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Author Topic:   Spartan "strength"

WCT posted 11-27-98 02:35 PM ET
In the story, the Spartans seem to value strength because "only the strong survive". But how do they measure strength? It looks like they value purely military might as "strength", but since when does the ability to shoot straight and outwrestle a bear impart any clue as to, for instance, how to run a hydroponics facility?
Are the Spartans really saying that they will survive because they can raid their neighbors for food, while their neighbors will not live for the same reason? If so, then what do they plan to do once their neighbors are no longer alive to make food?
If I were a Spartan, I would at least expand my definition of "strength" to include those things that are needed for survival. Coming up with superior tech, running hydroponics and factories at higher production levels than anyone else, and using diplomacy to get the other factions to help me can all enable me to survive. If strength is what determines if I live, then these things are strength just as much as being able to defend myself if and when anyone attacks, or being able to crush anyone who could potentially threaten me.
If they are not even periphally aware of this type of strength, then the Spartans will likely have a *very* short life expectancy (however long their landing pod supplies last, plus however long they can live purely off of raiding the ever-more-sophisticated other factions without doing any research of their own). While that could be an interesting challenge (raid the other colonies or your colonists will starve), somehow I don't think that was quite what SMAC's designers had in mind for a faction. (But I could be wrong.)
DJ RRebel posted 11-27-98 02:38 PM ET
Spartans are so full of irrational thought it really irks me !!!
Mr. Spock's head would explode just to think about them and their illogicalness !!!
Kafka posted 11-27-98 06:32 PM ET
Like the Spartans of Ancient Greece, skill in battle, and strength of will. I believe primarily strength of will is what the Spartans believe in. I had a much nicer, eloquent post about the battle of Thermopolyae but the forum ate it.
Octopus posted 11-27-98 10:00 PM ET
Remember, the premise of the Spartan faction is "survival is important", not "the Spartans will survive". Things which are scarce in a society invariably have a high value associated with them (e.g. precious metals). The Spartans are so inept at everything except combat that a Spartan actually surviving for any length of time would be a very rare thing, and therefore survival is highly valued. See, it makes perfect sense.
WCT posted 11-28-98 02:12 AM ET
Kafka: One can not survive on will alone. Will *helps*, but if they just believed in strength of will, why would the Spartans not join with the rather-blatantly-obviously-also strong willed crew (or, at least, the strong willed command crew...Godwinson possibly excepted)?
Octopus: Yeah, that seems right...but as comically true as it is, wouldn't that knock them out of the game unless they had a way of reproducing much faster than anyone else?
Octopus posted 11-28-98 02:48 AM ET
Well, in terms of play-balance, the Spartans are going to have to press their early advantage. They will presumably have better troops at the early stages, when everybody is on a pretty much even footing in terms of production and science. They will have to use this early military superiority to get themselves into a dominant position. If they wait too long, the better economies and science teams of the other factions are going to pull out ahead and the Spartans won't be able to compete.
Basically, playing as the Spartans will be a gamble, and you will probably have won or lost in a relatively small number of turns. In one of the screenshots at pc.ign.com the only faction to have been eliminated was the Spartans. Coincedence? I think not!
Kafka posted 11-28-98 05:08 PM ET
Read any history of the real Spartans. They weren't just the bravest, most couragous soldiers in the world, but they had virtually the only standing army for a very long time. Immense military might and superb tactics. Unfortunately not much of a navy..
AUH20 posted 11-28-98 08:51 PM ET
Athens had the navy...
Anyway, military and physical strength is probably important to Spartan's, but they probably also have scientists who are valued. Probably not much of an intelligentsia, because they don't really produce anything, although they are important.
BorgBTD posted 11-28-98 11:37 PM ET
To the Spartans (in SMAC) survival is most important, not strength. To them strength is probably only an asset, like building things, and research is an asset. They will most likely be the equivelant to a monarchy and will be the strongest starters and good for small maps.
MikeH II posted 11-30-98 08:09 AM ET
Strength helps you to survive, especially in such a hostile world as Chiron.
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 12:13 PM ET
Anyone here ever hear a really awsome house song a little over a year ago ???
Called "Survive" by Brutal Bill ???
Anyways, it was pretty good and this conversation just made me think of that !!!
Roland posted 11-30-98 12:16 PM ET
Nooooo!
I suggest panthera, "war for territory", amkes me think of SMAC and SMAC makes me think of that song. A vicious circle, with an infinite number of corners...
DJ RRebel posted 11-30-98 12:21 PM ET
Actually, I think an old Def Leapard song called "God of War" would really be more suitable !!!
I'm not much of a DL fan, but hysteria was one of the best albums of all time !!!
Almost up there with INXS:KICK !!!
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Author	Topic: Spartan "strength"
WCT	posted 11-27-98 02:35 PM ET In the story, the Spartans seem to value strength because "only the strong survive". But how do they measure strength? It looks like they value purely military might as "strength", but since when does the ability to shoot straight and outwrestle a bear impart any clue as to, for instance, how to run a hydroponics facility? Are the Spartans really saying that they will survive because they can raid their neighbors for food, while their neighbors will not live for the same reason? If so, then what do they plan to do once their neighbors are no longer alive to make food? If I were a Spartan, I would at least expand my definition of "strength" to include those things that are needed for survival. Coming up with superior tech, running hydroponics and factories at higher production levels than anyone else, and using diplomacy to get the other factions to help me can all enable me to survive. If strength is what determines if I live, then these things are strength just as much as being able to defend myself if and when anyone attacks, or being able to crush anyone who could potentially threaten me. If they are not even periphally aware of this type of strength, then the Spartans will likely have a very short life expectancy (however long their landing pod supplies last, plus however long they can live purely off of raiding the ever-more-sophisticated other factions without doing any research of their own). While that could be an interesting challenge (raid the other colonies or your colonists will starve), somehow I don't think that was quite what SMAC's designers had in mind for a faction. (But I could be wrong.)
DJ RRebel	posted 11-27-98 02:38 PM ET Spartans are so full of irrational thought it really irks me !!! Mr. Spock's head would explode just to think about them and their illogicalness !!!
Kafka	posted 11-27-98 06:32 PM ET Like the Spartans of Ancient Greece, skill in battle, and strength of will. I believe primarily strength of will is what the Spartans believe in. I had a much nicer, eloquent post about the battle of Thermopolyae but the forum ate it.
Octopus	posted 11-27-98 10:00 PM ET Remember, the premise of the Spartan faction is "survival is important", not "the Spartans will survive". Things which are scarce in a society invariably have a high value associated with them (e.g. precious metals). The Spartans are so inept at everything except combat that a Spartan actually surviving for any length of time would be a very rare thing, and therefore survival is highly valued. See, it makes perfect sense.
WCT	posted 11-28-98 02:12 AM ET Kafka: One can not survive on will alone. Will helps, but if they just believed in strength of will, why would the Spartans not join with the rather-blatantly-obviously-also strong willed crew (or, at least, the strong willed command crew...Godwinson possibly excepted)? Octopus: Yeah, that seems right...but as comically true as it is, wouldn't that knock them out of the game unless they had a way of reproducing much faster than anyone else?
Octopus	posted 11-28-98 02:48 AM ET Well, in terms of play-balance, the Spartans are going to have to press their early advantage. They will presumably have better troops at the early stages, when everybody is on a pretty much even footing in terms of production and science. They will have to use this early military superiority to get themselves into a dominant position. If they wait too long, the better economies and science teams of the other factions are going to pull out ahead and the Spartans won't be able to compete. Basically, playing as the Spartans will be a gamble, and you will probably have won or lost in a relatively small number of turns. In one of the screenshots at pc.ign.com the only faction to have been eliminated was the Spartans. Coincedence? I think not!
Kafka	posted 11-28-98 05:08 PM ET Read any history of the real Spartans. They weren't just the bravest, most couragous soldiers in the world, but they had virtually the only standing army for a very long time. Immense military might and superb tactics. Unfortunately not much of a navy..
AUH20	posted 11-28-98 08:51 PM ET Athens had the navy... Anyway, military and physical strength is probably important to Spartan's, but they probably also have scientists who are valued. Probably not much of an intelligentsia, because they don't really produce anything, although they are important.
BorgBTD	posted 11-28-98 11:37 PM ET To the Spartans (in SMAC) survival is most important, not strength. To them strength is probably only an asset, like building things, and research is an asset. They will most likely be the equivelant to a monarchy and will be the strongest starters and good for small maps.
MikeH II	posted 11-30-98 08:09 AM ET Strength helps you to survive, especially in such a hostile world as Chiron.
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 12:13 PM ET Anyone here ever hear a really awsome house song a little over a year ago ??? Called "Survive" by Brutal Bill ??? Anyways, it was pretty good and this conversation just made me think of that !!!
Roland	posted 11-30-98 12:16 PM ET Nooooo! I suggest panthera, "war for territory", amkes me think of SMAC and SMAC makes me think of that song. A vicious circle, with an infinite number of corners...
DJ RRebel	posted 11-30-98 12:21 PM ET Actually, I think an old Def Leapard song called "God of War" would really be more suitable !!! I'm not much of a DL fan, but hysteria was one of the best albums of all time !!! Almost up there with INXS:KICK !!!