Can mod fac pacs ever be better than Firaxis originals?

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Author Topic:   Can mod fac pacs ever be better than Firaxis originals?

Rang posted 12-03-98 06:36 PM ET
In SMAC, you will be able to create custom factions and trade them with friends. But will these mod facs ever be better than the Firaxis factions that have been extensively playtested? The mod facs might be more powerful in brute force, or given unfair advantages, but they might not stand up to fun longterm play. Firaxis has devoted a lot of time to gamebalance and gameplay. Modifying the factions threatens to destroy this balance and fun.
CClark posted 12-03-98 06:50 PM ET
Depends on how they do it...
If every advantage has an equal disadvantage, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Obviously, there may be some "magic faction" where the advantages perfectly mesh with your play style and the disadvantages don't interfere with your style of play, but that will be different for everyone. One person's ultimate faction may be another person's least favorite one.
On the other hand, if there is no inherent balancing mechanism, then things will probably get ugly really fast.
It might be nice for Firaxis to add a little switch to teh multiplayer menu for "No custom factions". That way a host could determine if they want custom factions or if they only want to allow the basic factions to be played. (Might be useful for leagues and tournaments, just in case somebody wanted to cheat...)
Gord McLeod posted 12-03-98 07:08 PM ET
I think they were playtesting more than just the factions as designed - they were testing the way the factions were created, the system of checks and balances in the ethical/philosophical selections that determine how the factions are run. The custom factions will be created with the same system, so no matter what you choose, you gain some benefit and take some consequences for the choice...
SnowFire posted 12-03-98 08:55 PM ET
Here's a way to solve the problem: have a list of faction abilities, like in MOO II. Your custom faction can only add up to plus 10, say. But the Firaxis factions add up to 12. So you could find a custom fac that may better fit your playing style, but you have to take a slight hit in points. This will keep the originals popular among the stingy.
Keith Bennett posted 12-03-98 10:33 PM ET
From what I've seen of the factions, there are supposed to be 12 areas + a special ability (not sure how faction specific secret projects would be assigned... but I know there are 32 total projects, and each faction gets 4). Further these 12 seem to be either +1s (give a bonus) or -1s (penalty). I THINK the factions only have 2 of each, which implies that they balance out.
Gaians have an efficiency and native bonus, but a military penalty. Belivers have morale bonus but research and native penalties, Spartans have the military bonus and production penalty, etc. Clearly we don't know everything, yet.
I would hope that Fiaxis is playtesting to make sure that some areas are not more / less important than others - does the Spartan military advantage really outweigh the UoP's research advantage? Is the Gaean military penalty worse than Morgan's population limits?
I also know that in game social tech improvements have effects if you research and adopt them(the ruthless / idealistic discussion in the 8 areas - medicine, economy, military, etc), but I think that the 3 choices are balanced, rather than being good, middle, or bad the way basic faction stats are. It is a question of which attributes you value more - Is the research bonus of an open information net worth the decreased security which allows infiltration and espionage? Or vice versa?
Decisions on these issues will likely revolve around game play rather than personal preference - someone next door to the Hive will likely want to up security to keep the Hive (Probe +1) from stealing their information, but would likely not worry about a UoP (Probe -1) neighbor, and decisions would further be based on your diplomatic relations with them.
And does anyone know what Efficiency effects? My best guess is loss of production similar to waste / corruption in Civ 2.
Mortis posted 12-04-98 12:43 AM ET
They shoul'd have a competiton, who make the best version of the 8th faction, the Canadians. They could even include them as an easter egg.
Antiam posted 12-04-98 02:06 AM ET
My original impression was that custom factions would be made by letting the user choose values in a predetermined scale. For instance there's a slide bar for research and production, you can have one at a max and the other at a min or something in between. Personnally I think just being able to change the faction names, colors, etc would be fun, if superficial.
It is probably a good idea for Firaxis to include the option to disable custom factions in MP. Jedi Knight was plagued by cheating problems when it came out. And still is to some extent. A rigorous system of checks and balances would be needed and even then some people will find ways around them. Of course playing with people you know is the best way to avoid cheating, but...
Antiam
CClark posted 12-04-98 02:57 PM ET
First off, Keith, Greg - where do you get your info from?!?! You seem to have a pipeline to Firaxis.
Secondly, I really do hope they spend a lot of time in Balancing. I always found that MOO2 had some problems. Basically, the darn Sakkra and Klackons would always whoop my butt! The Sakkra had large, fast growing populations that allowed them to quickly get a high production level up. The high production allowed them to build buildings quicker which led to even higher production (factories) or more research (universities, etc.) The Klackons had a racial +2 bonus to production.
It seemed like whoever was first out the gate with production had a HUGE advantage. Because the Sakkra got their advantage from a huge population, they could better balance the needs of their empire than the Klackons and so did even better.
In MOM, the problem was with the heroes. Alone they weren't too bad. But once you started casting spells on them and giving them magic items, they could become completely unstoppable forces and could expand your empire through conquest in no time.
I would hate to see some flaw in SMAC that gives one faction a HUGE advantage at one stage or another. For instance, the PK advantage of larger cities could be quite the edge if they make it to the end game. Likewise, the UoP could be at a huge disadvantage early on when everyone is technologically equal as their bonus wouldn't have done them any good. In the middle game, the UoP will probably do well because they will be far enough ahead and have a big enough base to use that advantage. In the end game though, if the other factions have caught up, the UoP will be behind the 8-ball again.
Regardless of how the custom factions are created, it'll probably be impossible for Firaxis to test all possible combinations. Hopefully everything is balanced and you won't be able to create a faction that is heavily weighted to be first out of the gate or some such.
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Author	Topic: Can mod fac pacs ever be better than Firaxis originals?
Rang	posted 12-03-98 06:36 PM ET In SMAC, you will be able to create custom factions and trade them with friends. But will these mod facs ever be better than the Firaxis factions that have been extensively playtested? The mod facs might be more powerful in brute force, or given unfair advantages, but they might not stand up to fun longterm play. Firaxis has devoted a lot of time to gamebalance and gameplay. Modifying the factions threatens to destroy this balance and fun.
CClark	posted 12-03-98 06:50 PM ET Depends on how they do it... If every advantage has an equal disadvantage, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Obviously, there may be some "magic faction" where the advantages perfectly mesh with your play style and the disadvantages don't interfere with your style of play, but that will be different for everyone. One person's ultimate faction may be another person's least favorite one. On the other hand, if there is no inherent balancing mechanism, then things will probably get ugly really fast. It might be nice for Firaxis to add a little switch to teh multiplayer menu for "No custom factions". That way a host could determine if they want custom factions or if they only want to allow the basic factions to be played. (Might be useful for leagues and tournaments, just in case somebody wanted to cheat...)
Gord McLeod	posted 12-03-98 07:08 PM ET I think they were playtesting more than just the factions as designed - they were testing the way the factions were created, the system of checks and balances in the ethical/philosophical selections that determine how the factions are run. The custom factions will be created with the same system, so no matter what you choose, you gain some benefit and take some consequences for the choice...
SnowFire	posted 12-03-98 08:55 PM ET Here's a way to solve the problem: have a list of faction abilities, like in MOO II. Your custom faction can only add up to plus 10, say. But the Firaxis factions add up to 12. So you could find a custom fac that may better fit your playing style, but you have to take a slight hit in points. This will keep the originals popular among the stingy.
Keith Bennett	posted 12-03-98 10:33 PM ET From what I've seen of the factions, there are supposed to be 12 areas + a special ability (not sure how faction specific secret projects would be assigned... but I know there are 32 total projects, and each faction gets 4). Further these 12 seem to be either +1s (give a bonus) or -1s (penalty). I THINK the factions only have 2 of each, which implies that they balance out. Gaians have an efficiency and native bonus, but a military penalty. Belivers have morale bonus but research and native penalties, Spartans have the military bonus and production penalty, etc. Clearly we don't know everything, yet. I would hope that Fiaxis is playtesting to make sure that some areas are not more / less important than others - does the Spartan military advantage really outweigh the UoP's research advantage? Is the Gaean military penalty worse than Morgan's population limits? I also know that in game social tech improvements have effects if you research and adopt them(the ruthless / idealistic discussion in the 8 areas - medicine, economy, military, etc), but I think that the 3 choices are balanced, rather than being good, middle, or bad the way basic faction stats are. It is a question of which attributes you value more - Is the research bonus of an open information net worth the decreased security which allows infiltration and espionage? Or vice versa? Decisions on these issues will likely revolve around game play rather than personal preference - someone next door to the Hive will likely want to up security to keep the Hive (Probe +1) from stealing their information, but would likely not worry about a UoP (Probe -1) neighbor, and decisions would further be based on your diplomatic relations with them. And does anyone know what Efficiency effects? My best guess is loss of production similar to waste / corruption in Civ 2.
Mortis	posted 12-04-98 12:43 AM ET They shoul'd have a competiton, who make the best version of the 8th faction, the Canadians. They could even include them as an easter egg.
Antiam	posted 12-04-98 02:06 AM ET My original impression was that custom factions would be made by letting the user choose values in a predetermined scale. For instance there's a slide bar for research and production, you can have one at a max and the other at a min or something in between. Personnally I think just being able to change the faction names, colors, etc would be fun, if superficial. It is probably a good idea for Firaxis to include the option to disable custom factions in MP. Jedi Knight was plagued by cheating problems when it came out. And still is to some extent. A rigorous system of checks and balances would be needed and even then some people will find ways around them. Of course playing with people you know is the best way to avoid cheating, but... Antiam
CClark	posted 12-04-98 02:57 PM ET First off, Keith, Greg - where do you get your info from?!?! You seem to have a pipeline to Firaxis. Secondly, I really do hope they spend a lot of time in Balancing. I always found that MOO2 had some problems. Basically, the darn Sakkra and Klackons would always whoop my butt! The Sakkra had large, fast growing populations that allowed them to quickly get a high production level up. The high production allowed them to build buildings quicker which led to even higher production (factories) or more research (universities, etc.) The Klackons had a racial +2 bonus to production. It seemed like whoever was first out the gate with production had a HUGE advantage. Because the Sakkra got their advantage from a huge population, they could better balance the needs of their empire than the Klackons and so did even better. In MOM, the problem was with the heroes. Alone they weren't too bad. But once you started casting spells on them and giving them magic items, they could become completely unstoppable forces and could expand your empire through conquest in no time. I would hate to see some flaw in SMAC that gives one faction a HUGE advantage at one stage or another. For instance, the PK advantage of larger cities could be quite the edge if they make it to the end game. Likewise, the UoP could be at a huge disadvantage early on when everyone is technologically equal as their bonus wouldn't have done them any good. In the middle game, the UoP will probably do well because they will be far enough ahead and have a big enough base to use that advantage. In the end game though, if the other factions have caught up, the UoP will be behind the 8-ball again. Regardless of how the custom factions are created, it'll probably be impossible for Firaxis to test all possible combinations. Hopefully everything is balanced and you won't be able to create a faction that is heavily weighted to be first out of the gate or some such.