Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: vonbach on October 25, 2015, 04:27:37 AM

Title: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on October 25, 2015, 04:27:37 AM

I want to try something different with my social engineering and I was looking for some feedback.

Police State: +2 POLICE +2 SUPPORT -2 GROWTH
Oligarchy: +2 ECON +2 PROBE -1 RESEARCH
Republic: +1 MORALE +2 GROWTH -2 PROBE

Free Market: +2 GROWTH +1 EFFIC -2 PLANET
Planned: +1 SUPPORT +1 INDUSTRY -1 GROWTH
Autarky: +2 GROWTH + 1 INDUSTRY  -1 ECONOMY

Power: +1 SUPPORT +1 MORALE +1 PROBE -1 ECONOMY
Progress: +1 RESEARCH +1 PLANET -2 PROBE
Wealth: +2 ECONOMY +1 INDUSTRY -3 POLICE

Cybernetic: +2 EFFIC +2 PLANET +RESEARCH -3 POLICE
Eudaimonic: +2 GROWTH +2 ECONOMY +2 TALENT -3 MORALE
Thought Control: +2 PROBE +2 INDUSTRY +2 SUPPORT +2POLICE -2 GROWTH (maybe -2 research)

This is what i was thinking of right now.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on October 27, 2015, 11:52:51 AM

Anyone have any thoughts as far as balance goes?

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: Nexii on October 28, 2015, 12:23:12 AM

Probably would end up in Oligarchy/X/Wealth most of the time.  +ECONOMY is very powerful, and not much downsides on each.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on October 28, 2015, 03:20:59 AM

Thanks for the feedback.
-1 research and -3 police isn't enough for oligarchy and wealth?
What changes would you make to the rest?
Possibly only +1 econ on both wealth and oligarchy?
I was also thinking possibly replacing the industry
with +2 green in autarky.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: Nexii on October 28, 2015, 04:20:06 AM

Yea bigger penalties or just +1 ECON

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on October 28, 2015, 05:10:18 PM

Not a bad Idea.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: Nevill on November 04, 2015, 08:16:29 AM

A good idea of how powerful/weak the given settings are is to run how many permutations of Politics/Economy/Values are viable with given changes.

Oligarchy is overpowered. -1 Research is not enough of a penalty for +2 ECON.


Republic seems a bit tame in comparison to P. State/Olygarchy, taken by itself.

Progress seems weak, compared to its neighbours.

Police State can't be run with Planned. -3 Growth would kill anyone, unless the plan is to build Children's Creches everywhere. Was the idea to make them a wartime setting for massive SUPPORT? That might be viable.

Republic + Freemarket/Autarky + Creches would make is very easy to popboom. Do you want to preserve this mechanics from the original. I myself prefer the one where one can only popboom through Golden Ages - it is one thing that discourages ICSing (bureaucracy drones make it impossible to have a GA).

Wealth is extremely powerful, with not only +2 ECON, but with a + INDUSTRY as well. Perhaps there can be an industry malus, as it would make the player spend at least some of their money on hurrying. I think though that the game needs a setting with +2 ECON as a way to immediately improve one's financial situation. It's just needs more fine-tuning.

FreeMarket and Autarky share the same ++GROWTH bonus. This makes them too similar. One thing the original did well was to make settings really different. There never were similar bonuses in a given row. Same goes for Autarky and Planned with +INDUSTRY.


For the moment I think making Wealth +1 ECON, changing Oligarchy penalty to -3 RESEARCH (or -2 INDUSTRY, orr something meaningful that can be felt), and changing Autarky Growth/Industry bonus to something else would make for good changes.

And then there is the question of faction bonuses. Those, too, might affect whether or not some settings are viable.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on November 04, 2015, 01:22:19 PM

I have been tweaking the social engineering a bit.
I'm always playing with it to be honest
Police is - 1 growth though honestly -2 growth is accurate. Police state is intended to a wartime state
or simply a state sacrificing growth for stability.
Oligrachy is +2 Probe +1 Economy -2 research or police
Republic is +2 growth +1 talent -2 probe might go back to +1 morale.
Republic is intended to by a growth/wartime hybrid hence the morale bonus earlier.
+1 Police might also work for it.

Free Market is the same i might go with +1 growth +2 effic
Planned is the same.
Autarky is the one I was putting the most thought into the idea is
a stable state economy at the cost of foreign trade. A closed system.
+2 growth and +1 industry or possibly +1 talent or + planet

Power same
Progress same might increase the planet bonus.
Wealth +1 economy +1 industry -3 morale
wealth has always been powerful to be blunt.
Thanks for the feedback.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on November 05, 2015, 10:03:18 PM

Here is what i am working on now.

Police State: +2 Police +2 Support -Growth
Oligarchy: +2 Economy +2Probe -4police
Republic: +2Growth +1 Police -2 Probe

Free Market: +2 Growth +2 Effic -3 Planet
Planned +1 Industry +1 Support -1 Growth
Autarky: +2 planet +1 Talent -1 Support

Power: +1 Morale +2 Support +1 Probe -1 Economy or -2 Planet
Progress: +1 research +1 Effic -2 Probe
Wealth: +1 Economy +Industry -3 Morale. Honestly I'm thinking of scrapping the concept of Wealth all together
and going with something different. Something that makes the population easier to manage at the cost of morale.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: Nexii on November 29, 2015, 02:56:43 AM

Wealth was always strange to me too.  Perhaps something like Enlightenment.  +2 EFFIC, +TALENT, -2 MORALE
Progress then might get +RESEARCH, +INDUSTRY, -2 PROBE

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: Mart on November 29, 2015, 12:28:13 PM

Quote from: vonbach on November 05, 2015, 10:03:18 PM

...Honestly I'm thinking of scrapping the concept of Wealth all together
and going with something different. Something that makes the population easier to manage at the cost of morale.

That sounds a bit like "mind control" which is in future society.
To achieve this, one could drug the society into it, hence lack of morale. Yet again, it sounds close to mind control.
this sounds like negative value overall, people with depression are easier to manage and they are low morale. This seems proper when one wants to destroy a society.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on November 29, 2015, 01:19:52 PM

Police State: +2 POLICE +2 SUPPORT +2 PROBE -3 RESEARCH
Oligarchy: +2 ECON +2 PROBE -1 RESEARCH
Republic: +1 MORALE +2 GROWTH -2 PROBE

Free Market: +2 GROWTH +2 EFFIC -3 PLANET
Planned: +1 SUPPORT +1 INDUSTRY -2 GROWTH
Autarky: +2 EFFIC + 1 TALENT  -1 SUPPORT

Power: +1 SUPPORT +1 MORALE +1 PROBE -1 ECONOMY
Green: +2 PLANET + 2 EFFIC -2 GROWTH
Wealth: +2 ECONOMY  -5 POLICE -3 Morale

Cybernetic: +2 EFFIC +2 PLANET +RESEARCH -3 POLICE
Eudaimonic: +2 GROWTH +2 ECONOMY +2 TALENT -3 MORALE
Thought Control: +2 PROBE +2 INDUSTRY +2 SUPPORT +2POLICE -2 GROWTH

This is what I'm working on now I moved Green to the values and it seems to fit there.
Borrowed some ideas from others here.

Quote

That sounds a bit like "mind control" which is in future society.
To achieve this, one could drug the society into it, hence lack of morale

Yes like a weaker version of the idea pre thought control. That was what I was thinking.
I was thinking of turning planned into something resembling that. Like switching the talent
from autarky to Planned and giving autarky something else.

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on December 20, 2015, 01:59:38 AM

Trying something a bit different. I've been borrowing from some of Mercantile Interests ideas and adapted it for my own.


Police State +2 Police +2Support +2 Probe -2 research
Republic +2 Efficiency +2 Morale -2 police (maybe -1 support)
Feudal +1 economy  +1 police -1 support (maybe -1 growth)

Free market +2 Growth =1 industry -3 planet
planned +1 support +1 talent -2 efficiency
Autarky +2 efficiency +2planet -1 growth (maybe -1 support)

Power +2 support +2 morale +1 probe -1 industry
Progress +2 research -1 growth
Wealth +2 economy -4 police -3 morale (maybe this is a bit harsh)

Cybernetic +2 efficiency +2 research +2 planet -3 police (now available with cyber ethics)
Thought Control +2police +2morale +2 support  +2 industry +2 probe -2 growth (now available with planetary economics)
Eudaemonic +2growth +2 economy +2 talent -3 morale (now available with environmental economics.)

What does everyone think as far as balance?

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: Nexii on December 21, 2015, 08:16:48 PM

Planned is a little weak...it needs something that is better past the very early game.  Rest seem fairly balanced. 

Title: Re: Social Engineering re-work.
Post by: vonbach on January 01, 2016, 01:59:01 AM

I gave planned an extra talent some time back. The whole thing seems to work fairly well.