Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => Modding => Topic started by: ete on November 23, 2014, 10:13:51 PM

Title: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 23, 2014, 10:13:51 PM
I kinda tried to do this before (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4460.45), but the thread kinda got side tracked into other people's factions and sorting out old network node graphics, which while good things don't do the main thing I was aiming for: Making a set of balanced, competitive, and interesting aquatic factions to add to the pool.

This time I'll be a little more focused.

There are plenty of graphics resources from here (http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/Custom%20Factions3.html) which will provide the bulk of art, but if other artists want to join in and make custom things that would be very welcome.

Let's make seven factions. All fairly balanced against each other, and at a reasonable level with the official factions. I think there's a good chance an environment with multiple sea factions in it likely massively shrinks the Pirates main benefit (starts in a place he can be sure of not having early competition), so the Pirates should be not treated as a perfect example of aquatic balance. Nor should aquatisized official factions be considered balanced by default. Each bonus and penalty matters a different amount at sea from the amount it matters on land, so some official factions with just start at sea added may be overpowered, and others may be underpowered. Playing a few games with the current 18 aquatic factions (pirates+13 aquatisized official factions+the four other here (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Aquatic_factions)) is a fun experience which will help inform your balance suggestions.

I'm looking for ideas, feedback and assistance (esp. art) at all stages. I'll be organizing this and overviewing balance, but I hope this will be a community project with people adopting and testing factions.

If we end up with >7 factions I'll narrow it down to an official seven in the ocean pack then make an extended edition which includes all known finished and functional aquatic factions, including those that don't make the 7 cuttoff.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 23, 2014, 10:13:56 PM
Current factions:

Ideas:
- Native faction
- Economy focus

- A faction with free Repair Bay and Carrier Deck
- A faction with free AA (stops humans running over AI so easily once you get air)
- Some factions with free Deep Radar (it's free anyway at sea, but they don't clog up their ability slots if it's from faction power)
- Faction with Slow Unit imposed on all units as a penalty (on land would make someone just never use rovers, at sea it's different). Likely combined with significant combat bonus, like Morale or Offense.

unlikely ideas
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used ideas
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Concepts in discussion



Factions in testing

Centauri Armada / Centaury Flotilla - Military Terraformer
(click to show/hide)

The Praxis Harvesters - Native industrialists
(click to show/hide)

The Seastead Accord - The Seasteaders
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The Triton Monarchy - The Neoreactionary
(click to show/hide)

Covenant of the Deep
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Ready for use:
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 23, 2014, 10:14:43 PM
(this is absolutely not a hint about my plans for group AAR #3. shhhh.....)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Dio on November 23, 2014, 10:23:35 PM
What about a faction that lives primarily on organic living bases and does extensive biological engineering of both earth and native plants to meet their tool and construction needs? Perhaps this faction would be the one to get the slow penalty since most of their vehicles would be organic in nature?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 23, 2014, 10:30:25 PM
hmm.. that has potential. Perhaps free Aquafarms? How would the bio-vehicles advantages be represented though? Maybe some ability, like Clean Reactors?

And what do they have as a philosophy driving them? Could be.. a drive for efficiency, but not out of "let's be nice to Planet" morals, but simple optimization and preference for not screwing up the place their civilization has to live on forever?

Also, since the biotech to do that is unlikely to be available right off the bat, perhaps have that coming in later and starting instead with a philosophy that leads to that kind of development?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 01:21:54 AM
How does the cost of Foils compare with the cost of Rovers? Would it be a good idea to include with this an alphax that adjusts the costs of sea units to make them more affordable?

As for factions, I can definitely pitch in for this. Let me give it some thought and I should be able to have something compelling tomorrow.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 01:43:24 AM
hm.. I think we should balance them with respect to default alphax settings. Maybe an alternate alphax could be included, but it would be a secondary thing as far as I'm concerned. And cool, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 01:58:59 AM
I don't think art will be a problem...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 03:31:55 AM
...I'd just point out that Maniac, not an artist, used to make up his own faction graphics via cut-and-paste from old Network Node factions, and Darsnan designed the Harmonists, a splinter Gaian faction, sorta the same way, sending me a picture to turn leaderhead, and telling me what NN factions to take what element from.

I believe GeoModder made a few in the old days that way, too.

We can toss off a lot of reasonably decent graphics in a hurry the same way, using my goodie files.  Tell me what you want, and I'll see what I can do.  We'll probably need to make up a lot of logos, but no sweat there.

I'm not likely to take a lot of initiative, mind, but will take requests...  It'll happen more promptly the more preferences I have to work with - I can do a straight copy/paste job in minutes if I don't have to look around...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 03:41:35 AM
Okay, noted. When we've got some ideas of what the factions are going to be like, we'll call you with a set of things to include/ideas for what things should look like.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 03:43:49 AM
;nod
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 03:36:13 PM
Okay, let's sketch some out.

The Seasteaders

Based off the current seasteaders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading) http://www.seasteading.org/?intro=close (http://www.seasteading.org/?intro=close)

Heavy libertarian influence, focus on new and diverse forms of government. Quite decentralized, with ideas about self-sufficiency.

I'm thinking options for the main bonus could be Clean Reactors, free HQ, or perhaps too optimistically, Paradise Gardens. I'd also consider high efficiency.

Minor bonuses include small research bonuses (not necessarily +RESEARCH)

Possible penalties include.. -POPULATION (citizens leave crowded settlements). Simple economics, if that works correctly (may need to give them a tech for a different one, which is badish at the start, like FM or Green?). Not sure what else right now, ideas welcome.


The New Monarchy

A neo-reactionary faction with the idea that returning to extremely centralized royal power is the best for the people. Leader would be King <something> I.

Major bonus ideas: Impunity, Power, free Perimeter Defenses, +2 Police, IMMUNITY/ROBUST, Morale.

Minor bonuses: Deep Radar, Unity Gunship

Penalties: -Research, or larger TECHCOST. Aversion Democratic. Maybe -1 effic. Maybe an economic penalty, like negative energy interest (a portion of wealth squandered by rulers), though it does not affect humans that much.

They'd have no good political choices, but two amazing values choices.


Name Undecided

An industrial native faction. Not caring for the environment because of fluffy ideals, but because it's the most effective way to live in the ocean.

Major bonus ideas: +2/+3 Fung Min, Free Bio Labs and/or Brood Pits, +1 Industry.

Minor bonuses: small Psi bonus (+10%?), robust planet

Penalties: Significant conventional combat bonuses (-30-40%?), possibly the Slow Unit thing if not used elsewhere, Hurry penalty, aversion FM. No +Planet, they have to run green to capture.


All are only rough sketches, not all ideas will be included. Feel free to make suggestions, I'll incorporate some as I refine them.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 04:25:53 PM
Okay, let's sketch some out.

The Seasteaders
Seasteaders are a pretty obvious route to go. They're basically Libertarians: I'm on a Boat, so there's a lot of easy baggage that comes with it. How about instead CR, HQs or Gardens they get the Perimeter Defense. The natural argument here is that, as they are intensely protective of their floating city states, they naturally lean towards turning them into floating fortresses.

I agree with giving them a RESEARCH bonus, maybe RESEARCH, 2, which did a pretty good job at buffing my Apollo Industries faction without tipping them over completely. The argument here being that they don't necessarily have the best scientific minds, but they do have the least regulated scientific minds so they're able to keep up.

-Growth is also the obvious way to go, but maybe offset it with a -2 Pop bonus, meaning that they are slow to grow but are arguably the best at constructing aquatic habitats. So while it will take them longer they have a higher ceiling.

I find that +Drone penalties are a natural fit to Libertarian ideologies.

For other bonuses, +Industry could work (Libertarianism and "Captain of Industry" mentality go hand in hand together), but as someone who used to live in New Hampshire, the Tax Evader State, I'm thinking something a little more militant might be in order, maybe +Support.

So how about:

The Seastead Federation
+Industry/+Support
-Growth
Research 2 (+Labs per base)
Free Perimeter Defense
Bases can reach size 9 without needing a Hab Complex
Extra Drone per/4 citizens

Ideas for Leader Title: Freeman

Quote
The New Monarchy
An excellent counterpoint to the Seasteaders. How about instead of New Monarchy we go with "Triton" or "Neptune Monarchy" as it has a more evocative, nautical feel to it. I feel like all the factions we create for this set should evoke the sea in every aspect of their character.

Agree with +Police, Impunity Power, Robust Morale (Monarchies would want Wealth as much as Power).

Also agree with -Efficiency for a strongly centralized Monarchy being a bit of a cludgy fit for an oceanic empire.

If we move the Perimeter Defense to the Seasteaders, I think we can leave the rest as is.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 04:48:24 PM
hmm.. I see the Seasteaders quite differently, I think. Partly to intentionally differentiate them from your libertarian faction. I imagine them very much about experimentation and exit rights, which is definitely libertarian, but slightly different from the classic of just reducing/removing government oversight, since some colonies may in fact be socialist or even communist, it's just about letting people pick what they want and frictionlessly move. If anything I'd imagine them to have fewer drones via NODRONE, due to the whole "if you don't like it, you leave"/"vote with your boat" thing meaning that rather than dissatisfied citizens causing disorder, they just move to a different colony which suits them better. Each colony would have almost totally independant government and they's only act as a faction due to a strong mutual defense treaty.

I'd also imagine they grow.. maybe not faster than usual, but not slower than other oceangoing factions. Trying lots of things quickly lets you settle on what works to raise populations, and the idea of colonies splintering after a certain size based on different ideologies points more towards lower not higher pop limits. Similarly splintered and diverse small colonies don't seem like great +Indust. +Support is plausible though, as is Research. I'm struggling a bit to come up with good ideas for penalties which fit with my idea of the faction.

I like the title Freeman though.


The Triton Monarchy sounds much better. Let's go with that.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 05:03:18 PM
hmm.. I see the Seasteaders quite differently, I think. Partly to intentionally differentiate them from your libertarian faction. I imagine them very much about experimentation and exit rights, which is definitely libertarian, but slightly different from the classic of just reducing/removing government oversight, since some colonies may in fact be socialist or even communist, it's just about letting people pick what they want and frictionlessly move. If anything I'd imagine them to have fewer drones via NODRONE, due to the whole "if you don't like it, you leave"/"vote with your boat" thing meaning that rather than dissatisfied citizens causing disorder, they just move to a different colony which suits them better. Each colony would have almost totally independant government and they's only act as a faction due to a strong mutual defense treaty.

I'd also imagine they grow.. maybe not faster than usual, but not slower than other oceangoing factions. Trying lots of things quickly lets you settle on what works to raise populations, and the idea of colonies splintering after a certain size based on different ideologies points more towards lower not higher pop limits. Similarly splintered and diverse small colonies don't seem like great +Indust. +Support is plausible though, as is Research. I'm struggling a bit to come up with good ideas for penalties which fit with my idea of the faction.

I like the title Freeman though.
I see where you're coming from and I agree with it. I was reading them more as Rapture, when what you're proposing is more of a loose Confederacy of individuals who share an overarching desire for freedom and independence but not specific ideologies.

With that in mind, a novel approach might actually be +Growth but -Population. They are quick to grow with the influx of individuals who chafe under the "oppression" of other factions, but the logistic limitations of a Seastead coupled with ideological inflighting would mean that while they grow rapidly they rapidly reach a point where competition for limited resources makes further growth unfeasible, thus encouraging expansion. I'd argue that even a penalty as severe as Pop, 3 would work to that end.

Coupled with P.Defense, you get a very scattered faction of small but well defended, independent settlements. I like it.

Other names: Seastead Confederacy, Seastates
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 05:24:00 PM
I see where you're coming from and I agree with it. I was reading them more as Rapture, when what you're proposing is more of a loose Confederacy of individuals who share an overarching desire for freedom and independence but not specific ideologies.

Exactly. The first post was not very clear about the philosophy, but that's what I'm going for here.

With that in mind, a novel approach might actually be +Growth but -Population. They are quick to grow with the influx of individuals who chafe under the "oppression" of other factions, but the logistic limitations of a Seastead coupled with ideological inflighting would mean that while they grow rapidly they rapidly reach a point where competition for limited resources makes further growth unfeasible, thus encouraging expansion. I'd argue that even a penalty as severe as Pop, 3 would work to that end.

Coupled with P.Defense, you get a very scattered faction of small but well defended, independent settlements. I like it.

+Growth would be interesting. And yea, a quite harsh pop penalty would probably be best. Maybe even 4, taking default max base size to 3. One thing I'm finding awkward about how they'd play is that while they'd grow fast initially they'd have horrible inefficiency problems after not very long, or be able to support a far smaller total population than other factions, which.. does not fit that well. I think either we'd need to give a very significant +effic or go with the free HQ at every base thing to counteract this. Or I guess with small bases Paradise Gardens would maybe work, and make them less amazing when Hab Complexes come along.

Other names: Seastead Confederacy, Seastates

The Seastead Confederacy has potential, but perhaps covenant or accord would be more fitting? Making direct reference to the agreement between member states? Or another from http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/alliance (http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/alliance)

The Seastead Accord

The Seastead Covenant


I've edited the second post to include updated sketches of the two factions we've talked about.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 06:06:36 PM
Definitely Seastead Accord.

I don't think that an Efficiency bonus necessary fits the faction's ideology, since Efficiency to me involves the ability of a faction to allocate resources, primarily Energy, in an efficient manner throughout their territory, and a decentralized faction made up of independent city states with their own ideologies is not, to me, a paragon of efficiency. Being able to manage that inefficiency would be a challenge for the player to resolve, similar to a Leviathan player needing to reconcile their Drone/Police problems with their Offensive operations.

Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.

-Merchants. Easy theme, easy to build. Personally I'm not all that interested in them.

-If we identify the Seasteaders as either Techers or Builders, we need to figure out a faction to fill in the other role.

-I find that Faction sets benefit from a Peacekeeper analog, i.e. "Guys lets stick to the mission." How about a militarized faction with an emphasis on terraforming? They start with Centauri Ecology, get +Support as a Bonus and -Planet as a penalty because their focus is on transforming the native ecosystem rather than preserving it (i.e. Purity instead of Harmony), and Naval Yards as a free facility. We could call them the Centauri Armada or something along those lines. It would be an interesting combination.

Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Geo on November 24, 2014, 06:22:37 PM
I believe GeoModder made a few in the old days that way, too.

That I did. ;nod

I'm still pretty fond of my Royal Atlanteans with their hidden ships. :D
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 06:24:54 PM
Definitely Seastead Accord.
Done.

I don't think that an Efficiency bonus necessary fits the faction's ideology, since Efficiency to me involves the ability of a faction to allocate resources, primarily Energy, in an efficient manner throughout their territory, and a decentralized faction made up of independent city states with their own ideologies is not, to me, a paragon of efficiency. Being able to manage that inefficiency would be a challenge for the player to resolve, similar to a Leviathan player needing to reconcile their Drone/Police problems with their Offensive operations.
hmm, okay, I see where you're coming from there. I do think that free HQs fits pretty excellently though, since in a literal sense each faction is running it's own business. And.. without some way to have plenty bases, I could see them just being extremely frustrating to play. If not, they need some other major hook to draw people in and make them seem like a worthwhile faction. Free HQs are kind of a huge distortion of normal gameplay though. I'm not sure if they'd go PS/Power due to tiny bases and lack of need for police, but virtually free planned is awkward.

Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.
hmm.. yea, that could work. I'm slightly struggling to imagine many people signing up for a Cthulhu faction, but I guess the right Psi interaction and it'd fit.

-Merchants. Easy theme, easy to build. Personally I'm not all that interested in them.
Yea, probably worth having one of, but not all that interesting.

-If we identify the Seasteaders as either Techers or Builders, we need to figure out a faction to fill in the other role.
Do we need to identify the Seasteaders as either? I kinda like the idea of exploring as many new niches as possible, which may mean we have room for our own take on both a techer and builder.

-I find that Faction sets benefit from a Peacekeeper analog, i.e. "Guys lets stick to the mission." How about a militarized faction with an emphasis on terraforming? They start with Centauri Ecology, get +Support as a Bonus and -Planet as a penalty because their focus is on transforming the native ecosystem rather than preserving it (i.e. Purity instead of Harmony), and Naval Yards as a free facility. We could call them the Centauri Armada or something along those lines. It would be an interesting combination.
I like this, though it needs a bit more refinement. Exactly what are they going for/what's their approach to getting it? Possibly free Fungicide Tanks, if that gets applied correctly to just formers. And worth considering Aquafarm instead of Naval Yards, if we go more terraforming than military?

I believe GeoModder made a few in the old days that way, too.

That I did. ;nod

I'm still pretty fond of my Royal Atlanteans with their hidden ships. :D
I've played a few aquatic games against them, and one as them.

@Sigma: What do you think of the industrial green faction I outlined on page 1?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 06:47:33 PM
Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.
hmm.. yea, that could work. I'm slightly struggling to imagine many people signing up for a Cthulhu faction, but I guess the right Psi interaction and it'd fit.
Let's look at it this way:

You've arrived on a new planet to escape your dying world. It is mostly comprised of endless, unknown alien ocean. The water is bogged down by dense fungal growths the size of entire islands. Wriggling masses of worms erupt from the depths and drag men into raving psychotic episodes while they devour their ships whole. The fungus speaks to you in your dreams, beckoning you to venture deeper into it. What little land there is is marked by the monolithic remains of a fallen alien civilization.

It doesn't seem odd to me that some people would find the draw of a such belief irresistible.

Change the name to Convenant of the Deep. Much better.

-I find that Faction sets benefit from a Peacekeeper analog, i.e. "Guys lets stick to the mission." How about a militarized faction with an emphasis on terraforming? They start with Centauri Ecology, get +Support as a Bonus and -Planet as a penalty because their focus is on transforming the native ecosystem rather than preserving it (i.e. Purity instead of Harmony), and Naval Yards as a free facility. We could call them the Centauri Armada or something along those lines. It would be an interesting combination.
I like this, though it needs a bit more refinement. Exactly what are they going for/what's their approach to getting it? Possibly free Fungicide Tanks, if that gets applied correctly to just formers. And worth considering Aquafarm instead of Naval Yards, if we go more terraforming than military?
I like the dichotemy of militarized terraformers, especially considering that the planet is a semi-sentient organism capable of fighting back. One would think that to successfully turn a hostile world into a comfortable one you'd need to wage a war against the ecosystem itself. If we're looking for new niches to fill, this could be a very fun one to play as and against (though the focus on Terraforming would screw up most unpatched SMAC AIs and basically all SMACX AIs)

@Sigma: What do you think of the industrial green faction I outlined on page 1?
You mean the FungMinerals faction? They'd be extremely scary in an aquatic map where Minerals are hard to come by. Not sure about the characterization. They're industrialists who discovered a way to extract an incredible resource from the native life on the planet, and transform it into productive goods. Maybe that's where Andrew Ryan comes in? I like the idea though.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 07:12:58 PM
Other factions ideas:

-Cthulhu themed religious faction is definitely one that should work. Call them the Church of the Deep. They revere Planet's fungus mind as a source of terrible power, in contrast with the Gaian's reverence for it as a benevolent force. They also wish to achieve oneness (Transcendence) but in a much more aggressive fashion. Maaaybe Deep Pressure Hull but that's honestly not that useful of an Ability, as cool as it is.
hmm.. yea, that could work. I'm slightly struggling to imagine many people signing up for a Cthulhu faction, but I guess the right Psi interaction and it'd fit.
Let's look at it this way:

You've arrived on a new planet to escape your dying world. It is mostly comprised of endless, unknown alien ocean. The water is bogged down by dense fungal growths the size of entire islands. Wriggling masses of worms erupt from the depths and drag men into raving psychotic episodes while they devour their ships whole. The fungus speaks to you in your dreams, beckoning you to venture deeper into it. What little land there is is marked by the monolithic remains of a fallen alien civilization.

It doesn't seem odd to me that some people would find the draw of a such belief irresistible.

Change the name to Convenant of the Deep. Much better.
You make a convincing argument. Damn, Planet is scary when you think about it like that. Okay, let's include it.

Leader: ???
Ideology: Fundamentalist / Green (?)
Anti-Ideology: ???

+1 Planet
????

I like this, though it needs a bit more refinement. Exactly what are they going for/what's their approach to getting it? Possibly free Fungicide Tanks, if that gets applied correctly to just formers. And worth considering Aquafarm instead of Naval Yards, if we go more terraforming than military?
I like the dichotemy of militarized terraformers, especially considering that the planet is a semi-sentient organism capable of fighting back. One would think that to successfully turn a hostile world into a comfortable one you'd need to wage a war against the ecosystem itself. If we're looking for new niches to fill, this could be a very fun one to play as and against (though the focus on Terraforming would screw up most unpatched SMAC AIs and basically all SMACX AIs)
hm, yea, there's something good there. Unite humanity against Planet to transform it into new Earth and survive as a species. They've even got a natural foe in the Covenant of the Deep, which is always nice.

Centauri Armada (?)

Leader: Admiral <something>
Anti-ideology: Green
Ideology: Power?

Cent Eco
+1 Support
Naval Yards
Sea former at start
Fungicide Tanks (?)

Penalties:
-1 Planet
more?

@Sigma: What do you think of the industrial green faction I outlined on page 1?
You mean the FungMinerals faction? They'd be extremely scary in an aquatic map where Minerals are hard to come by. Not sure about the characterization. They're industrialists who discovered a way to extract an incredible resource from the native life on the planet, and transform it into productive goods. Maybe that's where Andrew Ryan comes in? I like the idea though.
hm, you're right, it could do with some more politics. I'll think about it more.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 07:20:57 PM
I recall reading in an old thread about a terraformer faction -it was a really popular custom faction theme 10-15 years ago, though I never heard of a good one getting finished satisfactorily- where someone suggested a "kill Planet" victory; win when all fungus on the map is removed.  I wonder if that's doable for Yitzi now?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Flux on November 24, 2014, 07:34:33 PM
...I'd just point out that Maniac, not an artist, used to make up his own faction graphics via cut-and-paste from old Network Node factions
I have to ask, what is a Network Node faction? Was that an old AC forum or something?

EDIT: Answered my own question. Found a file with every faction from there.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 07:36:49 PM
There are several terraformer factions in the archive http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions_with_free_Formers (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions_with_free_Formers) and http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions_with_terraform_bonus (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Category:Factions_with_terraform_bonus) have a bunch each, but none are aquatic.

...I'd just point out that Maniac, not an artist, used to make up his own faction graphics via cut-and-paste from old Network Node factions

I have to ask, what is a Network Node faction? Was that an old AC forum or something?

It was a place that collected, created, and hosted factions a long time ago. They were mostly recovered, and formed the bulk of my ultimate faction pack which contains 160+ new factions.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 07:37:20 PM
Suggestions:

Covenant of the Deep

Leader: Deacon
Ideology: Fundamentalist
Anti-Ideology: Free Market OR Wealth
Aggressive
Tech: Social Psyche? Or Planetary Networks for Spies

+Planet (Nature lovers)
+Probe (Secretive!)
-Economy (Nobody wants to trade with them) OR -Growth (Creepy faction has limited following)
Free Brood Pit
+Psi Combat
-Probe Cost
-Conventional Combat
Ability: Deep Radar


Centauri Armada or Centaury Flotilla

Leader: Admiral
Ideology: Power
Anti-Ideology: Green
Erratic
Tech: CentEco

+Support
-Planet
Naval Yards
Fungicide Tanks
Sea Former

This seems reasonable to me. They lack a clear combat ability like most other factions do, but they also lack clear weaknesses except their inability to deal with the planet's ecosystem in a non-aggressive manner. The Free Naval Yards give them a Morale advantage to compete with the Triton Monarchy, though if the TM can nab the Maritime Control Center they they will surge ahead.

I think we're onto something here.

Green Builders (Tentative)

For the Green Builders, I think we need to work with the idea that by using the Fungus for minerals they are literally incorporating the planet's bio-ecology into their infrastructure. What kind of society would that create? Do they have a scientific perspective on Planet, like Deidre, or a reverential view like Cha Dawn?


Tech: Industrial Base OR Biogenetics

+Industry
FungMinerals
-Morale (not a serious military force) OR -Support
Ability: Hyponotic Trance (Fungal construction makes them resistant to native attacks)
Free Fac: Recycling Tanks
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 08:00:43 PM
Suggestions:

Covenant of the Deep

Leader: Deacon
Ideology: Fundamentalist
Anti-Ideology: Free Market OR Wealth
Aggressive
Tech: Social Psyche? Or Planetary Networks for Spies

+Planet (Nature lovers)
+Probe (Secretive!)
-Economy (Nobody wants to trade with them) OR -Growth (Creepy faction has limited following)
Free Brood Pit
+Psi Combat
-Probe Cost
-Conventional Combat
Ability: Deep Radar
hmm.. I mostly like it, but think maybe we need different/more penalties. Especially if the green builders have a conventional combat penalty. I'd maybe prefer to go with just pure +Planet? Still included in second post as a sketch.

Centauri Armada or Centaury Flotilla

Leader: Admiral
Ideology: Power
Anti-Ideology: Green
Erratic
Tech: CentEco

+Support
-Planet
Naval Yards
Fungicide Tanks
Sea Former

This seems reasonable to me. They lack a clear combat ability like most other factions do, but they also lack clear weaknesses except their inability to deal with the planet's ecosystem in a non-aggressive manner. The Free Naval Yards give them a Morale advantage to compete with the Triton Monarchy, though if the TM can nab the Maritime Control Center they they will surge ahead.

I think we're onto something here.
Yea. It's a fairly middle of the road faction, with some worthwhile bonuses, but nothing spectacular. Maybe worth having one more minor penalty, but otherwise seems good.

Green Builders (Tentative)

For the Green Builders, I think we need to work with the idea that by using the Fungus for minerals they are literally incorporating the planet's bio-ecology into their infrastructure. What kind of society would that create? Do they have a scientific perspective on Planet, like Deidre, or a reverential view like Cha Dawn?


Tech: Industrial Base OR Biogenetics

+Industry
FungMinerals
-Morale (not a serious military force) OR -Support
Ability: Hyponotic Trance (Fungal construction makes them resistant to native attacks)
Free Fac: Recycling Tanks

I'm thinking a society of pragmatists? They find that rather than dealing directly with their environment and other factions, they can stay safe at home and send native life off to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. They don't particularly care for Planet and lack an intrinsic Planet bonus, but spend significant effort training Psi talents and breeding native life (not capturing as much as others).

I like the idea of a faction where you really want to _build_ natives from a gameplay perspective. The only other example I can think of is the Annihilators, which are not exactly designed for fair play. A combination of normal combat penalties, Psi bonus, high Industry, and poor Planet (maybe even -1) seems the best way to achieve that. Hypnotic Trance would go against it though, by strengthening non-native units.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 08:21:04 PM
I'm thinking a society of pragmatists? They find that rather than dealing directly with their environment and other factions, they can stay safe at home and send native life off to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. They don't particularly care for Planet and lack an intrinsic Planet bonus, but spend significant effort training Psi talents and breeding native life (not capturing as much as others).

I like the idea of a faction where you really want to _build_ natives from a gameplay perspective. The only other example I can think of is the Annihilators, which are not exactly designed for fair play. A combination of normal combat penalties, Psi bonus, high Industry, and poor Planet (maybe even -1) seems the best way to achieve that. Hypnotic Trance would go against it though, by strengthening non-native units.
Good way of looking at it.

So maybe take the +Psi bonus from the Covenant and move it to the Green Builders?

I actually think that Aquatic factions have an incentive incentive to build Native Units already, as they are cheap Transports that can defend themselves, and in my experience it's a lot harder to build worm hunters in the ocean compared to on land. So by giving Green Builders +Psi, +Industry, +Fungminerals and no native Planet bonus, that would be a very strong encouragement to flood the world with Islands and Sealurks.

Now the challenge is to make them contrast with the Covenant. The Covenant lacks their Industrial capacity, but they aren't penalized in that area, so they can still build Natives if they want but more more in line to capture them. Now if we give the Green Builders +Psi, maybe we give the Covenant Fanatic. This would make them a cross between Miriam and Joaquin from my faction set, with her Probe bonus and his Planet. Do that and you need to remove the -Conventional Attack penalty, otherwise the Fanatic bonus is neutered.

So the Builders would end up as:

+Industry
+FungMinerals
-Support? (Not sure about this)
+Psi
-Conventional
Brood Pit

And the Covenant could look like:

+Planet
+Probe
-Economy
-Research, maybe?
Fanatic
Deep Radar
Fac: ???

-Research + Probe on an aquatic map would be pretty awful for an AI because they don't know how to make Probe Boats, as far as I've seen.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 08:32:13 PM
I'm thinking a society of pragmatists? They find that rather than dealing directly with their environment and other factions, they can stay safe at home and send native life off to do the dirty work and heavy lifting. They don't particularly care for Planet and lack an intrinsic Planet bonus, but spend significant effort training Psi talents and breeding native life (not capturing as much as others).

I like the idea of a faction where you really want to _build_ natives from a gameplay perspective. The only other example I can think of is the Annihilators, which are not exactly designed for fair play. A combination of normal combat penalties, Psi bonus, high Industry, and poor Planet (maybe even -1) seems the best way to achieve that. Hypnotic Trance would go against it though, by strengthening non-native units.
Good way of looking at it.

So maybe take the +Psi bonus from the Covenant and move it to the Green Builders?
Yep, that's what I was thinking.

I actually think that Aquatic factions have an incentive incentive to build Native Units already, as they are cheap Transports that can defend themselves, and in my experience it's a lot harder to build worm hunters in the ocean compared to on land. So by giving Green Builders +Psi, +Industry, +Fungminerals and no native Planet bonus, that would be a very strong encouragement to flood the world with Islands and Sealurks.
It's true, but native units are pretty mineral intensive to build, and at sea you don't have much spare, which is why you need extra minerals to give more incentives. They're also vulnerable to bombardment unless you stack them with bombardment units.

Now the challenge is to make them contrast with the Covenant. The Covenant lacks their Industrial capacity, but they aren't penalized in that area, so they can still build Natives if they want but more more in line to capture them. Now if we give the Green Builders +Psi, maybe we give the Covenant Fanatic. This would make them a cross between Miriam and Joaquin from my faction set, with her Probe bonus and his Planet. Do that and you need to remove the -Conventional Attack penalty, otherwise the Fanatic bonus is neutered.
hmm.. that seems mostly about right. They'll need some other penalty to replace that conventional one, but yes.

So the Builders would end up as:

+Industry
+FungMinerals
-Support? (Not sure about this)
+Psi
-Conventional
Brood Pit
Seems pretty close to what I've edited into the second post, I dropped -support.

And the Covenant could look like:

+Planet
+Probe
-Economy
-Research, maybe?
Fanatic
Deep Radar
Fac: ???

-Research + Probe on an aquatic map would be pretty awful for an AI because they don't know how to make Probe Boats, as far as I've seen.
hmm.. it seems okay but a little.. bland, I guess? A bit like taking a little bit from each of the other native and religion facs and adding aquatic, but not giving it anything to properly stand out with. Maybe Aquatic is enough, and it's okay because of that... hmmm...

And I think we should make including probe foils in alphax standard. They're just too useful to ignore, and it helps the AI.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 08:44:56 PM

hmm.. it seems okay but a little.. bland, I guess? A bit like taking a little bit from each of the other native and religion facs and adding aquatic, but not giving it anything to properly stand out with. Maybe Aquatic is enough, and it's okay because of that... hmmm...

And I think we should make including probe foils in alphax standard. They're just too useful to ignore, and it helps the AI.
Bland is the word that I'd use to describe it too. They look like every other Militant Religious faction except in the ocean.

The problem is that we are setting up two factions based on native lifeforms, and I don't know if the customizability of the game is granular enough to make them distinct and interesting.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 08:56:10 PM

hmm.. it seems okay but a little.. bland, I guess? A bit like taking a little bit from each of the other native and religion facs and adding aquatic, but not giving it anything to properly stand out with. Maybe Aquatic is enough, and it's okay because of that... hmmm...

And I think we should make including probe foils in alphax standard. They're just too useful to ignore, and it helps the AI.
Bland is the word that I'd use to describe it too. They look like every other Militant Religious faction except in the ocean.

The problem is that we are setting up two factions based on native lifeforms, and I don't know if the customizability of the game is granular enough to make them distinct and interesting.
It's true.. the other one is pretty distinct from all the others I've seen, but I don't have any ideas about how to make this one interesting right now... will think on it.

Also, I made the Neo-Reactionary text file! Uses Aki's dialogue currently, not enough bases, a bit rough, and no graphics, but it should work fine for test games. Have a look if you like.

Main issue is I can't fit both "we want to be in the sea" and NRx justifications into one quote. Maybe I can just do two?

For graphics, would a crown/throne thing be going too far?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 09:09:42 PM
For the leaderhead?  I don't see why.  You want vivid personality/imagery showing in things like that - subtlety fine, but not required.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 09:12:09 PM
I like the essence of the quote, but I think it should focus on the incomprehensible complexity of progressive society, since it's not as if the world was any more peaceful in the feudal era, which is exactly what Colton is promoting. Also I feel like an American would be the last person to promote monarchical government. The Seastead leader should be American, this guy should be British (since there is no British figurehead in the existing SMACX factions) or at the very least European.

How about for the quote:

"When iron and clay are mixed, the iron takes on none of the clay's flexibility, nor does the clay gain strength from the iron. In this manner, the inevitable end of Progressivism is the erosion of the State's authority at its very foundations. With the delineation of Power clouded by misguided ideologies, citizens no longer understand the structure of their government, and when understanding fails, so too does reason and loyalty. To avoid the mistakes of Earth, we must forge an iron State, one that will shatter, and not be shattered in return."
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 09:48:40 PM
Developer's $25B Underwater City Will Totally Happen, Honest
http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13797.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=13797.0)

Stuff we can use in the pictures, I should think...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 10:12:45 PM
@BU: Okay. Do you have any vaguely modern looking kings available in your selection? I looked through but could not find any, may be missing something though. And those are cool, but all quite underwater and I don't think we have any underwater factions coming along here.

@Sigma: hmm, you're right that it would be good to include something about complexity, but given that a lot of people who'll come across this will have zero or near zero knowledge of NRx, I'd like to lay out as much of the background reasoning as can plausibly fit into the quote. Your quote is good, and captures a relevant feeling/part of movement, but I think adapting mine to include some stuff about complexity would work better?

I'd like to include that in a pack of quotes to go with the factions though.

For reference, I was mostly basing that quote off stuff from http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2007/04/formalist-manifesto-originally-posted.html (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2007/04/formalist-manifesto-originally-posted.html)
(click to show/hide)

I'm okay with switching to british, though some monarchist neoreactionaries are american I think? And as a brit.. very few people here care much about the royals in anything more than a vaguely patriotic way. They're certainly a very, very long way from the kind of figure neoreactionaries seem to want.

Edit: New version of quote:

What has progressivism brought us? Decades of violence, with man turning on
man, tearing down his own creations with ever more powerful tools of harm, and
finally bringing an apparent end to the planet of our birth. When humans
given certain forms of freedom they use it for destructive ends. Time and
time again the complex progressive "fair" systems have been proven to not
work for people; they are unnatural, wrongheaded, and exploitable. If
we are to avoid the mistakes of Earth's decay and catastrophic fall
we must return to stable and well-organized society which acknowledges the
very real differences between individuals, and has an appropriate place
for all.

Only as a society united behind an absolute leader can we forge an island
of stability and safety on this hostile world.
 ^
 ^        —King Colton I,
 ^           “Address to subjects”
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 10:31:50 PM
@Sigma: hmm, you're right that it would be good to include something about complexity, but given that a lot of people who'll come across this will have zero or near zero knowledge of NRx, I'd like to lay out as much of the background reasoning as can plausibly fit into the quote. Your quote is good, and captures a relevant feeling/part of movement, but I think adapting mine to include some stuff about complexity would work better?

I'd like to include that in a pack of quotes to go with the factions though.

For reference, I was mostly basing that quote off stuff from http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2007/04/formalist-manifesto-originally-posted.html (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2007/04/formalist-manifesto-originally-posted.html)
(click to show/hide)

I'm okay with switching to british, though some monarchist neoreactionaries are american I think? And as a brit.. very few people here care much about the royals in anything more than a vaguely patriotic way. They're certainly a very, very long way from the kind of figure neoreactionaries seem to want.
Fair point, though as an American I've not heard about any Monarchist neoreactionaries in this country. Maybe make him Greek (reflecting the current trend in Greece of young radicals embracing fascist ideologies), which would also allow him to take on the mantle of a wise Philosopher King to couch his outright despotism.

You obviously know more about the ideology than I do, so I'll leave the specifics of the quotes and such to you  :)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 10:39:01 PM
Greek is a good idea. And I don't really know much, just opened a bunch of introductions and skimmed the ones which seemed promising+have vaguely heard about them for a while. I guess I did read http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/ (http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/) and http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ (http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/) but that's just because I read all of SSC.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 10:55:01 PM
I'm still trying to reconcile the Green Builders and the Covenant, and I'm not 100% sure that they will work together as we have conceived so far, in a mechanical way. Narratively it's perfect-- one faction believes that Planet's native life is a resource that can be tapped, and seeks to live in harmony with it in order to preserve that resource, while the other faction believes that Planet is a powerful and fear inspiring force of nature, and that they must essentially submit to its will to triumph. Meanwhile, the Armada believes the same thing, except that they want to subjugate that force and use it for their own ends. The three factions actually form an excellent ideological trifecta.

So we have the Green Builders, who have learned how to use the Fungus in an industrial capacity. They come equipped with manufacturing know-how (+Industry), but little Military experience (-Morale or -Support). The problem is that both of these are counterproductive to the goal of having them be Native Builders, because Natives can never be Clean (thus alleviating their Support problems) and Morale hurts Psi combat more than conventional combat. And as you said, Natives are not exactly cheap to build. So I don't know if the Green Builders being based around Native life is mechanically sound. Of course we can always change their penalties around.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 24, 2014, 11:07:05 PM
So we have the Green Builders, who have learned how to use the Fungus in an industrial capacity. They come equipped with manufacturing know-how (+Industry), but little Military experience (-Morale or -Support). The problem is that both of these are counterproductive to the goal of having them be Native Builders, because Natives can never be Clean (thus alleviating their Support problems) and Morale hurts Psi combat more than conventional combat. And as you said, Natives are not exactly cheap to build. So I don't know if the Green Builders being based around Native life is mechanically sound. Of course we can always change their penalties around.

While morale is more important to psi combat, -MORALE does not affect your use of native life at all (native units are not affected by MORALE.)  As for Support, while native units cannot be Clean, they automatically function as Clean while in fungus, and of course native life captured far enough away from your bases has no home base and might as well be Clean (though that's not really that builder-based).

As for native units being expensive, you might want to consider free brood pits.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
hm.. I think the green builders should fairly well mechanically using -offense and -defense as an alternative to morale or support penalties (edit: though based on what Yitzi says, those penalties could still work)? The issue is that leaves the Covenant as pretty bland, since having two native factions with double conventional combat penalties is.. too much similarity.

How about giving the Covenant free Nerve Gas Pods? Then you have a pretty different setup mechanically:
CotD has captured natives alongside boosted human shock troops which make everyone want to kill them, fitting with the whole worshiping dark gods thing, and they even flood everywhere if they do it enough like their war is powering their god. I like that, and it gives them something new+distinct+fitting.

GBs have constructed native life with a Psi bonus and very little if any conventional troops due to combat penalties, with humans staying at home.

We could even start the Cult with HEC for immediate Nerve Gas, it's a level 2 tech, but it's not a super important one. Probably drop the +Probe, that's been done before? Same for Brood Pit, that firs green builders better anyway.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 11:32:11 PM
As for Support, while native units cannot be Clean, they automatically function as Clean while in fungus
I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS A THING.

It must be a testament to how I almost never build native units, but I've never, ever noticed that this happens. What an awesome feature.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 24, 2014, 11:35:09 PM
Updated second post with current thoughts on each faction. We're making good progress, a good chunk of five factions in only a day!
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 24, 2014, 11:41:25 PM
I don't have any royal leaderheads on hand, no - but the great thing about that is that the King of X has a lot of official portraits made; you won't have a lot of trouble googling up something that suits you.  You might try the last King of Spain, Juan Carlos.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 24, 2014, 11:48:43 PM
hm.. I think the green builders should fairly well mechanically using -offense and -defense as an alternative to morale or support penalties (edit: though based on what Yitzi says, those penalties could still work)? The issue is that leaves the Covenant as pretty bland, since having two native factions with double conventional combat penalties is.. too much similarity.

How about giving the Covenant free Nerve Gas Pods? Then you have a pretty different setup mechanically:
CotD has captured natives alongside boosted human shock troops which make everyone want to kill them, fitting with the whole worshiping dark gods thing, and they even flood everywhere if they do it enough like their war is powering their god. I like that, and it gives them something new+distinct+fitting.

GBs have constructed native life with a Psi bonus and very little if any conventional troops due to combat penalties, with humans staying at home.

We could even start the Cult with HEC for immediate Nerve Gas, it's a level 2 tech, but it's not a super important one. Probably drop the +Probe, that's been done before? Same for Brood Pit, that firs green builders better anyway.
So, wouldn't this mean that the Covenant has a permanent +100% Offense, but with the penalty that they would pretty much experience permanent sanctions provided that the UN Charter remains in effect? That's an interesting mechanic which could work if it was coupled with another penalty (maybe negative Interest, for Energy sacrificed to Planet).
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 12:04:27 AM
I don't have any royal leaderheads on hand, no - but the great thing about that is that the King of X has a lot of official portraits made; you won't have a lot of trouble googling up something that suits you.  You might try the last King of Spain, Juan Carlos.

Good tip. (http://www.royaltyinthenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/King-Juan-Carlos.jpg) looks good to me, thoughts?

So, wouldn't this mean that the Covenant has a permanent +100% Offense, but with the penalty that they would pretty much experience permanent sanctions provided that the UN Charter remains in effect? That's an interesting mechanic which could work if it was coupled with another penalty (maybe negative Interest, for Energy sacrificed to Planet).

An optional +50% that also limits their ability to use captured bases. But, yes, either they forgo use of one of their biggest bonuses, get the UN Charter revoked, or everyone hates them a lot.

I'm considering a 0.5 vote multiplier and a smallish drone penalty (5?) as extra penalties? Negative energy interest is possible, but maybe not that fitting? How would you sacrifice energy to planet? - Econ and/or -Growth are also on the to consider pile.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 12:15:29 AM
I think that shot won't need a lot of processing at all.  I reckon I'll try a pretty wide shot for the datalinks portrait and mostly just his head for the rest.  Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 12:24:41 AM
Sounds good to me. For bases.. how about third from bottom on the right of Bases 16? Looks like it could plausibly float, and I like that it becomes gold at max size. On Diplomacy4, third one down, far left looks pretty good. And the King card logo is fairly fitting. Color.. either Gold, or some royal blue?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 12:34:15 AM
Okydoke - I have the portrait dropped in, but I'll get those in before I post.  Won't take long.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 01:04:35 AM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=887)

Placing shields is nobody's favorite part of making a faction graphic.

A simple crown might work better for the faction's theme.

I haven't signed this yet -not sure the faction name's completely decided, for one thing- but this should prove serviceable, at least for now.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 01:17:35 AM
Played a quick all AI game with it, looks good! One thing that should be changed is the color though, it's exactly the same as Morgan's. Is there a color between his and Miriam's?

A crown logo has potential, yea.

Edit: Attached a testing version of the faction, if anyone wants to try some AI only games or have a play. Everything but basenames and some parts of dialogue should work.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 01:25:59 AM
Not gonna have a lot of luck with that - out of 255 colors in the SMACX palette, about 3/4 are invisible against the minimap and/or too dark to read the population numbers on the base flags, and most of the rest are taken and/or too close to readily distinguish.  Believe me; I spent a lot of time trying for unique faction colors when I was starting out, and I don't think it's doable.  Caretaker green is sorta too close to Gaian green already, y'know?  -And that was from the professionals.

Actually, I put in a rather orange-yellow to begin with, and that's what the palette did with it.

I'll see what I can do with a crown logo.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 01:29:03 AM
Right. I guess we'll just have to look forward to being able to load a modern graphics format.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:06:16 AM
Functional, but artless and missing all the cosmetic text, versions of the Covenant and Seasteaders for AI game testing.

My first test was pretty interesting. The Covenant AI committed so many atrocities they hit the everyone declares war on you point, but did significant damage to the monarchs.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 02:07:17 AM
Right. I guess we'll just have to look forward to being able to load a modern graphics format.

Even that probably won't help that much; the real problem is that there are only so many easily distinguishable colors, and the need to be visible against the minimap limits your options even more.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:12:54 AM
Right. I guess we'll just have to look forward to being able to load a modern graphics format.

Even that probably won't help that much; the real problem is that there are only so many easily distinguishable colors, and the need to be visible against the minimap limits your options even more.
Not easily distinguishable is annoying, but vastly less of an issue than having two which have literally exactly the same color. With only a handful of colors to choose from, there's forced absolute conflict.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 02:23:51 AM
Functional, but artless and missing all the cosmetic text, versions of the Covenant and Seasteaders for AI game testing.

My first test was pretty interesting. The Covenant AI committed so many atrocities they hit the everyone declares war on you point, but did significant damage to the monarchs.
Would you mind me taking a pass at the flavor text in the .txt? I've got some ideas I think should work.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:29:34 AM
Go for it. I was feeling a bit stuck creatively on that one.

Also, my test game is getting crazy. The Neo-reactionaries nuked the Covenant, which started a war with sparta which they're winning with fleets of missiles. Imperium is also hanging out and being a monster as usual, while Covenant death squads are a constant threat to everyone. All looks not very balanced, but it'll improve.

Monarchs look really clunky on SE, they're basically forced FM until they get Green, maybe longer. But awesome values. Maybe replacing -effic is a good idea.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 02:33:18 AM
Right. I guess we'll just have to look forward to being able to load a modern graphics format.

Even that probably won't help that much; the real problem is that there are only so many easily distinguishable colors, and the need to be visible against the minimap limits your options even more.
Not easily distinguishable is annoying, but vastly less of an issue than having two which have literally exactly the same color. With only a handful of colors to choose from, there's forced absolute conflict.

256 is still fairly large; even if 3/4 don't show up well against the background, that's still 64 possibilities, which should be enough to avoid conflict.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:36:52 AM
256 is still fairly large; even if 3/4 don't show up well against the background, that's still 64 possibilities, which should be enough to avoid conflict.
Within a single game of 7 or factionpack, sure. But I have over 160 factions, which means even distributed perfectly with 64 colors each possible color is going to be used at least twice, some three times. I would prefer a color which did not conflict with one of the original seven, but being able to avoid color conflicts in general will be a notable improvement.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 02:45:23 AM
256 is still fairly large; even if 3/4 don't show up well against the background, that's still 64 possibilities, which should be enough to avoid conflict.
Within a single game of 7 or factionpack, sure. But I have over 160 factions, which means even distributed perfectly with 64 colors each possible color is going to be used at least twice, some three times. I would prefer a color which did not conflict with one of the original seven, but being able to avoid color conflicts in general will be a notable improvement.

However, after a point, it's probably better to simply change the faction color anyway to avoid near-matches with others in that particular game.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:50:14 AM
Do you mean change colors for an individual game? That's probably worthwhile for AARs by people who know basic graphics stuff, but if with the factionpack being available to the public, it'd be handy to avoid collisions by default rather than requiring messing with files.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 02:52:31 AM
Do you mean change colors for an individual game? That's probably worthwhile for AARs by people who know basic graphics stuff, but if with the factionpack being available to the public, it'd be handy to avoid collisions by default rather than requiring messing with files.

Point, although even there an "alternate color" version would probably be fairly easy to put in the factionpack.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 03:24:43 AM
Well - once you're past the primary and secondary colors, plus black white and gray, you get into fairly subtle shading, and it gets hard to tell flags apart.  This would be a problem without the limitations of the SMACX palette; with it, I threw my hands up and stopped even trying a long time ago, after much nit-picking time and effort to overcome.  There are only nine good colors to work with, and black only works for the Spartans.

It's just a thing we have to clench our teeth and live with.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 01:13:29 PM
I'd be a lot happier with something subtly different even if it's not a good color as you're defining it, my issue with the current color is that it is flat out the same shade as an official faction.

@Yitzi: Yes, but doing that for all the factions would almost double an already massive download, as well as slightly complicating file loading, and require extra work to keep new changes to graphics applied to both versions of a faction's art. It's worth considering as an extra.. but I figure the loss may outweigh the gains there for most people who may use it.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 01:48:39 PM
Question: would the .5 Votes for the Covenant have any real teeth considering that they will be in a constant state of Sanctions the second they declare war on someone?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:03:33 PM
Activating nerve gas pods is optional, so they unless the war gets desperate they may decide not to take sanctions. Similarly using nerve gas outside bases against aliens or during sunspots does not matter, other than making the target hate you. Also, I don't think sanctions affects your ability to run for governor? I could be wrong about that though.

It's not a huge penalty, but it seems to be a fitting one. Could be dropped if we think of something else that works better.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 02:41:25 PM
Activating nerve gas pods is optional, so they unless the war gets desperate they may decide not to take sanctions. Similarly using nerve gas outside bases against aliens or during sunspots does not matter, other than making the target hate you. Also, I don't think sanctions affects your ability to run for governor? I could be wrong about that though.

It's not a huge penalty, but it seems to be a fitting one. Could be dropped if we think of something else that works better.
Fair enough!

Quick question: where did you get the name Vathe from? I like it.

And I'm making the leader Irish, with the position of Unity's Deep Sea Oceanographer.

Also, Re:The Monarchs, what was the King's position on the Unity? I ask because he's kind of an older gentlemen, and the only older guys on the Unity were Yang and Zakharov (I forget how old Lal was), who were fairly high ranking.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 02:48:59 PM
I googled evil sounding name generator and generated names until I got one I liked. Irish sounds good.

Not sure about the King's position.. maybe some kind of advisor?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 03:48:24 PM
How does this look:

(click to show/hide)

My thought process is that, like Miram, Vathe is not anti-science. Miram viewed science as one of God's miracles (per the High Energy Chemistry quote), and likewise Vathe understands that the Planetmind is the product of a unique bio-ecology-- but that doesn't make it any less worthy of worship and reverential fear for what it is capable of.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 04:14:04 PM
Activating nerve gas pods is optional, so they unless the war gets desperate they may decide not to take sanctions.

Well, unless the U.N. charter is repealed...

Quote
Also, I don't think sanctions affects your ability to run for governor? I could be wrong about that though.

I believe that is correct, though of course it means you don't get the bonus commerce even if you win.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 05:03:16 PM
@Sigma: I like the quote. Maybe something slightly darker than "communication to planetmind" for agenda, and justification of Nerve gas (low value of human life?), but otherwise seems good. And maybe a little more hint of what they plan do with Planetmind? Submit to it and hope for mercy?

@Yitzi: True, and true.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 05:40:57 PM
@Sigma: I like the quote. Maybe something slightly darker than "communication to planetmind" for agenda, and justification of Nerve gas (low value of human life?), but otherwise seems good. And maybe a little more hint of what they plan do with Planetmind? Submit to it and hope for mercy?

@Yitzi: True, and true.
I figure that I'll handle the most of their dark aspects in their dialogues. Vathe's ideology and beliefs need to be attractive enough to gather a following, with their truly negative aspects only becoming either to outsiders or to those who get in too deep.

Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 05:53:47 PM
@Sigma: Okay, that should work. Worth bearing in mind the initial quote is all you'll see before picking a faction, and all you'll get if you pick the faction personally.

Thinking about graphics for the Covenant..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Chop-Chop-Stab-Cut/Evil-1.jpg)
has potential? Not sure about it though, open to ideas. 5th one down on the right of base4? 4th down, 2nd from left on Diplomacy2? Not sure about logo. Sigma and BU, thoughts on these ideas?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 05:57:36 PM
What about Base15,Row9? (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=282) To me it definitely invokes the idea of a group obsessed with a godlike entity dwelling in the depths of the ocean.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 06:37:53 PM
Yep, that's even better.

Also, running an AI only game with all three+Pirates/Yang/Usurper. The Covenant have an awesome start, nerve gas lets them rush brilliantly, but they kind of fall apart later on. Seasteaders have a horrible start, lose like five sea cps to the nrx, but are currently leading. Everyone hates the Covenant (nerve gas) and Yang (nuked the covenant HQ). The UN Charter got repealed, and King Colton nuked the Usurper's HQ and destroyed Mt Planet along with most of the Usurper core continent. Usurpers had been basically tied for first with nrx until then, but they're dropping back now. Seasteaders are still rising, perhaps they need some penalty that only matters lategame? Anything that hurts them a lot early may be too much for their already weakish start.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Yitzi on November 25, 2014, 06:45:47 PM
Yep, that's even better.

Also, running an AI only game with all three+Pirates/Yang/Usurper. The Covenant have an awesome start, nerve gas lets them rush brilliantly, but they kind of fall apart later on. Seasteaders have a horrible start, lose like five sea cps to the nrx, but are currently leading. Everyone hates the Covenant (nerve gas) and Yang (nuked the covenant HQ). The UN Charter got repealed, and King Colton nuked the Usurper's HQ and destroyed Mt Planet along with most of the Usurper core continent. Usurpers had been basically tied for first with nrx until then, but they're dropping back now. Seasteaders are still rising, perhaps they need some penalty that only matters lategame? Anything that hurts them a lot early may be too much for their already weakish start.

Perhaps a substantial RESEARCH penalty, but bonus research per base.  So early game when each base produces only a small amount of research, they have a teching advantage, but later on they have a disadvantage.  It even fits well thematically with a loosely organized semi-anarchic society and encourages lots of bases regardless of EFFIC considerations.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 06:54:24 PM
Yep, that's even better.

Also, running an AI only game with all three+Pirates/Yang/Usurper. The Covenant have an awesome start, nerve gas lets them rush brilliantly, but they kind of fall apart later on. Seasteaders have a horrible start, lose like five sea cps to the nrx, but are currently leading. Everyone hates the Covenant (nerve gas) and Yang (nuked the covenant HQ). The UN Charter got repealed, and King Colton nuked the Usurper's HQ and destroyed Mt Planet along with most of the Usurper core continent. Usurpers had been basically tied for first with nrx until then, but they're dropping back now. Seasteaders are still rising, perhaps they need some penalty that only matters lategame? Anything that hurts them a lot early may be too much for their already weakish start.
Are the Seasteaders performing as expected, i.e. major city sprawl to compensate for their population cap?

Sounds like most games with these people tend to dissolve into total chaos, which is kind of awesome.

As for the Monarchs, if we want to make the King Greek, here are some suggestions:

FIRST NAMES
Konstantinos
Kriton
Ioannis
Stavros
Petros

SURNAMES
Agrippa
Apostolos
Xarchakos
Arsenis

I kind of think "King Kriton Agrippa I" has a nice ring to it.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 07:23:15 PM
Perhaps a substantial RESEARCH penalty, but bonus research per base.  So early game when each base produces only a small amount of research, they have a teching advantage, but later on they have a disadvantage.  It even fits well thematically with a loosely organized semi-anarchic society and encourages lots of bases regardless of EFFIC considerations.
That.. is actually pretty brilliant. Each base they have is another social and technological experiment, so the more they have the better they do, but at the same time co-ordinating and integrating that is not easy. Will need to be carefully tuned&tested, but I like it a lot. May also need some other economic penalty to reduce their huge surplus of energy.. but running close to the 8 limit already.

Are the Seasteaders performing as expected, i.e. major city sprawl to compensate for their population cap?

Sounds like most games with these people tend to dissolve into total chaos, which is kind of awesome.

Yep. They got a bit stunted this game by starting too close to aggressive neoreactionaries and losing a load of cps, but once they had a chance they ballooned into loads of bases.

As for the Monarchs, if we want to make the King Greek, here are some suggestions:

FIRST NAMES
Konstantinos
Kriton
Ioannis
Stavros
Petros

SURNAMES
Agrippa
Apostolos
Xarchakos
Arsenis

I kind of think "King Kriton Agrippa I" has a nice ring to it.
Okay, that sounds good to me too, changed.


Made an alpha version of the Pragmatist Order, which is at least a better name than green builders, so it can be tested alongside the others. Suggestions for art and everything else appreciated.

Quote
The Pragmatist Order, The Pragmatist, Pragmatist, M, 1, Helen, F, -1, 0, 0, 1, 1,
  TECH, CentMed, TECH, DocFlex, PSI, 25, FREEFAC, 34, FUNGMIN, 2, SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, OFFENSE, 50, DEFENSE, 75, AQUATIC, 0
  Economics, Planned, INDUSTRY
  Economics, Green, nil
Giving them a good array of bonuses to start with, may need nerfing but I'm not sure how crippling the conventional combat penalties will turn out to be.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 07:32:06 PM
We've also still got two entirely free slots for factions. No aliens so far, so we could change that. afaik there's only two aquatic alien factions Procyon (massive growth+energy) and Bree (fungmin/fungnut, native, but bad research).

Or something else? Maybe that trader faction, even if it's a bit dull? I wonder what happens when you give a sea unit drop pods.. or finally use the Heavy Transport ability for someone? Or start from ideology? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_ideologies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_ideologies) has a ton of ideas.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 07:34:26 PM
We've also still got two entirely free slots for factions. No aliens so far, so we could change that. afaik there's only two aquatic alien factions Procyon (massive growth+energy) and Bree (fungmin/fungnut, native, but bad research).

Or something else? Maybe that trader faction, even if it's a bit dull? I wonder what happens when you give a sea unit drop pods.. or finally use the Heavy Transport ability for someone?
Heavy Transport is absolutely the way to go for Traders. Their leader can be Chinese and take inspiration from Cheng Ho. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He)

Did you post a test .txt for the Armada somewhere? If not I'll whip it up.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 07:45:45 PM
Heavy Transport will work well, yea. Maybe Carrier Deck & Repair Bay too? Make them love transports. I did not yet, though there's an outline I've been editing in the second post. They were the ones I was least sure of my vision for the faction after the Covenant, you're welcome to put some flavor into it if you like.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 07:49:27 PM
Can do. I've got some ideas that we can implement.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 08:56:52 PM
Aramada test file attached.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 09:07:25 PM
Cool.

Let's sketch out the Merchants.. There's a name conflict with both Merchants http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Morgan_Merchants (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Morgan_Merchants) and Traders http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Planet_Freight (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Planet_Freight) though we could rename the text file of Planet Freight easily enough.

Bonuses:
Abilities: Heavy Transport, Repair Bay, Carrier Deck (?)
Commerce bonus?
Small energy interest?
+1 Support ?
Maaybe +Economy, but then we need some hefty penalties.


Penalties:
Penalty: Green (?) - They're not against it, but it costs them more due to heavy fuel requirements?
Not sure what else here.. ideas welcome.


If we had faction specific custom units I'd give them an awesome souped up transport with loads of extra abilities (clean reactor, the psi ones, deep pressure hull, antigrav struts, dissociative wave, high morale, polymorphic encryption) rather than the three transport-only abilities, but we can switch over to that when the virtual technologies change happens. I'm not sure about penalties, or specific other bonuses, and they feel kinda bland currently.


Armada looks good. Well characterised in the quote. I'll run another sim with all five factions we have ready for testing.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 09:24:16 PM
Cool.

Let's sketch out the Merchants.. There's a name conflict with both Merchants http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Morgan_Merchants (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Morgan_Merchants) and Traders http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Planet_Freight (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Planet_Freight) though we could rename the text file of Planet Freight easily enough.

Bonuses:
Abilities: Heavy Transport, Repair Bay, Carrier Deck (?)
Commerce bonus?
Small energy interest?
+1 Support ?
Maaybe +Economy, but then we need some hefty penalties.


Penalties:
Penalty: Green (?) - They're not against it, but it costs them more due to heavy fuel requirements?
Not sure what else here.. ideas welcome.


If we had faction specific custom units I'd give them an awesome souped up transport with loads of extra abilities (clean reactor, the psi ones, deep pressure hull, antigrav struts, dissociative wave, high morale, polymorphic encryption) rather than the three transport-only abilities, but we can switch over to that when the virtual technologies change happens. I'm not sure about penalties, or specific other bonuses, and they feel kinda bland currently.


Armada looks good. Well characterised in the quote. I'll run another sim with all five factions we have ready for testing.
So far we have two factions with Aversion: Green (The Armada and the Pragmatists), and I think we can take a page from Morgan and give them Aversion: Planned.

I say +Economy, -Growth, and with their Aversion to Planned they have a very limited ability to improve their prospects in that area. +Commerce fits as well. Maybe give them -Probe to round out their social weaknesses.

Character wise, if they are Traders then we can describe them as basically spending most of their lives on ships, hence the low Growth rate. This ultimately makes them prone to infiltration as well, since by necessity they have to have a fairly open boarder system to facilitate their trading. Thus they can be capable of gathering huge amounts of wealth, but in turn they can wind up as Credit and Tech pinatas for other factions.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 09:45:15 PM
hmm, yep, all seem like reasonable suggestions. I think perhaps at sea with the overabundance of nutrients growth penalties & lack of Planned are less of an issue than they would be on land though, so maybe they'll need more of a downside to counteract that +1 Econ? -2 probe would be an option?


I ran another test game, the armada took an early lead, though Seasteaders again rule the late game. Will try Yitzi's suggestion.

Edit: Alpha version of traders ready, running another test, and dropping Seasteaders pop by 1.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 10:25:18 PM
Some alternate names for the Pragmatists:

-Neptune Harvesters (since they specifically make use of the xenofungus for their construction purposes)
-Praxis Society (Praxis being the use of theory for practical application)
-Nereus Order (Nereus is the Old Man of the Sea in Greek Mythology and the father of the Nereids, sea nymphs)
-Proteus Order (Proteus is another Sea God, who represents the every changing nature of the sea and water)

Proteus Order is an interesting one because it gives the adjective Protean, which means Versatile, Mutable, Flexible, Capable of assuming any form.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 10:38:39 PM
I AM keeping up with this, BTW - just having a low-energy day about anything that requires much concentration, like commenting intelligently on all this.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 10:40:32 PM
All good suggestions.. what do you think of recombining to Praxis Harvesters?

Test game is going well, picking up a few minor bugs with the factions and fixing. This time the Seasteaders got stuck on two bases for some reason. Pragmatists are winning, but not by a huge margin. Traders are close with them, and Pirates are only a little behind. Pragmatists basically get to use fungus as forests after cent eco, which is.. useful and cool, but I think not gamebreaking. They've lost a lot of units due to their normal combat being terrible.

@BU: Okay, noted.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 10:43:17 PM
Are the building native units like we want them to?

I like referencing Proteus and Nereus because it identifies them (in somewhat obtuse terms) as an aquatic faction more than Praxis Harvesters. What do you think?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 10:53:11 PM
Yes, they built 15 IoDs (5 dead). They're still making a fair number of conventionals.. but enough native to live by. Maybe upping the Psi bonus would be worthwhile, see if the AI responds to that.

hmm.. my main hesitance is we've already got one somewhat obscure god in the name of a faction, two seems a bit repetitive? I also quite like Harvesters, and Praxis gets across their core philosophy very well. And unlike the Triton Monarchy, I can't really see these guys looking back to ancient myths to decide their faction name.

Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat) say ete in the channel to ping me.

Edit2: Combat penalties apply to Psi combat. That's why they're losing so many IoDs. Okay, new plan, Support and Morale as well as smaller combat penalties and a larger Psi bonus?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 25, 2014, 11:36:19 PM
Yes, they built 15 IoDs (5 dead). They're still making a fair number of conventionals.. but enough native to live by. Maybe upping the Psi bonus would be worthwhile, see if the AI responds to that.

hmm.. my main hesitance is we've already got one somewhat obscure god in the name of a faction, two seems a bit repetitive? I also quite like Harvesters, and Praxis gets across their core philosophy very well. And unlike the Triton Monarchy, I can't really see these guys looking back to ancient myths to decide their faction name.
Fair point, let's go with that for now.

Quote
Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat) say ete in the channel to ping me.
I'll be out all night. Maybe tomorrow?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 11:40:36 PM
See if this upgrade suits better:
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 25, 2014, 11:48:37 PM
Quote
Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat) say ete in the channel to ping me.
I'll be out all night. Maybe tomorrow?

Sure, probably around the same time/any time I'm on here?

@BU: Looks good.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 25, 2014, 11:52:17 PM
Thinking about graphics for the Covenant..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/Chop-Chop-Stab-Cut/Evil-1.jpg)
Not bad - could use a background, and fortunately, would be easy to cut out of the white.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 26, 2014, 12:12:40 AM
mhm, though I'm not certain we won't find something better, and Sigma's done most of the covenant so I'm happy to let him pick the leaderhead, so don't dive into it just yet.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 26, 2014, 12:42:27 AM
Okydoke.



(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=888)

A word about colors, and what the artist is up against.  I went to a little trouble to do a shaded version to illustrate.  Above is full-color, not indexed.

Run that through the SMACX palette, and you get this:

(http://alphacentauri2.info/MGalleryItem.php?id=889)

Ruins the effect a little, don't it?  It's not just the limited light-dark choices either; it can't decide, as it gets darker, whether it's greenish-yellow or orange/brownish-yellow.

(On faces, it frequently shifts abruptly to a light blue on the highlights - which isn't always a bad thing, but still.)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 26, 2014, 01:02:01 AM
Yep, I can see the restrictions are pretty annoying. I'm sure you're very much looking forward to being able to use modern graphics.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 26, 2014, 02:35:52 PM
Quote
Edit: Sigma, fancy popping by irc sometime in the next hour or so? http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?spage=Chat) say ete in the channel to ping me.
I'll be out all night. Maybe tomorrow?

Sure, probably around the same time/any time I'm on here?

@BU: Looks good.
I should be online all day today.

And I was thinking about the Monarchs and I think my mind has turned around on the Leadership. Giving him some ridiculous Greek name kind of mutes the group's ideological edge-- that this isn't some would-be European aristocracy arising, it's a reactionary autocracy arising from the most antiautocrat nation in the world.

All hail King Colton I.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 26, 2014, 09:30:19 PM
Had a good chat with Sigma on IRC, some relevant parts with the outline for faction #7

(click to show/hide)

(also bye, sorry for not replying, was testing a graphical bug)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 27, 2014, 02:21:26 PM
Hey ete, what do you think about the name "Reefstrider Caliphate"?

I was thinking a lot about them last night and I think they really crystallized in my mind as a unique ideology-- knowledge hoarders rather than knowledge sharers, whose reverence for science approaches dogmatic levels. Knowledge is power to them, and a strong government does not seek to share power but accumulate and safeguard it from others.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 27, 2014, 02:35:15 PM
Ideology seems good, it's new and a fairly strong one.

Not sure about the name though, does not give any real hint about the whole keeping knowledge for themselves thing, which I consider more important than being clearly aquatic (though ideally we'd have both like the Triton Monarchy).

Perhaps Custodians or Curators are good words to use?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 27, 2014, 05:37:28 PM
Ideology seems good, it's new and a fairly strong one.

Not sure about the name though, does not give any real hint about the whole keeping knowledge for themselves thing, which I consider more important than being clearly aquatic (though ideally we'd have both like the Triton Monarchy).

Perhaps Custodians or Curators are good words to use?
How about the Archon Caliphate? Referencing back to the Society of Archons, but with a better fitting ideology.

I like Reefstrider partially because it begins with R, whereas both Caliphate and Archon begins with letter that are already being used for faction names (Covenant and Armada).
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 27, 2014, 06:02:03 PM
hmm.. University's original name was Archons, and Dio's mod reverts to that so that's kinda a name conflict.

Perhaps Reefstrider Custodians? Has aquatic+ideology, and starts with a new letter?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 27, 2014, 10:21:17 PM
Not sure about that. "Custodians" seems so blue collar, which these guys definitely are not.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 27, 2014, 10:35:29 PM
hm, I guess it does have that connotation, though it can also be "a guardian or keeper, as of an art collection, etc". Reefstrider Curators?

Also, I updated some things, mostly Seasteaders. I'm not super happy with the quote yet, but sync and see (or check the commit: https://github.com/etesp/Alpha-Centauri-Ultimate/commit/37efe29cc3ab09e3a631df32c7bfb8bd0b244683 )
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 27, 2014, 11:39:17 PM
Reefkeeper (or Reefkeep) Caliphate?

Keeper may be something that we can work with, since "keeping" is at the core of their ideology.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 27, 2014, 11:41:45 PM
hmm, keeper is good, and that's one of the best so far. It does sound a little like they're environmentalists though, and keeping the reefs healthy rather than keeping knowledge?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 28, 2014, 04:13:58 AM
How about this: The Theoric Caliphate. Short name: "Theors"

"Theoric" comes from the novel Anathem by Neil Stephenson, where it references a society of thinkers and academics that isolate themselves from the rest of civilization in order to protect their knowledge from being misused.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 28, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
mm.. It invokes http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theo- (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theo-) a bit too much, unless we want a religious angle too.. which Caliphate also hints strongly at. Most people won't get the reference, even if it is a good reference.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 28, 2014, 02:22:26 PM
See I think that actually kind of works into their ideology. They want to create a society free of religious control and restriction, and yet all they are doing is creating a new clergy comprised of academics instead of imams. The name encompasses that-- theo is both the origin of theology and theory.

However, here's an alternate option: what about the Savants? Like the University it embodies knowledge, but it invokes the idea of doing it in an abnormal manner (accrual and hording rather than sharing)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 28, 2014, 02:31:18 PM
If we want them to actually practice religion (e.g. have literal priests controlling knoewlegde) in then that name does work pretty nicely, but unless they're overly religious they're not going to want a word with the root "god" in their faction name, I think? I'm fine with having them be religious, but what you're describing is not that, and even if it is a little like religion they'd not be keen to advertize it.

Savants has potential.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 28, 2014, 02:42:42 PM
Let's go with Savants. I'll put together a .txt today that we can use for testing.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 28, 2014, 03:28:44 PM
Okay. Patch to github so I can sync :)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 28, 2014, 03:36:36 PM
Done. Here's the datalinks:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on November 28, 2014, 03:40:38 PM
Looks good! I like them being able to pick a tech, and AE as a freeabil. These guys are very much the opposite of Zak as a researcher.

I wonder if swapping the +1 and +2 bonuses would be a good idea, perhaps if the current version feels a bit strong.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on November 28, 2014, 03:42:52 PM
I figured that they need AE because they have no way of getting +Probe before Thought Control, and they needed something to boost their spies and assassins.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 01, 2014, 03:32:39 PM
Okay, now we've got all seven I'll run a few more tests. I'd like to test a fairly major nerf to the seasteaders, because right now they seem fairly OP. Going to try a major Economy penalty, which is a bit hard to justify flavorwise, but can say something like "Separate communities are not closely economically connected", which should lower the eng/base to more reasonable levels. Combine this with Yiti's ideas about research penalty+per base research bonus may work nicely.

I'm also thinking of nerfing the Traders somewhat, they currently don't have that much of a downside to go with their lovely +1 Econ. May also make a few other minor changes to others to play with balance.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 01, 2014, 04:37:43 PM
Flavor wise: for the Savants, I'm thinking of changing Saeed's title from Caliph to something like Minister, since I feel like Caliph is a little to on the nose, or perhaps too provocative to other factions. I feel like they'd prefer for their ambitions to go more unnoticed, and having a leader advertising himself as a Successor in a quasi-religious sense may be compromising that stealthiness.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 01, 2014, 04:48:49 PM
Makes sense, though Minister seems a bit too low ranking/general.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 01, 2014, 07:45:25 PM
Test seems.. unreasonably balanced so far. I doubt some would be in human hands though... but it's still a good sign.

(http://i.imgur.com/spIylYw.png?1)

(http://i.imgur.com/9sfQc3H.png?1)

Still pretty balanced, though I'm thinking the harvesters need renerfing possibly. Maybe dropping their Indust bonus, since conventional combat penalties apply to Psi.. or boosting Psi more and dropping conventional combat anyway. Armada is making a billion sea formers, covenant seems to be staying off the atrocities this game for some reason. -3 Econ may have been too harsh on the seasteaders, but in human hands they'll still thrive I'm certain. Pirates are in this as a yardstick, and they're looking comfortably middle of the road which is ideal.

(http://i.imgur.com/2wHJ7ie.png?1)

Harvesters are making plenty of native, which is good. Covenant are still friends with some people for the first time ever, possible AI bug since they're not using gas even with the charter repealed. Nrx, as usual, are having a very strong late game. Most likely due to the AI loving support and Morale bonuses from free power. I feel like they're still probably underpowered in human hands due to almost irresolvable efficiency problems. Going to do another run with some minor changes.



My overall feeling about these factions is that a lot of them have a point in the mid-late game where they get a huge boost. Seasteaders+Hab Complexes (big no-ineffic bases), Harvesters+later Centauri Techs (awesome fungal resources), Monarchs (Free Power for +2 Support/Morale), and to a slightly lesser extent Armada+Doc:Init (free naval yards), Savants with free Knowledge, and with latest changes Traders with free Wealth. The only exception is the Covenant, who instead are focused almost entirely on the earlygame and aggression.

I kinda like this setup. Each faction has a different goal to beeline for, and a different way of getting ahead. It does mean endgame may be super hard to balance, but since a large part of how a game goes is who gets to fully use their major bonus first and most effectively.. maybe it's okay to let the games be somewhat decided earlier.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 02, 2014, 04:37:20 PM
Idea for a better name for the Traders: The Tradewind Voyagers (Voyagers for short).

It invokes their ideology as explorers and merchants, as well as the idea that they spend most of their lives on board their ships.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 02, 2014, 04:59:31 PM
I like it, let's switch to that.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 03, 2014, 03:25:16 PM
I'm taking a swing at the Datalinks for the Harvesters:

(click to show/hide)

It seems that in the harvester.txt you have them with Free Covert Ops centers instead of free Brood Pits.

Also, do you have any preference when it comes to the leadership for the Voyagers? I noticed that you named their leader "Francisco" but that's it.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 03, 2014, 03:37:31 PM
Looks good, though I may tweak the claims about properties slightly/make a few grammar fixes (e.g. in within). Could you sync so I can tweak while avoiding edit conflicts?

I don't have much idea about Voyager leadership, you're welcome to put something together.

Also, I just fixed half the broken factions. Should have the rest done soon.

Edit: All done!

Edit2: I've added and synced, you may need to compare/copy the current git text file over yours in your next sync if you edited your text file rather than just posting here.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 03, 2014, 09:44:19 PM
Potential Voyager Datalinks:

(click to show/hide)

Not sure I'm sold on the title of "Navigator", mostly because I don't know how well it sits along side the group name of "Voyagers".

Also, these datalinks don't currently match the bonuses coded into the .txt. Which way are you planning to change them?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 03, 2014, 10:43:43 PM
Cool, slightly different from my initial thoughts, but this works well. Perhaps Merchant-Admiral for title?

The bonuses are not totally decided yet, the faction bonus line is what I'm testing currently, the datalinks are the previous version. I'm doing fast iteration on actual bonuses so not usually keeping datalinks updated, will check all before release.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 04, 2014, 12:26:45 AM
Not a huge fan of split titles, especially since Admiral is already a title for the leader of the Centauri Armada.

(Actually on that topic-- maybe change her title from Admiral to Commodore? It feels kind of redundant to have the leader of the Armada be the Admiral, even though it's the most obvious choice)

Actually Quartermaster may work. The Quartermaster in a naval sense is responsible for overseeing the navigation of a ship, and among some Pirate crews the Quartermaster had as much authority as the Captain himself.

(I'd rewrite the quote if we decide to go with that)

My reason for characterizing Lin in the quote like that is that basically all sea travel in Earth's history was first and foremost for the purpose of Trade, so the Voyagers would naturally identify themselves as explorers as much as merchants.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 04, 2014, 02:12:46 AM
Not a huge fan of split titles, especially since Admiral is already a title for the leader of the Centauri Armada.

(Actually on that topic-- maybe change her title from Admiral to Commodore? It feels kind of redundant to have the leader of the Armada be the Admiral, even though it's the most obvious choice)

Actually Quartermaster may work. The Quartermaster in a naval sense is responsible for overseeing the navigation of a ship, and among some Pirate crews the Quartermaster had as much authority as the Captain himself.

(I'd rewrite the quote if we decide to go with that)
Okay. I think I prefer Quartermaster to Navigator.

My reason for characterizing Lin in the quote like that is that basically all sea travel in Earth's history was first and foremost for the purpose of Trade, so the Voyagers would naturally identify themselves as explorers as much as merchants.
Yup, makes sense.


Seasteaders are feeling pretty OP in human hands.


Edit: Actually.. I retract that. They feel very nice to play, but I'm actually doing really quite poorly. Requiring hab complexes to get beyond size 3 is a huge penalty at sea where nuts are plentiful and colony pods are expensive. I'm pretty late in and am still well behind several factions on the powergraph, though I think my production power will kick in soon.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 04, 2014, 03:42:09 PM
I'm taking a few minutes right now to fill out the Voyager's Diplomacy fluff.

EDIT: Done. For the leaderhead, I'm thinking maybe Michelle Yeoh (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000706/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1) has the right mix of beauty and maturity that would work for this role.

Possible Images:

1 (http://www.gravitybreak.com/images/large-MichelleYeoh-BabylonAD2.jpg)
2 (https://hotandnerdy.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/hn-mummy3-michelle-2.jpg)
3 (http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31700000/-Michelle-Yeoh-michelle-yeoh-31740628-594-594.jpg)

Not married to any of these, though...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 04, 2014, 04:17:23 PM
Cool, got the changes.

I like how this pack is coming together. Playing a game as a human vs AI is really interesting, seeing how the politics works and how different factions develop (Armada are pretty strong). I'm not sure whether I'm just missing something in my strategy, but I feel under pressure fairly constantly. I'm building hard (minimal defenses, going for hab complexs and tree farms), using SE settings that should be amazing (planned/PS with no drawbacks) and still not really outbuilding the others. I think it's mostly the max base size 3 thing, means you have to invest a _lot_ in each base before it's productive.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 04, 2014, 05:20:20 PM
Finally ready for war against the powergraph leader who's been bullying me for tech/cash, racing me for SPs (they even got a couple I wanted, notably the MCC) and border pushing me for half the game, the Armada. I had a skirmish with the Monarchists earlier, ended up taking a couple of their land bases but lost my original sea base to a surprise attack (only one defender, was not expecting a fight) but this'll be the first real war. The Monarchists were already fighting the Armada, and I probed the Voyagers with an Elite probe framing the Armada successfully (75% chance) so they joined in. Those two hit the Armada's near bases with air power for a few turns, then I joined in and swept in with my ~5 ships/~5 air units (soon to be much more, my bases are just finishing rushed Genejack Factories) to take four bases in one turn.

red=voyagers
light yellow=armada
slightly darker yellow=monarchy
pink=seasteaders
black=savants
white=harvester
off-white=covenant
(had to drop some placeholder graphics in because everyone being black was just confusing)

(http://i.imgur.com/QcCaAFh.png?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/ATYIzmN.png?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/MU5SXDF.png)

They are hard to play early, but have a very strong late game, kinda like the morgans but rather than being mostly militarily weak at the start they are more productively weak.


The third image looks like it has some potential, but imo it's best to have the leaders generally looking at the camera?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 04, 2014, 06:22:22 PM
Got backstabbed by both the monarchs and voyagers once Armada dropped off first place, each of which has a military over five times as big as mine (monarchs have 25+ air units to my five, voyagers have 27 naval combat units to my three remaining after their initial attack) and both have loads of bases close to my center, while still fighting the Armada (about 10 air and 10 sea combat units).


I think I'll be okay, but lost a _lot_ of formers/defenders to those monarch (and armada, and voyager) air units worryingly quickly. Just need to get some chaos rotors to make the skies safe again, then rebuild my navy...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 04, 2014, 06:31:10 PM
The third image looks like it has some potential, but imo it's best to have the leaders generally looking at the camera?
Generally -I've spent many an hour moving eyes around- but whatever works, works...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 04, 2014, 09:26:54 PM
#3 looks pretty centered to me...

Also, the Monarchs are literally called Neo-Reactionaries in-game? Why don't you just go with Monarchs?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 04, 2014, 10:24:21 PM
The third image looks like it has some potential, but imo it's best to have the leaders generally looking at the camera?
Generally -I've spent many an hour moving eyes around- but whatever works, works...
Right. Ideally we'll find something with correctly positioned eyes, but worth knowing that's an option.

#3 looks pretty centered to me...

Also, the Monarchs are literally called Neo-Reactionaries in-game? Why don't you just go with Monarchs?
Ops, the way I opened the three at once confused me. #1 is the one I like, other than not facing the camera (centering is not the issue, it's angle). #3 is looking at the camera, but has maybe slightly too friendly an expression I think? And #2 is at quite an angle to the camera.

And good point. It has seemed out of place for a while, I'll change that.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 04, 2014, 10:41:06 PM
Any of the three Yeohs is workable, and I wish #1 didn't have the top of her head cropped, but that's probably how I'd pick, too.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 05, 2014, 04:05:34 PM
Other pics:

4 (http://www.wallpeapr.com/wallpapers/6545-michelle-yeoh-wallpapers-2.html/michelle-yeoh-wallpapers-6)
5 (http://www.topnews.in/light/files/Michelle-Yeoh.jpg) (Like the outfit, but she's looking the wrong way)
6 (http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/2008_Babylon_A.D./008BBL_Michelle_Yeoh_006.jpg) (Excellent expression, but too dark probably)
7 (http://img.poptower.com/pic-54867/michelle-yeoh.jpg) (Again, good outfit but wrong orientation)

If I had the time I'd put it together myself, but unfortunately this is all that I can do when it comes to graphics at this time....

I also want to find a more fitting picture for Colton, since I feel like the current one doesn't really encapsulate the neoreactionary ideology. Ete, the Monarchs are entirely your creation, so I'll ask you-- what do you think of when you picture the King?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 05, 2014, 04:15:24 PM
She's not a fan of looking at the camera straight on, is she :p.

And.. If we're switching away from the greek/old monarch to Colton like we seemed to agree on over IRC.. I see Colton as a 40-55 year old in excellent health. Not a bodybuilder, but heavily built. Ideally with some compromise between finery and practicality, like a gold belt with a small gun or somesuch. Someone who looks like a natural leader with strong opinions, able to keep a rabble organized by force of will and personality.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 05, 2014, 04:27:54 PM
That's what I figured. Honestly my first thought was Ralph Fiennes in Coriolanus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj25TGlsYTA). Check him out all decked out at 0:44. Unfortunately I can't find a good picture, and I don't know how well BU can capture him from youtube.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 05, 2014, 04:44:31 PM
I'll try, but not well, I'd guess...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 05, 2014, 04:48:31 PM
hmm, possible. I'd imagine him a bit bigger, and probably with some hair. We'd probably be able to download a HQ version with torrent and screencap off that if wanted, but the yt is too low quality to be usable I think.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 05, 2014, 04:50:55 PM
This might be good enough; I have to process the devil out of good and bad photos alike.  I'm almost more worried about how utterly contemporary a dress uniform he has on...
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 05, 2014, 05:01:09 PM
I actually think the Contemporary dress might work for our purposes. He's supposed to be a callback to traditional means of government, so wearing clothes that appear older than the ones the other SMACX leaders wear might suit him.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 05, 2014, 05:03:13 PM
Okay - altering clothes isn't the biggest challenge anyway - and a better-focused shot to work with would be nice.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 05, 2014, 05:08:24 PM
I'll see if I can find a download for the HQ movie to get a better picture, if we're going with this.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 05, 2014, 05:31:34 PM
It's your Faction, ete. The leaderhead is up to you. I don't want to step on your creative toes or anything.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 05, 2014, 06:08:30 PM
hm.. it's okay, but my vote goes towards keeping looking for a bit, maybe coming back to it. And I'm happy for this to be shared, I edited the credits to reflect that a few days ago.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 08, 2014, 04:17:54 PM
Looking to write up the Savant's diplomacy lines today. Revisting Saeed, what do you think the following alternate titles to "Caliph:"

-Minister (already mentioned)
-Didact (as in one who teaches in a scientific manner, I kind of like this one)
-Warden (to invoke the idea that the Savants horde their knowledge)
-Steward (a humbler, less obviously villainous version of the above)
-Archivist
-Curator
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 08, 2014, 04:45:26 PM
I like Curator best, it shows their keep knowledge don't share it thing nicely. Didact sounds nice and would be my second choice, but they're not as big on teaching as hording. If you prefer Dicact you're welcome to go with that.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 08, 2014, 09:09:04 PM
Not really relevant - but this here's leaderhead material.

(http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/buF9dGeOCQgBJkp_7tqTrw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM4NDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01NzU-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_US/News/LiveScience.com/johnny-depp-transcendence.jpeg1417725725)
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 08, 2014, 09:56:59 PM
Cool, yea, that does look good. Not sure which faction though.. perhaps the Covenant?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 09, 2014, 02:59:24 PM
Yeah that could definitely work for the Covenant. I actually liked that movie too, which puts me in a very narrow minority.

My only problem with Curator is that it is not a very impressive title. Maybe we can dress it up a bit: Archcurator?
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 09, 2014, 05:07:55 PM
Archcurator is good, let's go with that.
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: Sigma on December 10, 2014, 05:56:52 PM
Oh, here's another option: Headmaster

Pros:
+Reference to Hassan-i Sabbah's original Order of Assassins, where the Grand Headmaster was the leader
+I feel that it carries an Academic notion'

Cons:
-Too similar to the Voyager's Quartermaster title?

Meantime, I've updated the Diplomacy text for the Savants, using the Archcurator title
Title: Re: Oceanic Pack - 7 Aquatic factions [input requested]
Post by: ete on December 10, 2014, 07:09:45 PM
Could work, but I'm a fan of Archcurator. Sounds more serious as a leader, plus focused on hording rather than teaching.
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