Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: Mart on March 17, 2016, 09:39:34 PM

Title: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 17, 2016, 09:39:34 PM
After it turns out, that we can easily play MP games with altered alphax.txt file, thus having changed ruleset, I think having some rebalancing mod for better (as much as one can say that, it depends on what a person likes) gameplay.

For now, this would be in testing, but some of these things come from "Unity Mod" that I already tried long ago, though they were different, but many changes are similar.

Changes already in testing:
1) Colony module cost increased. The basic one costs 15 rows. It is 5 times more. This will make bases more important, and possibly players will care for their safety more.
2) Supply crawlers changed in a lot of small ways:
-- more expensive, the basic one is now for 12 rows. This will decrease their "avalanche" impact.
-- the package is now from Industrial Robotics, though:
-- from Industrial automation pre-defined unit is possible. There are also 2 more land designs with armor at MindMachine and Silksteel, and a trawler at Doc Initiative.
3) Cloudbase Academy moved to Graviton Theory, cost doubled.
4) Research rate slowed to 50%
5) Each faction gets 2 research points per base
6) Vanila factions get 2 more colony pods at start
7) Expansion factions get 1 more colony pod and 300 EC (to compensate)

Changes in consideration:
x1) Increased movement along roads to 5.

Any thoughts/comments?
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: MercantileInterest on March 17, 2016, 10:45:00 PM
Could you clarify why you slowed the research rate? Why did you choose it over the tech stagnation option?
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 17, 2016, 11:43:06 PM
Could you clarify why you slowed the research rate? Why did you choose it over the tech stagnation option?
It's different, as I recall. Tech stagnation does not make things exactly twice more expensive. Rate 50% of normal is like that.
And this is to really do that: to slow research. Rarely players choose tech stagnation option. Now if the want, they can even choose more slower rate. Both 50% and tech stag.

Research rate in late game is too fast, so this will make things last longer in late game.
Giving bases 2 lab points each base helps in early turns. It has less meaning later.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Eadee on March 18, 2016, 10:46:17 AM
I like the idea of more expensive colony pods and 2 additional pods at start to make people care more about their cities instead of just spamming colonypods all the time. However if you start with 3 colonypods and one single scout patrol you have a pretty hard time using those pods early. I'd add the same number of scout patrols to speed up the start a bit.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Nexii on March 18, 2016, 11:28:01 AM
I found that expensive pods kind of only add to RNG.  Having a base or a pod killed by a roaming MW would be devastating.

I more favor nerfing down sea terraforming make land more valuable.  A good way to slow down the later game is ecodamage IMO
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 18, 2016, 01:17:16 PM
I like the idea of more expensive colony pods and 2 additional pods at start to make people care more about their cities instead of just spamming colonypods all the time. However if you start with 3 colonypods and one single scout patrol you have a pretty hard time using those pods early. I'd add the same number of scout patrols to speed up the start a bit.

The UNIT bonus is limited (only 8 allowed per faction). So 2 cp in original 7 factions is possible. And no more units. Geo knows a way, but it will be with his next mod.
For now, a player can make several scouts in game, it is somewhat easier when you get 10 mins instantly.

Also, mw are not very often met in the first 20 turns, and they are weaker.

I found that expensive pods kind of only add to RNG.  Having a base or a pod killed by a roaming MW would be devastating.

I more favor nerfing down sea terraforming make land more valuable.  A good way to slow down the later game is ecodamage IMO
It is true, that loosing a cp from that starting pool is devastating, but the point is, that player is supposed to guard them well. Even when they cost 3 rows, such a loss is significant too, it is a matter of time also, in turns number, that you have to loose for getting another one.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 18, 2016, 01:33:06 PM
But also, notice one thing about ecodamge - planetpearls provide huge amounts of energy. So someone can have a strategy to harvest multiple mw for large energy incomes. With decent former army, removing fungus would be not that difficult. I have seen it in game, someone did it in multiplayer.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Nexii on March 18, 2016, 01:50:51 PM
Yea planetpearls are not really good to have on either.  They make ecodamage a good thing when it shouldn't be.
It's not just the removing fungus, it's the lost formers/military/terraformed improvements.  It adds up a lot if you make ecodamage relevant.  As well lost bases but thats rarer.

I had a thought that pods perhaps should have scaled up in cost the more bases+pods you have.  But that'd require exe modding most likely.  I guess I just think 150 minerals for base #3, #4 is a bit excessive.  For bases #10-12 that might be okay.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 18, 2016, 02:47:13 PM
Yes, when I play it, it can be noticed, that after first 4 bases (4 cp at start) fifth and several further cp are "hard to get"
But overall, it is not that difficult:
- since cp are expensive, you start them later, when your bases are bigger. So often you have around 10 minerals per turn in a base, what gives you approx. 15 turns to complete a cp. It is not that bad.
- you plan better for a new base, having better scouted terrain, terraformed, maybe a sensor underneath, etc.
- AI gets benefit, as it has lowered cost, it can get some cp more turns before a human player. And aiding AI is a good thing, making them more challenging.

The bigger problem though is crappy map generation and very often placing factions on smaller islands, where there is no room for 4 bases. And this hurts, mostly AI.
And for MP-self-generated, it would make game unplayable.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 18, 2016, 03:01:29 PM
Ok, for the defensive purposes, and to aid AI, the starting cp would be something like this:
Code: [Select]
Unity Escape Pod,       Infantry, Colony Pod,   Scout,      8, 1, 0, Disable, -1, 00000100001000000000000000000
They get both trance ability and slow to make it unique.
Forced to cost of 1 row, but disabled (cannot be built). It will prevent players to add them to early Secret projects for example.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Dio on March 18, 2016, 03:41:38 PM
After it turns out, that we can easily play MP games with altered alphax.txt file, thus having changed ruleset, I think having some rebalancing mod for better (as much as one can say that, it depends on what a person likes) gameplay.

For now, this would be in testing, but some of these things come from "Unity Mod" that I already tried long ago, though they were different, but many changes are similar.

Changes already in testing:
1) Colony module cost increased. The basic one costs 15 rows. It is 5 times more. This will make bases more important, and possibly players will care for their safety more.
2) Supply crawlers changed in a lot of small ways:
-- more expensive, the basic one is now for 12 rows. This will decrease their "avalanche" impact.
-- the package is now from Industrial Robotics, though:
-- from Industrial automation pre-defined unit is possible. There are also 2 more land designs with armor at MindMachine and Silksteel, and a trawler at Doc Initiative.
3) Cloudbase Academy moved to Graviton Theory, cost doubled.
4) Research rate slowed to 50%
5) Each faction gets 2 research points per base
6) Vanila factions get 2 more colony pods at start
7) Expansion factions get 1 more colony pod and 300 EC (to compensate)

Changes in consideration:
x1) Increased movement along roads to 5.

Any thoughts/comments?
How does the increased cost of colony pods impact the expansion of the AI in multiplayer games?
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 18, 2016, 06:46:39 PM
They perform pretty well in SP. No MP games yet.
Costs for AI are lower, so this is where they get even larger benefit. I noticed, they often can have more bases than human player at a given turn in early game. The problem is also that game starts factions on smaller islands, no room for 4 bases.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 19, 2016, 01:30:10 PM
So playing a testing game, singleplayer, with changed rules. For decent starting positions, I chose huge map of planet.
It is 2130 and I have contact and pact with Gaians (playing as PK).

With 6 techs, I have labs cost 289, 18/turn, 17 turns breakthroughs.
started WP SP, no cp yet. 4 bases.

Gaians meanwhile established all 4 bases, they have already 1 cp more and building 2 more.
However, their cost is 105 and not 150. Having 70% mineral cost helps them 45 minerals on each cp. This helps AI compared to human player. Game is more challenging.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 19, 2016, 04:15:52 PM
2189, PK (human) is 7 bases at vendetta with Spartans who have 4 original bases and 1 from Gaians.
Gaians are down to 2 bases and just hang there at pact with PK, but Spartans no longer threaten them.
Morgan has 5 bases, more?
Hive and Believers seem to do also very well, but having no infiltration.
But the best is, that Morgan asked 325 EC for Gene Splicing! That is something good, not that 125 EC or usually 100 EC.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 19, 2016, 04:37:31 PM
2193, elected Planetary Governor.
Gaians 2 bases
Hive 7 bases
Univ 6 bases
Morgan 5
Sparta 5
Believers 7
PK 7 bases (human player)
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 19, 2016, 10:33:09 PM
Well... there is a problem though.
Crawlers can be reverse-engineered. So it is possible to build even very expensive ones with Industrial Automation.
For now, the only solution seems to be "no reverse-engineering of crawlers before Industrial Robotics" rule.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 20, 2016, 09:26:02 PM
For new iteration of the mod, I am thinking about giving all factions just 1 additional cp and then all factions would start with basic 350 EC.
Morgan would get not 100 additional, but 250 EC. This is to make that EC count. But that would be for testing, if this is about right amount.
This way all factions would be altered the same way.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 21, 2016, 05:25:22 PM
Or maybe somewhat different approach. All factions get the same:
- one additional colony pod.
- 200 EC starting energy.
-- Morgans get additional 200 EC (not 100).

This 200 EC will not be sufficient to buy a cp early, but will definitely help to develop faster. Larger energy will be somewhat game experience changing, but maybe not that much as other changes.

Strategies will have to be adjusted for these changes. I wonder how much.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Yitzi on March 27, 2016, 05:45:14 PM
Expensive-for-the-early-game colony pods weaken  ;miriam; even further, though...since she doesn't really have anything else to build that early.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 27, 2016, 06:25:29 PM
She might receive extra energy to compensate lost lab points for the first 10 turns.

Miriam's "flavour" is slow research. On the other hand, she has excellent support and can do a lot of exploration on land building military in the time before catching up with some techs.

Next testing scenario will be Miriam then.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Nexii on March 29, 2016, 05:25:08 PM
Also in addition to what Yitzi pointed out, SUP is also stronger the more bases you build.  With fewer bases the free maintenance becomes less valuable.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Yitzi on March 29, 2016, 08:48:53 PM
Also in addition to what Yitzi pointed out, SUP is also stronger the more bases you build.  With fewer bases the free maintenance becomes less valuable.

And +3 PROBE is also much stronger for an expansionist (as far-away-from-HQ bases are cheaper to MC).

I wonder if (despite requiring .exe modding) a better solution to the "not caring about overrun bases" problem would be to make it so that losing population to mind worms causes extra drones temporarily...
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on March 29, 2016, 09:15:35 PM
Also in addition to what Yitzi pointed out, SUP is also stronger the more bases you build.  With fewer bases the free maintenance becomes less valuable.
Support is balanced, since your opponents also build less bases, or maybe saying differently: there is a lag in AI factions achieving large number of bases.
From what I saw so far, Hive has no problem to reach over 10 bases after 120 turns on huge map. Believers are the same.
AI very often builds colony pods even if they are very costly. But with AI bonyses, their cost is like 75-90 minerals. Running planned and wealth with average faction (having no industry bonus) cost for human player is 120 minerals.

Now, when humans play these factions with these new rules, that may be different.
And there is also something else. Starting with 4 colony pods, as PK I was able to pop boom to size 9 when having just only 4-5 bases. I noticed, since game last longer (50% research rate) bases rather quickly pop boom compared to spread horizontally. Building a colony pod of cost 150 in a base of size 7-9 is not 5 times longer compared to building cp costing 30 minerals in a base of size 2. And such "colony pod pumps" of size 2 is a typical case in regular ruleset.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 05, 2016, 05:34:09 PM
...
Next testing scenario will be Miriam then.
Started several games ( and abandoned after some turns) to see how Miriam is working under these new rules.
This is not the best strategy, I guess, but it worked for me:

Having 3 cp at start, 260EC, and a scout. Sometimes a unity foil was thrown in for small island bonus.
On huge map, after initial 10 turns of no lab points, the first tech could be researched after 12 mostly turns. This is without trading other techs that would bring the cost up before this.
So around 2122 Centauri Ecology is available. Formers... and all that stuff.

What to do for 22 turns?
Miriam can have 4 units free in each base. The hq can build right away, typically 2 or 3 scouts. The other 2 bases take some time to travel to their location, it can be even 8-10 turns, especially when someone plays builder style and wants to put more space between bases.
On could make 4 scouts, but this would start to drain minerals when formers come around. After 2 scouts, I started Recreation Commons. Since we do not build new cp that often now, bases grow vertically sooner, so these are very much needed.
This is strength of Miriam, she can more easily deal with such problems of population 3-4.
These 3 additional (not garrisoned) scouts bring also additional energy from planetpearls, pop unity pods. And here is the thing:
- in bases with pop 2 or more, one can pop a mineral pod and have these 150 minerals giving a new cp (fourth, ...)

AI is really doing excellent. Their ability to keep collected minerals pays off. E.g. they loose an SP, no problem. All minerals can go to get a cp quickly.
Often AI has more bases than me. But I get all SPs I can, so maybe this is why. While AI pushes for colony pods, I get SPs. But if I did not build SPs, probably AI would be around equal in number of bases. Growth bonuses count more, this is due to higher cp cost. Just all these differences of +Industry count 5 times more. (150 cost versus 30).
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 06, 2016, 10:39:34 AM
Crawlers trick is a good one. AI instabuilds SPs. Morgan having 3 supply droids (pre-defined 120 mineral base cost crawler at Industrial automation) added them in one turn to Cyborg Factory!
One turn he is  around 100/180 (7 turns remaining) and another turn he is 490/200.
I probed him (as Miriam) a turn before, but got Fusion Power and not MMI. So he will have that SP for now.

Interesting is, that AI somehow builds these expensive crawlers more than I suspected.
Morgan after cashing these 3 is making another one. Lal is having one.

=====
And adding this for record:
- Apparently helping SP builds is the main reason of getting crawlers by AI. Morgan resigned from the next one, once not building an SP. And I noticed here, the same as in other games for years so far, AI crawlers rather do not get resources. They just wonder around or simply stay idle.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Yitzi on April 07, 2016, 11:04:19 PM
...
Next testing scenario will be Miriam then.
Started several games ( and abandoned after some turns) to see how Miriam is working under these new rules.
This is not the best strategy, I guess, but it worked for me:

Having 3 cp at start, 260EC, and a scout. Sometimes a unity foil was thrown in for small island bonus.
On huge map, after initial 10 turns of no lab points, the first tech could be researched after 12 mostly turns. This is without trading other techs that would bring the cost up before this.
So around 2122 Centauri Ecology is available. Formers... and all that stuff.

What to do for 22 turns?
Miriam can have 4 units free in each base. The hq can build right away, typically 2 or 3 scouts. The other 2 bases take some time to travel to their location, it can be even 8-10 turns, especially when someone plays builder style and wants to put more space between bases.
On could make 4 scouts, but this would start to drain minerals when formers come around. After 2 scouts, I started Recreation Commons. Since we do not build new cp that often now, bases grow vertically sooner, so these are very much needed.
This is strength of Miriam, she can more easily deal with such problems of population 3-4.
These 3 additional (not garrisoned) scouts bring also additional energy from planetpearls, pop unity pods. And here is the thing:
- in bases with pop 2 or more, one can pop a mineral pod and have these 150 minerals giving a new cp (fourth, ...)

Good points.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Nexii on April 17, 2016, 07:28:34 PM
Also in addition to what Yitzi pointed out, SUP is also stronger the more bases you build.  With fewer bases the free maintenance becomes less valuable.

And +3 PROBE is also much stronger for an expansionist (as far-away-from-HQ bases are cheaper to MC).

I wonder if (despite requiring .exe modding) a better solution to the "not caring about overrun bases" problem would be to make it so that losing population to mind worms causes extra drones temporarily...

Maybe a simpler mod would be to allow native life to kill more than 1 pop per attack, or destroy more improvements?  Just some thoughts
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 17, 2016, 10:54:49 PM
I think it is a question of players taking risks. And players will take risks, though I agree, that if a chance of loosing a base completely when you leave it empty would be 70% or 90%, probably everyone would avoid it. With standard rules, in the first 20 turns, people often leave a base empty of size 1. There is a chance, especially when you are next to a fungus tile, that mw gets it, but the chance is small.

I have a game of these rules with over 200 turns now. Later this large cost of colony pods is not noticeable almost, when your bases have 50 or 70 minerals per turn production.
However in general, this allows to get to this stage of the game at all, I think. I need to test it on standard size map though.

Meanwhile, I got other observations and intend to test these:
- Breaking second pop limit earlier. Maybe Silksteel Alloys. It is right after Ind Auto in the tree.
These limits of pop are actually pro-micromanagement. They force you to spread/spam new bases instead of developing existing ones. So this would most likely help.
They are strongly in the original ruleset, we are so much used to it, Morgans and PK have even parameters with it. The game would not be the same without it. So they need to be there. But I think the second limit must be broken right after the first one. And even more drastic change would be giving Habitation domes with Ind Auto too. Maybe this is a better way. After all, you need to make this expensive facility, so this is effort, that only in case of significant nutrients increase will be started.
- Giving something to optical computers. Hologram theaters.
I thought about it, and really there is no other thing influencing the game little. Presently, Holo theaters are rarely build right with Planetary Networks. They are expensive (compared to other facilities costing 1/turn), so often players get it later anyway, I think.
- More drones. This one is BIG one.
Each faction gets as standard: DRONE, 4
Univ gets DRONE, 3 because they have with parameter 4 from the start, so they are getting only somewhat more.
Why such thing? To force a player to devote more energy to psych. But AI needs to be tested on this one.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Dio on April 17, 2016, 11:00:32 PM
I think it is a question of players taking risks. And players will take risks, though I agree, that if a chance of loosing a base completely when you leave it empty would be 70% or 90%, probably everyone would avoid it. With standard rules, in the first 20 turns, people often leave a base empty of size 1. There is a chance, especially when you are next to a fungus tile, that mw gets it, but the chance is small.

I have a game of these rules with over 200 turns now. Later this large cost of colony pods is not noticeable almost, when your bases have 50 or 70 minerals per turn production.
However in general, this allows to get to this stage of the game at all, I think. I need to test it on standard size map though.

Meanwhile, I got other observations and intend to test these:
- Breaking second pop limit earlier. Maybe Silksteel Alloys. It is right after Ind Auto in the tree.
These limits of pop are actually pro-micromanagement. They force you to spread/spam new bases instead of developing existing ones. So this would most likely help.
They are strongly in the original ruleset, we are so much used to it, Morgans and PK have even parameters with it. The game would not be the same without it. So they need to be there. But I think the second limit must be broken right after the first one. And even more drastic change would be giving Habitation domes with Ind Auto too. Maybe this is a better way. After all, you need to make this expensive facility, so this is effort, that only in case of significant nutrients increase will be started.
- Giving something to optical computers. Hologram theaters.
I thought about it, and really there is no other thing influencing the game little. Presently, Holo theaters are rarely build right with Planetary Networks. They are expensive (compared to other facilities costing 1/turn), so often players get it later anyway, I think.
- More drones. This one is BIG one.
Each faction gets as standard: DRONE, 4
Univ gets DRONE, 3 because they have with parameter 4 from the start, so they are getting only somewhat more.
Why such thing? To force a player to devote more energy to psych. But AI needs to be tested on this one.
How about the inclusion of negative TALENT in the place of negative POLICE for certain social models? I currently have Cybernetic at -3 TALENT instead of -3 POLICE because it allows the factions time to develop countermeasures without severe complications. I also made Optical Computers the prerequisite technology for the Virtual World. I also made the following changes for Technology:
1. Advanced Military Algorithms require Polymorphic Software instead of Optical Computers.
2. Optical Computers requires Planetary Networks instead of Polymorphic Software.
3. Cyberethics requires Optical Computers instead of Planetary Networks.
4. Synthetic Fossil Fuels require Advanced Subatomic Theory instead of High Energy Chemistry.
5. Superconductors require High Energy Chemistry instead of Industrial Base.
6. Doctrine: Air Power requires Doctrine: Initiative instead of Doctrine: Flexibilty.
7. Doctrine: Flexibility provides sea formers and the Naval Yard facility. I also set the technology prerequisites of basic land terraforming operations (road, farm, mine, solar array, sensor, remove fungus, and forest) onto Centauri Ecology while Doctrine: Flexibility allows the construction of Kelp Farms, Mining Platforms and Tidal Harnesses. The above technology prerequisites allows the establishment of sea terraformers as a predesigned unit for Doctrine: Flexibility without the potential abuse of reverse engineering land terraformers beyond the construction of the units before Centauri Ecology.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 17, 2016, 11:39:22 PM
I have to think about these changes.
Lack of police is in later game easily counter-measured with increased psych allocation.

Virtual World, yes, I thought about it. Good solution, though more "game changing" as players often start this SP with Planetary Networks. So game strategy would be influenced more.

Tech tree changes.
Some of them are very tempting to do. So far, I thought about leaving the tech tree as it is. Less influencing the standard game. But some techs are just asking to be made the way you write. E.g. Air Power after Initiative.

Let me think about it all.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 18, 2016, 01:56:35 AM
Trying most of the changes you wrote.
- Naval Yards, good idea, they are with foils. After all, simpler foil ships bases can be considered naval too.
- Tech changes included as you have them. Though Holo theaters and Virtual World stay as I initially had.
- Formers stay as they were, I think earlier formers is a good thing. AI could build more of them.

I will put 4 new pre-designed formers.
And one more thing:
- Aerospace Complex available from Synth. Fossil Fuels.
This tech is suggesting rockets, so we can consider facilities that make them/test them as early airfields.
Cost of Aerospace Cmplx 2 rows! And upkeep 0.
Cloudbase Academy returns to MMI. Cost somewhat increased to 40 rows.
AI will benefit greatly.
For human players, this will help a lot to destroy "chop'n'drop" strategy. I hope.

I am also thinking about turning all of the Yitzi drone additional features, however, rule 8 is something quite game changing. The strategy of bases with all-specialists will not work.
Luckily, rule 1 helps with pacifism drones.
Additional drones change drone management anyway, so why not have these extreme drone rules here too.
Rule 32 is helping in return.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Dio on April 18, 2016, 02:46:23 AM
I have to think about these changes.
Lack of police is in later game easily counter-measured with increased psych allocation.

Virtual World, yes, I thought about it. Good solution, though more "game changing" as players often start this SP with Planetary Networks. So game strategy would be influenced more.

Tech tree changes.
Some of them are very tempting to do. So far, I thought about leaving the tech tree as it is. Less influencing the standard game. But some techs are just asking to be made the way you write. E.g. Air Power after Initiative.

Let me think about it all.
I understand the counteraction of police with psych allocations later in the game, but the -3 TALENT certainly makes golden ages harder on higher difficulties even with higher psych energy allocations.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Dio on April 18, 2016, 02:50:33 AM
Trying most of the changes you wrote.
- Naval Yards, good idea, they are with foils. After all, simpler foil ships bases can be considered naval too.
- Tech changes included as you have them. Though Holo theaters and Virtual World stay as I initially had.
- Formers stay as they were, I think earlier formers is a good thing. AI could build more of them.

I will put 4 new pre-designed formers.
And one more thing:
- Aerospace Complex available from Synth. Fossil Fuels.
This tech is suggesting rockets, so we can consider facilities that make them/test them as early airfields.
Cost of Aerospace Cmplx 2 rows! And upkeep 0.
Cloudbase Academy returns to MMI. Cost somewhat increased to 40 rows.
AI will benefit greatly.
For human players, this will help a lot to destroy "chop'n'drop" strategy. I hope.

I am also thinking about turning all of the Yitzi drone additional features, however, rule 8 is something quite game changing. The strategy of bases with all-specialists will not work.
Luckily, rule 1 helps with pacifism drones.
Additional drones change drone management anyway, so why not have these extreme drone rules here too.
Rule 32 is helping in return.
I would remain careful with the over improvement of physical aircraft at the detriment of PSI as a viable option. I know that AAA tracking, Aerospace Complexes, and Hypontic all defend against Aerial PSI Assaults. I also moved PSI Defense from Eudaimonia onto Centauri Psi.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Dio on April 18, 2016, 02:53:37 AM
Trying most of the changes you wrote.
- Naval Yards, good idea, they are with foils. After all, simpler foil ships bases can be considered naval too.
- Tech changes included as you have them. Though Holo theaters and Virtual World stay as I initially had.
- Formers stay as they were, I think earlier formers is a good thing. AI could build more of them.

I will put 4 new pre-designed formers.
And one more thing:
- Aerospace Complex available from Synth. Fossil Fuels.
This tech is suggesting rockets, so we can consider facilities that make them/test them as early airfields.
Cost of Aerospace Cmplx 2 rows! And upkeep 0.
Cloudbase Academy returns to MMI. Cost somewhat increased to 40 rows.
AI will benefit greatly.
For human players, this will help a lot to destroy "chop'n'drop" strategy. I hope.

I am also thinking about turning all of the Yitzi drone additional features, however, rule 8 is something quite game changing. The strategy of bases with all-specialists will not work.
Luckily, rule 1 helps with pacifism drones.
Additional drones change drone management anyway, so why not have these extreme drone rules here too.
Rule 32 is helping in return.
I also know that the replacement of Polymorphic Software for Optical Computers as a technology rerequisite of Advanced Military Algorithms makes it easier for the majority of factions to reach the Power Social Model.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2016, 05:55:01 AM
I was thinking a lot about what this mod is trying to accomplish.  More or less what we all are, a game that's challenging throughout.  I came to realize that no matter how much you mod the game (to suit the AI's playstyle) or improve the AI (this is complex, and huge improvements aren't likely) that the AI will play worse the longer the game goes on.  Right now it's common for a human player to just expand, and out-produce the AI in the mid-game.  Why is this?  Well simply, there are more strategic options available and more ways to not play 'optimally'.  The big ones for AI we know, how it manages military, the underemphasis on terraforming and tech, over-aggression when not having a large military.  Here's my idea: Make the % boosts for AI (on higher difficulties) start weaker but get much stronger as the game goes on. Simple as that, I think tweaking this early game stuff can only make the game worse in some ways.  Already how I mod (fixing unit costs) can make starting near aggressive Spartans instant death.  Why?  Because +30% all around production is huge in a game with exponential growth.  There's no overcoming it no matter how well you play.

On the other topics:

- I would agree on the earlier Hab domes.  Maybe not as early as B4 but earlier than B8.  Enrichers should come later like around the 8th tier.  Perhaps even Condensors but with how WP works it would have to be placed later also.  But with ecodamage modded in, Condensors do cause a lot more ecodamage.

-On the topic of PSI, I play with 2:1 A:D for PSI combat for land, air, and sea.  It makes them viable for attack, and alien MWs more dangerous.  Yes they do get mopped up easily by mobile units, but can be paired with non-alien for defense.  I don't think 100% native life armies are really a good thing anyways since they let you tank MORALE SE at no penalty.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 18, 2016, 09:10:15 AM
Yes, the AI has difficulty to compete in mid-game anyway. However, I noticed, that in late mid-game or when late-game starts, after fusion reactor AI got singularity. Then suddenly Morgan (AI) got all his defense units singular equipped. Armor was 8, and many of his bases got <8> AAA units. My copters were not good, shard fusion ones. So I had to use infantry, and of course, using mag-tubes and elite infantry conquering a base was much easier. But then, all this effort caused me to just take his one base and then sign truce...

Mod objectives are not only more competitive/interesting AI, but also:
- have human players in MP to effectively compete in mid- and late-game.
Now, it is like around Air Power one human faction gets so much advantage, that mostly MP games end at this point.

Aerospace complexes are not intended to help physical air units. As human player rather has a chance to build them in bases with Aero. cmplx. anyway. Making this facility easy to get everywhere makes several things:
- defense is major point. Easy thing to have +100% air defense and no longer a base is so easy to get by copters or bombing needlejets. Human player not always can get rid of this facility in an easy way. E.g. there are several probe teams, so probe team action can be difficult to do. This is strongly to destroy "chop'n'drop."
- Cloudbase Academy can be used as it is in MMI tech. Since Aero. cmplx. is so easy to get in every base, this SP is nothing more than typical SP. Also due to 0 upkeep cost.
- Economy is more flattened out for human and AI, which can get it also everywhere. Satellites work with full benefits.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 18, 2016, 09:21:20 AM
Civ4 has this idea of a civ, that with several cities can effectively compete with an aggresive civ, that spreads wide on the map.
Having easier breaking of the second population limit and ability to grow bases to their maximum with abundant nutrients makes somewhat that. In this mod of smacx, you could have several bases with sizes well over 20, with lots of specialists providing a lot of economy and research.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Dio on April 18, 2016, 02:14:03 PM
Civ4 has this idea of a civ, that with several cities can effectively compete with an aggresive civ, that spreads wide on the map.
Having easier breaking of the second population limit and ability to grow bases to their maximum with abundant nutrients makes somewhat that. In this mod of smacx, you could have several bases with sizes well over 20, with lots of specialists providing a lot of economy and research.
I could see it providing a severe disadvantage for the factions that cannot population boom easily until after Hybrid Forests provide a sustainable source of nutrients for a base (i.e. Hive).
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 18, 2016, 02:40:12 PM
Ok, but nutrients can be obtained from farming, not necessarily all forests around is the best.
Hive has both +1 growth and +1 industry. Always some benefit to get things done sooner, like having enough formers, facilities, etc.

And always there is golden age. I agree, it requires energy, and Hive is not the best at it, but still, assigning psych can help here.
So +7 actually can be from:
+2 planned
+2 children creche
+2 golden age
+1 factional bonus
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Nexii on April 18, 2016, 10:25:14 PM
Civ4 has this idea of a civ, that with several cities can effectively compete with an aggresive civ, that spreads wide on the map.
Having easier breaking of the second population limit and ability to grow bases to their maximum with abundant nutrients makes somewhat that. In this mod of smacx, you could have several bases with sizes well over 20, with lots of specialists providing a lot of economy and research.

Although I would say also that land should be at a premium also.  Expanding leaves you more vulnerable.  It's why I don't like sea bases providing a lot of resources, or land raising.  It takes a lot away from the decisions of how to play each unique map.  As well a lot of vertical growth means there's less reason to fight over land. 

But it can also be argued that this isn't a big problem...size 14+ (20+) bases tend to need a lot of land squares for nutrients.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: thedarkestcolors on April 18, 2016, 11:55:05 PM
Ok, but nutrients can be obtained from farming, not necessarily all forests around is the best.
Hive has both +1 growth and +1 industry. Always some benefit to get things done sooner, like having enough formers, facilities, etc.

And always there is golden age. I agree, it requires energy, and Hive is not the best at it, but still, assigning psych can help here.
So +7 actually can be from:
+2 planned
+2 children creche
+2 golden age
+1 factional bonus
Obtaining a Golden Age means a big hit for income and research, esp. for the Hive with their neg. Economy -> cranking up psych will give an additional penalty for economy and research (starting at psych 20 if I remember correctly, and it prob. needs to go a lot higher for a GA in a reasonable amount of cities)
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 19, 2016, 09:20:05 PM
It is not easy for Hive to make GA, but possible. Costing a lot, that is true. Maybe making 90-100% psych for some short time... Sounds crazy? Maybe. But in order to achieve some effects drastic measures must be made.

Thinking about it all, I am more and more convinced, that what helps SMACX a lot is simple making it playing with more turns. Slowing research rate is one way. This makes especially AI better prepared to oppose human player. As for MP, on one side, we have longer "boring" period of building faction in the early-game often without contact. But then human players would be better prepared for conflicts, that would not end in fast take-over of one another.

Production is also important. More minerals is more units, greater capacity to upkeep them. So problem is:
Genejack factory at tech level 6.
Robotic Assembly level9?
Nanoreplicator ...
Quantum Converter level 12.

These are just too late. Rarely used.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 19, 2016, 09:50:30 PM
So I am thinking, that Genejack, Robotic Assembly and Nanorep. could stay with their corresponding technologies, and probably the easiest would be to move Quantum converter (as Workshop, a "new" facility) to some earlier technology. Revision of costs would be needed, but this is something I think worth trying.

Which technology then? I think the best would level 1 or 2, maybe 3, but this is already quite far away in the tree from game start.

- Industrial Automation is already overloaded with features.
- Industrial Base, too early?
- Industrial Economics. It already has Energy Bank, Free Market. Maybe Workshop would not make it overloaded.
- Progenitor Psych? It's social tech. although Aquafarm is just one of the most stupid addition of expansion at this tech.
- Field modulation? Not quite industrial Tech too. But it is only with 3r armor, so this line of techs would be more interesting to choose.
- other ...?

One more thing: Singularity Inductor SP gives this facility free. Powerful, maybe then it is good to leave it somewhere later in the tree. It would be still worth building for upkeep, ecology, I think.

=====
Workshop is in Industrial Base, so far. I think it is quite good place for it. Early, Industrial Base is not overly equipped with features with it.
Made cost 80 (8 rows) to build, same as Network Node, upkeep 4 though. Expensive, but it is powerful facility after all. It pays for itself already when a base makes 3-4 minerals from tiles.
Genejack, Robotic and Nanorep. made more expensive to compensate lowered cost of Workshop, compared to Quantum Converter.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 19, 2016, 11:36:52 PM
And maybe a note here on starting colony pods.
3 colony pods looks like sufficient number, however, working with 35% research rate! and with 3 additional lab points per base. During the game, it should be multiplied to 9, I believe? What with 3 times larger tech cost will make no real difference in late game, but has large effect in level 1 and 2 techs.
I noticed, that AI was often loosing starting cp with trance ability only, so now starting land cp are:
- 3r armor
- trance ability
- infantry chassis
- grav ability, effectively 2 move points and possibility to move over rocky tiles and fungus with ease.
- cost forced to 1 row, so no one uses them to hurry secret projects.

Good thing, AI quickly in most cases establishes 3 bases in very good locations.
Human players:
- also somewhat accelerated start, so it is not "boring" like moving 2 scouts a turn by one tile...
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 20, 2016, 08:00:35 PM
Well, bad news. Quantum Converter is enabled by Robotic Assembly plant.
Now I am not sure, is Nanoreplicator limited the same? Or it is free of such pre-requisite. I need to check.

Normally, an arrangement could be made without bigger problem, but if the mod is to be without changing of of files other than faction txt and alphax.txt, there are limitations.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Mart on April 20, 2016, 09:33:47 PM
Just checked. So both Nanoreplicator and Quantum Converter are enabled by presence of Robotic Assembly plant.
When working on Unity mod, I probably knew that...

So in order to have Workshop facility, that would not interfere with Genejack facility, the only way is to rename Rob.Assemb.Pla. to Workshop. The blurb is ok. It fits to Workshop too in my opinion.

Now we would have 2 slots:
- blurb with "The Ethics of Greed" clearly indicating Nanotechnology, or possibility to replicate something with atomic details.
- SP giving it free, plus blurb with "Centauri Monopoly" about energy, etc.

how to fit into it our 3 old:
- Robotic Assembly
- Nanoreplicator
- Quantum converter

And ofcourse, having as little change in game experience as possible. Adding "new" facility is quite a change already.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: DrazharLn on May 02, 2016, 01:29:39 AM
Well, bad news. Quantum Converter is enabled by Robotic Assembly plant.
Now I am not sure, is Nanoreplicator limited the same? Or it is free of such pre-requisite. I need to check.

Normally, an arrangement could be made without bigger problem, but if the mod is to be without changing of of files other than faction txt and alphax.txt, there are limitations.

Ford and I both made mod managers that make it easy for the user to select a mod and have all the files set up properly.

If you advocated for using one of those (I recommend Ford's), you could modify more files without annoying users.
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 01:41:48 AM
Link?
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: DrazharLn on May 02, 2016, 03:25:14 AM
Ford's:

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.msg47435 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.msg47435)
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 03:52:08 AM
Good idea with tools like that when they work and are good, to just include them with releases, I think...
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: DrazharLn on May 02, 2016, 05:22:19 PM
The source version of the mod manager requires you to have python installed and is a bit of a faff to use.

I've packaged it in more traditional windows fashion as a main .exe  with some support libraries.

Download here: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.msg92623#msg92623 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8433.msg92623#msg92623)
Title: Re: Rebalance Mod for MP
Post by: Ivorrus on July 20, 2016, 03:29:01 PM
I like changes of this mod but I cann't found download link. Where I can find it?
Templates: 1: Printpage (default).
Sub templates: 4: init, print_above, main, print_below.
Language files: 4: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 31 - 840KB. (show)
Queries used: 17.

[Show Queries]