posted 11-29-98 03:03 PM ET            

The Human Hive is one of the evil factions. Commie bastards who mindwipe people, & stamp on, & spit on the very things I hold closest to my heart, religion & freedom. It is my official vow, that I will destroy the Human Hive first & foremost, before they get the chance to hurt humanity more than they already have.

I guess evilness is all in viewpoint. I bet somebody considers the PK's evil!

posted 11-29-98 06:57 PM ET            

None of the factions are inherently evil. All of the factions have, as their root, the same goal, the prosperity, survival, and maximized potential of the human race. However, the differences in perspective on just what makes humans prosperous, survivable, or what maximizes our potential.

From the peacekeeper perspective, we value most highly humanistic values of human individualism, human dignity, human rights, and a system of ethics and law that respects all of them. We judge other factions on their committment to the ideals of human dignity, human rights, human individualism, and other humanistic ethics because we believe such values transcend national or factional borders and lines. Such values are what define humanity as a species, it is what we are.

With such a background, it is easy to see how many of the factions, while pursuing the same goal of maximizing human potential and prosperity, have been misguided into "evil" behavior that is in fact contrary to what is best for humanity and the individual human. The Hive, in seeking out maximized production potential and unity has inadvertently trampled on human individuality, human dignity, and human rights. They attempt to establish a society, more than any other faction, which is contrary to the inherent values of humanity. The Peacekeepers, valuing humanity, its individuality and dignity for what it is, see such attempts by the Hive as futile and foolish. The Spartans, in their quest for human survival for themselves, have forgotten their brotherhood to the rest of humanity and forsaken human rights. The Morganites, in their quest for human individuality have done great good, but their lack of concern for human dignity and sometimes human rights is of much concern. The Gaians have sought human dignity and individuality through the context of it's relationship with nature. This is a very comendable goal, but the Gaians could afford to do more to listen to discenting opinions and open themselves to more pluralistic views. The Believers have, in search of servitude to their deity, forsaken human dignity and human rights. They attempt to place all human action as subservient to their deity, ignoring other forms of worship and ignoring the inherent values of humanity that strive for human freedom. The UofP has sought the greatest and most comendable of quests, the search for truth. However, the UofP's lack of concern for the repurcusions of their actions and their lack of concern for how human dignity may be lost through some of their actions, if not human rights, is very troublesome. The UofP would do best to carefully consider the repurcusions of its discoveries upon humanity before subjecting humanity to possible horrors of its Pandora's box.

The Peacekeepers have set our goal as the reconciliation and joint respect for the dignity and rights of all humans. We seek peace above all else, which, although many times difficult to obtain, is the best condition for the maximized growth of human potential. We have a pluralistic society in which we respect the views and persepctives of all. We carefully consider the repurcussions of our discoveries and actions to ensure a respect for human dignity, human individuality, human rights, survivablitiy, and the end goal of peace and prosperity.

The Peacekeepers are the most humanistic faction, being the faction most able to take all humans forward together into the a peaceful and prosperous future in which the dignity and rights of every human being is respected.

posted 11-29-98 07:28 PM ET            

"You sound like Castro defenders, guys."

And you sound like a defender of robber barons and forced child labor. The Hive has no love for Castro, but if Castro is the limit to your conception of evil, then you live a very sheltered life. The Nazi party was staunchly anti-communist. Would you not consider them evil? Besides, the Hive is not one of the foolish Stalinist regimes you seek to link us to, we are a new society, a new society conceived for a new planet.

posted 11-29-98 07:36 PM ET            

Castro is evil, and the Nazi regime was evil as well. But the Nazis also persecuted those who advocated the Adam Smith, free market view of the economy. And Stalin and Lenin killed more than Hitler, numerically. In fact, Stalin was rather chummy with Hitler until Hitler attacked the USSR. How do you think the communists got control of Eastern Europe? Indicating that those who are anti-communist are pro-Nazi is foolish, at best.

posted 11-29-98 08:25 PM ET            

"The Human Hive is led by Sheng-Ji Yang and is an atheist police state. A ruthlessly run machine, the Human Hive gets bonuses in growth and industry, but has a slower economy. Each Hive city also gets free defenses."

Seems as if Firaxis has changed their opinion of the Hive, realizing its true greatness (i.e. they've got an industry bonus now, not a -1)

"Indicating that those who are anti-communist are pro-Nazi is foolish, at best."

I never said that anti-communists = pro-Nazi, I said that there are plenty of evil people in the world who are not communists.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" is a statement the Hive will live by, not just give lip-service to.

"Competion promotes high quality products at low costs. Competion ensures high quality."

posted 11-29-98 08:47 PM ET            

Peacekeepers: Good. They stand for human dignity and democracy, and want to discourage war. Definitely the "goodest."

Gaians: Good. They protect the enviornment, maybe with a little single minded zeal that could lead them down the dark path if they covered their eyes to all else. But mostly good.

UoP: Neutral, trending upward: The pursuit of knowledge is noble. And Zhakarov's vision of the future on Chiron is as well, according to the story. But the UoP does not seem to care HOW that utopia is achieved, and will trample over some human rights for the greater good. They could be good, but they could also be bad.

Belivers: The Belivers defy a traditional good, evil, neutral rating. They are obsessed with good in that they want to destroy all those that would oppose God's vision of a spiritual world where all live at peace. But they are blinded by this goal that they may fail to make distinctions between true evil- like the Hive- and simple freedom to dissent, like in the PK's. They may end up viewing everyone as so far below their level that they are all evil, which they aren't. The singlemindedness on purity is nice, but they must accept that some of the forces of good may have flaws and that's not a reason to destroy them outright. Could go either way- attack the true evil, or get lost in meaninless distinctions and attack the "good guys."

Morgans: True Neutral. The Morgans care mainly about profit, and if profit is best made by joining the side of good, they will do that; if it is best done by not doing anything, they will do that; and they will join the forces of evil if they feel that is best. Morganite soceity is not really that bad; it just has a troubling lack of goodness, in that it doesn't really care about how the lesser proveleged do; they won't oppress them, just let them live in squalor with no help from the government.

Spartans: Neutral, leaning downward. The Spartans, like the Morgans, will do whatever they feel best improves their chances for survival. And they will do anything to further that goal, like assisinations and other evil acts. While the Spartans are not inherently evil, their military emphasis on unity can go to far and reduce civil rights. So they can go either way, and end up a good and righteous society or an evil one.

posted 11-29-98 09:04 PM ET            

"Humans are not machine parts that are expendable, replaceable, and non-thinking."

How true. Humans are so much more, which is why the "machine" that they make up is so much greater than any mechanical contraption that the UoP could dream up. The Human Hive values each individual, because each individual makes a unique contribution to the entire society, that no other individual could make in the exact same way. By allowing each member to contribute to the society in the way that he or she is best able, the Hive is able to achieve an efficiency undreamed of in the other factions.

"Who cares that your friend died? There are many more capable warrriors handy who will replace him next to you."

posted 11-29-98 09:04 PM ET            

Octopus what are you talking about? Anyone that has a basic comprehension of economics can tell you that Capitalism promotes new technologies, and high quality at low prices. It is a basic tenant of economics. Higher quality goods have to be produced to try to outsell the other guy, and prices will be forced down to do the same. Shame on you, read an economics book, before critising capitalist economies.

posted 11-29-98 09:53 PM ET            

Capitalist systems are basically Darwinian systems, except that instead of "survival of the fittest", you have "survival of the profitable". In order for a company to continue, it must remain profitable. There are numerous strategies to maintain a profitable enterprise, and providing a high quality inexpensive product is only one of them, and maybe not even the best one. Look at Microsoft. Their products are neither inexpensive nor of high quality, yet they are immensely profitable (and don't try to tell me that they're giving us new technology). Just as nature has shown amazing diversity in the number of ways that organisms can survive, capitalist firms can show great diversity in the way the remain profitable.

In nature, Darwinian selection does not select for "bigger, stronger" animals, or "smarter" animals, it selects for animals which are more likely to survive in their environments, because survival is the operative mechanism. In a capitalist society, profitable entities are selected for, because profitability is the selection mechanism. Quality, price, and technology are second order effects.

posted 11-29-98 10:27 PM ET            

According to virtually everyone, the Mac was more "accessible" to end users. And the low cost of the PC is attributable more to the cut-throat world of harware than to software. I believe the OS now makes up a larger share of the cost of a computing system than it ever has before (I read this on the web somewhere in conjunction with the Microsoft anti-trust case). This is Microsoft's contribution to lower costs? Hooray for capitalism!

posted 11-29-98 11:02 PM ET            

"the low cost of the PC is attributable more to the cut-throat world of harware than to software"

Hmm, couldn't this only happen in capitalism? Low prices, better quality. You've just done yourself in, my boy.

posted 11-29-98 11:42 PM ET            

The Morgan Conglomerate does not model itself after a free market, however, like those cut-throat hardware makers. It models itself as a Corporation, with all of the inefficincies inherrent in those organizations. You model yourselves on IBM, the big losers in the PC revolution.