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Author Topic:   Multiplayer: Nemesis mode in SMAC

Rang posted 12-04-98 06:40 PM ET
In multiplayer Quake, I think there's a mode called Rabbit Run, in which one player's stats are boosted and becomes the target of everyone else.
In multiplayer SMAC, how about doing something similar. One person chooses to be the Nemesis. Everyone starts out with one colony pod and one scout. The Nemisis starts out with several colony pods, several scouts, a few war vehicles, and all of the faction specific abilities of the others.
To win, as a nonNemesis faction, you must be the one to deal the final blow to the Nemesis. So you must cooperate with others to bring down the Nemesis, while competing with them to be the one to deliver the final blow.
To prevent the nonNemesis factions from trading cities to keep each other alive, I propose the concept of Prime bases (or capitals). Each faction (other than the Nemesis) has a Prime Base, the arbitrary designation of the first city that they build. This designation _cannot be changed_. If you lose your Prime Base, you lose. Thus, to win as the Nemesis, you must seek out and destroy all the Prime Bases.
This would a way to really test the mettle of players. You say that you're the best player alive? Prove it by being the Nemesis. One faction against 6.
Gord McLeod posted 12-04-98 07:26 PM ET
It's probably a little too late to add that to the game, but I like the idea a lot. Maybe they could do some sort of expansion or addon to accomodate that... or use it in SMAC2. Heck, that would be fun even in solo play...
Octopus posted 12-05-98 12:33 AM ET
A variation on this could be done in multi-player if all of the players agree beforehand. What I am thinking of is a "king of the hill" game. You start with a custom crafted map with a really great location right in the middle (e.g. lots of resources, very defensible, etc.) with pretty poor lands everywhere else. For every turn that a faction holds a base in this favorable spot, they get one point. Thus, everyone will want to control this one base, so everyone will want to gang up on whichever faction currently has it.
Octopus posted 12-05-98 12:36 AM ET
"they get one point"
The person with the most points at the end wins. Being "king of the hill" is the only way to get points. The point leader will be motivated to try to end the game as soon as possilbe, so he'll work toward transcendance or something. Everyone else will be motivated to stop him, until they can get enough points to win.
Marian posted 12-05-98 12:43 PM ET
Great idea, I like it and write it down as a map idea worth to create
Ciao
Marian
Editor of the Alpha Centauri Zone
http://www.juhu.de/hartel/alpha
OmniDude posted 12-05-98 01:33 PM ET
Damn, Rang, that IS a good idea! And I can't imagine why it would be hard to implement. Hopefully coming up in a patch, at least.
Roland posted 12-08-98 10:49 AM ET
Hmmm... Nemesis ? The Nemesis should be an elite unit for very destructive operations behind the lines...
Rang posted 12-08-98 06:56 PM ET
I really like both concepts, "Nemesis" and "King of the Hill." Kudos to Octopus for "King of the Hill." These new modes would add flare to the game, make multiplayer more interesting, and inspire players to invent different strategies due to the slightly different victory systems. Variety, adaptability, and replayability are essential.
SnowFire posted 12-09-98 02:38 AM ET
Some refinements to both ideas:
Nemesis might be a tad difficult for the Nemesis since he has less time to deal with his massive forces. Hos opponents have 6x the planning time. You'd have to give the N a good minute to sort through his possesions each turn. And hope he wasn't a lemur when the others started winning and quit.
For KotH, have the other faction's bases start equidistant from the Hill and far away. The Hill can be an area of 9 squares, a little 3 by 3 square. Contorlling the center square with a military unit yields 2 points per turn, any other square 1 point a turn. A city built on the hill gets 5 points each turn in the possestion of its owner, but the owner won't score points for occupying the adjacent squares with military units. Taking a City on the Hill has different rules than normal as it reduces the population by 2/3, instead of just one point. There is a time limit to this game also, but not in time; in turns.
At the very beginning of the game there tends to be a mad rush to the fabled center, if you can find it (the maps would be pre- revealed, so you'd know where to send your military) to get some free points by sitting on it unopposed. As other units come in, a general free fire zone would start on the hill. Alternatively, you may choose to develop your empire first and come to the hill later. Eventually, some brave faction comes with a lot of military units and clears off the center, and sets up a city on the hill. Then things really get tough, do I war against the Morgans to expand my empire and have better chances of holding the hill late in the game, or concentrate soley on taking the hill? The person who holds the hill will soon find themselves persona non grata and will be attacked not just on the hill but in their homeland as well. As the time limit runs thin, factions that dawdled too long or never were able to hold the hill will probably start to scramble all their units to hold the hill for at least some time, and not tie for last with the others that never made it and get the ignomious honor of never holding the hill. If one civ really fortified the city, set up defenses and a good supply line from their homeland to shuffle units there, their victory tends to be assured. Otherwise it can be hectic to the end.
(PS my ideal map of this would be one giant continent in the middle, with the center a jungle of forests and mountains that opens into a valley that holds the hill. No good room for forts and nearby cities to resupply ther Hill. No easy sea transport of colony pods to the hill. One long wilderness trek. The outlying area is a mass of islands that the facs develop as their homelands.)
Octopus posted 12-09-98 03:13 AM ET
SnowFire: I originally proposed a simple one-point scheme because it would be a lot simpler to track in the game if Firaxis didn't do anything special to support it. I think your scheme might require a little too much paperwork. If Firaxis does start to support special multi-player modes, then more complicated scoring systems would start to make sense.
The picture I had in my mind of "the Hill" was a resource rich area surrounded by a ring of mountains, so it would be a really heavily fortified area, and there would be huge sieges and battles and stuff. I think that the ultimate shape of the map, though, will depend a lot on some playtesting of various candidates. Since I imagine the Hill being a really powerful city, I don't like your 2/3 population idea. I expect anyone who conquers that city will have spent a lot of resources to do it. The least we can do is let them get a nice city out of the deal . I do see your point, though, that the Hill could easily become too powerful, so nobody could ever take it out. I think some careful playtesting will be required, to make sure nothing is imbalanced.
CClark posted 12-09-98 01:02 PM ET
Surrounded by mountains, or by water? If you made the hill an island, it would make finding it that much more difficult. If it was an inland island, you'd probably wind up with a bunch of cities ringing the lake, making the whole area a hotbed.
Also, you wouldn't want the "hill" area to be all mountains -- you'd starve it death! The "hill" area would have to be a mix of terrains. More reason to place it on an island.
Of course, for SMAC, you'd also want to make sure that it had favourable weather patterns. IF Gaians can purposefully introduce xenofungus into an area, what is to prevent them from turning the "hill" into a fungus wasteland that nobody wants? What would prevent Planet from doing the same?
I love the idea. But there could be some potential problems. Also, the point thing might be a bit of a chore and open to dispute if Firaxis wasn't supporting it directly. Maybe put a turn limit on the game and whoever holds the city at the end wins. Whoever made the city in the first place is considered the automatic 2nd place and everyone else is a tie for third (unless they are completely irradicated!)
So you'd have one race to build the first city, and then another race to hold it/conquer it. The island idea would work well for this, I think.
SnowFire posted 12-09-98 09:34 PM ET
No, we meant that the hill area would be super fertile and productive, it's just that the area around it would be unift for civilization. While an inland lake with an island would work, a hll on an island would create a very different style game as you could ship units right to the hill's doorstep. Still a cool variant though.
CCLark, you are describing Last Man on the Hill there at the end. Modifications for that wouold be that there would be a prebuilt city on the hill with no defenses, and it would be impossible to destroy it, only reduce its population to 1 again. And it would be scored similiar to Myth's LMOTH: 1st place would be person who last held the city on the hill when time ran out, 2nd place to who held it before that person, 3rd to the next person, etc. until you get to the people who never got a hold on the city. Holding it first is no guarentee to an instant 2nd, that would dilute the game much. In fact, even if you tag the hill first, if every other faction gets their grubby hands on it and you never retake it, then you could still get 7th.
PS Also, a checkable option would be "sudden death." Thus, if there is a unit not of the flagholders within 2 squares of the hill city, than the game continues, but all the cities and colony pods are instantly destroyed, and only military units and the hill city remain. As long as a hostile military unit remains within 2 squares of the city, it is "contested" and the game goes on with the remaining military units slugging it out in armageddon. As Sudden Death moves on, to prevent a "camping" situation where all the factions have gathered their remaining armies and camped just outside the hill and are standing off, waiting for someone else to attack the hill and conserving their own forces, the health meters of all units start to tick down (though I don't see this as a big problem as the other 6 factions will have 6x as much artillery as the hill faction and should be able to blow the city's own artillery defenses slowly down, forcing the hill action to either evacuate the hill and save what forces they have left or hang on a little longer till the bitter end).
Brother Greg posted 12-09-98 10:23 PM ET
Check out the new designer diaries on Gamespot, they mention a few MP modes...
SnowFire posted 12-09-98 10:40 PM ET
He talked about scenarios, not much new there. I'm glad that they are including some, now let's hope that they're good.
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Author	Topic: Multiplayer: Nemesis mode in SMAC
Rang	posted 12-04-98 06:40 PM ET In multiplayer Quake, I think there's a mode called Rabbit Run, in which one player's stats are boosted and becomes the target of everyone else. In multiplayer SMAC, how about doing something similar. One person chooses to be the Nemesis. Everyone starts out with one colony pod and one scout. The Nemisis starts out with several colony pods, several scouts, a few war vehicles, and all of the faction specific abilities of the others. To win, as a nonNemesis faction, you must be the one to deal the final blow to the Nemesis. So you must cooperate with others to bring down the Nemesis, while competing with them to be the one to deliver the final blow. To prevent the nonNemesis factions from trading cities to keep each other alive, I propose the concept of Prime bases (or capitals). Each faction (other than the Nemesis) has a Prime Base, the arbitrary designation of the first city that they build. This designation _cannot be changed_. If you lose your Prime Base, you lose. Thus, to win as the Nemesis, you must seek out and destroy all the Prime Bases. This would a way to really test the mettle of players. You say that you're the best player alive? Prove it by being the Nemesis. One faction against 6.
Gord McLeod	posted 12-04-98 07:26 PM ET It's probably a little too late to add that to the game, but I like the idea a lot. Maybe they could do some sort of expansion or addon to accomodate that... or use it in SMAC2. Heck, that would be fun even in solo play...
Octopus	posted 12-05-98 12:33 AM ET A variation on this could be done in multi-player if all of the players agree beforehand. What I am thinking of is a "king of the hill" game. You start with a custom crafted map with a really great location right in the middle (e.g. lots of resources, very defensible, etc.) with pretty poor lands everywhere else. For every turn that a faction holds a base in this favorable spot, they get one point. Thus, everyone will want to control this one base, so everyone will want to gang up on whichever faction currently has it.
Octopus	posted 12-05-98 12:36 AM ET "they get one point" The person with the most points at the end wins. Being "king of the hill" is the only way to get points. The point leader will be motivated to try to end the game as soon as possilbe, so he'll work toward transcendance or something. Everyone else will be motivated to stop him, until they can get enough points to win.
Marian	posted 12-05-98 12:43 PM ET Great idea, I like it and write it down as a map idea worth to create Ciao Marian Editor of the Alpha Centauri Zone http://www.juhu.de/hartel/alpha
OmniDude	posted 12-05-98 01:33 PM ET Damn, Rang, that IS a good idea! And I can't imagine why it would be hard to implement. Hopefully coming up in a patch, at least.
Roland	posted 12-08-98 10:49 AM ET Hmmm... Nemesis ? The Nemesis should be an elite unit for very destructive operations behind the lines...
Rang	posted 12-08-98 06:56 PM ET I really like both concepts, "Nemesis" and "King of the Hill." Kudos to Octopus for "King of the Hill." These new modes would add flare to the game, make multiplayer more interesting, and inspire players to invent different strategies due to the slightly different victory systems. Variety, adaptability, and replayability are essential.
SnowFire	posted 12-09-98 02:38 AM ET Some refinements to both ideas: Nemesis might be a tad difficult for the Nemesis since he has less time to deal with his massive forces. Hos opponents have 6x the planning time. You'd have to give the N a good minute to sort through his possesions each turn. And hope he wasn't a lemur when the others started winning and quit. For KotH, have the other faction's bases start equidistant from the Hill and far away. The Hill can be an area of 9 squares, a little 3 by 3 square. Contorlling the center square with a military unit yields 2 points per turn, any other square 1 point a turn. A city built on the hill gets 5 points each turn in the possestion of its owner, but the owner won't score points for occupying the adjacent squares with military units. Taking a City on the Hill has different rules than normal as it reduces the population by 2/3, instead of just one point. There is a time limit to this game also, but not in time; in turns. At the very beginning of the game there tends to be a mad rush to the fabled center, if you can find it (the maps would be pre- revealed, so you'd know where to send your military) to get some free points by sitting on it unopposed. As other units come in, a general free fire zone would start on the hill. Alternatively, you may choose to develop your empire first and come to the hill later. Eventually, some brave faction comes with a lot of military units and clears off the center, and sets up a city on the hill. Then things really get tough, do I war against the Morgans to expand my empire and have better chances of holding the hill late in the game, or concentrate soley on taking the hill? The person who holds the hill will soon find themselves persona non grata and will be attacked not just on the hill but in their homeland as well. As the time limit runs thin, factions that dawdled too long or never were able to hold the hill will probably start to scramble all their units to hold the hill for at least some time, and not tie for last with the others that never made it and get the ignomious honor of never holding the hill. If one civ really fortified the city, set up defenses and a good supply line from their homeland to shuffle units there, their victory tends to be assured. Otherwise it can be hectic to the end. (PS my ideal map of this would be one giant continent in the middle, with the center a jungle of forests and mountains that opens into a valley that holds the hill. No good room for forts and nearby cities to resupply ther Hill. No easy sea transport of colony pods to the hill. One long wilderness trek. The outlying area is a mass of islands that the facs develop as their homelands.)
Octopus	posted 12-09-98 03:13 AM ET SnowFire: I originally proposed a simple one-point scheme because it would be a lot simpler to track in the game if Firaxis didn't do anything special to support it. I think your scheme might require a little too much paperwork. If Firaxis does start to support special multi-player modes, then more complicated scoring systems would start to make sense. The picture I had in my mind of "the Hill" was a resource rich area surrounded by a ring of mountains, so it would be a really heavily fortified area, and there would be huge sieges and battles and stuff. I think that the ultimate shape of the map, though, will depend a lot on some playtesting of various candidates. Since I imagine the Hill being a really powerful city, I don't like your 2/3 population idea. I expect anyone who conquers that city will have spent a lot of resources to do it. The least we can do is let them get a nice city out of the deal . I do see your point, though, that the Hill could easily become too powerful, so nobody could ever take it out. I think some careful playtesting will be required, to make sure nothing is imbalanced.
CClark	posted 12-09-98 01:02 PM ET Surrounded by mountains, or by water? If you made the hill an island, it would make finding it that much more difficult. If it was an inland island, you'd probably wind up with a bunch of cities ringing the lake, making the whole area a hotbed. Also, you wouldn't want the "hill" area to be all mountains -- you'd starve it death! The "hill" area would have to be a mix of terrains. More reason to place it on an island. Of course, for SMAC, you'd also want to make sure that it had favourable weather patterns. IF Gaians can purposefully introduce xenofungus into an area, what is to prevent them from turning the "hill" into a fungus wasteland that nobody wants? What would prevent Planet from doing the same? I love the idea. But there could be some potential problems. Also, the point thing might be a bit of a chore and open to dispute if Firaxis wasn't supporting it directly. Maybe put a turn limit on the game and whoever holds the city at the end wins. Whoever made the city in the first place is considered the automatic 2nd place and everyone else is a tie for third (unless they are completely irradicated!) So you'd have one race to build the first city, and then another race to hold it/conquer it. The island idea would work well for this, I think.
SnowFire	posted 12-09-98 09:34 PM ET No, we meant that the hill area would be super fertile and productive, it's just that the area around it would be unift for civilization. While an inland lake with an island would work, a hll on an island would create a very different style game as you could ship units right to the hill's doorstep. Still a cool variant though. CCLark, you are describing Last Man on the Hill there at the end. Modifications for that wouold be that there would be a prebuilt city on the hill with no defenses, and it would be impossible to destroy it, only reduce its population to 1 again. And it would be scored similiar to Myth's LMOTH: 1st place would be person who last held the city on the hill when time ran out, 2nd place to who held it before that person, 3rd to the next person, etc. until you get to the people who never got a hold on the city. Holding it first is no guarentee to an instant 2nd, that would dilute the game much. In fact, even if you tag the hill first, if every other faction gets their grubby hands on it and you never retake it, then you could still get 7th. PS Also, a checkable option would be "sudden death." Thus, if there is a unit not of the flagholders within 2 squares of the hill city, than the game continues, but all the cities and colony pods are instantly destroyed, and only military units and the hill city remain. As long as a hostile military unit remains within 2 squares of the city, it is "contested" and the game goes on with the remaining military units slugging it out in armageddon. As Sudden Death moves on, to prevent a "camping" situation where all the factions have gathered their remaining armies and camped just outside the hill and are standing off, waiting for someone else to attack the hill and conserving their own forces, the health meters of all units start to tick down (though I don't see this as a big problem as the other 6 factions will have 6x as much artillery as the hill faction and should be able to blow the city's own artillery defenses slowly down, forcing the hill action to either evacuate the hill and save what forces they have left or hang on a little longer till the bitter end).
Brother Greg	posted 12-09-98 10:23 PM ET Check out the new designer diaries on Gamespot, they mention a few MP modes...
SnowFire	posted 12-09-98 10:40 PM ET He talked about scenarios, not much new there. I'm glad that they are including some, now let's hope that they're good.