Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on February 17, 2016, 02:05:37 PM

Title: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 17, 2016, 02:05:37 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-dakota-passes-bill-bathrooms-transgender-students/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-dakota-passes-bill-bathrooms-transgender-students/)

Quote
PIERRE, S.D. - South Dakota would be the first state in the U.S. to approve a law requiring transgender students to use bathrooms and locker rooms that correspond to their sex at birth if the governor signs a bill passed Tuesday by the state Senate.

The Senate voted 20-15 to send the bill to Republican Gov. Dennis Daugaard, who initially responded positively to the measure but said last week he'd need to study it more before making a decision.

Advocates say the bill is meant to protect the privacy of students, but opponents say it discriminates against vulnerable adolescents. CBS affiliate KELO in Sioux Falls reports that those opposed say that in addition to the likelihood it will lead to bullying, they also question the constitutionality of the bill and fear it will cost the state millions in lawsuits.

Under the plan, schools would have to provide a "reasonable accommodation" for transgender students, such as a single-occupancy bathroom or the "controlled use" of a staff-designated restroom, locker room or shower room.

Republican Sen. David Omdahl urged other legislators Tuesday to support the bill to "preserve the innocence of our young people."

Democratic lawmakers and some Republicans unsuccessfully opposed the measure in the Senate.

The American Civil Liberties Union of South Dakota and Human Rights Campaign have been vocal in their opposition to the measure and have called on Daugaard to veto the legislation.

"History has never looked kindly upon those who attack the basic civil rights of their fellow Americans, and history will not treat kindly those who support this discriminatory measure," Chad Griffin, the president of the LGBT-rights organization Human Rights Campaign, said in a statement Tuesday.

Transgender advocates have also criticized comments made by some lawmakers, including Omdahl, about transgender people.

"I'm sorry if you're so twisted you don't know who you are," Omdahl said at a recent event when asked about the bill. "I'm telling you right now, it's about protecting the kids, and I don't even understand where our society is these days."

Several states have looked at addressing gender and public facilities in the past several years. Late last year, the city of Houston was recently home to a bitter public fight over nondiscrimination rights that focused on transgender people's use of bathrooms.

But South Dakota would be the first state in the nation to put such a measure into law, said Joellen Kralik, a research analyst at the National Conference of State Legislatures.

The Legislature's passage of the bill is "shocking," said Thomas Lewis, a transgender student in his senior year at Lincoln High School in Sioux Falls, the state's most populous city.

"At this point, I'm hoping that the governor has a sense of humanity and the common sense not to write this bill into law," said Lewis, who is planning to attend college in Minnesota. "I am so glad to be leaving soon. I can escape the oppression that my home state wants to put on me."

Supporters say South Dakota's plan is a response to changes in the Obama administration's interpretation of the federal Title IX anti-discrimination law related to education. Federal officials have said that barring students from restrooms that match their gender identity is prohibited under Title IX.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 17, 2016, 03:03:38 PM
I completely fail to understand why bathrooms are gendered at all. (1) It just provides an opportunity for discrimination. (2) Gay people exist, so segregation doesn't prevent creepy bathroom behavior (note: not suggesting gay people are more prone to creepy bathroom behavior than straight people). (3) Not everyone has a cleanly defined gender, even at birth, so are they supposed to [poop] in the woods with bears? (4) Male and female humans are not so biologically distinct that they actually require different equipment to excrete waste. Yes, the females have to be sitting down, but other than that...? So why are different facilities even necessary?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 17, 2016, 05:41:09 PM
Through my life, it's been my uh, pleasure? to instruct a number of youth in the proper cleaning of the restroom.  Many, many, many teenage to 20ish boys are completely unaware of the little (generally white) box in the girls room.

In an older era, changing tables were exclusive to the girls room as well, not so much anymore.  Also a nursing area is sometimes in the girls' room. 
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 17, 2016, 10:49:25 PM
Quote
I completely fail to understand why bathrooms are gendered at all.
Because men and women are different ask a silly question. There is no such thing
as a "transgender" anyway. You have the gender you're born with.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 18, 2016, 02:20:10 AM
Quote
I completely fail to understand why bathrooms are gendered at all.

Because men and women are different ask a silly question.


Yes, and if men excreted waste by vomiting out their mouths and women by evaporation, maybe that would justify having different facilities. As it is, the differences between the sexes don't preclude them from using the same facilities.

Quote
There is no such thing
as a "transgender" anyway. You have the gender you're born with.


You are simply incorrect. I won't try to argue this point with you, but I will provide a link to a guy who knows a lot more about the subject than either you or me. If you ever feel the need to challenge your beliefs, you can read it.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gender-its-complicated/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gender-its-complicated/)

This article, too. http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943 (http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 18, 2016, 03:52:40 AM
I just don't know, man - a fair deal for everyone is the principal I try to apply to public policy issues, but this is bathrooms; I don't want anyone in the room while I go as it is.

Our society has yet to get its head thoroughly straitened out on plain ol' homersexuals -- pragmatically speaking, we're probably decades away from a fair deal for trans people in general, let alone bringing an uncomfortable situation like the pants-down room into it...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Eadee on February 18, 2016, 12:42:54 PM
Well, I think each toilet should be separate and have a lockable door, this way a neccesary level of  privacy is provided. I see no need to make whole separate "bathrooms" for different genders. I have no problem if a woman sees me washing my hands neither should a woman have a problem the other way round. Its not like people do not pull up their pants before steping out of the toilet and go wash their hands or am I wrong with that?

And if a place wants to give their customers more privacy they should make those toilets soundproof or install a separate sink inside each of the cells.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 18, 2016, 01:42:10 PM
The biggest issue I see here is the elevated sexual assault risk from letting roosters in the henhouse--if bathrooms were made completely genderless.  Bathrooms are pretty much ideal for predation, and if I were a woman who had to go into a bathroom alone at a highway rest stop I'd be scared silly by the thought of strange men in there.

Simply allowing transgenders to go wherever doesn't seem like a real risk, as they represent a pathetic fraction of the population.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 18, 2016, 02:00:54 PM
Well, I think each toilet should be separate and have a lockable door, this way a neccesary level of  privacy is provided. I see no need to make whole separate "bathrooms" for different genders. I have no problem if a woman sees me washing my hands neither should a woman have a problem the other way round. Its not like people do not pull up their pants before steping out of the toilet and go wash their hands or am I wrong with that?

And if a place wants to give their customers more privacy they should make those toilets soundproof or install a separate sink inside each of the cells.

Inefficient use of space, unfortunately.  There are areas around the world implementing outdoor facilities right in the open the lack of space is so severe.  Many men have this aversion to sitting as well, so hygene could become an issue in a hurry. 
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 18, 2016, 02:01:19 PM
The biggest issue I see here is the elevated sexual assault risk from letting roosters in the henhouse--if bathrooms were made completely genderless.  Bathrooms are pretty much ideal for predation, and if I were a woman who had to go into a bathroom alone at a highway rest stop I'd be scared silly by the thought of strange men in there.

Simply allowing transgenders to go wherever doesn't seem like a real risk, as they represent a pathetic fraction of the population.

So creepy guy just says he's a transgender, and still is in the henhouse. 
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 18, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
There are a few explicitly gender-neutral bathrooms at my school. Most of the bathrooms are gender-specific. I've used one of the gender-neutral ones a couple of times, but have yet to encounter anyone (opposite sex or otherwise) in the bathroom, so I can't say whether my inclination toward sexual assault is higher. But... the fact that not all the bathrooms are gender-neutral means, if my school wanted to, it could gather data on how often assault occurs in each bathroom.

This isn't as ridiculous as it sounds. I get an email from the school every time there's a reported incident on or near the campus (violent, sexual, or otherwise). Most incidents of sexual impropriety seem to occur on the upper floors of the library. Not in bathrooms on the upper floors of the library--just between the shelves, I guess.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 18, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
I just don't know, man - a fair deal for everyone is the principal I try to apply to public policy issues, but this is bathrooms; I don't want anyone in the room while I go as it is.

Our society has yet to get its head thoroughly straitened out on plain ol' homersexuals -- pragmatically speaking, we're probably decades away from a fair deal for trans people in general, let alone bringing an uncomfortable situation like the pants-down room into it...

It's a sticky situation, certainly.  I seem to remember a school here installed a non-gender room.  So, you have boys, girls, and a non-gender facility.  I've seen that more frequently in stores as well, a "family" restroom that is non-gender specific.  They are traditional bathrooms: sink, toilet, and a locking door.  I know for a father of a daughter, I appreciated those 'family' rooms when she was still too young to send off on her own. 

Edit: ninja'd by Lorizael confirming gender neutral rooms at schools. 

I've also personally witnessed/stopped an abduction from a truck stop restroom before.  Father trying to juggle 2 kids in the bathroom, one waiting outside the stall while he helped the second, a creepy truck driver tried to offer the waiting kid a toy, then actually grabbed him.  I was in the middle of one of the worst days and needed to release some frustration anyway. 
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 18, 2016, 02:15:28 PM
Two areas of fact I find relevant to this:

Trans people have crazy high levels of being assaulted, murdered and committing suicide.

Women, as any woman can tell you, need more facilities than men do.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 18, 2016, 02:38:19 PM
Women, as any woman can tell you, need more facilities than men do.

I think they'd be happy with as many facilities as men do.  The urinals allow mens rooms to generally have twice the number in the same space as a womens room. 
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 18, 2016, 02:41:04 PM
Trans people have crazy high levels of being assaulted, murdered and committing suicide.

For the first two bits, I suspect a lot of that comes down to bigotry that looks like fear of the unknown. The only way past that is exposure, painful though that may be. As for the third bit, well, if you feel accepted by society, you might not feel the need to remove yourself from it. Acceptance will come through exposure.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 18, 2016, 02:42:56 PM
Interesting way of putting it, in this context.

I gather that the women-need-more-bathroom problem is more than urinals taking less space than booths.  Women spend more time there; their hygienic needs are more complex, they spend more time at the mirror, and --brace yourselves boys-- they talk to each other in there.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 18, 2016, 09:45:56 PM
They should be ashamed of themselves. They are throwing other peoples children on the altar of political correctness
so they can signal how self righteous they are. Children will be harmed because of this.  It is child abuse.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 18, 2016, 10:01:41 PM
Women?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 18, 2016, 11:17:59 PM
This sort of thing is why the left is hated so much. If you're going to mess up children in your
"social engineering" experiments please use your own and not everyone else's.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 18, 2016, 11:39:16 PM
Cool it, von.  I have zero patience for that blaming the liberals crap.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 19, 2016, 02:01:19 AM
Genuinely not sure how gender-neutral bathrooms would mess up children, unless you're suggesting a child might be scarred by watching their parent harass a transgendered person trying to use the bathroom.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 02:11:25 AM
I'll should admit that I've never known any trans people, and that I'd say this issue combines a facility everyone is a little uncomfortable about -at least most all the men- with a class of people most are uncomfortable about, to say the least...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 19, 2016, 02:34:10 AM
Quote
Genuinely not sure how gender-neutral bathrooms would mess up children,

If you don't understand it I'm not sure there is any way to explain it to you.
You're talking  about giving teenage boys free access to female students bathrooms.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 19, 2016, 02:48:47 AM
I'll should admit that I've never known any trans people, and that I'd say this issue combines a facility everyone is a little uncomfortable about -at least most all the men- with a class of people most are uncomfortable about, to say the least...

I've known two trans people (that I'm aware of). One was kind of a prick, and the other is a pretty cool dude. So you know, kinda like regular people.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 02:51:42 AM
Oh, I'm not surprised to hear it - I'm just no more immune to fear of otherness than anyone else, and haven't had first-hand opportunity to work past that in this case...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 19, 2016, 02:54:12 AM
Quote
Genuinely not sure how gender-neutral bathrooms would mess up children,

If you don't understand it I'm not sure there is any way to explain it to you.
You're talking  about giving teenage boys free access to female students bathrooms.

I get that. When I was in middle and high school, I hated going to the bathroom or locker room. Other teenage boys were awful to me. So I can understand the desire to prevent teenage boys from being terrible, but I don't see why we should stop at barring them from female bathrooms.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 02:58:40 AM
Preventing teenage boys from being terrible would be an even trickier job than changing the cultural standards for bathroom access - which isn't happening anytime soon, y'know...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 19, 2016, 08:54:22 AM
Re: assault, the library stacks would be pretty well tailor-made for the same thing.  Any occasionally/irregularly visited area would be ideal.  I can't speak for your school, but some bathrooms would be more of a risk than others: rooms that don't have a steady influx of people, have a widely varied pool of users, are in shady areas or have users who might be substance-addled, etc.  I don't think we really need to worry about the occasional trans user--I've only met a couple of trans people, but they all seemed pretty meek, not hulking thugs in dresses or whatever people are afraid of.  Possibly this will change as they gain acceptance stop being constantly afraid of getting beat up.  However, I think gender-separate bathrooms in general make sense.

I make it sound like I'm some sort of bathroom-rape expert, so I guess I should emphasize that this is just my personal uninformed speculation talking here.  While I'm disclaiming, I do feel that TG should be thought of as a mental illness; however, I also believe that the correct response to mental illness is not to call them freaks and throw things at them.  Until we have the means to help them stabilize into whatever is the correct biological gender (I realize this can be ambiguous in cases like mosaics/merged twins), it's better to go with it.  If we as a society can deal with Down's and autism, we can deal with guys who want to be called Jessica.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 11:26:02 AM
I understand that, leaving aside the gender identity issues, trans people DO have a high incidence of mental illness.  Make of that what you will.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 19, 2016, 12:55:13 PM
You are simply incorrect. I won't try to argue this point with you, but I will provide a link to a guy who knows a lot more about the subject than either you or me. If you ever feel the need to challenge your beliefs, you can read it.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gender-its-complicated/ (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/gender-its-complicated/)

This article, too. http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943 (http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943)


Having read both, I'm deeply skeptical.  The argument seems to go: there is a process for developing physical sex in humans.  At least 99% of the time, the process works consistently and produces a clear male or female.  If one excludes minor deviations, such as a male with a urethral opening on the bottom of the penis, the figure jumps by an order of magnitude, to 99.9 or thereabouts (or so I gather; it's sometimes unclear, but it gives the ballpark of one in 4500).  The rest of the time the gender development process, like every other process in human biology, shows its potential to go deeply awry, and people are born with genitals so ambiguous it's impossible to say with confidence which sex they are.  There are also intriguing but ultimately inconsequential oddities such as women getting "infected" with cells from an opposite-sex fetus, or people having some of the internal plumbing but never noticing.

The articles' conclusion from this is that human sex is non-binary--because of that less than .01 percent.  This is like arguing that human beings should not be defined as bipedal on account of people born with third legs, or missing legs.  It is effectively false for the overwhelming majority.   Groups are not defined by statistical outliers.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 19, 2016, 02:32:40 PM
Well, not less than 0.01%. The 1 in 4,500 was for a particular class of disorders. Probably somewhere between 0.1% and 1%, which is millions to tens of millions of people worldwide. And that's only counting the types of sexual development disorders we've identified so far. Physical sex in humans definitely follows a bimodal distribution pretty tightly, but that ultimately means it does run into continuum issues. Most people will unambiguously fall into one of two bins, but there will be a somewhat sizable population for whom such a determination is not possible.

What that gets at to me is that physical sex is not in any way essential or sacred. It's just the way humans (and most other animals and plants on the planet) happen to be classified most of the time. But there are other ways of being, both in humans (see above) and in weird cases (see bees and ants, for example). Ways of being are important to me, because they correspond to ways of expressing ourselves. But this isn't just my crazy transhumanism popping up. Sex is a massive thing psychologically speaking, which means it plays into identity.

That's where we get into whether or not transgendered folk are mentally ill. While a person's physical sex can be ambiguous, it is rare to encounter someone in the real world for whom we do not automatically make a determination. We decidedly don't sex most people we meet, so there has to be some other way we're reaching our conclusion. Of course, we're basing our decision on that person's expressed gender identity--the degree to which they conform to the current set of gender roles. That includes having masculine or feminine physical features, to be sure, but also includes fashion, manner, voice, personality, etc.

A trans person is just someone who feels that their gender identity does not match their apparent physical sex. That is, a trans person is just someone who feels the need to express themselves in a way that is not in accord with our current norms regarding gender. That doesn't strike me as mentally ill. Trans men don't believe they have a penis when they clearly don't; they're not delusional. They're just further along a spectrum of behavior that we deem increasingly unacceptable.

That is, there are a lot of stereotypically masculine behaviors that men don't need to exhibit. It's okay to be a guy and not like sports. It's okay to be a guy and be somewhat timid. You might get ribbed for both, and might even get called names because of it, but no one will contend that you are insane for it. But the more essential masculine characteristics you drop, the less acceptable it becomes for you to be that way, until you reach a point where we've decided you're crazy.

I don't understand why we do this, and it honestly seems a bit hypocritical to me. After all, as I said above, we feel comfortable automatically assigning a person's identity all the time based on their expressed gender identity (if you see a person in the distance wearing a dress, you will decide they are a woman), yet we don't allow people to make that determination for themselves based on the same characteristics.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 03:03:52 PM
It's just a teeny bit confusing when you refer to gender as sex...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 03:04:40 PM
Also - page three, and no one's made a Bruce Jenner joke.  Interesting...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 19, 2016, 03:11:21 PM
I contend that most of us unconsciously do this all the time. When you meet a person, you almost automatically classify them as either male or female. Yet you have sequenced their DNA, so your classification is based on their gender identity. I think we should dispense with the illusion that we categorize people by sex and acknowledge that gender identity is the thing. Yes, obviously, most of the time gender identity falls in line with physical sex pretty well, but there will be cases of ambiguity where no clear determination is possible, so why not let individuals choose for themselves how they identify?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 19, 2016, 04:40:44 PM
Brief note, since I have to get ready for work: why would you need to sequence their DNA?  Sex is a phenotype, not a genotype; you can tell a girl in boy's clothes pretty easily most of the time, or vice versa, the plots of fifteen thousand stage plays notwithstanding.  The point of all these displays (clothes, makeup, jewelry, whatever) is to signal something about oneself, something objectively true, except in obscure cases of deformity.  Being TG is like wearing a red, white and blue elephant t-shirt while espousing progressive views.  People don't tolerate your self-definition, no--because your self-definition is a lie.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 05:32:29 PM
Trans people contend that the lie is God's, not theirs.  -Not being trans, I lack expertise to assess who's lying...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 11:11:21 PM
I just saw on the news that this issue has come up in Charlotte, NC, too...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 19, 2016, 11:51:37 PM
Yes its the latest trend in destroying western society and children's childhood. Another shot fired in the war on the family.
This is why we need moral standards and why tolerance doesn't work.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 19, 2016, 11:53:17 PM
I never made a facepalm smilie, did I?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 19, 2016, 11:54:57 PM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dTAneHOfNMU/UOs8B_ySAJI/AAAAAAAAPCQ/V6AodpVtpQA/s800-Ic42/godzilla_facepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 20, 2016, 12:59:26 AM
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." Aristotle

(http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-tolerance-and-apathy-are-the-last-virtues-of-a-dying-society-aristotle-81-63-47.jpg)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 20, 2016, 02:13:45 AM
(a) There's no evidence Aristotle ever said that and (b) Aristotle also said things like "men have more teeth than women" and "heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects" so maybe he shouldn't be your go to guy for wisdom.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 02:22:51 AM
-He also thought sex causes baldness, IIRC.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on February 20, 2016, 02:30:29 AM
Brief note, since I have to get ready for work: why would you need to sequence their DNA?  Sex is a phenotype, not a genotype; you can tell a girl in boy's clothes pretty easily most of the time, or vice versa, the plots of fifteen thousand stage plays notwithstanding.  The point of all these displays (clothes, makeup, jewelry, whatever) is to signal something about oneself, something objectively true, except in obscure cases of deformity.  Being TG is like wearing a red, white and blue elephant t-shirt while espousing progressive views.  People don't tolerate your self-definition, no--because your self-definition is a lie.

I don't think lies come into it at all. As I said, I believe we already determine identity based on gender and are fooling ourselves into thinking otherwise. People can have multifaceted identities without being contradictory or false. For example, a businesswoman can have short hair, put on little to no makeup, and only wear pants and dress shirts. In doing so, she's taking on traditionally masculine behaviors. But no one would claim that she is lying about her identity by doing so. We wouldn't even claim that she is lying only a little bit. Yet it is demonstrably, objectively true that she is behaving in a masculine way while having a female physical sex.

You might argue that she does not claim to be a man, and thus she is not lying. But again, it is my argument that when trans people make such a claim, they are doing so about their gender identity, rather than their physical sex. And all research to date shows that gender identity is a real, probably genetically determined psychological characteristic, rather than some choice someone makes to fool others. This means you can't really go down the road of, "But can't anyone claim to be a woman, or black, or paraplegic, and we have to accept that?"

That said, the opinion I'm offering here is essentially a way station to what I think is a better place. I believe we need to allow nearly complete freedom of expression, the ability to choose how one expresses one's identity, before we can get to the real good stuff. Which is... identities based on accidents of nature (sex, race, paraplegia) are stupid and we should do away with them. Yes, people should be able to identify as female if they want to, but how limiting is such a perspective? We should forge our own identities unhinged from our biological roots and... okay, I'll stop talking now.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 20, 2016, 03:24:02 AM
To that I would say: gender identity is meaningless except in reference to biological sex.  I have no separate "gender identity."  In general, I think gendered activities can be divided into conscious external actions (or socially acceptable pastimes for one's sex, most of which I ignore), and overall gender-linked behavior tendencies.

I think of myself as a man because I was brought up as a boy, and was taught about that sticky-outy bit down there and what it means.  I dress as a man because I was dressed as a boy, and taught to do so for myself, as a child.  I employ other forms of external signaling to whatever extent for much the same reason.  If I could be bothered to show an interest in sports, it would be out of social pressure, I guess.  All these conscious behaviors are purely a response to external influence or empirically verifiable reality.

I also display some stereotypically male behaviors--I'm slovenly, aggressive (in conversation), and don't do that weird thing women do where they talk purely as a bonding activity--presumptively because of hormones or brain structure or something.  Testosterone?  Maybe.  These traits, or personal tendencies, are purely unconscious.  I don't do them deliberately at all; they're just how I am on average.

In either case, there's no innate sense of maleness at work in me that I can determine.  The whole notion of gender identity honestly strikes me as gibberish, and to the extent it exists at all it sounds like a perverse modeling behavior found only in the TG.  Like bird chicks raised by people, only the TG are not birds and hopefully can understand the nonsensical nature of their behavior.  I can accept that they're not doing it to be annoying, or for attention; this is a real compulsion.  But that doesn't make it any less bizarre or pointless.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 20, 2016, 04:52:31 PM
Quote
(a) There's no evidence Aristotle ever said that

Lol nice try. The truth is he's right and we can all see it.
A society without moral standards falls apart and liberals don't
have moral standards, they just follow whats fashionable.
So society falls into a death spiral until non liberals put
their foot down and stop it.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 04:53:30 PM
(http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/kirk-facepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 20, 2016, 05:14:00 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-lcKmI2pWooTZAwCXAtrrud2W50Sk9k47Zqduim7Wu9ivtglxdQ)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 05:35:24 PM
I remember when I could have discussions about current affairs in this folder without being annoyed by juvenile trash-talk.  I like diversity, or I'd have never pointed you at this folder - but I also like people who think for themselves and don't stink up the place with the same old unreflected crap I could hear anywhere.  Ignoring it doesn't stop it stinking up the forum.  Arguing with it -and I've become picky about who I'll argue with online, and this has never met my personal standards of being worth my time- doesn't make it go away and always ends up getting ruder than I'm comfortable with.  I'm so, so very tired of this nonsense, and I ran out of ideas for dealing with it months ago.

[mod hat]No more about your imaginary liberals.  And class up your act in Rec Commons in general.  -The community would miss your genuinely valuable on-topic posts in other subforums if you didn't.[/mod hat]
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: vonbach on February 20, 2016, 05:58:51 PM
Ah I see you want debate as long as I agree with you. Got it.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 06:12:39 PM
You are a Serially Vexatious Poster who just responded to an official directive with a personal attack - 24 hours.

I'm interested in points of view other than my own, not least because it's dull when everyone agrees.  What I'm not interested in is stupid opinions I've already heard a million times not even expressed in a sophisticated way, or ever an original one.  There is neither entertainment nor learning to be had in that, and it gets in the way of the good stuff.

In real life, I walk away from people like you when current events come up - here, I own the place, and can't.

If what you say were true, I'd have perma'd you six months ago.  You've been seriously harming my enjoyment of Rec Commons -every time an interesting conversation tried to happen- for that long.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 20, 2016, 08:14:23 PM
The thing is, VB, that's not "debate."  You aren't responding to any points in detail, or examining your own opinions, or even modifying the things you say to suit your particular audience of the moment.  You're simply vomiting unsubstantiated accusations at nobody in particular.  How are we supposed to debate with such flat declarations, beyond "nuh-uh" or "well, conservatives are [equally cartoonish caricature]"?  Neither option is constructive or interesting.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 08:22:22 PM
Thank you, Elok.



-I think you're probably wrong about a trans being exactly a "lie", by the way.  That's a matter of perspective, for one thing, and assumes motives that don't necessarily follow.  It all depends on who that born-male person put the dress on for - to fool you not being in evidence.  Perhaps it's a lie 'he' tells 'him'self -I expect that's closer to where you mean to come from- but that's not quite the same thing, is it?  I feel safe in assuming that it's highly confusing to look down at your private parts and find them entirely the wrong sort.  I don't know that feeling that way is a lie, but I do think I ought to extend some compassion to someone who does.

I'm trying to be sympathetic to trans people here, because [shrugs] it's, at minimum, polite, which is always a thing to strive for.  Honestly, I've met one or two, didn't get to know them, and conceptually it freaks me out - but it's not like anyone has ever made their trans status my problem in any way.  -So, interesting conversation, and again, the bathroom stuff isn't going to get much traction for a very long time to come.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 20, 2016, 10:01:56 PM
I'm trying to not be too offensive, but it's hard to inoffensively say "this person is mentally unwell."

As for "lying," I don't mean they're trying to trick me, but that trans status is a kind of dishonesty because "gender identity," such as it is, does not exist in a vacuum.  It exists to signal sex, which matters for a variety of reasons, not all of them what we think of as sexual.  Men relate to women differently than they do to other men even when they aren't remotely attracted to said women.  Even gay men treat women differently than men in conversation, and this is generally good; if we always spoke to women the way we often speak to each other, they'd probably take it very poorly.  This holds true even if you leave out the off-color jokes you probably think I'm talking about.  For example, men will argue with each other quite aggressively about anything or nothing and, unless the subject is quite personal or it gets heated, don't take it badly at all.  This same approach, taken with women, almost invariably gives offense.  I have extensive personal experience with this phenomenon, as you might imagine . . .

Ahem!  As I was saying.  Gender signaling is important for many reasons.  The problem with TGs is that they ape the signals, but without the substance to back it up.  Some of them may think and act like women in many ways (or men in the case of F-to-M), but they ultimately are not.  And it's not some trivial detail of irrelevant cosmetics, it shapes more of our relations than we usually like to acknowledge.

I think I differ from Lori in that I believe that, once you've stripped away all those accidents of birth he talks about--race, sex, genetics, ability--you find there's nothing left.  Or at least nothing interesting.  We are largely defined by our limitations, and I have a hard time picturing an actual intelligence divorced from those animal motives.  What this implies about God is a very interesting question, but I'm not about to get into that right now.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 20, 2016, 10:30:51 PM
Gender, as a rule, is profoundly fundamental to our identity and behavior in the ways you mention and more, absolutely; trans being a thing makes it confusing, no argument.  The pronoun problem alone is enormously irritating, if you care about courtesy.

-But I'd submit that the proper Christian position is to view trans people, not to be condescending and certainly not insulting, as afflicted, and react with compassion.  Sucks to be confused by a 'guy' in a dress?  Sucks more for 'him'.  'He's' in the middle of it every second, and I don't think an argument that it screws things up socially for others gets any more laundry done than saying we ought to ostracize lepers because their disease is off-putting.  -That wasn't exactly the position Jesus took when confronted with dusty leper feet.

---

Have I ever gone into my Gay Uncle Theory of why homosexuality doesn't breed itself out of the gene pool tout suite?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 21, 2016, 12:34:58 AM
Gender, as a rule, is profoundly fundamental to our identity and behavior in the ways you mention and more, absolutely; trans being a thing makes it confusing, no argument.  The pronoun problem alone is enormously irritating, if you care about courtesy.

-But I'd submit that the proper Christian position is to view trans people, not to be condescending and certainly not insulting, as afflicted, and react with compassion.  Sucks to be confused by a 'guy' in a dress?  Sucks more for 'him'.  'He's' in the middle of it every second, and I don't think an argument that it screws things up socially for others gets any more laundry done than saying we ought to ostracize lepers because their disease is off-putting.  -That wasn't exactly the position Jesus took when confronted with dusty leper feet.

---

Have I ever gone into my Gay Uncle Theory of why homosexuality doesn't breed itself out of the gene pool tout suite?


As an animal breeder, I've made the acquaintance of 10s of thousands of them, and I no longer hold such a binary view of sex or gender or whatever. That's like saying that everybody has 2 chromosomes. Most of us do, but not all of us. Individuals may appear to be one thing or the other, but that can change with puberty. There are males, females, and a variety of hermaphrodites. Animals go nude. People wear clothes and have hair in discrete places. Short of being thoroughly sexually intimate or doing lab work, it's pretty hard to be sure of what we think we know.

Not every individual sorts out in binary fashion.

"All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord hath made them all!"

I try to error on the side of the Golden Rule and "judge not lest ye be judged".


Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 12:46:24 AM
;nod There is more in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy. ;nod

And how's the one about 'the beginning of wisdom is to know how little you know' go?

I know I don't really understand the trans thing, though this thread is helping me sort my thoughts...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 21, 2016, 01:16:03 AM
My wife is on an e-mail list.

One of the guys on it is very handsome and a certified genius. Perfect in many ways. He worked for a university in some capacity.

He was also a certified chimera. That is to say, His DNA chromosome profile was different depending upon whether he was sampled with a cheek swab or a blood test. ( I forget the particulars) .He said he was visually attracted to men, but found their scent repulsive, so he was theoretically gay, but asexual in practice. So, it kinda sucked to be him.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 21, 2016, 09:28:38 AM
Gender, as a rule, is profoundly fundamental to our identity and behavior in the ways you mention and more, absolutely; trans being a thing makes it confusing, no argument.  The pronoun problem alone is enormously irritating, if you care about courtesy.

-But I'd submit that the proper Christian position is to view trans people, not to be condescending and certainly not insulting, as afflicted, and react with compassion.  Sucks to be confused by a 'guy' in a dress?  Sucks more for 'him'.  'He's' in the middle of it every second, and I don't think an argument that it screws things up socially for others gets any more laundry done than saying we ought to ostracize lepers because their disease is off-putting.  -That wasn't exactly the position Jesus took when confronted with dusty leper feet.

---

Have I ever gone into my Gay Uncle Theory of why homosexuality doesn't breed itself out of the gene pool tout suite?

I'm not arguing for putting TGs in a little box and poking them with sticks or anything.  I do believe that it's kindest to simply play along in most cases, right up to letting them in the bathrooms.  However, that imperative doesn't change the fundamental unsoundness of believing that one is a woman in plain biological reality, but really a man in some mystical and ill-defined sense which for some reason is allowed to take primacy over the (in the vast majority of cases) unambiguous physical truth.  These people (and everyone around them) would be much better off with consistent sex and gender, and being supportive to the extreme of looking at plain birth defects and declaring "non-binary gender" is likely to undermine any efforts to that end.*SEE BELOW*

Once we have reached that extreme, I have severe doubts about the ability of scientists to be reasonable in the face of progressive political pressure.  As it stands, I believe a perfectly unbiased researcher could discover very strong evidence that trans people are, say, more likely to be criminals (or something else unhelpful to the LGBTAQetc. cause), and find himself incapable of publishing it.  No journal would accept the paper, no matter how strong.  If he tried, it would risk his career.  Whatever the truth is about these people, we are not likely to find it under such circumstances.

As for the Gay Uncle, you're not the first to propose it.  The difficulty is that homosexuality is tantamount to sterility, so the gay uncle advantage (and/or heterozygote advantage) would have to be positively enormous to offset.  Gay uncled kids would need to be something like fifty percent more likely to survive for it to make sense.  Which doesn't mean homosexuality doesn't have biological roots--it certainly seems to--but the jury is still out on why it's there or what it's for.

EDIT: TO BE CLEAR, by "efforts to that end," I mean discovering the causes of this phenomenon so that future people can be spared the indignity of a persistent compulsion for the impossible.  I don't mean forcing them to dress like their biological sex or anything.  It would be helpful to know what percentage of the TG are chimeras, mosaics, developed as the opposite of their genetic sex, or simply born gender-ambiguous.  In some cases, there may be no clear answer, and the individual's choice may be as good as any other method to decide.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 05:26:29 PM
This dances up to a principle that I hold dear and don't think our society pays enough pragmatic attention to; at some point, preventing one person from being backed over by a garbage truck might not worth waking up millions and millions at 6 AM with the beeper.  It's like being a mother so overprotective that it profoundly damages the child other ways - it's trying to ensure that no one will ever die when that's not faintly possible - it's overkill, or easily can be.  It's possible, to loose sight of the forest for the trees, trying to micromanage safety and justice.

Whether this is issue is that, I can't say, but there are some signs of it if I'm not completely wrong about the statistics...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 21, 2016, 05:34:43 PM
Thanks for your clarification edit, Elok.
I have to agree with that as well as your assertion about sociology getting in the way of science in this area.


If were to edit my own post I would add that butchering or necropsy of an apparent but oddly behaved female might reveal an undescended/ undeveloped  testicle, as another example of such outliers.

Anyway, appearances can be deceiving, and animals don't wear clothes to make it harder.

EDIT: I usually declare my vote in the poll, but I forgot to mention that I voted "I don't know".
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: DrazharLn on February 21, 2016, 05:55:25 PM
The student union at my university has non-gendered bathrooms. I've used them, it's no big deal and they make my trans friends feel a lot more comfortable (particularly if they don't represent as their desired gender everywhere yet - two of my Male to Female trans friends represented as women in private but as men/androgynous at work).

I strongly agree that bathrooms should be unisex.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 06:38:49 PM
Worth noting that my sole experience with a non-family/residence ungendered bathroom, a renfair campground, it was no big deal.  -To me, not just the weird godless hippies.  Everybody excretes, and given room for booths, nobody saw my privates and I'm not uncomfortable being seen washing my hands.

I still think it's not happening anytime soon on any great scale, but there's that.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on February 21, 2016, 07:17:11 PM
As for the Gay Uncle, you're not the first to propose it.  The difficulty is that homosexuality is tantamount to sterility, so the gay uncle advantage (and/or heterozygote advantage) would have to be positively enormous to offset.  Gay uncled kids would need to be something like fifty percent more likely to survive for it to make sense.  Which doesn't mean homosexuality doesn't have biological roots--it certainly seems to--but the jury is still out on why it's there or what it's for.
Given modern reproductive technology, gay men can have biological offspring. All it takes is a clinic/hospital, an egg donor, and a woman willing to carry and give birth to the child. Custody arrangements should ideally be made with the help of a lawyer, to avoid messy situations where one or both adults change their minds.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 08:07:19 PM
-Which is irrelevant to the theory, being even possible for one generation now.

And I THOUGHT I was missing something I wanted to respond to on my last pass:

As for the Gay Uncle, you're not the first to propose it.  The difficulty is that homosexuality is tantamount to sterility, so the gay uncle advantage (and/or heterozygote advantage) would have to be positively enormous to offset.  Gay uncled kids would need to be something like fifty percent more likely to survive for it to make sense.  Which doesn't mean homosexuality doesn't have biological roots--it certainly seems to--but the jury is still out on why it's there or what it's for.
Obviously, the name gives the drift away, but let's see if I can't defend this hill.

Now, this isn't based on anything but a broad sense of the tides and trends of history -and I can't imagine statistics about the demographics of ancient Greece/Rome/what-have-you that are worth anything are even possible- but there's an appearance that civilized, peaceful, urbanized times and places see a lot more expression of alternate sexual modes.  (Whether that's to do with more gayity or more OPEN gayity may or may not be relevant.)

Still, in, for instance, modern America, the traditional circumstances are certainly met - the key one being high population density/pressure.  Mylochka and I are not gay, but it's a safe bet that neither of us is going to breed, and are functionally, Buster's gay aunt and uncle.  (This gets into the most obvious part, but just dotting all my Ts and making sure I'm clear.)  I've both most decidedly channeled my thwarted complex of breeding instincts into a profound unconditional love of my niece -I know I've never done anything to hint that she matters to me; sorry for the shock- as the closest to progeny of my own I can hope for, and --- has anyone reading had nieces/nephews before having their own kids?  I expect those parents can confirm that the sibling's kids got infinitely less cute allasudden...

Look; stuff could happen to her parents, and she has a life advantage that not absolutely everyone has - I would do anything for her, and I'm not making cousins to take up space and compete for resources.  I'm not compounding overpopulation, and that's an advantage for the rest of the species - but in evolutionary terms, Elok, your kids aren't passing on half my genes, and she is.  She's got two possible substitute parents in addition to her grandparents, which is a non-trivial completive advantage.

IF there's a hereditary genetic component to alternate sexual modes that tend to at least breed less, there has to be a distinct advantage inherent to keep them from disappearing, QED.  To the extent my observations about historical circumstantial trends are correct and relevant, and the base-assumptions hold, the logic seems to work.

(I can think of a myriad of alternate explanations proceeding from different assumption sets [stable civilizations at peace leading to nodes of lasting high population density also feature a lot of people with too doggon much time and opportunities to get up to 'no good' on their hands, for the strongest] and freely acknowledge that this entire line of thought couldn't get a lot less rigorous, but I don't think you could say that it was ridiculous, or wrong on its face.  The trends/circumstances I point out aren't imaginary, for all of being nigh-impossible to relevantly research and prove...)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on February 21, 2016, 11:52:09 PM
Quick thoughts:

WRT reproduction, one of the things that annoyed me about the gay marriage fight was that, even if gay marriage is "not real marriage," it should not matter to conservatives for that very same reason.  The decline of marriage is horrifying because it leads to broken families and general misery.  But gay couples are effectively sterile, and can only have kids by adoption or biological hocus-pocus, both of which are outrageously expensive at this point.  Gay people with kids are therefore very unlikely to be single parents juggling three part-time jobs and living with a series of dubious partners just to make ends meet.  So who cares if they want to file their taxes jointly?

Re gay uncles, I wasn't just speaking for myself there; I once read an extended blog post by an apparently secular evo bio type arguing that the gay uncle thing just won't work mathematically.  A fifty percent offspring survival advantage really would be quite spectacular.  Even if you toss in some HZ advantage, I have a hard time buying it.  Really it's just a puzzle all around, and the simplest answer imo would be some mix of environmental factors inducing it in addition to a modest genetic component.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 22, 2016, 12:00:09 AM
Probably - I certainly didn't manage to make the strongest part of my argument on the benefits to Buster, and have no way of even faking the probabilities.

The assumptions are just a bit of a house of cards, too, until somebody really nails the cause(s) of homosexuality; I find the near-universal anecdotal evidence that people are either born that way (or get that way incredibly young for reasons they cannot fathom) convincing that it's no choice - but it's all a mystery, really.

I hope I've been consistent in hinting that I don't think I know enough to judge.



My sister likes to say, of gay marriage, that since gay men's promiscuity (let's not front) is inherently offensive to theocons, their opposition to Mark and Seth going to see a judge and settling down to a life of monogamy makes no sense.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2016, 06:49:04 PM
Quote
Charlotte, N.C., passes transgender rights bill: Will state let it stand?
The controversial measure bans discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression in housing and places of public accommodation.
Christian Science Monitor
By Bamzi Banchiri  3 hours ago



The city of Charlotte, N.C., leapt to the forefront of a national debate on LGBT rights on Monday with the passing of a law granting transgender people the right to use the bathroom that corresponds to their gender identity.

The law, passed by the Charlotte City Council in a 7-4 vote and set to take effect in April, bans discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression in housing and places of public accommodation. The measure includes a controversial revision that allows transgender residents to choose to restrooms corresponding to the gender with which they identify.

Similar so-called bathroom bills have sparked heated debates in local and state governments around the United States in recent months. Supporters of such bills see the provision as a preservation of the dignity and safety of transgender individuals. Opponents say that the measure opens the door for sexual predators to gain access to bathrooms of the opposite sex.

The debate has become particularly contentious when it comes to restrooms and locker room facilities in public schools. Charlotte's law does not extend to public schools, but that has not removed contention from the debate, which has set the city's Democratic mayor to butt heads with the Republican governor.

"I'm pleased that Charlotte has sent a signal that we will treat people with dignity and respect, even when we disagree," Charlotte Mayor Jennifer Roberts said moments after the vote.

North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory (R) has previously said that considers the provision allowing transgender people to select which bathroom they use to be a threat to public safety and has warned lawmakers that the state could step in to negate the vote.

"This action of allowing a person with male anatomy, for example, to use a female restroom or locker room will most likely cause immediate State legislative intervention which I would support as governor," Governor McCrory wrote in the email to two Council members.

More than 140 members of the public packed a council hearing before the vote. Some self-identified Christian conservatives, also expressed concerns that the nondiscrimination law would allow transgender people – and men posing as trans – to sexually assault women in restrooms.

Bathroom attacks has been a potent argument for blocking and repealing LGBT nondiscrimination laws, yet there are no, “documented cases in the 17 states and 225 other cities with such laws on the books of people using the policies for nefarious purposes,” according to Buzzfeed news.

Last year, concerns over such attacks torpedoed a similar nondiscrimination bill in Houston. Similar concerns prompted South Dakota legislators to pass a bill earlier this month requiring students to use bathrooms corresponding to their sex at birth. The governor has expressed support for the measure but also said that he will do more research before deciding to sign or veto the bill.

This is not the the first time the Charlotte City Council has introduced such a bill. A similar measure was narrowly defeated by the Charlotte City Council in March 2015, even after the removal of a provision that would have allowed bathroom use based on gender identity. Local officials later announced that transgender people could use the bathrooms corresponding to their gender identity in the city- and county-owned facilities.

Advocacy group Equality NC issued a statement criticizing McCrory for "perpetuating the same tired and debunked myths about transgender people and public safety."

Other opponents of the measure – including some clergy and business owners – have sent the City Council a letter saying businesses should have the right to refuse service based on sexual orientation or gender identity.

This report contains materials from The Associated Press.
http://news.yahoo.com/charlotte-n-c-passes-transgender-rights-bill-state-145002610.html (http://news.yahoo.com/charlotte-n-c-passes-transgender-rights-bill-state-145002610.html;_ylt=AwrC1DE5qMxWXH4ACjDQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByNXM5bzY5BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: DrazharLn on February 26, 2016, 02:03:26 PM
Quote
there are no, “documented cases in the 17 states and 225 other cities with such laws on the books of people using the policies for nefarious purposes,” according to Buzzfeed news.

Great citation, Yahoo/Associated Press.

I imagine it's true, but it's still a bit annoying. I really think that journalists should up their citation and correctness game.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 26, 2016, 05:50:05 PM
Bad journalism is universal, as I've been saying forever.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on February 26, 2016, 06:59:31 PM
--- has anyone reading had nieces/nephews before having their own kids?  I expect those parents can confirm that the sibling's kids got infinitely less cute allasudden...


The vituperator bore progeny before we did, however, given the family dynamics, I only saw her maybe once or twice a year before Kyle was born, and I was sure as hell not allowed to hold the baby or sit the toddler by any stretch of the imagination, so I can't really comment much on that side of things. 

However, my younger brother has 2 little dolls I don't see near enough, and I've corrupted sat hEt's sister's kids every chance I've had taking them to all sorts of Uno styled fun. 

Actually, I'd say all the nephews/nieces that were born after we stopped having kids I probably have a stronger bond than those born before/while we had babies of our own.  Probably boils down to more of my attention needed on my own kids leading to a lack of young bonding with the nephews/nieces.

That and kids either love me or hate are terrified of me.  There's no middle ground. 


Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2016, 07:14:50 PM
Another wince-heavy week as a North Carolinian over here, with a great deal more coverage of our Neanderthal state legislature and Governor passing a screw all discriminated-against people bill than there ever was that our largest city passed a pro-trans ordinance in the first place.  It's embarrassing to have your state going through a nasty throw-back phase.

Y'know, crap on the buttclowns in Raleigh and all, but anyone poking fun and lumping us all in together while sitting in a state where no city has passed such an ordinance deserves to be struck by lightning.
;hypocrite
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2016, 01:27:30 AM
Re gay uncles, I wasn't just speaking for myself there; I once read an extended blog post by an apparently secular evo bio type arguing that the gay uncle thing just won't work mathematically.  A fifty percent offspring survival advantage really would be quite spectacular.  Even if you toss in some HZ advantage, I have a hard time buying it.  Really it's just a puzzle all around, and the simplest answer imo would be some mix of environmental factors inducing it in addition to a modest genetic component.
Okay, a point I didn't quite make clear enough, or buried; the reason I came up with a Gay Uncle theory in the first place:  trying to make evolutionary sense of why gay is a thing, and not terribly uncommon at all.
IF there's a hereditary genetic component to alternate sexual modes that tend to at least breed less, there has to be a distinct advantage inherent to keep them from disappearing, QED.
-On the other hand, I actually know a girl who's the product of a gay father in a sham marriage (and believe me, the ramifications on that family and her are worth a thread of its own) and I DO wonder what the historical statistics on THAT are...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on March 28, 2016, 01:39:23 AM
What I'm about to say may offend some people, but I do think that some fears are warranted.

It's not impossible that a sexual predator could use the "use whatever bathroom/dressing room makes you most comfortable" law to simply stroll in and attempt to commit an assault.

After all, anyone saying "heywaitaminute, this is the women's bathroom, you can't be here" would be accused of bigotry/hate crime if they challenged the person. They can't ask for the person's medical/psych records to prove that they're transgendered...

I'm not saying there would likely be many incidents, but to expect that there would be zero incidents is hopelessly naive.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on March 28, 2016, 02:08:42 PM
Stupid net ate my post.

Situational awareness is always a key wherever you are. 

I don't think people expect zero incidents.  I think they expect no increase in incidents, since the dude wanting to assault someone in the restroom right now isn't going to care about the sign on the door.  I guarantee someone is going to use the law as an excuse if they get arrested for assault.  PROMISE.  I think the point is more that statistically, they don't expect to see an increase.  Now, if it makes it more difficult to convict the creeps might need to come into the thought process.   

Truly transgendered people tend to look/act the gender they feel.  I really don't think people will stop questioning that creepy bearded dude heading to the ladies room.  More a don't freak out if the lady washing her hands has an Adam's apple and speaks in a baritone. 



Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2016, 07:32:56 PM
I dunno - I gather that when you look up the statistics, it's overwhelmingly the trans people getting assaulted, not the other way around.  I SERIOUSLY doubt any statute is going to change that, or change the bathroom selections of many trans people at all.  Beating them to death is already illegal, and yet it happens...

So pro-trans laws aren't even a Band-Aid; they're a gesture.  But gestures matter, or why all the fuss?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on March 28, 2016, 07:45:33 PM
@Unorthodox: Firefox + Lazarus plugin helps alleviate browsers eating posts. ;)


Just a reminder that not every would-be rapist is a bearded, rugged alpha-male. Some of them seem quite harmless until they're suddenly not.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 30, 2016, 09:36:00 PM
Quote
North Carolina attorney general won’t defend transgender law: It’s a ‘national embarrassment’
Yahoo News
Michael Walsh  Reporter  March 29, 2016



One day after civil liberties groups filed suit to fight a controversial “bathroom bill” in North Carolina that they say discriminates against the LGBT community, state Attorney General Roy Cooper announced that he would not defend its constitutionality.

“We should not even be here today, but we are. We’re here because the governor has signed statewide legislation that puts discrimination into the law,” Cooper told reporters in Raleigh Tuesday.

According to Cooper, House Bill 2 (HB2) is in direct conflict with nondiscrimination policies at North Carolina’s justice department and treasurer’s office, as well as many of the state’s businesses. Though the LGBT community is targeted, he said, it could ultimately result in the discrimination of other groups as well.

“House Bill 2 is unconstitutional,” he said. “Therefore, our office will not represent the defendants in this lawsuit, nor future lawsuits involving the constitutionality of House Bill 2.”

Cooper called the new law a “national embarrassment” that will hurt North Carolina’s economy if not repealed. And there are already signs that he might be right.

San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee banned nonessential publicly funded travel there in a show of opposition to the law on Friday. New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and Seattle Mayor Ed Murray followed suit on Monday.


(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/XFoaj8_.bOvVJj30e9.OHw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MzAwMDtoPTI0NTY7aWw9cGxhbmU-/http://41.media.tumblr.com/cb041bc63f74808a11ea74c3995b259d/tumblr_inline_o4tevsgqOc1td5k0c_1280.jpg)
North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper speaks at a news conference in his state offices in Raleigh, N.C., on Tuesday. (Photo: Harry Lynch/The News & Observer via AP)


“In New York, we believe that all people — regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation — deserve the same rights and protections under the law,” Cuomo said in a statement. “From Stonewall to marriage equality, our state has been a beacon of hope and equality for the LGBT community, and we will not stand idly by as misguided legislation replicates the discrimination of the past.”

Cuomo, a Democrat, said his ban on travel to the Tar Heel State would last “as long as there is a law in North Carolina that creates the grounds for discrimination against LGBT people.”

In its most literal application, House Bill 2 requires people to use only bathrooms reserved for their biological sex, which the bill defines as “the physical condition of being male or female, which is stated on a person’s birth certificate.”

But the reach of this bill, which goes into effect on Friday, will go far beyond bathrooms: It also prohibits local governments from passing new ordinances that would ban discrimination against specific groups.

North Carolina lawmakers approved the bill last week in reaction to a February ordinance by the Charlotte City Council. That ordinance would have outlawed discriminating against gay and transgender people and affirmed that transgender people can use restrooms that match their gender identities.

Supporters of HB2 argued that the ordinance would have allowed men to enter women’s restrooms, showers and locker rooms in public buildings — placing women in danger. Opponents of HB2 argued that the lawmakers were playing on fears to legalize discrimination.


(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/z695r1nVtdsIFBXCk7X8Hg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MzEwNztoPTIxNjQ7aWw9cGxhbmU-/http://40.media.tumblr.com/77aefe83f6d5339652bb83331f1b758a/tumblr_inline_o4tcwiOnHe1td5k0c_1280.jpg)
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo leaves a minimum wage rally in Albany, N.Y., on March 15. (Photo: Mike Groll/AP)


“Charlotte had chosen to be a fair and welcoming city, to express its values in a local ordinance,” Tara Borelli, the senior attorney at Lambda Legal, said in an interview with Yahoo News. “And HB2 really runs roughshod over those values by passing this outrageous law. It really tarnishes the reputation of the state.”

The North Carolina Family Policy Council, a socially conservative nonprofit supporting HB2, argues that the council’s “radical and hazardous” ordinance undercuts the privacy, safety and dignity of women, children and the elderly.

“This is an appalling and inexcusable effort to supersede common sense laws in North Carolina and replace them with radical policies that are clearly out of touch with the values of the majority of North Carolinians,” organization president John L. Rustin said in a statement. “It is particularly disturbing that those who oppose HB 2 continue to misrepresent the law in outlandish ways and seek to put the safety of women, children, elderly, and others at risk to accommodate the desires of a few!”

Ross Murray, GLAAD’s programs director for the South, said the pro-HB2 arguments are based on “outdated and frankly horrific stereotypes” about transgender women as sexual predators and distract from the necessity of nondiscrimination ordinances to protect an already vulnerable population.

“Bills like this always get boiled down to talking about bathrooms, but it’s really important to understand that we are also talking about nondiscrimination in terms of employment and in terms of housing and being able to let people live their everyday lives,” Murray said to Yahoo News.

House Bill 2 is just one of many so-called bathroom bills in state legislatures throughout the United States. These include high-profile cases in Texas, Minnesota, Kansas and South Dakota.

LGBT rights groups have been fighting these bills, and North Carolina’s is no exception. On Monday, the American Civil Liberties Union, ACLU of North Carolina, Lambda Legal and Equality North Carolina filed a lawsuit hoping to overturn HB2.


(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/HzCCXtoiZRziRl2WAg0wRg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTAyNDtoPTc1NDtpbD1wbGFuZQ--/http://40.media.tumblr.com/c6282d37b1b8b6ef9319148f42cb2d76/tumblr_inline_o4td10pbZ51td5k0c_1280.jpg)
People protest outside the North Carolina Executive Mansion in Raleigh, N.C., on March 24. (Photo: Emery P. Dalesio/AP)


The plaintiffs argue that the bill violates the Equal Protection and Due Process clauses of the 14th Amendment by discriminating on the basis of sex and sexual orientation and is therefore unconstitutional. They also say the bill violates Title IX because it discriminates based on sex.

“We were extraordinarily disappointed. There were clear statements on record by the governor and lawmakers, but we really hoped that reason and fairness would prevail. This law, it’s just a travesty,” Lambda Legal attorney Borelli said.

North Carolina Senate Leader Phil Berger and House Speaker Tim Moore, both Republicans, released a joint statement Monday in response to the lawsuit that accused the “far-left groups” behind the lawsuit of using the state as a pawn in their “extreme agenda.”

“This lawsuit takes this debate out of the hands of voters and instead attempts to argue with a straight face that there is a previously undiscovered ‘right’ in the U.S. Constitution for men to use women’s bathrooms and locker rooms — but we are confident the court will find the General Assembly acted properly in accordance with existing state and federal law,” the statement reads.

The lawsuit was filed against Republican North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory, Attorney General Cooper and the University of North Carolina on behalf of transgender UNC employee Joaquín Carcano, transgender UNC student Payton McGarry and Angela Gilmore, a lesbian North Carolina Central University law professor.

A firestorm of outrage erupted on March 23 after McCrory signed the bill into law, accusing Charlotte’s mayor and city council of breaching basic privacy and etiquette by going far beyond their core responsibilities.

“The basic expectation of privacy in the most personal of settings, a restroom or locker room, for each gender was violated by government overreach and intrusion by the mayor and city council of Charlotte,” McCrory said in a statement. “This radical breach of trust and security under the false argument of equal access not only impacts the citizens of Charlotte but people who come to Charlotte to work, visit or play.”

Mike Meno, the communications director for the ACLU of North Carolina, said the “ugly and distorted rhetoric” of lawmakers to pass House Bill 2 is among the most harmful consequences of this controversy.


(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Noeuq_z3FXYHyHtrB65bVg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTAyNDtoPTY4MjtpbD1wbGFuZQ--/http://41.media.tumblr.com/75be9658373163b6d94692c9798cb215/tumblr_inline_o4tcyuOd361td5k0c_1280.jpg)
North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory speaks at the Wake County Republican Party 2016 County Convention in Raleigh, N.C., on March 8. (Photo: Al Drago/CQ Roll Call)


“Transgender people face high rates of harassment and sometimes even assault in public accommodations. That is exactly what Charlotte’s ordinance was trying to protect people from,” Meno said to Yahoo News.

Sections 3.1 and 3.3 of House Bill 2 specifically protect people from discrimination based on race, religion, color, national origin, age, biological sex or handicap. In fact, “biological sex” is underlined in what was likely intended to distinguish it from gender identity.

Opponents of House Bill 2 say that the new law essentially legalizes discrimination against gay and transgender people.

“That’s something that flies in the face not only of American values but North Carolina’s values. And I think the outpouring of opposition from people across our state and across our country points to how out of step this extreme legislation is with our values,” Meno said.

In fact, on Monday, the LGBT community got other signs that the tide may be slowly turning in its favor. White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest condemned HB2 as “mean-spirited.” And Republican Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal announced that he intends to veto a “religious liberty” bill that protects opponents of same-sex marriage, saying, “I do not think that we have to discriminate against anyone to protect the faith-based community in Georgia.”
https://www.yahoo.com/politics/ny-gov-cuomo-bans-travel-to-north-carolina-in-184327168.html (https://www.yahoo.com/politics/ny-gov-cuomo-bans-travel-to-north-carolina-in-184327168.html)



There nothing to push me left like the right acting the way it always does...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 09, 2016, 01:02:32 AM
I'm seeing headlines today about Charles Barkley calling for some basketball thing not to happen in NC - and Bruce Springsteen canceling a concert Sunday...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Dio on April 09, 2016, 04:15:56 AM
I keep hearing about the passage of legislation that makes $15 dollars per hour the new minimum wage across California over the next several years.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 09, 2016, 06:18:34 PM
Relevance?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Yitzi on April 10, 2016, 12:06:29 PM
For restrooms in particular, the only sensible ways to distinguish are by what their body is right now, and by what they're attracted to (as the whole idea of separated restrooms is to avoid awkwardness due to sexual attraction), and separating by the latter as well (so that any two people with one attracted to the other won't share a restroom) isn't really feasible.

Hence, just separate by what their body is now, regardless of what their actual gender is in whatever manner that phrase is to be taken.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Dio on April 10, 2016, 04:01:10 PM
I think the government should keep bathrooms and locker rooms seperate based upon the physical characteristics of the individual.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on April 10, 2016, 04:05:56 PM
Agreed. Cyborgs with extreme body mods might not be able to use our bathrooms effectively, and let's not even start on genetically engineered spider-human hybrids.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 10, 2016, 08:11:14 PM
-Because it's totally not a complicated matter...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on April 11, 2016, 02:03:12 AM
Sorry, I was punchy this morning. Need sleep.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Dio on April 11, 2016, 02:50:36 AM
Sorry, I was punchy this morning. Need sleep.
I find it interesting that different personality traits appear while the body remains under stress.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 02, 2016, 01:43:22 AM
There was an Atlantic article not that long ago about the strong correlation between male homosexuality and having older brothers.  The theory goes that it's a weird autoimmune reaction of the mother's body to the male fetus, and each male fetus increases the odds of it occurring.  That is, while it is biologically rooted, it's (in purely biological, non-morally-normative terms, for lack of a better word) a kind of defect.  It would make more sense than gay uncles or heterozygously-boosted fashion sense winning over the ladies, etc.

The TG fight isn't that important in itself; it's simply one more culture-war proxy battle over who gets to say what it means to be human.  Would say more but kids need putting to bed.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 02:54:03 AM
Glad to see you back.

How is that weird autoimmune reaction, if so, not simply a mechanism for triggering gay uncles according to my theory?  Seems to fit together fine, to me...

And I'd say there's something to that proxy war thing you say, but more of it's as simple as it looks - one side finds trans people weird and disturbing and challenging to perceptions of reality (and the name/pronoun problem if you care about courtesy is irritating) versus the left crowd going "it takes all kinds, respect difference, sucks to be them - let's cut 'em a break".  That it's lining up along predictable lines is just the world we're stuck in currently; EVERYthing's a culture war these days.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on May 02, 2016, 03:59:43 AM
Okay, there's something I've been wanting to say for several days now. I can't say it in either of the threads at CFC because I'd be infracted for "debating".

I belong to a couple of petition sites (not THE "Petition Site; that one is associated with a scam organization) and the other day someone sent me one to sign about funding for transgender people to get stuff to help them feel more whatever gender it is that they say they are.

Normally I don't have an issue with this sort of thing, but the way the letter was worded really angered me. Yes, there are social issues, and it's difficult with employment, housing, etc. But do NOT tell me that a transgender woman wanting fake breasts to "feel/look more feminine" or a transgender man wanting something for breast binding is in any way comparable to a diabetic needing insulin or a paraplegic needing a wheelchair.

A diabetic will die without insulin. A transgender woman will not die without fake breasts. A paraplegic can't just get up and walk around; chances are the person can't feed him/herself, and may have trouble even speaking. It's not remotely the same thing, and is offensive to even begin to say they're the same.

So I didn't sign the petition, and if that individual sends any more, I won't sign those either.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 04:02:53 AM
You can certainly say that here...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on May 02, 2016, 04:26:30 AM
It probably sounds intolerant, right? Well, I would probably have signed the petition if it hadn't made that ridiculous analogy with people who have more immediate life-threatening situations.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 04:46:56 AM
No, I see the logic...  Knowing you, it's certainly not because 'trannies are wrong and discusting and sinful'...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Lorizael on May 02, 2016, 12:09:06 PM
I wouldn't have signed the petition because I don't support things, and the analogy to life-saving medical interventions is clearly off, but transgendered folk generally suffer from a lower quality of life due to mental health problems. There are plenty of medical conditions out there which do nothing more than greatly reduce quality of life that we still feel the need to treat and pay for (via insurance), despite the fact that life-threatening illnesses are still a thing.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 02, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Glad to see you back.

How is that weird autoimmune reaction, if so, not simply a mechanism for triggering gay uncles according to my theory?  Seems to fit together fine, to me...

And I'd say there's something to that proxy war thing you say, but more of it's as simple as it looks - one side finds trans people weird and disturbing and challenging to perceptions of reality (and the name/pronoun problem if you care about courtesy is irritating) versus the left crowd going "it takes all kinds, respect difference, sucks to be them - let's cut 'em a break".  That it's lining up along predictable lines is just the world we're stuck in currently; EVERYthing's a culture war these days.

Re: autoimmune, we're used to thinking of biology as "the way things are designed" or "the way the genes make things," but really a lot of it (as the hosts of other autoimmune disorders indicates) is that our bodies are absurdly complicated machines, and sometimes things go awry, and there isn't any particular constructive "reason" for it.  We don't look for why evolution selected for some people to get lupus, or type 1 diabetes (though we do look into the causes of those things for the sake of curing them); the quest to know what causes homosexuality is all wrapped up in the desire to vindicate it as normal and healthy, and if it exists because having one recessive gay gene does something good, or what-have-you, that sounds better than if gays are just the equivalent of albinos.

Re: the TG, you're describing the superficial aspects of the thing.  Look at it this way: twenty years ago, gay marriage was a pie in the sky.  Even ten years ago, it was something of a long shot.  It arrived almost overnight, with many prominent people (including Obama and HRC) apparently changing their opinions 180 within about five years.  Now, immediately after Obergefell, there's a push for TG rights, which would have been deemed even more absurd not so long ago.  And it's pushing hard.  The question is not "what consequences will follow allowing this tiny minority to use the wrong bathroom" but "if we give into them on this, what new value change will be forced on us next?  And when and where will it end?"  These laws are a (vain) attempt by the red dog to pee on the hydrant so the blue dog will stay out of his territory.  They're trying to opt out of the broader revolution, whatever that is.

(edit for trivial typo that still bugged me)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 01:32:35 PM
[ninja'd.  -I'll get to that, E]

Hmm.  I would mention that I just don't understand trans and the whole thing makes me uncomfortable, and I get where the discriminators are coming from.

But I dunno, it strikes me as like the time in sixth grade I had a spontaneous nose bleed in class, and the other kids were giving me a lot of crap because they found my affliction disgusting, as if it was for their benefit, and I wasn't the one bleeding. from. his. face. and being humiliated for it because that wasn't bad enough.

Having profound personal identity issues has to suck beyond words, and I don't know that trans people would like me labeling them as afflicted, exactly, but I'd invite the religious/social conservatives without hesitation to see it that way, pointing out that discriminating against yon dude(?) in a dress is like heaping ashes on the heads of lepers instead of alms, and contrary to their cherished belief set...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 02, 2016, 03:27:27 PM
Seriously, it's not about the TGs themselves.  You can go weeks at a time, or longer, without ever knowingly encountering a TG person.  They're rarer than hens' teeth.  It's more about what goes along with them--that each social change is used as precedent for further social change, and comes with various policies and programs which will be used both to enact the desired change and to punish/marginalize dissenters.  Which is at the heart of this: the dissenters/discriminators feel, largely correctly, that they are having the rug pulled out from under their feet.  There is no discussion, no room for compromise, only "comply, or suffer."

To distill what this is really all about for them, imagine that your five-year-old daughter likes to play with action figures, dislikes dresses, etc.  You assume she is simply a tomboy.  School counselors, however, encourage her to consider the possibility that she might feel like she is more of a boy on the inside.  You protest, and are met with various administrators from various state bureaucracies suggesting threateningly that you might be creating a psychologically restrictive and damaging environment for your child.  The child's teachers and schoolmates (who have more progressive parents, and watch cartoons where a sympathetic trans character appears regularly) are all against you.  As you continue to fight, they cut ties, and stop inviting you to social events.  Eventually, around age ten, the authorities start talking to the girl about hormonal therapies.

The above is an extreme and even paranoid example, but I can tell you that it's a good example of what really worries them: that a progressive agenda, pushed by a cadre of government agencies and culture-forming institutions (news media, academia, entertainment), is going to quite simply hijack their society and undermine everything they believe in, and call them troglodytes and shun them if they try to fight back.  That is far scarier than a few isolated weirdoes tinkling in the wrong place.  And when people kindly explain to them that all their fears come from them being stupid ignorant bigots, that simply tells them they're right to be afraid.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: DrazharLn on May 02, 2016, 04:03:56 PM
Trans people suffer serious discrimination now, so serious that suicide is epidemic amongst trans people.

Advocating for continued discrimination against trans people because it protects against potential future discrimination against a currently powerful group (social conservatives) seems a bit odd.

Why not help the trans people now and trust that, actually, they don't want to steal yo kids, and if they do, your faction is much more powerful anyway.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 02, 2016, 04:10:37 PM
More powerful?  It's really not, and hasn't been for some time.  The situation is analogous to a Civ4 game where a recently-taken city is still 75% CultureA, but CultureB has taken over and built new temples, universities, etc. so that all the new culture being produced is CultureB.  The supposed power and influence of CultureA is simply inertia; it takes a long time for a group that's been ousted from power to completely lose its influence in this particular context.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 02, 2016, 04:38:52 PM
Okay, yes, they're more powerful than trans people by themselves, but the same is true of almost any other group, including librarians and left-handed dogcatchers.  Compared to trans people, gays, and their sundry allies--at this point, the national government and most large businesses are quite firmly on the social progress side, along with most major news outlets and even some private and ostensibly religious schools--the might of social conservatives is laughable.  They've been fighting defensively for fifty years; this is merely the latest front they've been forced to retreat from.  There will be a different one in another five years, most likely polyamorists, assuming no thermidorean reaction.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 02, 2016, 04:43:15 PM
I'm going to have a lot to say in reaction when my thoughts organize, but that's all true about the give 'em an inch -going both ways- and that the conservatives have been losing on the culture side longer than I've been alive -unabated since the Reagan Revolution began- even as the SOBs have been winning on the government side ever since, and little but.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2016, 03:11:29 AM
Re: autoimmune, we're used to thinking of biology as "the way things are designed" or "the way the genes make things," but really a lot of it (as the hosts of other autoimmune disorders indicates) is that our bodies are absurdly complicated machines, and sometimes things go awry, and there isn't any particular constructive "reason" for it.  We don't look for why evolution selected for some people to get lupus, or type 1 diabetes (though we do look into the causes of those things for the sake of curing them); the quest to know what causes homosexuality is all wrapped up in the desire to vindicate it as normal and healthy, and if it exists because having one recessive gay gene does something good, or what-have-you, that sounds better than if gays are just the equivalent of albinos.
Elok, this is how evolution works.  A mutation/variation pops up through something like the autoimmune problem, and most variations just make dead babies or mules - but if the 'mule' somehow reliably causes enough relatives to do enough better, evolution will select for it.  Relatives doing better = more babies from the same family with the autoimmune thing.

I'm not making a moral argument and I'm not interested in vindicating anything - I'm just trying to figure out why a trait that ought to breed out of the gene pool doesn't.  I can't refute the logic of that guy you read upthread or anything - And Yet, the historical trends/factors/circumstances I've identified connected to the (at least wide-spread, open) expression of homosexuality are a thing, and I don't think bearded husbands manging to breed (though that's a thing, too) begin to explain it.

What that autoimmune thing might be is a triggering mechanism for making gay uncles when there's a lot of uncles on hand.  Nature doesn't care what The Plan is, nature just cares what (ad-hoc, by accident) works somehow to make more viable babies who DO breed.

That's why sickle cell anemia has persisted in certain populations - it's not as bad as malaria, against which it confers some sizable advantage.  (It's a problem these days because they're not in Africa anymore and we have much better ways of fighting malaria now.)  If those albinos you mention had enough advantage against some new thing that persisted long enough and made many people dead, you'd see a lot more of them in whoever was around a few hundred years later...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 03, 2016, 08:51:46 AM
Okay, I get what you're saying, but my intended point is that it needn't have a reason at all.  It might simply be a relatively benign defect that happens for no good reason.  I mean, ALS/Lou Gehrig's disease really does seem to have a variety of genetic factors behind it, and all that does is inexorably kill you.  Likewise cystic fibrosis; I'm unaware of any evidence that there's an upside that keeps "drown in own chewy mucus" genes in the population (not that I've looked, and assuming it's genetic).  Albinism itself is a straight weakness with no advantage; it still happens in every race.  Now, all these things are much rarer than homosexuality, but they're also much more maladaptive.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2016, 01:55:32 PM
I'd rather be an albino, I think.

-And you know, I don't believe God made a deterministic universe, anyway.  There may be a Purpose and a Plan, but getting away from what Jesus told us about us, I doubt we have any inkling of the Plan when it comes to the beast and their fields - the mechanisms of creation appear to have a lot of chaos built in.  He built something considerably more complex than a Clockwork Universe.  You might get born gay, or albino, or with high-functioning autism - we all have challenges put in our path, and it's what you do with them that Matters...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 05, 2016, 04:15:06 PM
...WTH, Elok?  I bring theology into it and nothing to say? ;)...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 12, 2016, 04:56:09 AM
Note to self: talk about the latest Pat Mcrory bullcrap tomorrow.  -Weird day for me, folks.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on May 12, 2016, 06:50:01 PM
...WTH, Elok?  I bring theology into it and nothing to say? ;) ...

I didn't think I had a lot to say to that, honestly.  Orthodoxy is panentheistic; creation is not an independent clockwork into which God intermittently shoves His hand to give things a push, but a perpetual expression of God's creative energies.  God continuously pervades and sustains the universe.  Sin and consequent death are something like an autoimmune reaction (geez, I'm bringing those up a lot in this thread), where disorder stems from the parts rebelling against the order of the whole which sustains them.  Or so I understand it.

If you want to theologize things like ALS or cystic fibrosis, they would be specific manifestations of the generalized decay and ruin of the world.  How transsexuality fits into all that, I don't know.  I sometimes suspect much of our sexual and identity diversity is something akin to a culture-bound syndrome anyhow.  Which would make it neither an individual choice per se nor strictly deterministic, but something in between.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 12, 2016, 07:03:46 PM
I guess what I'm proposing is that -without trying to diminish God as I was taught to understand Him- He made it and knows everything for all time and all, but couldn't He have chosen not to peek at the end of the book?  (I made AC2 a living community, and I have a vision for it, but I constantly improvise according to developments - mostly, I've thought of what sort of thing I'd do if X happens, but it's always a juggle/dance and I guess that's part of the entertainment value I get back.)  To the extent He shoves His hand in -and I'm like you in thinking He doesn't all that much- maybe part of the charm of having us is He deliberately chooses not to know everything and how it ends, and tinkers rarely if at all.  (I would say Jesus was a major tinker, but that's a whole 'nother thing.)

After all, one of the most fundamental tenants of the faith is that We Don't And Can't Understand Him and His ways, not being big enough - and it follows logically that thinking He couldn't do anything, even limiting Himself or being dead for three days without being three, is foolish and arrogant...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2016, 01:50:21 AM
A florist caught between faith and financial ruin
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2016/0712/A-florist-caught-between-faith-and-financial-ruin (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2016/0712/A-florist-caught-between-faith-and-financial-ruin)

Quite sympathetic to the florist - and gentlemen, it's a KKKake deal, only we don't have any dolts (besides Dale) here, so we can actually kick this around like adults...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: ColdWizard on July 23, 2016, 02:41:06 AM
Quote
“I am guessing the amount of fees is going to be substantial, but I don’t have a specific number for you,” says Emily Chiang, legal director at ACLU of Washington.

“Litigation is a messy, expensive thing, which is why we typically urge people to settle cases,” she says.

Why does this sound like extortion to me?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 23, 2016, 02:45:26 AM
What is there to say, BUncle?  This is absurd; she plainly has no animus against homosexuals as such, and only objects to celebrating something against her beliefs.  There is no reason why there couldn't be a sensible exemption here, and no reason to believe in a slippery slope where allowing her to not provide flowers for a gay wedding will somehow lead to gays dangling from lampposts.

It sounds like extortion because, like many elements of modern law, it effectively is.  Not as horrible in its consequences as, say, the extortion of plea bargains, but still pretty bad.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2016, 02:50:21 AM
Fun fact, Elok - ninja'd, but doesn't change what I have to say beyond this line.

I think the nice church lady is probably wrong about what Jesus expects of her, that it's built into the basic rules of our country that she's at liberty to be wrong that way - and this case is just sad.  Somebody gets their rights abridged in an unfortunate way that matters profoundly to them no matter how you slice it, no matter what the outcome is.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on July 23, 2016, 06:42:52 AM
A florist caught between faith and financial ruin
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2016/0712/A-florist-caught-between-faith-and-financial-ruin (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2016/0712/A-florist-caught-between-faith-and-financial-ruin)

Quite sympathetic to the florist - and gentlemen, it's a KKKake deal, only we don't have any dolts (besides Dale) here, so we can actually kick this around like adults...

I am not sympathetic to the florist. While it's overkill to run her into financial ruin, the fact is that she's a hypocrite. Either you love your neighbor or you don't. I don't remember the bible making exemptions for ignoring that.

I used to have a craft business, making 3-D plastic canvas stuff - everything from fridge magnets to costume accessories, and a lot of Christmas decorations.

When someone asked me to do a custom order of angel ornaments for a Christmas tree, did I say, "I love you dearly, but I'm an atheist and would feel uncomfortable stitching these things"?

No, I did not. I decided to be a professional about it and asked her what colors she'd like for the hair color and trimming. Then I got busy and completed the work, and did a good job. Happy customer, I was paid, and no problems.

Either you serve the public, or you don't. And her statement that " “That’s like me telling Rob and Curt you can be gay, but once you leave your house you can no longer be gay.”" doesn't make sense. Religion is a choice. Whether or not a person is gay is biology.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 23, 2016, 01:19:25 PM
Without getting into whether or not her conscience conforms correctly to the dictates of Southern Baptist religion, which I know little of, we would generally allow a business owner to avoid doing commissioned work not consistent with his or her beliefs.  The KKKake example seems germane, and you could think of any number of others.  To say that it is not allowable in this particular case is to put ourselves in the awkward position of policing freedom of association based on differences in individuals' principles.  I'd say we need a compelling reason to get into that business.

The oft-made parallel to Jim Crow is bunkum; even the most die-hard progressive is unlikely to believe that there is a massive institutionalized agreement between business owners and the state to keep gays down.  These cases seem to represent occasional aberrations which could be accommodated with minimal trouble beyond the . . . seven dollars the plaintiffs say they spent finding a different florist.

The disparity in harm done to the respective sides is staggering.  On the one hand, feelings were hurt, and these two guys had a hassle finding another florist.  On the other, this lady lost her business and is being steadily driven into bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2016, 01:34:38 PM
Well right there, Elok - plenty to say.  I don't see an outcome in a situation like this were no one gets hurt, where somebody's rights aren't abridged.  Discrimination ain't cool, but forcing someone to act against their convictions ain't either.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Spacy on July 23, 2016, 05:05:34 PM
I personally really don't care. 

However, I see both sides.  Children (specifically middle and high school aged children) are often not mature enough to really understand the difference, and are in the process of discovering their own sexual identity.  I teach in poorer schools, and to give you an idea each of the past three years, at least one student has been kicked out for prostituting themselves.  These kids saw nothing wrong with it, and that attitude is not one that is conductive to a lot of things - but in particular towards really understanding and creating an identity.

As such, the Obama blanket statement is I think out of line.  It should be something more like "schools and impacted students should meet and discuss and come to a solution that is mutually acceptable". 

I know I have gone into ladies rooms before.  Not because I am a perv, or because I ID with that gender - but because men's rooms often don't have changing tables for changing my baby's diapers.  Nobody has ever minded knowing what I was doing - and yes, I have had a couple of interesting conversations with ladies while taking care of business, while they also took care of their business. 
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2016, 06:15:07 PM
My ultimate conclusion about the larger bathroom issue is that it's kind of profoundly silly on both sides - that is, that trans people of whatever stage have always -after some exploration and trial and error- chosen the bathroom that they deem suits them best, hoping they pass and don't get caught and whatever, and legislation in any direction changes absolutely nothing in the direct practical sphere of what bathroom any given trans person goes into.  Theoretically, it matters as to getting arrested or not if failing to pass, but I'll confidently assert that trans people always have been, and will always continue to be, -alas- far more concerned about getting -at least- beaten up.

It's only a gesture, whether a raised finger at the strange preverts in their dresses and their friends -as Elok rightly points out- or the ignorant bigots who can't see past the end of their genitals and embedded caveman mores thousands of years old that they wrongly assume are simple universal truth.  Gestures matter, but it's still a very foolish hill to fight over, possibly even for the trans people.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 23, 2016, 07:33:24 PM
Going back to the gay flowers, I don't believe it properly counts as "discrimination" in the sense we're accustomed to; her objection is clearly not to serving the clients themselves, as she has served one of them in a variety of capacities for years, knowing full well what he is.  The objection is to the wedding itself, i.e. the nature of the service provided.  This is a fine point, but I think it's relevant.  Courts have consistently recognized over the years that any artistic component whatever--all the way down to pole dancing and porno--renders something expressive and therefore protected.  A floral arrangement certainly counts as an artistic act in such a context, even if you leave out the religious element, which you shouldn't.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2016, 07:43:45 PM
And yet -and I'm partly arguing just to argue, I acknowledge- she put out a sign and offered her services to the public, and any way you slice it, it's a sort of discrimination - and where do you draw the won't-lead-to-hanging-from-lampposts line?

I should probably make a few remarks soon as the resident expert on things Southern Baptist soon - I discern some probable misconceptions in play...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Valka on July 23, 2016, 09:05:02 PM
Hm. I should say where my personal line would be drawn. Something like the KKK would fall under Canada's hate laws, and my cooperating with that would also put me in the category of violating them. So I won't. No swastikas, no anti-minority stuff, no advocating hate or violence or death.

Besides the fact that I honestly do believe that people like that are colossal wastes of oxygen and should find some other country to live in. Canada is multicultural, but we're not that multicultural.

There's a woman in Jasper, Alberta who made an appalling YT video apologizing to her mother for not believing her when she said the Holocaust was a hoax. Then she continues to blather on about how it's all a conspiracy and how the Nazis were really misunderstood and benign, and boo-hoo, her Canadian classmates were so MEAN when they teased her for wearing an apron on her first day of school...

This woman has been kicked out of the political party she tried to run for in the past. The Green Party does not welcome neo-Nazis, so if this woman wants to get into politics, her only option now is the federal Conservative Party of Canada, aka the Reformacons, as THEY take that sort... oops, but her video, which clearly violates the hate speech laws here, would make her unelectable. She's already been banned from the Legion in Jasper, and has a Human Rights Commission complaint filed against her.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2016, 09:09:49 PM
Ninja'd

...Let me point out, though, that by any reasonable Christian standard, being married by a judge is not a real marriage - is it?  Is it not tacit complicity in something against your beliefs to contribute to ANY wedding not before a preacher man of a denomination you don't find hopelessly blasphemous in its doctrine?  Like, flowers arrangements for a Christian Science-officiated wedding is wrong for the nice church lady, according to her own lights if only she'd thought it through.

I mean, marriage is a religious issue right? (A legal own-goal every time you shrill it out, social "conservatives") and that nice brown Hindu couple you know isn't really married, whether it's any of your business or not -and your uncle and his 'wife' who went before a judge are openly living in sin- or it's live and let live, and Mark and Steve's legal arrangement is really, REALLY none of your business.  You can't pick and choose about what Jesus, who I don't recall ever discussing what marriage is, wants.

Permit me to guarantee, for a woman I never met on the other side of the continent, that none of this would have ever come up in her sweet -and I discern, not terribly bright- head were it not for a lot of shouting and hard feelings to do with current events of recent years having come to her attention.  Her heart was big enough for the sweet gay guy who patronized her shop, and she'd have probably been shocked at he was marrying his boyfriend, but done what she always had - thought it was a pity a nice guy was that way, and tried not to think about it while she worked on the order...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 24, 2016, 04:52:16 AM
Again, I don't think our legal standards should depend on our parsing whether or not one party or the other's beliefs appear sensible or internally consistent.  She objects to providing the service.  The service is not critical--nobody will die without it, or even suffer significant measurable harm (hurt feelings are perfectly impossible to quantify).  In the absence of any other, more compelling consideration, that really should be end-of-story.  Forget the KKKake.  Suppose a wealthy ten-year-old, money-wielding butler in tow, goes into your bakery and asks for a cake with the word "FART!" on it in big neon-green letters.  You say no, because no.  I feel you should be legally allowed to leave it at that.  The law should not get into judging the relative merits of people's tastes, opinions or beliefs in such circumstances unless there is an overwhelmingly important reason for doing so, since it's impossible to create a fair and objectively measurable standard which applies to every case in a clear way.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 24, 2016, 01:57:13 PM
You know, if it was a restaurant and black at issue, people get terribly het up about that, and I don't know that they shouldn't - and I doubt any of us would be interested in kicking it around.

There's probably a reasonable line, but where is it?
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 24, 2016, 02:57:47 PM
Taken as groups, homosexuals are vastly better off than black people today, let alone in 1960.  If a black man walked into a bakery in Alabama in 1960 and asked for a cake that said, "We shall overcome!  Black is beautiful," I would give that man less than a week before the Klan strung him and his family up, and burned down his house.  If a gay man asks for a wedding cake today, even without any law preventing the baker from refusing . . . the gay man may have to find another bakery.  Violence against homosexuals is distressingly common, but the very nature of gayness (a transracial, synthetic community born from typically straight unions), together with host of other factors, makes a systematic persecution comparable to Jim Crow highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 24, 2016, 03:04:34 PM
I dunno that any system but zero tolerance of discrimination makes sense from a secular POV view, man.  (That's the futility of the faithful involving themselves in Caesar's worldly government - it only leads to strife, never manages to make things more godly, only cheapens the public behavior of the faithful and gets them in bed with horrible people, and makes the devout look like bigots and jerks, not least 'cause that's how the politically-active ones end up behaving in public.  Dr. Dobson endorsed the Pig the other day.)

Suppressing the impulse to bring up some extreme-case hypotheticals...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: BU Admin on July 25, 2016, 01:55:22 AM
The management regrets to note that a we have a member abusing the report system.

Rules lawyers are not licensed to practice at AC2, as per publicly-announced policy, and further attempts to game the system will not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 30, 2016, 02:44:24 AM
I was asked to share this from the presidential thread I've embellished some pronouns for clarity -

[Gary Johnson is taking flack today from both the TheoCons and the Libertarians. The issue is "Religious Liberty". The subject came up in a recent interview or two. Gary took some heat for standing up for the '64 Civil Rights Act in a debate at the Libertarian Convention this year. Purist Libertarians believe that the government has no right to tell you what you can do on your own property, or penalize you for what you think or say.

TheoCons seem to disregard the Golden Rule, and use the term "Religious Liberty" to deny services to people they don't approve of, or refuse services they don't approve of - Pharmacists denying birth control pills because they believe life begins at conception, Doctors refusing to perform abortions and sterilizations, County Clerks denying marriage licenses to same sex couples, Social workers denying them adoptions, businesses denying various service to gays.

Gary's thinking is that religious based discrimination is still discrimination, which is wrong. If you can discriminate against sinners, why not other religions, too? First the gays, then the Muslims. Where does it end?

Maybe somebody might  think it's not a problem in the age of social media, but then maybe they  haven't lived rural where there's a lack of goods and services, much less competition, or been stranded while traveling. ]
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 30, 2016, 03:05:19 AM
I read this in a political context, but it appears relevant-

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/magazine/what-are-the-limits-of-religious-liberty.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/magazine/what-are-the-limits-of-religious-liberty.html?_r=0)

What Are the Limits of ‘Religious Liberty’?

First Words
By EMILY BAZELON  JULY 7, 2015

‘‘I can’t. It’s against my religion.’’ Americans tend to handle religious objections with care, personally and politically. When a guest says, for example, that he can’t eat the food being served because it’s not kosher or halal, the host usually hastens to find an alternative. And when people resist following a law on the basis of faith, the government and the courts may try to accommodate them. It’s an American legacy that dates back to before the founding, when some of the original colonies were set up as havens for religious dissenters. Under the banner of belief, Quakers and Mennonites in the 18th century won the right not to join state militias. The first conscientious objectors were religious objectors, and from there, the category expanded to include moral opponents of war. The same pattern holds for home-schoolers. It was an Amish father, not a hippie mother, who first got the Supreme Court’s permission to take his children out of school in 1972, based on his religious commitment to ‘‘life aloof from the world,’’ as the justices respectfully put it.

Making exceptions to the law for people of faith has become part of the American definition of religious tolerance, part of our ethos of live and let live. It has also helped keep the peace in a polyglot nation. In France, it’s illegal for a Muslim woman to wear a head scarf at a public school. In the United States, it’s illegal for a clothing store to refuse to hire a Muslim woman because she wore a head scarf to her job interview. When the Supreme Court issued that ruling last month, eight of nine justices agreed that Samantha Elauf, who lost out on a job at Abercrombie Kids because of a companywide policy banning head coverings, was asking for ‘‘favored treatment’’ — to which she was entitled by federal employment law. ‘‘This is really easy,’’ Justice Antonin Scalia said, announcing the decision from the bench.

And yet we’ve arrived at an unfortunate impasse over the meaning of religious liberty. Unlike in earlier eras, when religious objections let the faithful separate themselves from institutions they felt they could not support, many conservatives now deploy the phrase as a way of excluding other people. Take the furious outcry that erupted in response to the Supreme Court’s 5-to-4 decision to make same-sex marriage legal in every state. Conservative pushback began with the dissenting justices: Clarence Thomas warned of ‘‘potentially ruinous consequences for religious liberty.’’ Some Republican officeholders rushed to throw up whatever shield they could for people of faith. Two states have declared that county clerks may refrain from issuing marriage licenses if they don’t want to give them to gay couples as a matter of conscience. Bakers, photographers and florists — and adoption agencies and landlords — who cite their religion when refusing to serve gay couples won assurances like this one from Greg Abbott, governor of Texas: ‘‘No Texan is required by the Supreme Court’s decision to act contrary to his or her religious beliefs regarding marriage.’’

The same-sex-marriage resisters hope to capitalize on a recent expansion of religious liberties, in another big case about modern-day sexual norms. In a divisive 5-to-4 ruling last year, the Supreme Court extended to a company, and not just to individuals, the right to mount a religious objection to a law. The craft-store chain Hobby Lobby, which is owned by evangelicals, refused to pay for certain forms of birth control for its female employees, as the Affordable Care Act requires. The owners argued that providing health insurance that covered emergency contraception and IUDs offended their evangelical beliefs, saying these methods induce abortions (by taking effect after fertilization). Hobby Lobby had little scientific support for that assertion. By contrast, in defending the contraception mandate, the Obama administration could cite the consensus medical view that providing a variety of birth-control methods benefits women’s health. Nonetheless, the court sided with Hobby Lobby and its sense of conscience.

The court’s decision led to a burst of feminist outrage, but Hobby Lobby didn’t face a sustained boycott. And so it was surprising when another push for religious objection crashed into a wall of public condemnation earlier this year. Legislators in Indiana and Arkansas expected a smooth ride for their versions of a bill called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The first law by that name was passed by Congress in 1993 by huge, bipartisan margins. R.F.R.A. established a balancing test that remains in effect: When someone complains that a federal law substantially burdens his or her free exercise of religion, the government must show that it has a compelling interest in applying that law.

The R.F.R.A.s proposed in Indiana and Arkansas were more expansive: They would have allowed people and corporations to bring religious-liberty claims against one another, as well as the government. But that change didn’t really explain why Indiana and Arkansas found themselves on the wrong side of the culture wars; the context did. The new religious-liberty bills appeared to be shielding businesses that didn’t want to serve gay couples, who had recently won the right to marry in Indiana. ‘‘If a gay couple came in and wanted us to provide pizzas for their wedding, we would have to say no,’’ Crystal O’Connor, an owner of Memories Pizza in Walkerton, Ind., told a local news station. This time, the boycott materialized, and Memories Pizza temporarily shut its doors (supporters also raised more than $800,000 on the owners’ behalf). When major companies threatened to pull up stakes in Indiana and Arkansas, the states retreated, altering their religious-freedom bills.

Following the Supreme Court’s marriage ruling, religious objections to serving gay couples are mounting in more states. Invoking religious liberty in this way presents ‘‘special concerns’’ by prolonging social conflict, according to a recent article by two law professors, Reva B. Siegel of Yale and Douglas NeJaime now of U.C.L.A. School of Law. They point to the aftermath of Roe v. Wade: After the Supreme Court ruling legalized abortion throughout the country, Congress and state legislatures ensured that a doctor, nurse or other health care professional could refuse to participate in providing an abortion as a matter of conscience. Over the decades, these ‘‘conscience clauses’’ expanded in some states to include counseling, referral and pharmaceutical services, allowing people who fill prescriptions, for example, to exert a form of social control in the name of their own religious freedom.

The muscle of the conservative Christian movement, Siegel and NeJaime argue, enhances its ‘‘power to demean.’’ Women who have been refused abortion services report feeling judged and mortified. Gay couples turned away by wedding vendors say the same. ‘‘The phrase ‘religious liberty’ has become an overused talisman,’’ the Indiana University law professor Steve Sanders told me. ‘‘Most of the invocations lately have nothing to do with actual infringements of free exercise. They’re about political and cultural dissent from gay rights.’’

All of this is making longtime proponents of religious liberty nervous. Douglas Laycock, a law professor at the University of Virginia, has helped write state religious freedom bills and supported the ones that foundered in Indiana and Arkansas. But in an article last year, he issued a warning to evangelical leaders. ‘‘It is a risky step to interfere with the most intimate details of other people’s lives while loudly claiming liberty for yourself,’’ Laycock wrote. ‘‘If you stand in the way of a revolution and lose, there will be consequences.’’

Refusing to serve customers has an ugly history. A half-century ago, the civil rights movement held lunch-counter sit-ins to protest Jim Crow. No one succeeded then in claiming a God-given right to refuse to serve black customers. Throughout the South, businesses open to the public became open to all. Today, in the name of religious liberty, there is robust Southern opposition to same-sex marriage. But supporters say the analogy to the exclusions of Jim Crow is inapt, because racial segregation was never central to Christian teaching the way traditional marriage has been. They also correctly point out that strong national laws protect against discrimination on the basis of race, but not against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In many states, in the South and elsewhere, a business or a landlord doesn’t need a special faith-based reason for turning away a gay client or tenant. They’re simply free to do so.

Given the speed with which public support for same-sex marriage is growing, gay people may win other rights against discrimination. But what about private religious schools and social-service organizations? ‘‘Hard questions’’ will arise, Chief Justice John Roberts predicted in his dissent from the same-sex marriage ruling, when, ‘‘for example, a religious college provides married student housing only to opposite-sex married couples, or a religious adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex couples.’’

In the Senate and the House of Representatives, dozens of Republicans quickly signed on to a bill that would protect the tax-exempt status of a religious organization in such a situation and prevent any government action against a business that refused to serve a gay couple. On both sides of this fight, tolerance no longer seems to be the word of the day. ‘‘The religious resisters say, ‘It doesn’t matter if you can have the wedding you want, because you shouldn’t be getting married anyway,’ ’’ Laycock said over the phone last week. ‘‘The gay rights people answer, ‘It doesn’t matter if you violate your conscience, because you’re just talking to your imaginary friend.’ ’’ When basic values and rights collide, usually somebody wins and somebody loses. It becomes difficult to find mutual compassion, even if that would be the godly thing to do.




Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 30, 2016, 03:25:38 AM
I'm kind of exhausted by this argument, TBH.  If you haven't seen what I'm getting at thus far, I don't see anything else I can say, beyond: requiring a business owner to provide a non-vital service contrary to conscience, with no measurable damages done by refusal, is in effect to say that the rights to freedom of belief and expression may be superseded if said expression causes nothing but unquantifiable emotional distress.  This is the most trivial grounds for overruling possible, short of doing it arbitrarily for funsies.  It is to say, first, that the state has the right to intervene selectively based on perceived merits of individual beliefs rather than the neutral weighting of the needs of society as a whole, and second that freedom of conscience exists at the pleasure of the state in general.  This is a very bad precedent to set, especially over something as trivial as flowers and cake.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 30, 2016, 03:40:13 AM
I think I am going to have to bring up some extreme case hypotheticals, then.  Too sleepy right now, though...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 30, 2016, 07:38:26 AM
Okay, I'm up to speed on the thread, having re-read the whole thing.

I'm kind of exhausted by this argument, TBH.  If you haven't seen what I'm getting at thus far, I don't see anything else I can say, beyond: requiring a business owner to provide a non-vital service contrary to conscience, with no measurable damages done by refusal, is in effect to say that the rights to freedom of belief and expression may be superseded if said expression causes nothing but unquantifiable emotional distress.  This is the most trivial grounds for overruling possible, short of doing it arbitrarily for funsies.  It is to say, first, that the state has the right to intervene selectively based on perceived merits of individual beliefs rather than the neutral weighting of the needs of society as a whole, and second that freedom of conscience exists at the pleasure of the state in general.  This is a very bad precedent to set, especially over something as trivial as flowers and cake.

1) Gayness. I think it's most likely a result of the effect of hormones and hormone imbalances on brain development during stress pregnancies. So prenatal environmental rather than genetic/evolutionary.
Something like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_spectrum_disorder

2) Church Lady with a florist business.
A) I think the discrimination suit should only apply to her business, not her, personally. That's the big one.
B) I think that being open to the public for business is different than your home. For example- I should be required to feed everybody who can pay at my restaurant, but not in my home. I should be able to write my own menu, but I don't get to decide who gets to order which food.
C) So I think the judge was right to tell her that if she doesn't want to serve gay weddings, she should drop all wedding services.
D) In this case I think there is more room to bend. Assuming ( I get these impressions about the case) a) She is not a monopoly: there's another Florist within 5 miles, b) She is a small family business, which I define as  she and her family employees are not outnumbered by non-family employees,  and as such her personal beliefs are those of the business -  then her mental anguish and that of the gay couple are "canceled out" and the judge should throw out the case.

3) Bake the cake and give them a tube of icing so that they can write on it themselves if they or their inscription offends you. See also #2.

4) I take your point Elok, about this being a backlash to the government using coercion in telling people what or how to think. Sometimes they feel forced to make a stand, and better sooner than later.

5) I think Christians would have a lot better time of it if we all prioritized things Christ is quoted as saying, such as  - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, & love your neighbor as yourself. -  instead of bits of the Old Testament.

6) Or if instead of refusing him she had simply testified that she thought her customer would be imperiling his immortal soul with such a ceremony, he might have looked elsewhere.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 30, 2016, 11:59:46 AM
Oh, there are probably ways to fight this, starting with a sign that says "I will donate all proceeds from gay wedding cakes--before cost of ingredients and labor--to an anti-gay lobbying group."  At present I think they're still proceeding under the assumption that it's possible to remain even remotely respectable members of society instead of an utterly reviled sub-caste.

I can't think of any circumstance where it makes sense for the government to rule on anybody's "mental anguish" as such.  Such things are by nature vague and impossible to measure, as well as being the most evanescent type of damage.  Lost money, physical injury, a drop in sales, property damage, doctored nudie photos of you with a monkey on the internet--whatever, it's all legit.  It's when you get the state trying to rule on whose feelings were more greatly offended that you've entered the hazy realm of the absurd.  That's utterly subjective, and there's no ceiling on it.

#5 is a POV that would make sense if they prioritized being liked over having what they considered the correct beliefs.  I don't think they do, but that's beside the point.  The First Amendment exists to protect unpopular beliefs: Quakers and Catholics years ago, Mormons and peyote-using Indians today.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 30, 2016, 07:31:31 PM
It's interesting that you're so adamant on this.  -Not to be an innerwebs nurd arguing, but I think the point I made at the top of this page about sundry modes of marriage -a religious point, not a legal one, the religious angle being an own-goal, legally, on the face of it- is worth consideration, and I'd be interested in seeing it addressed...



Strikes me that if I was the Washington Attorney General, I'd call up the ACLU and ask them to step off, observing that I wasn't inclined to continue any official action unless the private legal harassment stopped.  I do completely agree that it's all too much and wrong to ruin this poor woman so thoroughly over this.  -That's different than thinking society's interest in forbidding discrimination isn't a profound one, and arguments to the contrary are a bit Rat Sorbet...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 30, 2016, 09:46:40 PM
My point is that *this is not discrimination*, at least not in any relevant sense.  The objection is clearly not to serving gay customers in general, but in providing a very specific service which implies participation in a morally objectionable activity.

That gay marriage is a part of gay identity is, to me, not relevant--the two are not identical, and there is no indication that these businesses would refrain from offering gay patrons any other service (nor are they asking for that right).

That this bears a superficial resemblance to Jim Crow is not relevant, as there are more than enough differences between the two to render that resemblance meaningless.  A customer from a disadvantaged demographic group goes into a store, is declined service.  The truthful similarities, without equivocation, begin and end there.  The cynical mining of a dark time in American history to beat down the losing side in a culture war spat disgusts me.

That the store owners' beliefs may appear inconsistent or nonsensical is not relevant; we apply that test to no other religious or expressive exemption.  The only relevant factor is the degree to which the claimed exemption would inconvenience others--hence we allow religious groups to do any number of bizarre things, but draw the line at handling poison snakes.  Because handling poison snakes could hurt people; the fact that it's a daft thing to do (and based entirely on an over-literal interpretation of one line from Mark) is of no importance.  That is simply not how our Constitutional rights work.

That their behavior may appear or be construed as hateful is irrelevant; there's no chance on earth that a crucifix submerged in pee was not intended purely to offend and disgust, but we still recognize that, as artistic expression, it occupies a privileged space which we will respect and defend regardless.

I am adamant about this because it is bullying disguised as protecting the powerless, wrapped in bad logic and pushed hardest by people who despise me just as much as these misguided (and thoroughly harmless) shopkeepers.  And because it represents yet another push away from individual liberty and towards the custodial state, which now grants itself the power to regulate utterly intangible, hence immeasurable and unfalsifiable, offenses.  And it's progressives--I refuse to call them liberal any longer--pushing it.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 30, 2016, 09:55:42 PM
Oh, I forgot to make a comment on the premise of the thread. The common sense approach to the thread premise is simply to raise the penalties for committing crimes in public restrooms, whatever they are. That deterrent helps protect everyone.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 31, 2016, 01:22:03 AM
When I got married back in '09, my folks sprang for a cake from a very nice bakery--the guy who ran it used to be pastry chef at the Watergate.  That was a good frickin' cake, lemme tell you.  Raspberry buttercream between every layer.  I sat down with the man and his wife and discussed what I'd like for it beforehand, to establish a price, etc.

If, for some reason, he had told me he could not make it because of some aspect of my marriage he disliked--my wife, my religion, me, whatever--I would have thought he was a knob, and gone off to get a cake from somebody else.  The idea of threatening him with a lawsuit because he wouldn't create a pastry for me would have struck me as absurd.  I'm not superstitious, but why on earth would I want part of my wedding done by someone who reviled the whole thing, and only did it under fear of ruin by the law?  Better to have no cake at all.  I cannot believe such things are done out of any motives other than spite or vengeance.  The law should not be a vehicle for people to vent their wounded pride by ruining their personal enemies, whatever the provocation.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 31, 2016, 01:47:33 AM
Oh, no doubt at all about that - and CSM piece seemed pretty clear that the fellow was pressured into it by political crusaders...
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 31, 2016, 11:29:39 PM
So Elok, I can be pretty thick, but it's finally penetrated that you keep allowing as you don't much want to talk about this and, much as I'd like to understand where you're coming better, I'm basically dropping it as far as you're concerned.  I don't want to be That Guy - I respect you too much, for one thing.  The whole business -flowers and bathrooms alike- sucks for everyone; we agree on that.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Elok on July 31, 2016, 11:50:26 PM
It's more that it sucks me in and makes me angry, and I want to avoid getting myself worked up.  But thank you.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 01, 2016, 12:20:21 AM
It makes me feel unhappy and kind of sick at heart myself - avoiding being angry, I totally get, and yeah; I didn't want to seem to accuse/attack/condescend, and so left that part out, but you seemed angry.  Being angry sucks and blah blah blah.  Peace out, Y'all!
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Bearu on August 01, 2016, 02:33:14 PM
I think we found a psychological trigger for Elok, and the presence of a safe space would help to alleviate the traumatic effects of the subject.   :D
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 01, 2016, 02:35:31 PM
Hey man - don't.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 14, 2016, 11:53:38 PM
Quote
#GayUnclesDay (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/gayunclesday?source=whfrt&position=3&trqid=6318820216915339350): Hashtag Campaign Encourages Making Aug. 14 a Day to Celebrate Gay Uncles
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 12, 2017, 05:02:10 PM
Quote
Having older brothers increases men's likelihood of being gay
By Jen Christensen, CNNUpdated 6:42 AM ET, Tue December 12, 2017


Story highlights
Scientists say mothers who have more than one boy had higher concentrations of a certain protein
Earlier studies have noticed that gay men often have older brothers



 (CNN) — If you're a guy with an older brother, there's an increased chance you're gay.

Scientists have noticed this pattern in previous research, but now they think they have a biological explanation as to why, and it starts long before birth. The results were published in the journal PNAS on Monday.

The researchers say that if their findings can be replicated, we may know at least one of the biological reasons some men are gay.

Many factors may determine someone's sexual orientation, but in this case, researchers noticed a pattern that may be linked to something that happens in the womb. The phenomenon is related to a protein linked to the Y chromosome (which women do not have) that is important to male brain development.

Researchers think it's possible that when a woman gets pregnant with her first boy, this Y-linked protein gets into her bloodstream. The mother's body recognizes the protein as a foreign substance, and her immune system responds, creating antibodies. If enough of these antibodies build up in the woman's body and she gets pregnant with another a boy, they can cross the placental barrier and enter the brain of the second male fetus.

"That may alter the functions in the brain, changing the direction of how the male fetus may later develop their sense of attraction," said study author Anthony Bogaert, a Canadian psychologist and professor in the departments of psychology and community health sciences at Brock University.

Earlier research has shown that the more older brothers a boy has, the more of a chance that boy will be attracted to men. A 2006 study showed that with each brother, the chance that a man will be gay goes up by about a third, but the researchers didn't determine why that was.

Bogaert and his co-authors tested a small group of 142 women and 12 men ages 18 to 80 and found a higher concentration of antibodies to the protein, known as NLGN4Y, in blood samples from women than from men. They found the highest concentration of antibodies to the protein in women with gay younger sons who had older brothers, compared with women who had no sons or who had given birth to only heterosexual boys.

The study builds on research Bogaert and his co-authors have been exploring for more than 20 years. Since their initial research that noted the trend, other research -- although not all studies -- have detected the phenomenon, even across cultures. One found that a man's chances of being gay increased even if he was raised apart from his older brother.

Researchers did not see a similar pattern in families with adopted brothers, so scientists started to think there must be a maternal developmental explanation. The research does not give a biological explanation for why some men may be bisexual or may not be attracted to anyone at all, nor can it give a biological explanation for gay only children, gay oldest sons or women who are attracted to women.

J. Michael Bailey, a professor in the Department of Psychology at Northwestern University, thinks the latest research is important. "It is significant, and I believe science granting agencies should put a high priority into additional research to see if this is true," he said.

Bailey was not involved in the new study but has worked on studies that have found genetic factors that may explain some differences in sexual orientations.

Bailey's latest paper, published this month in the journal Nature Research (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-15736-4), looked at people's genomes and found several regions with single-letter DNA changes that were more common among gay men than straight men and may be relevant to the development of sexual orientation. Bailey believes this new study may be even more significant than general genetic findings if the findings can be replicated.

"Our studies only show that there may be genes that matter in sexual orientation," he said. "It is not like this study, that shows there is a potential specific mechanism by which sexual orientation may have changed prenatally. This is important work and fascinating if it proves to be true."

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/health/men-older-brothers-gay-study/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/11/health/men-older-brothers-gay-study/index.html)
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 12, 2017, 05:36:05 PM
We have a transgender man working here now, and the bathroom issue has come up at work.  Corporate position:  Whatever he wants to use. 

Workforce is very mixed on this.  I've seen him in both, which initially surprised me, but I think it's more a prefers the women's room but will use the mens if the womens is full situation than a 'today I feel like a man'. 

Personally couldn't care less, he's a nice guy and helps me make my boss uncomfortable. 

Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Spacy on December 13, 2017, 01:15:07 AM
Everybody pees and poos.
I doubt anybody has not seen the bits and pieces before (even if just on an underwear commercial).
And it is among the last places anybody would want to pick someone else up (unless they got some odd fetish).

Really, I find it hard to believe outside a school (where, you have to consider the maturity level of the student population) that it is an issue.
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 13, 2017, 01:32:11 AM
And it is among the last places anybody would want to pick someone else up (unless they got some odd fetish).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottaging
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Geo on December 13, 2017, 04:55:06 PM
And it is among the last places anybody would want to pick someone else up (unless they got some odd fetish).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottaging

 ;lol ;b;


Having older brothers increases men's likelihood of being gay

I'm the eldest!  ;woohoo
Title: Re: Transgender bathrooms?
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 17, 2025, 03:57:08 PM
...Let me point out, though, that by any reasonable Christian standard, being married by a judge is not a real marriage - is it?  Is it not tacit complicity in something against your beliefs to contribute to ANY wedding not before a preacher man of a denomination you don't find hopelessly blasphemous in its doctrine?  Like, flowers arrangements for a Christian Science-officiated wedding is wrong for the nice church lady, according to her own lights if only she'd thought it through.

I mean, marriage is a religious issue right? (A legal own-goal every time you shrill it out, social "conservatives") and that nice brown Hindu couple you know isn't really married, whether it's any of your business or not -and your uncle and his 'wife' who went before a judge are openly living in sin- or it's live and let live, and Mark and Steve's legal arrangement is really, REALLY none of your business.  You can't pick and choose about what Jesus, who I don't recall ever discussing what marriage is, wants.
Hey Elok - I think maybe I've given you reasonable time to cool off --- I'd really like a response to this point, leaving aside the issue it was embedded in...
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