Alpha Centauri 2

Other Games => Civilization Beyond Earth General Discussions => Topic started by: Green1 on October 22, 2014, 12:06:54 AM

Title: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 22, 2014, 12:06:54 AM
Summary article:
http://www.incgamers.com/2014/10/civilization-beyond-earth-ama-talks-mods-ai-and-demo (http://www.incgamers.com/2014/10/civilization-beyond-earth-ama-talks-mods-ai-and-demo)

Reddit AMA:

https://www.reddit.com/user/FXS_WillAndDave?count=75&after=t1_clfpqr3 (https://www.reddit.com/user/FXS_WillAndDave?count=75&after=t1_clfpqr3)

For those who are of the "too long did not read" variety:

- Possible to mod XML and game scripts right off the bat.
- No documentation on modding or tools at release, but "coming".
- Mods will NOT work in multiplayer, but it is in the work for future patches.
- Civ: BE works on a more stabilized Civ V code and has much of the same structure.
- WILL have a hotseat mode.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 22, 2014, 06:19:59 AM
I must say, as an aside to this low info article and AMA which the reddit community should have blasted them for.

If it is Civ 5 modding, that crap looks kind of hard. Not undoable. But, a learning curve nonetheless.

BUT.. even with XML modding, if itr is similar to Civ 5 enough we hopefully can get to where we could do at least custom factions with enough study. These ancient games spoil us.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 22, 2014, 06:46:13 AM
Problem is, this is also a modding heavy board. I have investigated the skills it takes to mod Civ BE based on Civ 5. It is a huge jump, even for artists. All those leaderheads are presented in 3d and animated unless Civ 5 detects your computer to be a low end lappy. That is not even the biggest deal. XML code is throughout. You change one thing one place, it must be in several others with knowledge as to what is changed and where. There is no one page "all graphics here" pcx or faction .txt.

BUT.. this IS learnable. Problem is, even for Civ 5, the documentation SUCKS from first glance. It tells me fundamentals, yes. But it does not tell Joe gamer how to put in his custom civ of doom in the game in layman's terms that does not cover 50 other aspects of the Civ 5 system!!!!

There will be a market for that....

BTW, BU, how is your 3d modeling coming along?

I may need to enlist in some .... services. Not now. You know the Green 1 always talks in years and months.

I saw an excellent 3d rendering of Domai many moons ago, but I am not sure if it was you or of the Aunt.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: sisko on October 22, 2014, 08:33:56 AM
BTW, BU, how is your 3d modeling coming along?

I may need to enlist in some .... services. Not now. You know the Green 1 always talks in years and months.

I saw an excellent 3d rendering of Domai many moons ago, but I am not sure if it was you or of the Aunt.
I'm afraid, BUncle will have to attend soon the "3D modelling 101" course by Buster's Aunt.  :D
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Geo on October 22, 2014, 12:16:28 PM
 ;lol ;b;
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 22, 2014, 06:03:02 PM
Green, your lack of faith will be your undoing, my young and drunken padiwan.
;nod
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Yitzi on October 24, 2014, 03:18:50 AM
Modding is good; I suspect that BE's biggest flaws* will be of the form that is fairly straightforward to mod away. (1UPT will probably be the biggest non-moddable-away flaw, though the lack of one-directional node-to-node links in the tech web, or of multiple-prerequisites, is also a concern if that can't be changed.)

*Not being a worthy successor to SMAC does not count as a flaw (due to not being BE-specific), though even that will likely be partially** moddable away.

**The narrative strengths of SMAC will probably be fairly easy to mod into BE; the mechanics of the unit workshop, crawlers, social engineering, and a quadratically growing penalty for too many bases (definitely the best way to deal with ICS, even if SMAC's approach is flawed in practice without mods and may be the wrong mechanic anyway) are more likely to pose issues, though.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 24, 2014, 04:36:17 PM
That, and I am worried about the AI.

I am currently on my mandatory 2 week waiting period to wait and hear about issues before buying, so I will be looking very closely at this.

Although, most of the whining and griping comes from Civ 5/4 deity players on CFC who will not be satisfied it seems unless they hook up Deep Blue to the AI and it behaves like MP. So, my only option is to just watch the occasional LP and make up my own mind.

I heard one guy on one thread claim Alpha Centauri's AI was better than Civ 5 based AIs like BE!
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 24, 2014, 05:07:54 PM
why would it be hard to mod away 1upt?
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 24, 2014, 05:23:24 PM
One assumes that's embedded deep in the code - and even if you could change it, doing so would break many other things in the engine.  It's a pretty fundamental design assumption.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Yitzi on October 24, 2014, 05:46:08 PM
why would it be hard to mod away 1upt?

Because, if the units-by-tile system works anything like it does in SMAX, there are some very useful simplifications and efficiencies that can be done with 1UPT, that presumably were done, and that are incompatible with not having 1UPT.

Basically, there are a lot of times when the game will want to check "the unit in this tile".  That works very differently if there's at most one unit in the tile, as opposed to if there are multiple units and then one particular one is to be selected.  It actually is such that, in the unit information for SMAX, there are entries "previous unit in the same tile" and "next unit in the same tile", in order to make it easy to get all the units in the tile; BE probably doesn't have that, and therefore won't be able to handle MUPT efficiently (meaning that it probably wouldn't be enabled at all).
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 24, 2014, 06:27:41 PM
You're sure it's not just a convention?  I imagine transports have more than one unit per tile, unless it's using a special placeholder or something and the unit is held in null space.  Or air.  I can't believe air units and ground units can't occupy the same tile.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 24, 2014, 06:36:06 PM
It would take entirely rewriting the game engine, I betcha.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Geo on October 24, 2014, 06:36:27 PM
There must be MUPT-finding code in CBE. There can be a multiple of air units in a city. Civilian units and military units can stack (one of each), trade units are completely differently depicted, so could potentially be 'stacked' as well with a military and civilian unit on top of them (however temporary due to the changing nature of trade routes).
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 24, 2014, 06:42:06 PM
It would take entirely rewriting the game engine, I betcha.

There are Civ 5 mods that do change one unit per tile to allowing stacking.

Whether the AI handles this, it introduces new bugs, or even the internal workings of the mod, I have no idea. But, it has been done without rewriting the code. Although I do imagine the skill set to do so was pretty advanced. More advanced than the way AC modders do things with the exception of Yitzi's assembly language patch work.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 24, 2014, 06:48:47 PM
I think they'll do this for us because they know 1upt is bull[poop].  1upt is a moron solution, AC just damages your units in the stack if you stacked.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Yitzi on October 24, 2014, 07:00:40 PM
You're sure it's not just a convention?  I imagine transports have more than one unit per tile, unless it's using a special placeholder or something and the unit is held in null space.  Or air.  I can't believe air units and ground units can't occupy the same tile.

I believe that air units have their own rules, but are also a limited number of units per tile, and land units cannot go on transports (but instead use the embark feature).

But no, I'm not sure it's not a convention; it may be that they did put in the ability to mod for MUPT.

It would take entirely rewriting the game engine, I betcha.

Not the whole game engine, just the parts that deal with unit in tiles.

There must be MUPT-finding code in CBE. There can be a multiple of air units in a city. Civilian units and military units can stack (one of each), trade units are completely differently depicted, so could potentially be 'stacked' as well with a military and civilian unit on top of them (however temporary due to the changing nature of trade routes).

However, "X units of each type per tile" is still very different than unlimited stacking.

It would take entirely rewriting the game engine, I betcha.

There are Civ 5 mods that do change one unit per tile to allowing stacking.

Whether the AI handles this, it introduces new bugs, or even the internal workings of the mod, I have no idea. But, it has been done without rewriting the code. Although I do imagine the skill set to do so was pretty advanced. More advanced than the way AC modders do things with the exception of Yitzi's assembly language patch work.

If there are Civ 5 mods that allow stacking, then the same can presumably be done with BE...and if it can be done without rewriting any code, then it's probably fairly straightforward, possibly easier than many other mods.  (The reason changing MUPT to 1UPT would be so difficult is that it's a different data structure involved; since data structures can't be changed without rewriting the code or utilizing a pre-coded choice, that means that it must use the MUPT-capable data structure even with 1UPT or have a switch; either way, it's likely not that difficult.  Though not knowing much about XML modding I may be mistaken and it may be that XML allows such switches already.)
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 24, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
However, "X units of each type per tile" is still very different than unlimited stacking.
If you say so.  Maybe there should be a practical stacking limit.  One unit just isn't realistic.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 24, 2014, 10:36:24 PM
Over at CFC, they have a .pdf in the Civ 5 modding section by Derek Paxton of CFC/Fallen Enchantress/ Civ 4 Fall from Heaven fame.

It shows basically what skills are needed, though I am sure the latest iteration of Civ 5 engine BE uses renders much of it obsolete from vanilla Civ 5.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Yitzi on October 26, 2014, 01:38:15 AM
However, "X units of each type per tile" is still very different than unlimited stacking.
If you say so.  Maybe there should be a practical stacking limit.  One unit just isn't realistic.

Admittedly, Civ has never had realistic warfare.  (It does not take a modern ship years to cross the Atlantic.)
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 26, 2014, 01:21:56 AM
It didn't take Columbus but three months...
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Geo on October 26, 2014, 08:16:45 AM
The only way I can think of to avoid the "transit takes game years" approach is to work mission-based.
You select location, forces, and perhaps mission time based on endurance, and plonk your task force on the location and start making mayhem (or be defeated in detail of course ;)).
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 26, 2014, 09:45:15 AM
You select location, forces, and perhaps mission time based on endurance, and plonk your task force on the location and start making mayhem (or be defeated in detail of course ;)).
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Yitzi on October 26, 2014, 11:43:11 AM
The only way I can think of to avoid the "transit takes game years" approach is to work mission-based.
You select location, forces, and perhaps mission time based on endurance, and plonk your task force on the location and start making mayhem (or be defeated in detail of course ;)).

Yeah, I think that's how it would necessarily work.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 28, 2014, 01:35:42 AM
Average Joe Powergamer just wants to know if he can put a custom faction in. He/she does not care about minutia. Maybe he came up with a cool unit. The historical wargamers came up with this all the time. Maybe just, for example, a WW2 tank will not do for Civ. He wants differences based off the Russian, German, and US ones.

After reading about Civ 5 modding, the custom faction stuff, I understand maybe 20 percent. I know the "gist". Problem is, most of the documentation is old.

On the other hand, the more modern stuff is much more versatile, if a step up in complexity.

As for as AI, I am a fan of AI. I can critique AI with as much fervor as a American Football fan who quit football in high school but some how knows what players to let go and what strategies to use. But, I know nothing of the "situation on the ground", so to speak or what AI modders go through.

But, AI is one of those open ended things. I really do not want to face Kasperov every single time if I play chess. Getting owned too much sucks. Plus, as per a famous 4x developer, the majority of 4x players will never set foot in MP. They want a sandbox challenge and personalities, not so much "killer AI" but AIs with different styles.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 28, 2014, 04:11:00 AM
But, AI is one of those open ended things. I really do not want to face Kasperov every single time if I play chess.
This isn't chess.  Most TBS games let the AI cheat to make up for the AI.  A chess board isn't that large, and it always starts the same way, so it's not that surprising that it's AI is rather perfected.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: Green1 on October 28, 2014, 05:38:43 PM
But, AI is one of those open ended things. I really do not want to face Kasperov every single time if I play chess.
This isn't chess.  Most TBS games let the AI cheat to make up for the AI.  A chess board isn't that large, and it always starts the same way, so it's not that surprising that it's AI is rather perfected.

You kind of have a point there. It is also like American Football video games on consoles. Of course it looks almost like a TV show and plays well. They have been working on video games on American Football since the Atari 2600.

Now, for the AI of chess or Football, personality would not be needed. Yes, there is the fact the New Orleans Saints have Drew Brees, but Drew Brees in the end is just another unit with good stats.

But a 4x is different. The AI players behind them need to be characters in a geo political play. Masu Masu in Civ 4 is a greedy player in diplomacy. Miriam in AC and Isabella in Civ 4 are aggressive religious nut cases. We still talk about Yang even to this day. But, from my readings Civ:BE is not to that point. What would help would be custom diplomacy language like AC. That would add flavor. I also need to check to see if Civ BE has AI "switches" so one faction would like to go one way, or another in building, aggressiveness, and so forth.
Title: Re: Modding article on inc gamers about reddit AMA with devs
Post by: BlaneckW on October 28, 2014, 05:41:18 PM
I also need to check to see if Civ BE has AI "switches" so one faction would like to go one way, or another in building, aggressiveness, and so forth.
I put all of them on aggressive anyway.
Templates: 1: Printpage (default).
Sub templates: 4: init, print_above, main, print_below.
Language files: 4: index+Modifications.english (default), TopicRating/.english (default), PortaMx/PortaMx.english (default), OharaYTEmbed.english (default).
Style sheets: 0: .
Files included: 33 - 892KB. (show)
Queries used: 19.

[Show Queries]