The small country complex - the essence of Lithuania

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Author Topic:   The small country complex - the essence of Lithuania

Saras posted 11-20-98 08:50 AM ET
Besides from Sabonis and .. emmmmm... (well, that's it), people know REALLY little about coutries like Lithuania. Especially in Midwest USA (Xcept Chicago, which has over ~100,000 Lithuanians). Well, what do you know?
Jeje posted 11-20-98 09:43 AM ET
Wrelly wanna know
As a Finn, I wait a while and let America give it's best shot first.
A small hint is the Baltic countries (Figure that out)
BoomBoom posted 11-20-98 09:48 AM ET
capital is vilnius
AUH20 posted 11-20-98 04:16 PM ET
Most of the population is Catholic.
jsorense posted 11-20-98 04:22 PM ET
A whole lot of unhappy Russians live there. Unhappy about having to learn Lithuanian among other things.
Aga1 posted 11-20-98 05:23 PM ET
Lithulania = Poland
jonesEv posted 11-20-98 06:28 PM ET
Yep, being lithuanian must suck. I mean, you're *so close* to being latvian, but I guess you can't really ever aspire to that level of greatness.
The best thing about being latvian (this is what the world envies) is the cuisine.
Yes, cuisine: herring, aboulmizit (sp?) and more herring!
Regarding mid-west US:
I just moved to Ohio and found out my boss is Latvian and every sunday night there's a big lithuanian radio show for like four hours. There's more Latvians (and other baltic types) than in SF (where I'm from).
AUH20 posted 11-20-98 06:32 PM ET
The Baltic states are my favorite group of countries.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-20-98 09:51 PM ET
What do I know about Lituania?
Small Baltic State, formerly conquered by nazis, commies, etc. Most of the other stuff I know was already mentioned.
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
Saras posted 11-23-98 05:59 AM ET
jonesEv:
Latvians -- Greatness ... doesn't mix.
In fact, to be really rough and sincere, our smaller sister country is a real bunch of sissies. They never had their own country until 1918, they helped the Bolshevik revolution, they (together with Estonians) formed the ONLY SS legion in the baltics (Lithuanian youth hid in the woods and fought both, Russians and Nazis), Jonas Jablonskis, a Lithuanian, invented a name for them (Latvians), they opress their Russian population because its so big, its so big because there was no guerilla resistance after WW2 (while Lithuanians were fighting a real war for a decade, scaring the sh** out of Russian-settlers-to-be, which no one knows of; the last fighter surrendered in 1972), it has Riga and that's all, the only nice girls in Riga are either tourists or local Russians.
Aga1, read some history. Yes, books. Oh, you can't read ...
The rest - keep up the good work.
Roland posted 11-23-98 07:16 AM ET
Saras, please don't say anything against aga1... (though this comment wasn't really nice). Octopus may start another "I can only interpret this as an insult"-campaign in here, though he may have more substance in that case...
Octopus, disclaimer: just KIDDING!!!
Saras, it's hard to believe there were no Lithuanians in the SS. Are you sure ?
And about pretty girls in Riga... can't be true. According to a study, Austrians are the uglyest Europeans - male as female... LOL!!!
jonesEv posted 11-23-98 01:15 PM ET
I'm afraid, Saras, that you have been misinformed. I have personally made the aquaintance of a former member of the resistance (or whatever it was called: the 'underground' pro-democracy movement during Soviet occupation) and aside from being afraid of turkeys, he was one of the greatest men I have met.
Nor is he the only example of Latvian greatness: I have heard stories from my relatives of Latvians bravely walking through plate glass windows!
Lithunians, however, are a different story. Historically Lithuania has been known as 'Latvia's Little Step-Sister', and has shown a love of Latvian culture. Although unable to match Latvia culturally, Latvia has long relied on Lithuanian peasants to fill their bellies. Lack of higher educational facilities has not lessened Lithuanians' discomfort with their ignorance; many Lithuanians emigrate to Latvia to receive secondary schooling and attend universities, although few continue on to post gradutate work. In the past decade, however, a disturbing trend has arisen; many Lithuanian expatriates, usually dropped out of university or secondary school, have made their emigration permanent, flooding the workforce with unskilled laborers. Most of these are unemployed: local slang refers to them as 'the hound's chiggers'. Some districts in Riga are facing up to what were previously thought of as Lithuanian problems: poverty, prostitution and alcoholism are visible. However, these problems have declined as Latvia tightens its immigration policy.
Aga1 posted 11-23-98 04:44 PM ET
The City you live in now what country did it belong to in 1919-1938 ?
Poland united with the grand duchy of lithulania.Untill 1795 the partion of poland lithuania was polish land and polish populated.Look at the map of poland from 1400-1795 all of the baltic states were under poland .That is what i meant no offence

Fluke posted 11-23-98 05:19 PM ET
You can't say that somebody is a particular nationality just because the place they live might have been called something else 200 years ago.
It doesn't make sense.
It only thing that really matters is what people call themselves.
Aga1 posted 11-23-98 05:23 PM ET
I didnt mean nationality i was talking about the country
Saras posted 11-24-98 04:45 AM ET
jonesEv - you gotta be kiddin'. Like, emm.. Elvis is alive and Jesus was Martian. But probably your gross ignorance is caused by you being an average semi-illiterate American high school dropout. Or are you looking for a fight? Please move to Politically Incorrect Club for further discussions and meet me there...
Aga1 - the fact that Poland was Germany 1939-1945 does not make Poland Germany. Same with Lithuania. Vilnius was occupied by so called "mutinous" General Zheligowski and annexed to Poland. Following your logic, India is UK. WRONG.
Roland - of course there were Lithuanians in SS. Heck, there were Jews in the SS. But Latvians and Estonians had a Latvian and Estonian formation, while in Lithuania they could not draft enough recruits - they were hiding.
Roland posted 11-24-98 05:14 AM ET
While poland and lithuania were united, you could just say that poland was lithuanian then as well. Just look at a map - both countries were about the same size when they "merged".
Hothram Upravda posted 11-24-98 05:19 AM ET
Saras. After the Polish-Lith Comonwealth was created the vast majority of the Lith population was polivied. Lith was a part of Poland from about the 15th century to the 1930's. If you look at the really old maps y'll see that Lith stretched from the Baltic almost to the Black Sea. Historicly the Lith populations in those areas became assimulated into the polish culture and ethnic group. Which is understandible for the Poles quickly became the dominate power.
I also remember reading in the Economis back in 1990-91 after the call of the USSR qabout talks between Poland, Ukrane, and Lith about geting back together. Nothing of course happened but still would have radicly changed the balance of power n Euro if the old Polish Comenwealth had been recreaded.
Hothram Upravda
TB
Saras posted 11-24-98 05:44 AM ET
Well, however sad it is to admit, Poland was much more civilised at the times of the "merger". Lithuania had been catholic for just some 200 years, and only the nobility - the peasants were pagan until late 17th century. To make a long story short, Poland needed Lithuania's military might, and Lithuania needed to join Europe culturally and to safeguard itself against German invasions (no longer a threat then, but memories hadn't died) by taking away their argument of fighting agaist heathen pagan uncivilised Lithuanians. The Lithuanian nobility wanted to be "cool" and cultured and voluntarily Polonised themselves. The majority of the population, the peasants, were always Lithuanian and kept the spirit alive until national renaissance in late 19th century, when the enlightened nobility joined in.
Hothram Upravda:
Lithuanian population in Ukraine and Belarus was limited to an expatriate governor and his immediate family. That is why Lithuanian rule was deemed as a salvation from the Mongol and Muscovy oppression. The governors converted themselves into Russian orthodox, allowed religious freedom, there was no "federal" income tax except for army upkeep, and the only duty they had to the Lithuanian crown was to send troops in times of need.
And Lithuania was never a "part" of Poland. It was a member of the commonwealth. And not until 1930's, but until Russia, Prussia and Austria f***ed us both in 1795. Poland is probably our best friend coutry now.
Saras posted 11-24-98 08:04 AM ET
jsorense - not true. Our citizenship laws are the most liberal among the Baltics, and i've never heard of a Russian complaining of having to learn Lithuanian. More of opposite complaints - since virtually all Lithuanians speak fluent Russian, Russians just don't bother learning. And it's ok, I mean, what's the big deal? They still can communicate.
Saras posted 12-02-98 10:58 AM ET
Is that it?
BoomBoom posted 12-02-98 11:10 AM ET
Like anyone really cares anyway, I don't believe in countries.
Heckler posted 12-02-98 11:28 AM ET
Well after being here for 10 months I must say that Lithuania is a great place to visit but I don't want to live here any longer.
The main problem is that currently the technology level is just high enough that it is annoying when things don't work right. For example I have lost power to my residence 5 times while living here and this is concidered a low number. Second example the internet providers here charge by the hour the one that does not charges 50$ US for one month service, and the service level is equivilent to that of AOL right after the 20$ a month plan came out busy signals galore and the connection drops 4 to 10 times in one work day. As far as goods (computer games, food, clothes...) most things are availiable and fairly cheap by western standards however you get what you pay for (and most annoying almost all the games here are pirated which means endless struggles to get the stupid thing working right.)
However the country is beautifull, the weather though usually overcast is fairly pleasant (note I love the cold.) The people are an odd mix of friendly (little things but they count) and surly, but this can be marked up in part to the fact that they have been overrun and then occupied by one country or another for the last 200 years and the last 50 was under a repressive inhumane soviet government (anyone who doubts me please feel free to come here I live 3 blocks from the main KGB building of Vilnius the atrocities are well documented.)
henriks posted 12-02-98 12:11 PM ET
Hasn't Latvia belonged to Sweden, too? I know Estonia did for a hundred years or so.
We were once a major power in northern Europe. The goal was to make the Baltic sea a national pond. We almost succeeded before the Russians and the Danish kicked us out. During those wars (especially during the 30 year war) we commited our share of atrocities, something we'd rather forget.
Sweden has a strong emotional bond to the Baltic countries. We also want them to be able to join the Eurpoean Union as soon as possible (unless the ruling Social Democratic party has changed their minds again). Swedish companies invest a lot of money there, and it would be more if we did not have to worry about organized crime. (How much of a problem is that for you locals, btw?)
I just wish we had been braver defending the Baltic countries from the Russians during WW2.
Henrik St�hl
Saras posted 12-02-98 12:27 PM ET
Yeah, Henrik, your "major power of northern Europe" took a beating at Salaspils (Kircholm) from 5,000 Lithuanians (Swedes numbered over 40,000)
Lithuania never belonged to Sweden, but there were plans of a "Commonwealth", like with Poland. I wonder how would that have changed things? What about Sweden's neutrality during 1st half of xxth century, when everyone was marching across Lith. at their will?
Heckler: what ISP are you using? I use Takas and Omnitel, and both are ok.
Saras posted 12-02-98 12:30 PM ET
Hey, Swedes are supposed to know about Lithuania - we're neighbors. How 'bout people farther away?
Grosshaus posted 12-02-98 02:23 PM ET
Don't you have an "American" president, Adamkus or something? Either you or the Latvians.
But when Poland and Sweden were united for just a few years, wasn't Lithuania part of the union? Not quite sure, but I have a faint memory from the 6th grade history lessons.
Saras posted 12-02-98 03:05 PM ET
The guy we have as a president, Adamkus (you are right!), is a Lithuanian, and he just happened to live in the US for the most part of his adult life. He was one of the leaders of the liberation movement in exile and was actively promoting our cause in the world.
Poland and Sweden united? Can't remember. When was that? I think most of the times the Commonwealth was at war with Sweden... They wanted the Baltic to be their backyard swimming pool, and we did not like that
Grosshaus posted 12-02-98 03:29 PM ET
That was in 16 something. At the same time there was a "Club rebellion" in Finland and Polish troops were sent to extinquish it (Finland was part of Sweden back then). It had something to do with a royal marriage, I think the king's name was Sigismund or something.
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Author	Topic: The small country complex - the essence of Lithuania
Saras	posted 11-20-98 08:50 AM ET Besides from Sabonis and .. emmmmm... (well, that's it), people know REALLY little about coutries like Lithuania. Especially in Midwest USA (Xcept Chicago, which has over ~100,000 Lithuanians). Well, what do you know?
Jeje	posted 11-20-98 09:43 AM ET Wrelly wanna know As a Finn, I wait a while and let America give it's best shot first. A small hint is the Baltic countries (Figure that out)
BoomBoom	posted 11-20-98 09:48 AM ET capital is vilnius
AUH20	posted 11-20-98 04:16 PM ET Most of the population is Catholic.
jsorense	posted 11-20-98 04:22 PM ET A whole lot of unhappy Russians live there. Unhappy about having to learn Lithuanian among other things.
Aga1	posted 11-20-98 05:23 PM ET Lithulania = Poland
jonesEv	posted 11-20-98 06:28 PM ET Yep, being lithuanian must suck. I mean, you're so close to being latvian, but I guess you can't really ever aspire to that level of greatness. The best thing about being latvian (this is what the world envies) is the cuisine. Yes, cuisine: herring, aboulmizit (sp?) and more herring! Regarding mid-west US: I just moved to Ohio and found out my boss is Latvian and every sunday night there's a big lithuanian radio show for like four hours. There's more Latvians (and other baltic types) than in SF (where I'm from).
AUH20	posted 11-20-98 06:32 PM ET The Baltic states are my favorite group of countries.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey	posted 11-20-98 09:51 PM ET What do I know about Lituania? Small Baltic State, formerly conquered by nazis, commies, etc. Most of the other stuff I know was already mentioned. Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general, YYYH
Saras	posted 11-23-98 05:59 AM ET jonesEv: Latvians -- Greatness ... doesn't mix. In fact, to be really rough and sincere, our smaller sister country is a real bunch of sissies. They never had their own country until 1918, they helped the Bolshevik revolution, they (together with Estonians) formed the ONLY SS legion in the baltics (Lithuanian youth hid in the woods and fought both, Russians and Nazis), Jonas Jablonskis, a Lithuanian, invented a name for them (Latvians), they opress their Russian population because its so big, its so big because there was no guerilla resistance after WW2 (while Lithuanians were fighting a real war for a decade, scaring the sh** out of Russian-settlers-to-be, which no one knows of; the last fighter surrendered in 1972), it has Riga and that's all, the only nice girls in Riga are either tourists or local Russians. Aga1, read some history. Yes, books. Oh, you can't read ... The rest - keep up the good work.
Roland	posted 11-23-98 07:16 AM ET Saras, please don't say anything against aga1... (though this comment wasn't really nice). Octopus may start another "I can only interpret this as an insult"-campaign in here, though he may have more substance in that case... Octopus, disclaimer: just KIDDING!!! Saras, it's hard to believe there were no Lithuanians in the SS. Are you sure ? And about pretty girls in Riga... can't be true. According to a study, Austrians are the uglyest Europeans - male as female... LOL!!!
jonesEv	posted 11-23-98 01:15 PM ET I'm afraid, Saras, that you have been misinformed. I have personally made the aquaintance of a former member of the resistance (or whatever it was called: the 'underground' pro-democracy movement during Soviet occupation) and aside from being afraid of turkeys, he was one of the greatest men I have met. Nor is he the only example of Latvian greatness: I have heard stories from my relatives of Latvians bravely walking through plate glass windows! Lithunians, however, are a different story. Historically Lithuania has been known as 'Latvia's Little Step-Sister', and has shown a love of Latvian culture. Although unable to match Latvia culturally, Latvia has long relied on Lithuanian peasants to fill their bellies. Lack of higher educational facilities has not lessened Lithuanians' discomfort with their ignorance; many Lithuanians emigrate to Latvia to receive secondary schooling and attend universities, although few continue on to post gradutate work. In the past decade, however, a disturbing trend has arisen; many Lithuanian expatriates, usually dropped out of university or secondary school, have made their emigration permanent, flooding the workforce with unskilled laborers. Most of these are unemployed: local slang refers to them as 'the hound's chiggers'. Some districts in Riga are facing up to what were previously thought of as Lithuanian problems: poverty, prostitution and alcoholism are visible. However, these problems have declined as Latvia tightens its immigration policy.
Aga1	posted 11-23-98 04:44 PM ET The City you live in now what country did it belong to in 1919-1938 ? Poland united with the grand duchy of lithulania.Untill 1795 the partion of poland lithuania was polish land and polish populated.Look at the map of poland from 1400-1795 all of the baltic states were under poland .That is what i meant no offence
Fluke	posted 11-23-98 05:19 PM ET You can't say that somebody is a particular nationality just because the place they live might have been called something else 200 years ago. It doesn't make sense. It only thing that really matters is what people call themselves.
Aga1	posted 11-23-98 05:23 PM ET I didnt mean nationality i was talking about the country
Saras	posted 11-24-98 04:45 AM ET jonesEv - you gotta be kiddin'. Like, emm.. Elvis is alive and Jesus was Martian. But probably your gross ignorance is caused by you being an average semi-illiterate American high school dropout. Or are you looking for a fight? Please move to Politically Incorrect Club for further discussions and meet me there... Aga1 - the fact that Poland was Germany 1939-1945 does not make Poland Germany. Same with Lithuania. Vilnius was occupied by so called "mutinous" General Zheligowski and annexed to Poland. Following your logic, India is UK. WRONG. Roland - of course there were Lithuanians in SS. Heck, there were Jews in the SS. But Latvians and Estonians had a Latvian and Estonian formation, while in Lithuania they could not draft enough recruits - they were hiding.
Roland	posted 11-24-98 05:14 AM ET While poland and lithuania were united, you could just say that poland was lithuanian then as well. Just look at a map - both countries were about the same size when they "merged".
Hothram Upravda	posted 11-24-98 05:19 AM ET Saras. After the Polish-Lith Comonwealth was created the vast majority of the Lith population was polivied. Lith was a part of Poland from about the 15th century to the 1930's. If you look at the really old maps y'll see that Lith stretched from the Baltic almost to the Black Sea. Historicly the Lith populations in those areas became assimulated into the polish culture and ethnic group. Which is understandible for the Poles quickly became the dominate power. I also remember reading in the Economis back in 1990-91 after the call of the USSR qabout talks between Poland, Ukrane, and Lith about geting back together. Nothing of course happened but still would have radicly changed the balance of power n Euro if the old Polish Comenwealth had been recreaded. Hothram Upravda TB
Saras	posted 11-24-98 05:44 AM ET Well, however sad it is to admit, Poland was much more civilised at the times of the "merger". Lithuania had been catholic for just some 200 years, and only the nobility - the peasants were pagan until late 17th century. To make a long story short, Poland needed Lithuania's military might, and Lithuania needed to join Europe culturally and to safeguard itself against German invasions (no longer a threat then, but memories hadn't died) by taking away their argument of fighting agaist heathen pagan uncivilised Lithuanians. The Lithuanian nobility wanted to be "cool" and cultured and voluntarily Polonised themselves. The majority of the population, the peasants, were always Lithuanian and kept the spirit alive until national renaissance in late 19th century, when the enlightened nobility joined in. Hothram Upravda: Lithuanian population in Ukraine and Belarus was limited to an expatriate governor and his immediate family. That is why Lithuanian rule was deemed as a salvation from the Mongol and Muscovy oppression. The governors converted themselves into Russian orthodox, allowed religious freedom, there was no "federal" income tax except for army upkeep, and the only duty they had to the Lithuanian crown was to send troops in times of need. And Lithuania was never a "part" of Poland. It was a member of the commonwealth. And not until 1930's, but until Russia, Prussia and Austria f***ed us both in 1795. Poland is probably our best friend coutry now.
Saras	posted 11-24-98 08:04 AM ET jsorense - not true. Our citizenship laws are the most liberal among the Baltics, and i've never heard of a Russian complaining of having to learn Lithuanian. More of opposite complaints - since virtually all Lithuanians speak fluent Russian, Russians just don't bother learning. And it's ok, I mean, what's the big deal? They still can communicate.
Saras	posted 12-02-98 10:58 AM ET Is that it?
BoomBoom	posted 12-02-98 11:10 AM ET Like anyone really cares anyway, I don't believe in countries.
Heckler	posted 12-02-98 11:28 AM ET Well after being here for 10 months I must say that Lithuania is a great place to visit but I don't want to live here any longer. The main problem is that currently the technology level is just high enough that it is annoying when things don't work right. For example I have lost power to my residence 5 times while living here and this is concidered a low number. Second example the internet providers here charge by the hour the one that does not charges 50$ US for one month service, and the service level is equivilent to that of AOL right after the 20$ a month plan came out busy signals galore and the connection drops 4 to 10 times in one work day. As far as goods (computer games, food, clothes...) most things are availiable and fairly cheap by western standards however you get what you pay for (and most annoying almost all the games here are pirated which means endless struggles to get the stupid thing working right.) However the country is beautifull, the weather though usually overcast is fairly pleasant (note I love the cold.) The people are an odd mix of friendly (little things but they count) and surly, but this can be marked up in part to the fact that they have been overrun and then occupied by one country or another for the last 200 years and the last 50 was under a repressive inhumane soviet government (anyone who doubts me please feel free to come here I live 3 blocks from the main KGB building of Vilnius the atrocities are well documented.)
henriks	posted 12-02-98 12:11 PM ET Hasn't Latvia belonged to Sweden, too? I know Estonia did for a hundred years or so. We were once a major power in northern Europe. The goal was to make the Baltic sea a national pond. We almost succeeded before the Russians and the Danish kicked us out. During those wars (especially during the 30 year war) we commited our share of atrocities, something we'd rather forget. Sweden has a strong emotional bond to the Baltic countries. We also want them to be able to join the Eurpoean Union as soon as possible (unless the ruling Social Democratic party has changed their minds again). Swedish companies invest a lot of money there, and it would be more if we did not have to worry about organized crime. (How much of a problem is that for you locals, btw?) I just wish we had been braver defending the Baltic countries from the Russians during WW2. Henrik St�hl
Saras	posted 12-02-98 12:27 PM ET Yeah, Henrik, your "major power of northern Europe" took a beating at Salaspils (Kircholm) from 5,000 Lithuanians (Swedes numbered over 40,000) Lithuania never belonged to Sweden, but there were plans of a "Commonwealth", like with Poland. I wonder how would that have changed things? What about Sweden's neutrality during 1st half of xxth century, when everyone was marching across Lith. at their will? Heckler: what ISP are you using? I use Takas and Omnitel, and both are ok.
Saras	posted 12-02-98 12:30 PM ET Hey, Swedes are supposed to know about Lithuania - we're neighbors. How 'bout people farther away?
Grosshaus	posted 12-02-98 02:23 PM ET Don't you have an "American" president, Adamkus or something? Either you or the Latvians. But when Poland and Sweden were united for just a few years, wasn't Lithuania part of the union? Not quite sure, but I have a faint memory from the 6th grade history lessons.
Saras	posted 12-02-98 03:05 PM ET The guy we have as a president, Adamkus (you are right!), is a Lithuanian, and he just happened to live in the US for the most part of his adult life. He was one of the leaders of the liberation movement in exile and was actively promoting our cause in the world. Poland and Sweden united? Can't remember. When was that? I think most of the times the Commonwealth was at war with Sweden... They wanted the Baltic to be their backyard swimming pool, and we did not like that
Grosshaus	posted 12-02-98 03:29 PM ET That was in 16 something. At the same time there was a "Club rebellion" in Finland and Polish troops were sent to extinquish it (Finland was part of Sweden back then). It had something to do with a royal marriage, I think the king's name was Sigismund or something.