posted 12-08-98 01:32 PM ET        

Yesterday (Monday) Brian Reynolds put out the word on Usenet that the demo will be out Dec. 15-20 as planned, but that he game will slip into February due to manual issues with Origin/EA, the publisher. He said the gag order on the beta testers would be lifted when the demo is out. He also said that multiplayer is in, and works well. No word on demo size or capabilities, but he said we'd be happy. Didn't say, but hinted, it might be on EA servers first. The game "masters" this Thursday, 12/10 if all goes well, and the demo will be five after that, so it "might" be as early as the 15th, but they aren't promising. I'd count on the 20th until further word.

These posts were in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic on Usenet, in threads containing the keyword "SMAC". If you don't have news access go to www.dejanews.com and search for Brian's name with "SMAC" and a date restriction to this week and you should find the posts.

posted 12-08-98 04:17 PM ET            

I do think its simptomatic of the gaming industry that people have goten so used to garbage, bug ladden crash-if-you-breath-wrong but lets release it anyway so we can make money and ship out the patches later mentalitiy that people are acting this way

Lets face it, if SMAC had an AI that alowed me to (for example) sucker the oposing AIs to try a Quick city grab just so i could launch a major land war (as a Democracy) I would be more than a litle disapointed.

(and yes, i know the Govement types are Diferent)

posted 12-08-98 06:17 PM ET            

Of course I could be wrong and they really are ready to send the final code for duplication. I know with big companies that publish their own games, it only takes 7-10 days now for games to hit store shelves once the game is ready for duplication, but with small companies like Firaxis, I don't know how long it will take.

posted 12-08-98 08:00 PM ET            

Some development houses place demos at a lesser priority than the final product; the Thief demo, for example, wasn't put together until the game itself had mastered.

Firaxis has a fairly large group of external beta testers helping out with SMAC; I imagine that their input *has* been taken into consideration. (And no, I'm not one of them. ;-) I'm assuming that Firaxis was being selective when they chose the test team, and that a broad cross-section of opinion is represented by the testers.

posted 12-09-98 01:40 AM ET            

I don't think it is the lack of on-topic posts. I think it is just that we mean no more to them than the rest of the people on the newsgroups. One would think that our dedication would earn us something, but alas, such is not the case.

Brother Greg,
Feeling in a rather melodramatic mood.

posted 12-09-98 09:37 AM ET            

As for Brian's non-presence here, consider that the development team is at present extremely busy. If Brian wants to reach the maximum number of gamers with a minimal amount of effort, the newsgroup is the place that gives him the best visibility with minimal effort. Believe it or not, some people who are interested in SMAC don't come here for news. (Not that I would particularly blame them, given the lunacy that's been rampant here for months. ;-)

posted 12-09-98 01:02 PM ET            

Now, go compare his e-mail address with mine. <g> Seems to me I performed a public service--what would know about the demo otherwise?

Drakenred thinks I'm "asinine" as well. The fact is he doesn't grasp my point about "paying twice retail" at all (it was a high compliment to SMAC, not a dig about quality.)

I've looked into this forum for months without commenting, largely because it's a festering nest of trivial, juvenile behavior. Only someone with absolutely no life would wade through it completely every day. I don't blame Brian at all for going the Usenet route. With very few exceptions the posts here are't worth Firaxis' time.

posted 12-09-98 02:37 PM ET            

The more we know, the more likely we are to bring more and more people to the game, and the sooner we bring more people to the game, the more people will be brought in by our friend's friend's friend's !!!

As for the off-topicness, I really don't see a problem here, there are still many on-topic threads, it just a few fanatics that complain about too many off-topic threads !!!
The fact is, that if someone truly wants to participate in on-yopic threads, they will simply ignore off-topic threads !!! I really wish you people would grow up about the so called off-topic threads !!! This is a forum of various people, we all have one thing in common, SMAC, but we also enjoy discussing other things !!!

posted 12-09-98 03:03 PM ET            

There's a fine line when it comes to companies putting up forums that not everybody has figured out. Look at Interplay. For Fallout 2 and Baldur's GAte, they put up forums and had a staffer monitor them full time. With BG, many of the developers even take part. The danger is that it will distract them from their work. On the plus side, both games have a rather large fanbase because of it.
BG's timelines closely mirror SMAC and they've been able to tease the fans on the forum and have been updating progress constantly. Bioware is also a brand new developer--BG is their first game.

I'm not saying that the "totally cater to the fans" approach is right. Bioware has to be very careful not to spoil the game. They recently had an on-line chat with approximately 600 fans and many came away feeling disgruntled and that it was a waste of time becauase there was nothing new and the game going gold wasn't announced.

Personally, I think that Firaxis could have fed us a little more news and could have spent a bit more time here. Just putting up a board and ignoring it isn't the right way to do things, IMNSHO.

And even though I hope to be proven wrong, being silent before the release doesn't give us any warm, fuzzy feelings about what things will be like after release.

posted 12-09-98 03:47 PM ET            

You summed it up with your warm fuzzy fealling thing though !!!
It's true, there's no feeling of participation by any of us !!!

posted 12-09-98 03:57 PM ET            

The one thing that really helps us feel involved, at least one a week, is the inclusion of individuals that post here in the background story. Has this kind of inclusion of fans happened in any other release?

posted 12-09-98 08:04 PM ET            

I am a programmer myself, I know what deadlines are like, and how much work has to go into it. I know the long hours, the sometimes thankless work, the fact you feel you don't have time to get a drink.

However, I believe that in ignoring these forums, they have in fact forced us to off-topicness, and that IMO is NOT a good thing. AS CClark said, look at the BG forums, and the fans there. A LOT of on-topic posts, and happy fans. Here, almost no 'real' on-topic posts (sure, some are vaguelly related, but only vaguelly), and a fan base continually disgruntled at being ignored.

Now, you tell me which is better for the developers.

Also, if you came to these forums like Snowman, I'd expect you to be put off at the very least by the crap here. Frankly, the only thing that keeps me here is that occasionally I can answer some meaningful questions (being one of Mike's 20 people) and therefore help Firaxis out a little bit. Plus over the last 9 months to a year, I have come to like the oft irreverent humour expressed here.

However, these forums frankly do more harm to Firaxis than good. I don't tell friends about it, because they'd just laugh at the crap that sometimes appears in here (personally, I find it funny, but in temrs of the game itself, I refer to it as crap). They'd take one look, and run screaming.

Thus the whole danged point of my "The good ol' days and the (current) Age of Silence". Ferchrissakes, I am trying to help them out here. And yet, they fail to see the harm their inaction is costing them.

Snowman, I wasn't having a go at you for whingeing, I probably do more whingeing about Firaxis' silence than anyone here. I was having a go at them for answering you on the Usenet, and not telling us jack.

posted 12-09-98 08:47 PM ET            

I think the main problem is the forums were started too early. They did that in good faith, thinking the game would be out last August, or October at the latest. The early months there was lots of info, pics, designer diaries, wallpaper, etc., and about 50% or more posts were on topic. As time went on, and they went into re-design mode, the info dried up, probably becuse they'd like people to actually buy the game <g>, a lot of the older folks drifted away, and the kids took over.

For me, a good hint that the jig was up would have been the wiping of the old forums, and their not being restored. If you're Firaxis, why pay for boo coo server space to hold tens of thousands of "Join the Club!" posts?

posted 12-09-98 09:02 PM ET            

(See "Re: SMAC was RE: From the Trenches: Why Games are Late Part II"
thread)

What we're aiming for with the demo is:

a) Easy-to-download ~10meg core w/o most of frills, sound, etc.
b) Parallel "bonus pack" download more sounds, frills, etc, if you
have the time and the beer for a big download.

That's the plan, now we'll just have to wait to next week to see what
the reality is, since we're not really putting any more thought into
that subject until the game masters.

Brian Reynolds
Alpha Centauri Designer
FIRAXIS Games
_____________________________________________

Found out today we can expect the demo to "go up" about 5 days after we
deliver it to Origin, so (net) around 10 days after gold master.

BR
---------------------------------------------

posted 12-09-98 10:35 PM ET            

Firaxis is being silly about these forums. It's true that it wouldn't make sense for the entire design team to spend an hour a day here, but for the cost of about one or two person-minutes a day, they could generate enormous good-will among the fan-base.

posted 12-10-98 01:40 PM ET            

As you all know, we're trying to ship this game. It's insanely busy over here, but myself and many others still take time to review these forums. The problem is that one post is never <just> one post. It's an ongoing conversation with a dozen people that can consume a great deal of time. Hell, if we can't get everything we want done in in the game working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, where are we to find to spend an hour digesting the contents of this forum?

Well, I'm sure none of this is news to you, and rest assured that once we're able to return to quasi-normal hours, Firaxis participation will no doubt increase. Until then, just relax. We're not slighting you, or avoiding the forum because of "non-topicness". When we have time for all our loved ones (of which you all are included), we'll be back.

Love,

jkm

posted 12-10-98 01:48 PM ET            

(I've been taking care of my two-year old the last few days and watching too much TellyTubbies).

posted 12-10-98 06:42 PM ET            

Where on Usenet is the SMAC newsgroup?

posted 12-10-98 07:06 PM ET            

I do hope that Firaxis give the points above attantion, and hopefully realise the harm that forums such as these are causing. I honestly think it is in your best interests for someone to be involved in the forums during the whole development phase. Even if it is just to answer questions like "Will it be available on DVD?", which not even us vets could answer with 100% certainty.

Anyway, I have stated this over and over again, all for the good of Firaxis, not for personal greed or glory. After all, who wants a reputation with the owners as one that continually hassles them? So, anyway, I'll shut up now.

Would explain why I never made the stories though. Hmm... (joking, joking )

Still, I am sure that Firaxis will do the right thing by itself, and it's fans, and become one of the most popular games companies with the most loyal user base around.

You have but to look at the pathetic simpering above after a single post to see what I mean.

(Hey, joking again people - just poking some fun at you )

posted 12-11-98 10:12 AM ET            

Jeff: Thanks for the response Jeff. I have just read through Greg's points and I think that what he says is something important to consider in the future. These forums are a great resource for ideas and comments on what we, as games players and ultimately your target audience, want from games. As such they are an important conduit for 2-way discussions, not just on specific game features but also things like manual design what features we like in a demo etc.
If a thread was started by the FIRAXIS staff member responsible for the manual, for instance, and said "I was just wondering what you thought was a good size for the demo, what features you would like etc." then the feedback would be excellent and we would have a sense that you were listening to what we had to say. At the moment we have these discussions and have no idea if you are reading them or not. It wouldn't take much longer to post a quick "Great ideas keep 'em coming" in the threads you have found useful and it would help us a great deal with the type of posts which you find useful. Two perfect examples I can think of are the threads were Brian asked us for base names and the one where Mike Ely asked for comments on the story. To me those are two of the most important thread there have been on the forums and part of the reason for coming back here. They gave forum regulars and newbies the sense that they could help you produce an excellent game. If there was always a thread like that around I think that you could get some really valuable input. Having said all that (deep breath) I think some of the issues we've mentioned have been dealt with superbly. The colour of the text on the console is one that sticks in my mind.

Some of the issues that I think are extremely important to Posters here but never really got any response from FIRAXIS:

Manual design
Game translations
Style/limits on demo
Will we need the CD in the drive to play?

I'll stop there but I'd just like to say that although this might sound like a bit of a whinge I really do appreciate the fact these Forums are here at all and I am looking forward to playing the demo non stop for all my days off over Christmas.

Michael Hefferan, sorry if this is a bit long winded.

posted 12-11-98 11:07 AM ET            

Didn't I tell you all that you were way over reacting to the off-topicness of the forum ??? (Even, if it really isn't even that bad)

Well, there you go, now even Firaxis is saying it, I think they have the brains to read the title of a thread and decide wether or not to enter it from that !!! You people should follow their example !!!

Anyways, thanks for the post, as it's been pointed out, we weren't looking for massive participation, but just as someone said before, 0.1% of your time would have a profound impact on hyping the game !!!

Anyways, in the end we'll all be addicted to SMAC and have you to thank for it, so if you really really think in your best judgement that you can't afford to waste the 0.1% of your time, then I guess that's ok in my books too, in the end, it's a great game that I want, I just think your losing other potential clients !!! You'd really really have to do something overly stupid for me not to buy the game !!!

And you don't even have to post long posts, you can get a massive impact with 2-3 lines of info !!! It's just a matte rof being efficient with your time !!!

Instead of that 15 line post (I have a 13" monitor .. lol .. might be less for many of you) .. you could have just posted:

We're really sorry guys, we really haven't been able to leave the program for more than 3 hours of sleep a day !!! We'll be back a little more to the forum after the demo is sent to EA on the 15th of december !!!

See !!! That was about � the size, but it had more info in that it gave us an ETA .. with your post the way it is now, the really is no hard information, you appoligized (thanks for that BTW), then you just said you'll be back, without even answering our primary question ... when will you be back ???

Anyways, as it stands, there's only a few more days till your major work is done, I'm guessing your deadline for the demo to give to EA is mon or tues, so all this is really pointless now anyways !!! I think the biggest issue we had anyways, was that Brian posted info in usenet, but not here !!!

posted 12-11-98 11:30 AM ET            

How many people here REALLY posted the 13000 or so posts? Maybe 500? Less? The comp.games newsgroups have many, many thousands of people reading them every day, and lots of designers check in and participate. Brian was there in CIVII days, and behaved exacly the same way--he asked for feedback and put it to use. During the first weeks of CIVII, when there was about a patch a day, I particularly remember him trying to refine what we all wanted, and his turn-around was amazing.

Finally, I think if folks want two-way comms here it's incumbent to keep the quality of the posts up. This forum, and the old ones too, are/were a mess. Firaxis is trying to build a business, and time is money. If it were me, I'd be on Usenet too. The bang for the buck is far greater.

posted 12-12-98 01:37 AM ET            

If you decide to get on, go to the Forte web site and d/lForte FreeAgent, the best, IMO, newsreader going. Free to use, but if you want full Agent (has kill-filing and a few other features) you can pay Forte and get it.

Besides strategic game groups, Usenet carries RPG, flight sim, and a few others. These others are INCREDIBLY busy, often with very hard-core players. Not unusual to have 2000-3000 posts a week or more.

Usenet, outside games, has tens of thousands of newsgroups (over 40,000 for sure), in many languages, about more topics than you can believe. Yes, there's spam, and there's junk. But if you have odd interests, like falconry, or Helen Hunt, or obscure computers like the Acorn, or Linux, or naval science, or (horrors) politics, there's more traffic about them on Usenet in a day than you could read in a year. That's why a powerful newsreader, with threading, kill-filing, sorting, off-line marking for retrieval (for our European friends who pay by the minute), is so important.

Yes, it's text only, but that means it's fast to get. A 300-line post takes a few seconds to grab and read later. And people put URLs in their posts a lot to send you to web pages for pictures.

As to why there and not here for Firaxis, it's just a bigger playground. I think Firaxis envisioned this forum as a playground for fans that they'd look into and harvest, rather than as any two-way communications portal. And they know people here will buy the game anyway, while going to Usenet gets them world-wide advertising for free with strat gamers who may not have heard of SMAC, or may have, but will be attracted more if the designer comes on and says "here it is." Railroad Tycoon 2 and Caesar 3 have recently had numerous posts by their designers, explaining design decisions, asking for feedback on the demo, etc.

I guess I went backwards on the Net, as I got into Usenet early, coming from Fidonet and local BBSes, and the Web later. Still find the web maddeningly slow, and spend maybe 20% of on-line time with it.

FreeAgent/Agent lets you subscribe to newsgroups and leave them ready for d/ling, so every morning, with my coffee, I d/l the previous day's posts, and read for 20 minutes about naval science, economics, strat games, the Carolina Panthers, and Tom Clancy books. On many of the ngs there is a core of steady posters who you'll get to know much as you know the people here if you're a regular, and you'll already share a common interest in the topic of the ng.

posted 12-12-98 12:00 PM ET            

Ah yes... memories of dialing up to local BBSes and checking FidoNet. Playing text-based space trading games moving from grid number to grid number looking for planets.