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Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Rusty Edge on July 18, 2015, 06:25:50 AM

Title: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 18, 2015, 06:25:50 AM

IRAQ WAR III -That's what I'm worrying about these days.

Now that the Calaphate has been restored, I think another war is practically inevitable.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/)

In fact, ISIS wants to draw the American Crusaders into it. Of course, guys like GOP presidential hopefuls Rick Santorum and Scott Walker would have us fully participating already, if it were in their power.

I'd like to thank the NeoCons at the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, and their dumb buttocked belief in the domino theory, particularly that removing the Iraqi dictatorship and replacing it with a democracy would spread democracy across the Middle East, and that those democracies would be more friendly to Israel and the USA. We saw how well that worked in Egypt.  Without the Defense Policy Board the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) / restoration of The Caliphate would not have been possible.

ISIS is fundamentalist, medieval style Islam. Annual Jihad. Crucifixion, amputation, and slavery. Enslave the Christians and Jews, use their women as concubines of the holy warriors.  As for other Muslims, the ones who have shirked their scriptural duty to rally to the banner of the Caliph, the heretic Shiites, or any other group of Muslims who have liberalized and diluted the literal words of the Prophet, they are marked for death and executed when captured.

Obama is merely stirring the pot with his drones, emigration policies, and statement that ISIS is not true Islam. A believer thwarted from living in the Caliphate will likely retaliate against the country that stopped him.

From the article- "The humanitarian cost of the Islamic State’s existence is high. But its threat to the United States is smaller than its all too frequent conflation with al-Qaeda would suggest. Al-Qaeda’s core is rare among jihadist groups for its focus on the “far enemy” (the West); most jihadist groups’ main concerns lie closer to home. That’s especially true of the Islamic State, precisely because of its ideology. It sees enemies everywhere around it, and while its leadership wishes ill on the United States, the application of Sharia in the caliphate and the expansion to contiguous lands are paramount. Baghdadi has said as much directly: in November he told his Saudi agents to “deal with the rafida [Shia] first … then al-Sulul [Sunni supporters of the Saudi monarchy] … before the crusaders and their bases.”

So in other words, if the USA were to withdrawal from the region, ISIS would be in a death match with Iran. Countries like Saudi Arabia would be forced to decide if they would pledge loyalty to the Caliph and become a province, or fight against them.

Well, it is a religious quarrel, and I think we should let them sort things out without interference. USA presence can only unite and rally various factions against us. Al Queda was a response to sustained American presence in Arabia. Involvement is a no-win.

IRAQ WAR III - it's one we really need to sit out.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Geo on July 18, 2015, 09:31:06 AM

Domino effect works two ways. ISIS is fanatic and determined enough to topple existing countries which already are rife with internal strife. Iraq and Syria would likely topple quick enough. Jordany is pretty stable internally, but is unlikely to repel a fanatic assault launched across the desert, which brings the Battles of the Jordan quickly within view.
The existing semi-autonomous areas controlled by the Kurds would be unlikely to withstand. They're determined as well, but too lightly armed.
Letting Iran handle the IS likely means it will control at the very least the Tigris -and Euphrates rivers basin and the whole north shore of the Persian Gulf after the dust settles.
And all that means a couple dozen million people will for a time be at the mercy of those medieval butchers you described earlier, Rusty.

No, its better to try contain this while its still pretty isolated.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 18, 2015, 02:17:52 PM

The Islamic world is Chinatown.  They're still working out all the crap from colonialism and the aftermath of WWI.  It's an enormously complicated question with no easy answers.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Lorizael on July 18, 2015, 03:42:37 PM

I'm still not sure why the US has any right/responsibility to interfere with the Middle East. And aside from that, we seem to be spectacularly bad at doing so. Maybe we should focus on what we're good at, instead? (The other argument I make in these conversations is this one: the only way the US has ever made allies out of enemies is by more or less mercilessly crushing that enemy and then playing with nice whoever remains. See Germany, Japan. Also see the Pierson's Puppeteers plans for the Kzinti via humans in Known Space. This solution, while seemingly effective, also has the tendency to leave millions dead, which is why we haven't really tried it in the last 70 years.)

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on July 18, 2015, 07:59:07 PM

Quote from: Geo on July 18, 2015, 09:31:06 AM

Domino effect works two ways.

You may well be right about the rest of this, Geo,  time will tell.

That said, I don't believe in the domino theory. Eurasia did not become Communist. Not even SouthEast Asia. Neither did all of Africa. Or Central America.

The establishment of the state of Israel did not spread parliamentary government  across the region.








'

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 21, 2015, 02:45:49 AM

It's a tough moral dilemma, the middle east crap - on one hand, it's none of our business and we're not wanted, on the other, it's sorta wrong to do nothing while you hear the neighbors coming to blows.  And on the gripping hand, we broke Iraq...

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Geo on July 21, 2015, 07:36:36 AM

And a positive sounding 'Yes we can' politician didn't achieve the most powerful position in the world. Twice. ;)
It is more the driving force behind the 'domino' and the counterforce put in position against it.
Without NATO (admittedly, mostly US) backup, ISIS today would occupy quite a bit larger territory.
Think of the piracy situation along the Somali coast a couple years ago. Without naval patrols things would be way worse in the region by now, and not alone on the maritime level.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 05, 2015, 12:33:13 AM

It seems Barrack the Bomber has decided his death by drones policy doesn't pack enough punch.

The Turks have decided they stand against the Caliphate, rather than subordinate to it. So we're gearing up for USAF bombing from a Turkish base adjacent to Syria. The undeclared war against the Caliphate will begin in two or three weeks.

Terrorist counterstrikes in the USA to follow...

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Geo on August 05, 2015, 05:56:29 PM

Quote from: Rusty Edge on August 05, 2015, 12:33:13 AM

Terrorist counterstrikes in the USA to follow...

Those terrorists have announced terror strikes all over the world multiple times. Mosttimes, they don't succeed or even get things going.
What was the last one in the USA? Those brothers exploding a bomb at the finish line of a marathon on the East Coast?

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on August 05, 2015, 06:10:55 PM

Sadly, no.

July 16th, an Isis sympathizer sprayed a military recruiting office in a strip mall with bullets, killing or wounding everyone.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Geo on August 05, 2015, 06:24:36 PM

No stopping of the fanbois. :(

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 03, 2015, 05:32:39 AM

Quote from: Rusty Edge on August 05, 2015, 12:33:13 AM

It seems Barrack the Bomber has decided his death by drones policy doesn't pack enough punch.

The Turks have decided they stand against the Caliphate, rather than subordinate to it. So we're gearing up for USAF bombing from a Turkish base adjacent to Syria. The undeclared war against the Caliphate will begin in two or three weeks.

Terrorist counterstrikes in the USA to follow...

Well, I'm no longer concerned about the terrorist aspect as such.

My concern regards other mid-eastern nations facing the choice the Turks did-

Are you going to recognize the legitimacy of the caliphate, dissolve your government and be absorbed by it?

OR

Are you going to deny it's legitimacy, deny it funds,  deny it people, and oppose it?

My fear is that western intervention will allow many middle eastern governments to sit on the fence in safety, denounce the West, fund the fanatics instead of the refugees, allow jihadists to be recruited and trained within their borders, and allow this war to continue for a generation or more.

No more arms sales to Saudi Arabia or whoever until they take a stand, if I had my way.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 03, 2015, 06:46:19 AM

Or to put it another way...

When someone claims to be The Messiah, everybody within the faith has to make up their mind one way or the other and act accordingly.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on September 03, 2015, 12:13:01 PM

We had no enemies in the middle east at all until we backed Israel.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 03, 2015, 06:21:42 PM

Quote from: vonbach on September 03, 2015, 12:13:01 PM

We had no enemies in the middle east at all until we backed Israel.

That's a generalization, but not one I would argue against.

Here's an interesting exception- Iran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

We cleverly overthrew the popular socialist government. Pretty awesome at the time,
in the long run.....not so much.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2015, 06:24:04 PM

We've done that a lot in Central and South America - which hasn't bitten us on the butt, there, either. ;sarc

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on September 03, 2015, 11:58:53 PM

We also didn't plop a bunch of jews into some of the holiest land for three religions in South America either.
Or give them unlimited money and guns and carte blanche to slaughter them. Every single enemy we have in the
middle east we've made. Its lot like Israel has been good allies either. Just take a look at the USS Liberty incident.
Thats when the jews tried to sink a US ship and it was no accident either.

Quote

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/06/07/alan-hart-israels-attack-on-the-uss-liberty-the-full-story/

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on September 04, 2015, 12:02:20 AM

Quote from: vonbach on September 03, 2015, 11:58:53 PM

We also didn't plop a bunch of jews into some of the holiest land for three religions in South America either.
Or give them unlimited money and guns and carte blanche to slaughter them. Every single enemy we have in the
middle east we've made. Its lot like Israel has been good allies either. Just take a look at the USS Liberty incident.
Thats when the jews tried to sink a US ship and it was no accident either.

Quote

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2012/06/07/alan-hart-israels-attack-on-the-uss-liberty-the-full-story/

Quote

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/us_ints/ussliberty.html

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 04, 2015, 12:18:57 AM

Uh, von - this latest tear you're on, this time about Jews, is tough to tell from actual anti-Semitism.

What have I told you repeatedly about racial talk?  I don't want you to defend why you talk that rude way on any given racial issue; I want you to get your head straight, smarten up your way of putting it -if you're not an actual racist- and stop making this whole room uncomfortable.

Protip: blaming it on liberals on political correctness, blaming them for ANYthing , is the SECOND-fastest way to lose points here.  The first is crude racial talk, which you've been dancing up way too close to repeatedly.  I happen to more or less agree with what you're saying about Israel being a lightning rod for trouble in the Middle East, but I find your way of putting it unconscionably rude.  -Also, stating obvious truths while leaving out other obvious truths that bring honest nuance to the picture.  You want the truth?  Then stop cherry-picking truths and leaving out ones that hurt your simplistic case.

To underline:  It's rude.  We have a style and an atmosphere here, and I need you to check your manners and stop making the rest of us uncomfortable with blunt crudity.  Please.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on September 04, 2015, 12:27:39 AM

Sigh. Its the truth.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 04, 2015, 12:41:47 AM

Siigh.

We can never live in a world where Israel was not attacked hard and repeatedly as soon as it was a thing, and thus, can never know what sort of neighbors the Israelis would have been otherwise.

THAT is also true.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on September 04, 2015, 12:48:00 AM

Quote

Siigh.

We can never live in a world where Israel was not attacked hard and repeatedly as soon as it was a thing, and thus, can never know what sort of neighbors the Israelis would have been otherwise.

THAT is also true.

The problem is its not. The Israelis aren't the victims they're the aggressors. The way they treat the Palestinians is abhorrent. They are also doing this with our money and guns and this doesn't exactly make us popular.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 04, 2015, 12:53:05 AM

I'll buy half that - and find the rest naïve and turns-out-not-to-be-the-case.

It IS true.  You bluntly contradict me -RUDE- without pointing out any flaws in my logic or facts.  Time to step up your game, son; this is not only no-class, it's boring.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on September 04, 2015, 01:03:53 AM

Quote

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

Quote

http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.crimes.html

Quote

http://www.mintpressnews.com/israel-threatens-intl-criminal-court-with-retribution-if-war-crime-investigations-continue/201967/

Quote

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/palestinians-another-resolution

Quote

https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/israel/palestine

Here. Have a list of Israeli war crimes.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 04, 2015, 01:11:58 AM

I'm very bored that you know how to find websites and paste a link.  Show me some evidence that you've read and considered all sides and thought for yourself.

-And tell me about your comic-book universe where Israel wasn't attacked every few years for over a decade, starting the day it officially became a nation.  You still haven't defended your contradiction of my observation about alternate history.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on September 04, 2015, 02:20:35 AM

I rarely curse. There was that time a couple of years ago when I was re-baiting somebody's hook after removing a fish, and they managed to jerk on the line and set the hook in my hand.

I know about the USS Liberty. The incident and the aftermath.  From books and internet. The BBC did a show on it, too.

It's the one topic I can't discuss without cursing. That's why I haven't mentioned it here before.



That's why I won't get into it now.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on November 26, 2015, 06:45:28 PM

It seems as if things have developed while I was away. Let me get this straight...

Paris was attacked by Belgians motivated by The Caliphate.
The French retaliated against The Caliphate with air strikes.

The Russians are supporting Assad by bombing the U.S. backed Kurdish insurgents, while claiming to be striking at The Caliphate. 

The US is escalating against The Caliphate.

A Russian fighter/bomber was shot down for violating Turkish air space. A French envoy is trying to smooth things over between them.



I have yet to see the NeoCon vision of democracy spreading across the Middle East, domino style.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Yitzi on November 27, 2015, 05:00:54 PM

Quote from: vonbach on September 03, 2015, 12:13:01 PM

We had no enemies in the middle east at all until we backed Israel.

We also had no enemies in Europe during WWII until we joined the allies.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on November 28, 2015, 03:43:41 AM

Quote

We also had no enemies in Europe during WWII until we joined the allies.

If you want to get into WW2 history fine. FDR did everything he could to help start WW2.
We were an enemy of Germany long before WW2 and we never acted neutral.
Just on another note we were allied with the Russians in WW2. That ended when our
troops actually met Russians. The GI's took one look at the Russians and one look at the Germans
and said "we fought for the wrong side." So the alliance fell apart and the cold war was born.
But its off topic and I'm not in the mood to argue about WW2.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Yitzi on November 29, 2015, 11:57:37 AM

Quote from: BUncle on September 04, 2015, 12:41:47 AM

Siigh.

We can never live in a world where Israel was not attacked hard and repeatedly as soon as it was a thing, and thus, can never know what sort of neighbors the Israelis would have been otherwise.

Actually, it was attacked hard and repeatedly even before it was a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

Quote from: vonbach on November 28, 2015, 03:43:41 AM

Quote

We also had no enemies in Europe during WWII until we joined the allies.

If you want to get into WW2 history fine. FDR did everything he could to help start WW2.
We were an enemy of Germany long before WW2 and we never acted neutral.
Just on another note we were allied with the Russians in WW2. That ended when our
troops actually met Russians. The GI's took one look at the Russians and one look at the Germans
and said "we fought for the wrong side." So the alliance fell apart and the cold war was born.
But its off topic and I'm not in the mood to argue about WW2.

You have a reliable source for any of this?

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on November 29, 2015, 01:08:39 PM

Quote

You have a reliable source for any of this?

Heh. I know people that could literally teach on the subject of WW2. I also know people that
have spoken to GI's that were there.
Yes I have sources. Just read gruesome harvest or a terrible revenge or a woman in Berlin.
Or for that matter you could read Icebreaker the book from a Russian
general that proves the Germans beat the Soviet invasion by two weeks.
Then theres this little gem from Ilya Grigoryevich Ehrenburg.

Quote

"Kill! Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm onward, kill, you gallant soldiers of the Red Army."

Every single German woman had the exact same stories to tell about the Russians behavior.
For that matter there are pictures taken in broad daylight. Patton was seriously considering invading
the USSR and he would have succeeded.
But honestly I really don't feel like getting into this.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Yitzi on November 29, 2015, 02:53:24 PM

Quote from: vonbach on November 29, 2015, 01:08:39 PM

Quote

You have a reliable source for any of this?

Heh. I know people that could literally teach on the subject of WW2. I also know people that
have spoken to GI's that were there.

And what, exactly, did they say.

Quote

Yes I have sources. Just read gruesome harvest or a terrible revenge or a woman in Berlin.

Those all sound like they're talking about how horrible the Soviets were, which I don't deny.  But even if they were among the worst people ever to live...the Nazis were even worse than that.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: vonbach on November 29, 2015, 03:06:48 PM

Quote

Those all sound like they're talking about how horrible the Soviets were, which I don't deny.  But even if they were among the worst people ever to live...the Nazis were even worse than that.

Except for the 66 million people the Soviets killed and the 2.5 million German women they raped.
Theres no comparing the two its just silly.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Yitzi on November 29, 2015, 03:34:48 PM

Quote from: vonbach on November 29, 2015, 03:06:48 PM

Quote

Those all sound like they're talking about how horrible the Soviets were, which I don't deny.  But even if they were among the worst people ever to live...the Nazis were even worse than that.

Except for the 66 million people the Soviets killed and the 2.5 million German women they raped.

But at least their reasons for killing people weren't quite as evil as the racism and post-moralism of the Nazis.

In any case, my main point is that, even though we could have stayed out of WWII, it was still the right move to get involved and fight evil.  If you'd rather make that point about getting involved in the cold war instead, we can do that instead.

Title: Re: IRAQ WAR III
Post by: Rusty Edge on December 07, 2015, 05:51:38 AM

Tonight the President addressed us from the Oval Office.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/06/politics/transcript-obama-san-bernardino-isis-address/ (http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/06/politics/transcript-obama-san-bernardino-isis-address/)
As per usual- nice speech.

It almost sounded like he was asking Congress to declare war.

"Finally, if Congress believes, as I do, that we are at war with ISIL, it should go ahead and vote to authorize the continued use of military force against these terrorists. For over a year, I have ordered our military to take thousands of airstrikes against ISIL targets. I think it's time for Congress to vote to demonstrate that the American people are united, and committed, to this fight."

He also said-

"Our success won't depend on tough talk, or abandoning our values, or giving into fear. That's what groups like ISIL are hoping for. Instead, we will prevail by being strong and smart, resilient and relentless, and by drawing upon every aspect of American power. "

Fine words. Really fine words. But values are some of the first casualties of war. It sounds like he's calling for infringements of the 2nd Amendment at the same time as he's calling for protecting religious freedom and immigration. That's something that's likely to divide us, rather than unite us.