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Borodino posted 11-27-98 10:38 PM ET
In the Iraqi crisis thread you asked:
"One question: Why is the US trying to get Italy to extradite �calan to Turkey ? How would the US like Italy to tell them to extradite exile cubans to Castro ?
Ok, that's two questions..."
American reponse:
"Huh? WHat in the world are you talking about? Who is �calan, and what does he have to do with Italy, let alone Turkey?"
[Above questions meant in an inquisitive manner].
Shining1 posted 11-27-98 10:44 PM ET
[Not Roland, but still interested...]
I thought he was a Kurdish freedom fighter/ terrorist type, whom the Turks are having a nightmare of a time with. He went to Italy, got caught, and the Turks are trying to extradite him to face treason/war crimes type charges.
Italy doesn't want to do this, because Turkey has the death penalty (which �calan would no doubt face), and the Italians aren't too keen on sending the guy back home to certain death.
Where america enters this only Roland can say. Waiting...
DJ RRebel posted 11-28-98 10:33 AM ET
Where is Rollie ??? LOL
DJ RRebel posted 11-29-98 11:54 AM ET
What ??? 2 Days with no Roland ??? What's going on here ???
Roland posted 11-29-98 02:22 PM ET
Hello there!!!
Well, usually I'm not around on the weekend, just maybe sunday if I do some extrawork - like now. Well, combine the work with a nice little visit to the "Gluehkindlmarkt".
Ok, shining1 has answered who �calan is. Now the americans have asked italy to extradite him to Turkey.
1. They have no business in that matter.
2. They should stop helping turkey in its oppression of the kurds (they do that for influence i the area)
3. �calan may be a terrorist, but one man's terrorist is the other man's freedomfighter. The turkish military and the PKK are both terroristic organisations. So that's pretty much a draw... I'm not sure what the europeans shall do now with �calan, maybe I'll think about it (as if anyone cares...)

PS: on a lighter note, 1 zillion energy credits to the one who can tell us what "Gluehkindlmarkt" is!
MikeH II posted 11-30-98 08:30 AM ET
Knowing you Roland I'd guess it had something to do with beers but I havent got a clue except it's probably some kind of shop.
Roland posted 11-30-98 08:35 AM ET
Quite close, Mike...
Arnelos posted 11-30-98 08:40 AM ET
Glow-child-market. . .?
I'm thinking, given the alcoholic persuasion and the glueh (how do you do umlaut's?), that you may mean a strip bar (although that would be a real sick name).
However, it's definately a market or shop of some kind, I just don't know what Gluehkindl (does the ue stand for u with an umlaut or no?) means.
Roland posted 11-30-98 08:53 AM ET
Yeah, glow-child-market. But no strip bar, it's completely harmless, a Salzburg inside joke, if you want.
Explanation (this could be complicated):
1. Christkindl = Jesus Christ, the child, our version of Santa Claus
2. Christkindlmarkt = an open air christmas market on the squares around the cathedral, very beuatiful, often very cold.
3. Gl�hwein = "glowing wine", hot wine with spices and sugar, excellent against the cold
4. As most people go to the "Christkindlmarkt" to drink "Gl�hwein", us locals usually call it "Gl�hkindlmarkt" (to confuse tourists)
So it's no strip bar and no atrocity...

MikeH II posted 11-30-98 09:21 AM ET
� = Alt+1 5 4
� = Alt+1 2 9
on my English keyboard setup that is. I think it's the same on US as well. Don't know about european versions.
The other umlauted letters are between 129 and 154.
Glad I was close, in fact I think I was spot on except for the Christmas connection.
OmniDude posted 11-30-98 11:07 AM ET
The �calan-business is complicated even further by the fact that Germany have put a warrant through Interpol after him (as far as I know) for terrorist actions performed in Germany. The italians would love to get out of their present situation - intense hate campaigns are being conducted in Turkey against Italy due to their incooperative attitude (flagburning, huge bonfires of various italian products etc.). So they are more than willing to give �calan to the germans....only now the germans don't want him, because they are afraid that prosecution of �calan will lead to civil unrest among the quite large number of kurds living in Germany.
Now, I'm not a racist or xenofob or anything, but I DO find it very problematic when kurdish refugees continue their (violent) political struggle after seeking refuge in another country. If you don't like whats happening with your people, stay and fight. By seeking refuge you step out of the (violent) conflict. Political work is OK, but making it unsafe for the citizens of the country that offers you refuge is shooting yourself in the foot with a Colt Peacemaker and should in my opinion result in immidiate expelling of the involved.
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 11:12 AM ET
hey ... no fun .. I was going to guess that !!!
Roland posted 11-30-98 11:16 AM ET
I agree with the view that refugees should respect the law of the country where they take refuge, or where they stay as workers etc.
The problem of expelling however is that turkey will prosecute those people and, in 99 % of cases, violate their human rights. Under the principle of non-refoulement (don't send someone to a state where his/her human rights will be violated), this can't be done. That principle is right IMO, cause even terrorist actions do not justify that a civilised country hands over such people to torture etc. Clearly, this country has a big problem at its hands.
On the other hand, Germany has (too) long supported the stupid turkish view that there is no kurdish problem. The logic is like this: kurds ? What is that ? There are only mountain-turks. Everyone is equal - everyone has the right to speak turkish (only). The turkish establishment is, in that regard, so paranoid, chauvinistic and just plain stupid, that germany's (and other countries') support for that makes we throw up.
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 11:30 AM ET
That's why the whole world needs to be assimilated as one country .. that way no-one would be refugees and there wouldn't be any other country to extradite to !!!
CrackGenius posted 11-30-98 12:26 PM ET
I agree with DJ.
The name of this new country would be " " (fill out the empty spaces with your choice) and its glorious leader would be CrackGenius (who else?). Note that the official product of this country will be Crack and only if somebody is a Genius will be allowed to live.
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 12:33 PM ET
Sorry CRACKER ... the name is the 8th Faction for Humanity !!!
Roland posted 11-30-98 12:37 PM ET
CRAC is a very weak devirative of SMAC.
Devirative ?
Irrlevant!
Resistant!
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-30-98 12:45 PM ET
You will all be assimilated by our European leaders imperialist views. You will catch smallpox, & other European diseases. You will trade with us, or suffer. You will not fight wars with us, or face destruction. You will assist us in our fight with the enemy. You will become European. You are a savage. You are a native American.
Typical European view, circa 1600.
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 01:45 PM ET
Typical view of the typical European noble (only .1% of the population)(is that a good guess-t-a-mate ???)
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-30-98 01:59 PM ET
Yeah, that sounds about right Dj. Unfortunately Those .1% controlled about 90% of the worlds pop. at that time. Well, a little less than that, but they still had great power!
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 02:04 PM ET
Yeah ... lol ... I wonder what they would have said if they knew how it would turn out !!!
Shining1 posted 11-30-98 10:19 PM ET
In fact the new country will be known as great New Zealand (hows that for a scary thought).
The logic being that since we already have Kiwis in nearly every possible location on the planet (with the possible exception of Stewart Island, which is part of N.Z but says it doesn't really feel like it) we can begin with the next step of our plan of assimilation.
That is if the Canadians don't do it first.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-30-98 10:54 PM ET
Why does everyone want to assimilate everybody?? Why can't we let people keep their own cultures, or multitude of cultures. Maintain that rich diversity that makes the world cool! It would be boring if we were all Cannucks, or Kiwis, or Americans!
If anything, we should destroy the Human Hive, before they assimilate us into their evil communist state! Life will really be boring there!
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
Tapiolan poika posted 12-01-98 06:54 AM ET
You're so right, Roland.
OmniDude: Since the profiles don't seem to work for me right now, I'm not sure where you're writing from, but have you heard of what happened here in Sweden this summer?
The PKK are kurdish freedom fighters/terrorists. They have a non-military branch (I don't know if a comparison with IRA and Sinn Fein would be fair, but let's make it.)
This non-military(/political) branch organizes summer camps for kurdish children of the diaspora (ostensibly to teach these kids a little sth. about their background, etc. - all very nice...). In the summer of '98, a group of teenaged kurdish children/youths at such a camp in Sweden disappeared. Some of the parents went to the police (most either didn't dare, or felt the kids were doing the right thing...). It turned out that the camp had been part of an indoctrination of the kids to enter the kurdish fight for freedom, and the kids were no longer in Sweden (i.e. had crossed the border without a passport (not so hard) and without the consent of their parents...).
Understandably, there was quite a furor about this. After a while, some of the kids communicated with their parents and media, saying that they'd gone of their own free will, and that the foofaraw was basically a media blitz against the kurdish cause, etc...
Some of them returned home after a good while, but I'm not sure they're all back.
Also, it turned out that this was not an isolated phenomenon, either here in Sweden, or abroad...
Other than the methods used, I can understand the kurds opposing the Turkish regime.
Tapiolan poika posted 12-01-98 06:57 AM ET
OK, OmniDude, now the profiles work again (Man - uh, sorry, Person! - is this forum buggy, or what?), so I know you're probably in Denmark. Thus you may have heard about this summer.
DJ RRebel posted 12-01-98 06:59 AM ET
Are you serious ??? Man that is messed up !!!
How old were these kids anyways ???
Tapiolan poika posted 12-02-98 01:28 PM ET
They were in their teens, according to media, but the youngest participants at the camp weren't taken, so between 15/16 to 19/20 years old (which posed a problem, since you're an adult in Sweden when you turn 18, which meant that some of the kids couldn't just be transported home, if found by the German police, for instance...).
The thing is, that it's not just happened in Sweden. Apparently, this goes on wherever there are kurdish refugees...
Of course, this isn't a solely kurdish phenomenon, but it's the first time the spot has been put on the age of the people going (back) to "liberate" their country. Indoctrination is always worse when the young are exposed to it...
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Author	Topic: Attn: Roland
Borodino	posted 11-27-98 10:38 PM ET In the Iraqi crisis thread you asked: "One question: Why is the US trying to get Italy to extradite �calan to Turkey ? How would the US like Italy to tell them to extradite exile cubans to Castro ? Ok, that's two questions..." American reponse: "Huh? WHat in the world are you talking about? Who is �calan, and what does he have to do with Italy, let alone Turkey?" [Above questions meant in an inquisitive manner].
Shining1	posted 11-27-98 10:44 PM ET [Not Roland, but still interested...] I thought he was a Kurdish freedom fighter/ terrorist type, whom the Turks are having a nightmare of a time with. He went to Italy, got caught, and the Turks are trying to extradite him to face treason/war crimes type charges. Italy doesn't want to do this, because Turkey has the death penalty (which �calan would no doubt face), and the Italians aren't too keen on sending the guy back home to certain death. Where america enters this only Roland can say. Waiting...
DJ RRebel	posted 11-28-98 10:33 AM ET Where is Rollie ??? LOL
DJ RRebel	posted 11-29-98 11:54 AM ET What ??? 2 Days with no Roland ??? What's going on here ???
Roland	posted 11-29-98 02:22 PM ET Hello there!!! Well, usually I'm not around on the weekend, just maybe sunday if I do some extrawork - like now. Well, combine the work with a nice little visit to the "Gluehkindlmarkt". Ok, shining1 has answered who �calan is. Now the americans have asked italy to extradite him to Turkey. 1. They have no business in that matter. 2. They should stop helping turkey in its oppression of the kurds (they do that for influence i the area) 3. �calan may be a terrorist, but one man's terrorist is the other man's freedomfighter. The turkish military and the PKK are both terroristic organisations. So that's pretty much a draw... I'm not sure what the europeans shall do now with �calan, maybe I'll think about it (as if anyone cares...) PS: on a lighter note, 1 zillion energy credits to the one who can tell us what "Gluehkindlmarkt" is!
MikeH II	posted 11-30-98 08:30 AM ET Knowing you Roland I'd guess it had something to do with beers but I havent got a clue except it's probably some kind of shop.
Roland	posted 11-30-98 08:35 AM ET Quite close, Mike...
Arnelos	posted 11-30-98 08:40 AM ET Glow-child-market. . .? I'm thinking, given the alcoholic persuasion and the glueh (how do you do umlaut's?), that you may mean a strip bar (although that would be a real sick name). However, it's definately a market or shop of some kind, I just don't know what Gluehkindl (does the ue stand for u with an umlaut or no?) means.
Roland	posted 11-30-98 08:53 AM ET Yeah, glow-child-market. But no strip bar, it's completely harmless, a Salzburg inside joke, if you want. Explanation (this could be complicated): 1. Christkindl = Jesus Christ, the child, our version of Santa Claus 2. Christkindlmarkt = an open air christmas market on the squares around the cathedral, very beuatiful, often very cold. 3. Gl�hwein = "glowing wine", hot wine with spices and sugar, excellent against the cold 4. As most people go to the "Christkindlmarkt" to drink "Gl�hwein", us locals usually call it "Gl�hkindlmarkt" (to confuse tourists) So it's no strip bar and no atrocity...
MikeH II	posted 11-30-98 09:21 AM ET � = Alt+1 5 4 � = Alt+1 2 9 on my English keyboard setup that is. I think it's the same on US as well. Don't know about european versions. The other umlauted letters are between 129 and 154. Glad I was close, in fact I think I was spot on except for the Christmas connection.
OmniDude	posted 11-30-98 11:07 AM ET The �calan-business is complicated even further by the fact that Germany have put a warrant through Interpol after him (as far as I know) for terrorist actions performed in Germany. The italians would love to get out of their present situation - intense hate campaigns are being conducted in Turkey against Italy due to their incooperative attitude (flagburning, huge bonfires of various italian products etc.). So they are more than willing to give �calan to the germans....only now the germans don't want him, because they are afraid that prosecution of �calan will lead to civil unrest among the quite large number of kurds living in Germany. Now, I'm not a racist or xenofob or anything, but I DO find it very problematic when kurdish refugees continue their (violent) political struggle after seeking refuge in another country. If you don't like whats happening with your people, stay and fight. By seeking refuge you step out of the (violent) conflict. Political work is OK, but making it unsafe for the citizens of the country that offers you refuge is shooting yourself in the foot with a Colt Peacemaker and should in my opinion result in immidiate expelling of the involved.
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 11:12 AM ET hey ... no fun .. I was going to guess that !!!
Roland	posted 11-30-98 11:16 AM ET I agree with the view that refugees should respect the law of the country where they take refuge, or where they stay as workers etc. The problem of expelling however is that turkey will prosecute those people and, in 99 % of cases, violate their human rights. Under the principle of non-refoulement (don't send someone to a state where his/her human rights will be violated), this can't be done. That principle is right IMO, cause even terrorist actions do not justify that a civilised country hands over such people to torture etc. Clearly, this country has a big problem at its hands. On the other hand, Germany has (too) long supported the stupid turkish view that there is no kurdish problem. The logic is like this: kurds ? What is that ? There are only mountain-turks. Everyone is equal - everyone has the right to speak turkish (only). The turkish establishment is, in that regard, so paranoid, chauvinistic and just plain stupid, that germany's (and other countries') support for that makes we throw up.
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 11:30 AM ET That's why the whole world needs to be assimilated as one country .. that way no-one would be refugees and there wouldn't be any other country to extradite to !!!
CrackGenius	posted 11-30-98 12:26 PM ET I agree with DJ. The name of this new country would be " " (fill out the empty spaces with your choice) and its glorious leader would be CrackGenius (who else?). Note that the official product of this country will be Crack and only if somebody is a Genius will be allowed to live.
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 12:33 PM ET Sorry CRACKER ... the name is the 8th Faction for Humanity !!!
Roland	posted 11-30-98 12:37 PM ET CRAC is a very weak devirative of SMAC. Devirative ? Irrlevant! Resistant!
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey	posted 11-30-98 12:45 PM ET You will all be assimilated by our European leaders imperialist views. You will catch smallpox, & other European diseases. You will trade with us, or suffer. You will not fight wars with us, or face destruction. You will assist us in our fight with the enemy. You will become European. You are a savage. You are a native American. Typical European view, circa 1600. Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general, YYYH
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 01:45 PM ET Typical view of the typical European noble (only .1% of the population)(is that a good guess-t-a-mate ???)
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey	posted 11-30-98 01:59 PM ET Yeah, that sounds about right Dj. Unfortunately Those .1% controlled about 90% of the worlds pop. at that time. Well, a little less than that, but they still had great power! Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general, YYYH
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 02:04 PM ET Yeah ... lol ... I wonder what they would have said if they knew how it would turn out !!!
Shining1	posted 11-30-98 10:19 PM ET In fact the new country will be known as great New Zealand (hows that for a scary thought). The logic being that since we already have Kiwis in nearly every possible location on the planet (with the possible exception of Stewart Island, which is part of N.Z but says it doesn't really feel like it) we can begin with the next step of our plan of assimilation. That is if the Canadians don't do it first.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey	posted 11-30-98 10:54 PM ET Why does everyone want to assimilate everybody?? Why can't we let people keep their own cultures, or multitude of cultures. Maintain that rich diversity that makes the world cool! It would be boring if we were all Cannucks, or Kiwis, or Americans! If anything, we should destroy the Human Hive, before they assimilate us into their evil communist state! Life will really be boring there! Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general, YYYH
Tapiolan poika	posted 12-01-98 06:54 AM ET You're so right, Roland. OmniDude: Since the profiles don't seem to work for me right now, I'm not sure where you're writing from, but have you heard of what happened here in Sweden this summer? The PKK are kurdish freedom fighters/terrorists. They have a non-military branch (I don't know if a comparison with IRA and Sinn Fein would be fair, but let's make it.) This non-military(/political) branch organizes summer camps for kurdish children of the diaspora (ostensibly to teach these kids a little sth. about their background, etc. - all very nice...). In the summer of '98, a group of teenaged kurdish children/youths at such a camp in Sweden disappeared. Some of the parents went to the police (most either didn't dare, or felt the kids were doing the right thing...). It turned out that the camp had been part of an indoctrination of the kids to enter the kurdish fight for freedom, and the kids were no longer in Sweden (i.e. had crossed the border without a passport (not so hard) and without the consent of their parents...). Understandably, there was quite a furor about this. After a while, some of the kids communicated with their parents and media, saying that they'd gone of their own free will, and that the foofaraw was basically a media blitz against the kurdish cause, etc... Some of them returned home after a good while, but I'm not sure they're all back. Also, it turned out that this was not an isolated phenomenon, either here in Sweden, or abroad... Other than the methods used, I can understand the kurds opposing the Turkish regime.
Tapiolan poika	posted 12-01-98 06:57 AM ET OK, OmniDude, now the profiles work again (Man - uh, sorry, Person! - is this forum buggy, or what?), so I know you're probably in Denmark. Thus you may have heard about this summer.
DJ RRebel	posted 12-01-98 06:59 AM ET Are you serious ??? Man that is messed up !!! How old were these kids anyways ???
Tapiolan poika	posted 12-02-98 01:28 PM ET They were in their teens, according to media, but the youngest participants at the camp weren't taken, so between 15/16 to 19/20 years old (which posed a problem, since you're an adult in Sweden when you turn 18, which meant that some of the kids couldn't just be transported home, if found by the German police, for instance...). The thing is, that it's not just happened in Sweden. Apparently, this goes on wherever there are kurdish refugees... Of course, this isn't a solely kurdish phenomenon, but it's the first time the spot has been put on the age of the people going (back) to "liberate" their country. Indoctrination is always worse when the young are exposed to it...