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Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Unorthodox on December 09, 2015, 01:30:50 PM

Title: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 09, 2015, 01:30:50 PM

Little less frivolous today. 

Uno's view:  I don't have the answer. 

I'm a citizen, yet the US Govt has armed me on occasion to act as site security over military assets, thus I've received and passed situational training.  I don't presently own a gun, but was brought up using guns, and now that we have a safe we will be getting the guns to fill it.

Taking guns away:

It's not an end all solution, and a pipe dream in the US.  The Black and Grey market is prolific and so rooted it's all but impossible to shut down. 

Concealed Carry:

Could be good or bad, I've seen concealed carry "classes" that amount to proving you have a gun, to ones that actually had situational training. 

Open Carry:

Mostly got the idea from my trip to Montana.  Always saw someone wearing a sidearm everywhere I went.  It was a little strange at first, but also acts as a deterrent.  Utah has open carry laws, but no one takes advantage of them and it's socially questionable. 

Better screening:

Cost prohibitive most likely. 

Enforcing existing screening:

It's VERY simple to get around existing screening.  I won't share more here/now. 

Education:

Don't know about violence, but I think we could solve some of the accidental deaths with some gun education.  Wouldn't mind seeing general gun safety in schools, personally. 

Other:  Have at it. 

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Yitzi on December 09, 2015, 02:42:33 PM

The most effective way to stop gun violence is probably to eliminate all guns in the country...that's not really feasible, though.

I'd say the best bet is a mix of enforcing existing screening (and closing any loopholes in it), and changing mental health laws to lock up at least many of the actually crazy people without allowing for abuse.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 09, 2015, 03:52:47 PM

Define "actually crazy". 

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Yitzi on December 09, 2015, 05:19:18 PM

Quote from: Unorthodox on December 09, 2015, 03:52:47 PM

Define "actually crazy".

Having any delusion or obsession due to mental disorder that makes themselves a danger to themselves or others, or unable to take care of themselves.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: ColdWizard on December 09, 2015, 05:34:35 PM

Probably a bit of everything listed plus a robust mental health system capable of preventing the fringe cases, rehabilitating the dangerous, and securing the ones that can't be rehabilitated.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Rusty Edge on December 09, 2015, 11:03:03 PM

I don't think you can ever stop it, but there's a lot that could be done about it, in no particular order.

End the War on Drugs. In my city it's a repeat of Prohibition, enriching criminals and causing turf wars that result in cars, houses and neighborhoods being shot up. The people that do this often operate at night, and they make mistakes as to who and where. So kids and other innocent bystanders get killed. Making laws about guns won't make a difference. Theses are outlaws who get their drugs and guns illegally.

The US has a mental healthcare problem. It's too quick to rely on dubious meds. I don't know the answer ( to mental health care), but I'm pretty sure that if this could be addressed, gun violence wouldn't be the problem it is.

I'm not a handgun guy, but I don't have a problem with licensed concealed carry, or open carry. I've had open carry people in my home. I've been to Alaska. I once read the words that any man under your power is also under your protection. I think that people who declare weapons free zones should provide security. Cruise ships, theme parks, airports, stadiums and civic arenas do that. Movie theaters, churches, schools and workplaces, not so much. They seem to be the places where killing sprees take place. I think if off duty and retired law officers were allowed to carry concealed wherever they went, the shooters would kill fewer people, and would be more reluctant to even attempt it.

I often remember a CNN interview with Ross Perot, before any petitions were circulated to get him on the ballot in all 50 states.  The journalist was trying to trip him up with controversial questions, even though the purpose of the appearance was about fiscal issues or something. Perot shot from the hip with "Crazy people shouldn't have guns, and people who use their guns to threaten others shouldn't be allowed to keep them."

That seemed to be so sensible at the time, and still does.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

Gun control is a great way to increase crime and gun violence in the country. Anyplace you have harsh gun control in the US or for that matter in countries like the UK or Australia you have high crime as a result. Just take a look at France to see the result of gun confiscation.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 10, 2015, 01:31:06 PM

Quote from: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

Gun control is a great way to increase crime and gun violence in the country. Anyplace you have harsh gun control in the US or for that matter in countries like the UK or Australia you have high crime as a result. Just take a look at France to see the result of gun confiscation.

France has better crime rates than the US...

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Valka on December 10, 2015, 02:09:42 PM

Quote from: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 02:36:00 AM

Gun control is a great way to increase crime and gun violence in the country. Anyplace you have harsh gun control in the US or for that matter in countries like the UK or Australia you have high crime as a result. Just take a look at France to see the result of gun confiscation.

Uh-huh... that's why I'm likelier to be knifed than shot if I'm dumb enough to wander the wrong part of town after dark.

Yes, Canada has gun control. Most of us abide by it, and are croggled by American gun worship. One of the most bizarre things I ever read was about an American cop and his wife who were in Calgary (90 minutes south of here) during the Stampede. They were taking a walk, and a small group of young men happened by. The most common question during Stampede is "Have you been to the Stampede yet?" and for some reason the cop was completely outraged and freaked because these guys had dared to speak to him. He started ranting at them, and later he wrote an incredibly whiny letter to the Calgary Herald (newspaper) belaboring his outrage at having been asked a perfectly normal and civil question, and stating that he really wished he'd had his gun with him.

Good thing people like him aren't allowed to bring their guns across the border. Those young men might have been killed by this gun-happy cop, for the crime of being polite to a couple of tourists.

He didn't get much sympathy from Canadians who read his letter. The collective reaction was  ::) .


My dad had rifles, but he used them to hunt moose in the fall, and in case we had any bobcats coming too close to the house. He never shot a human in his life.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 10, 2015, 02:11:23 PM

Croggled may be my word of the day...

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: gwillybj on December 10, 2015, 03:54:56 PM

I checked Education, as that is how I grew up around hunting rifles. "Never point a gun at a man unless you intend to shoot him; never shoot a man unless you intend to kill him." It sounds a little lighthearted but it was the very first thing my father told me about guns. It was another two days of discussion and demonstration before I was allowed to touch one.
I might have checked All of the Above if that had been an option, because all or any of those approaches could work in some way.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 07:14:14 PM

Quote

France has better crime rates than the US...

France is also far smaller. Its a clear correlation. Ban guns, crime skyrockets. Just look at Australia or the UK.
Also no one is stupid enough to try a gun grab in the USA it would cause a civil war.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 10, 2015, 07:32:22 PM

Quote from: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 07:14:14 PM

Quote

France has better crime rates than the US...

France is also far smaller. Its a clear correlation. Ban guns, crime skyrockets. Just look at Australia or the UK.
Also no one is stupid enough to try a gun grab in the USA it would cause a civil war.

Quote from: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 07:14:14 PM

Quote

France has better crime rates than the US...

France is also far smaller. Its a clear correlation. Ban guns, crime skyrockets. Just look at Australia or the UK.
Also no one is stupid enough to try a gun grab in the USA it would cause a civil war.

Rates are per capita, so size doesn't help you.  You're the one that pointed them out as an example here.

Australia is a good place to look.  I suggest you fact check before using it as an example, since there's been false claims from both sides of the aisle that their gun program has widely flung crime one way or another when in actuality it's a mixed bag, and thus can be skewed.  A lot of the pro-gun articles post some frankly faulty info on that, FYI.  Gun related violence has been on a steady decline there, however.  I haven't ever looked into UK, so can't comment there. 

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 07:46:20 PM

Quote

http://www.theacru.org/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

Quote

The findings of two criminologists – Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser – in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland’s murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study’s authors write in the report:

If the mantra “more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death” were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)
Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct – that “gun don’t kill people, people do” – the study also shows that Russia’s murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.

You can see this in the USA. What do all high crime areas in the USA have in common? Strict gun control laws.
All gun control does is take away the ability for law abiding citizens to defend themselves from predators.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Unorthodox on December 10, 2015, 09:08:08 PM

If you really want me to, I can go quote conflicting studies, much newer than your 2007 one.   

But, to be clear, I'm not actually in favor of banning guns, just willing to play devil's advocate.

The problem with EVERY study into the field is that they fail to take other correlating factors into account.  Fact is, socioeconomic factors have a MUCH HIGHER CORRELATION in crime rates than do gun ownership.  Plain and simple.  The next study that takes those factors into account to be able to single out gun ownership as it's only variable will be the first. 

Yes, Australia crime peaked the year immediately following the ban, then dropped back to normal and while trending down since, is within normal deviation.    I'm sure a long study of the UK would show similar.  Both sides want to point to guns as the savior or villain, when in reality, they play practically no part, outside deaths caused by guns specifically. 

There, it's a very clear correlation that the more guns available, the more gun deaths.  That doesn't mean those deaths wouldn't have come via some other tool in the absence of guns. 

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Rusty Edge on December 10, 2015, 11:10:04 PM

I forgot to say something I said here before-
The media and the public should exercise some restraint with regard to mass murders, spree killers, etc. The FBI and Arizona State have identified the copycat effect.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/opinion/the-virginia-shooter-wanted-fame-lets-not-give-it-to-him.html?referrer&_r=1 (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/27/opinion/the-virginia-shooter-wanted-fame-lets-not-give-it-to-him.html?referrer&_r=1)

"It’s true that this material will live on in many places on the Internet, but having to seek it in a seedy corner is different from having it promoted by popular news sites.

Graphic footage may be appropriate at times to shock the conscience toward corrective action, for example with victims of war or state violence. But when a murder is carried out in a way that seems to be courting sensationalized coverage, not publicizing the killer’s name, face or screeds is the right response.

These killers seek our attention. It’s time we learned how to deny them."

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 11:59:24 PM

Quote

These killers seek our attention. It’s time we learned how to deny them."

Or you could simply shoot them.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Rusty Edge on December 11, 2015, 01:03:13 AM

Quote from: vonbach on December 10, 2015, 11:59:24 PM

Quote

These killers seek our attention. It’s time we learned how to deny them."

Or you could simply shoot them.

Often times they are shot by police or themselves before the media know their names. The point is to refuse to let it be a means to fame/notoriety, to refuse to demonstrate it as a viable means of getting revenge to the weak-minded and delusional, to refuse to quote their manifestos that wouldn't otherwise see the light of day, to refuse to give attention to the perceived grievances of the perpetrators.

I'm saying that gun violence can actually be reduced by not giving incidents of it so much publicity.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: vonbach on December 11, 2015, 02:29:44 AM

Quote

I'm saying that gun violence can actually be reduced by not giving incidents of it so much publicity.

The media already has a total news blackout on stories they don't like. All it does is make people distrust the media.
It certainly doesn't stop such incidents from happening. Thought control and narrative control like something out
of 1984 doesn't work.

Title: Re: How do we stop gun violence?
Post by: Rusty Edge on December 23, 2015, 07:19:21 PM

And another thing...

I watched the Democratic presidential debates. Obviously such things are designed to preach to the choir. They were pro gun control. No surprise.

If I were a moderator I would have asked them how their ban proposals were supposed to work without a wall on the Mexican border. We already have a drug ban, which makes the drugs more valuable, and provides an incentive to smugglers. The American track record on the Prohibition approach to things leads to wealthy criminals and street violence with innocent bystanders being killed. Isn't that the very thing they are trying to prevent?