exploitation, and occupation of foreign lands.

If the author's claim of 70 million Chinese dead under Mao can be substantiated, such complaints about Capitalism are specious by comparison.

Quote
The actions of Mao in China derive from the conditions of the country in the periods before the final revolution while the country resided in a semi feudalistic conditions with the powers of Britain, France, USA, and Russia wanting to divide the country into a pie for economic resources starting with the Opium War in the 1840's.

Er, and from Mao deciding he was going to seize personal power by killing, torturing, and terrorizing millions of people.  To be sure, he had a few competitors willing to do the same things.

Quote
and the ability to comprehend the necessity of the actions of the dictatorships in the periods around the periods of war represents a critical component of political education.

"Necessity".  I think you could conveniently explain away any moral stance or action with such a word.

Quote
What makes the right of a country to stifle the self determination of another country against the security weaker nation?

It depends a lot on what you're willing to excuse as "necessity".

Quote
and the action of the violence represents an expanding factor in many poor communities.

Newflash: Mao was quite violent to the poor, when creating his regime.
Templates: 1: Printpage (default).
Sub templates: 4: init, print_above, main, print_below.
Language files: 4: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 31 - 840KB. (show)
Queries used: 17.

[Show Queries]