posted 12-06-98 11:44 PM ET            

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

posted 12-07-98 12:11 AM ET            

I'd have to say fighting over religion. In fact, I challenge you to think of something more stupider to fight over than religion.

posted 12-07-98 08:40 PM ET            

-Maya

posted 12-07-98 10:38 PM ET            

However, if stupidity and/or ignorance are our greatest shortcomings, it should be noted that all other species on the planet are more stupid and ignorant than we are. Not all that bad, in a Darwinian sense.

posted 12-07-98 10:53 PM ET            

Humanity is dependent upon teamwork, teams are dependent upon leadership, and leadership naturally begets politics. And you can trace most of the major catastrophies in life to jealously, pride and selfishness rather than stupidity. I mean, stupidity is cancelled out by teamwork (i.e you know stuff I don't, and vice versa, so the team makes fewer mistakes than either individual would). But the other things all interfere with the team.

So thats it. Politics.

posted 12-08-98 02:45 AM ET            

Take a look at how much America has changed in 30 years.

Desegregation, womens rights, less political curroption.

The young are always better and more advanced then the old. I have fath that the next generation is going to be even more addcepting and socialy advanced then my own...

posted 12-08-98 09:52 AM ET            

As for religion, I'll risk my neck and say that when people declare and practice holy wars they have misunderstood the basic concept of any religion: To NOT Fear the Other. Christians had crusades, muslims have Jihad, but just as a crusader was not your average believer but rather a fanatic, the same applies to muslim fundamentalist. I'll refrain from commenting on other religions in this context because I don't know them sufficiently.
A similar rationale can be applied to capitalism as a ideology: The basic idea of valuation and trade is good, but when it perverts into "My product is worth what I can get people to pay for it", reducing the buyer to a source of wealth, the balance between the seller and the buyer is ruined and the basic idea is lost.

posted 12-08-98 04:46 PM ET            

**********
Biggest defect: Lack of a soul for dreaming and then making the dreams come true.

posted 12-08-98 05:29 PM ET            

The rationale is "I make this choice because I believe it will somehow better my situation according to parameters that I believe make myself better." It seems like pride, but pridefulness in itself is a decision to somehow make oneself better.

If people would understand that, no matter how smart they are, they still aren't a whole heck of a lot smarter, in the scheme of things, and instead would admit that "I am stupid," things would be nicer. People would then band together to reduce stupidness, for the stupidness of one is not always the same flavor as the stupidness of a another, and create a nice _human_ society... Hell, why not a planetary society (including "lower" life forms).

of course maybe I'm just stupid in bringing this up...

posted 12-08-98 06:07 PM ET            

Trust. I know it sounds rediculous, but if people could be honest and trust, then the unity I was talking about earlier would come about. Selfishness would cease. Empathy for the pain and suffering of third world or the impoverished reduced. Bread instead of guns, etc.

posted 12-08-98 06:57 PM ET            

I am more or less socialist for all the reasons you said. People say that capitalism "is the best there is," even while admitting its problems. People look at a socialist/anarchist (anarchist in the sense of no higher structure of govt, other than one person one vote, not "let's blow **** up!!!") and say, "How quaint, but it would never work." The reason is that lack of trust, as you have noted. They don't mind berating people for not taking resonsibility for themselves and doing good (as if that's completely possible under capitalism anyway), but fall short of saying, that we can also collectively take responsible for everyone else, to some extent anyway. I feel that at the current state of development we are at as a species, we have no reason NOT to provide as many people as possible with some form of basic needs. To not to is shameful.

posted 12-08-98 10:59 PM ET            

Whoever brought up the point that mankind fails to bring to reality its best dreams, you really have a point there. Communism and Socialism were great on paper, and may have worked wonderfully - but those dreams were corrupted by Stalin's lust for power, who murdered millions to secure power and benefit his twisted vision of perfection. That itself, and the fact that this version of Communism is the one that spread throughout the world, is the worst part of that mess.
Hothram: What you said about Amis learning from the past? maybe you're right. But we're also making newer mistakes. Pax Americana is growing more corrupt today, and the society may be more accepting of somethings, including race, sexuality, and what not, but every now and then there are huge setbacks...consider the torture and murder for a gay college student who never did anything to anyone out in Wyoming. Consider the race riots that exploded after Rodney King, the racial split that occured in many places for the OJ Simpson trial. The media is also playing a part in this, pandering to the lowest common denominator of sex, drugs, power, and money. The proliferation of violence in the entertainment sector alone is shocking. Unfortunately, it does sell.

Calculus may have summed it up rather well with "Mankind's Greatest Defect is Mankind." I just have one problem with it: it's too broad, in my opinion, without a better explanation. So, Calculus, if you're out there, could you explain it a little better?

As for greed, avarice, selfishness, they're virtually the same thing, but can't that be traced down to fear and resentment of of the Other? would those thing be based on the urge to be equal to your competitors and then one up them? i think that has a large part of it.

Stupidity: i don't think that's the root cause. fear of the Other not only means strangers, but also connects to fear of new, strange things. the fear of learning new things that might possibly overturn your beliefs and perceptions might lead to overt or covert ignorance in the refusal to learn new things.

posted 12-08-98 11:13 PM ET            

As for Communism(ick)/Socialism being impossible, so some countries have tried and failed. Lot's of democracies have failed... The French Revolution gave us Napoleon, for instance, although it tried to implement democracy. You can't say something is impossible for all time, just because of past failures... I could bring up many examples of this.

posted 12-09-98 12:44 AM ET            

As for Communism being evil, i don't particularly care for it nor love it, but the one i believe you hate is the twisted Stalineque version. I don't like it either, with my homeland being split along the 38th and the North under a repressive regime.

And maybe there is a deeper root than Fear and Hate for the Other. I just haven't been completely convinced...i eagerly await your view on this subject.

for Shining1: i'm still not convinced that the French are the problem...experimenting in the Pacific? We did it in Arizona, the Chinese in Xinjian (i think), the Russians all over the place, and the Indians and Pakistanis real close to each other...perhaps you could explain your argument better. no offense, but do ou have some deep seated hatred for the French? i can't say that i know many, so i can't really say they're that bad.

posted 12-09-98 01:25 PM ET            

Q3: Fear of the Other

Shining1(paraphrased): A set of genetic responses and urges 10,000 years old, hopelessly out of their depth in the 20th century

Imran: Arrogance, just pure belief that one is better than the other

Jojo: Selfishness

Q3: Greed

OmniDude: the mismatch between our ability to get ideas and our ability to realize them
(well, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it, right? )

Krikkit 1:I would have to say pride. Not fear of the other, but the belief that you are better than the other. Not the greed for more, but the belief that you deserve more.
(Selfcontradicting, yeah I know, but as I started out saying, endless discussion)

Calculus: Mankind's greatest weakness is Mankind. The problem is, Mankind's greatest quality is Mankind also. (The closest we'll get to a final conclusion)

and the duds (no personal offense intended):

Fjorcx: Fighting over religion

Maya: Stupidity

Vega: Compassion

Shining1: Politics

posted 12-09-98 03:54 PM ET            

Q3: You implied that communism/socialism were dead ends when you described them as "they were good on paper", the "were" above implies that we have reached a final state. If you had said "are" (which I now believe is what you meant), I would agree with you, more or less.

As for my thoughts on 'greatest defect', I think it's the 'free will'/stupidity duality of humans. And its inherent in the fact that we have incomplete (or even erroneous) knowledge of the world and ourselves. Therefore all choices we make have a fair chance of being very stupid ones, objectively, while seeming okay at the time. When I say stupid, btw, I don't mean bad choices, plenty of stupid choices have been good. I just wish there were a way to only be stupid in the good direction (by somehow finding a way to minimize the bad results of a choice, even without full knowledge)...

Well, that's my opinion, take it or leave it.

posted 12-09-98 08:29 PM ET            

1. "The Narcisim of Mankind"
-term coined I believe by Freud. It refers to the Human propensity to separate into self-defined groups based often on very minute and miniscule differences. Groupthink type mentality and belonging to the group foster antagonism for *other* groups.

posted 12-09-98 10:11 PM ET            

Omni: greed was not one of my ideas or greatest "hits"... a few people mentioned it before.