Flag-Burning Amendment Advocacy Group (US)

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Author Topic:   Flag-Burning Amendment Advocacy Group (US)

Imran Siddiqui posted 11-19-98 06:03 PM ET
Here, here. I, Imran Siddiqui, and YYYH declare that the flag of the United States should not be burned. The flag is a sacred object an not just a piece of cloth. Also every American pledges to the flag of the United States. Burning the flag is breaking this oath. We stand in defense for a Flag- burning amendment.
Imran Siddiqui
Patriot
Grosshaus posted 11-19-98 06:08 PM ET
I agree, burning the flag of my country would upset me a lot.
AUH20 posted 11-19-98 06:12 PM ET
If we burn flag burning, we take away the principles of free speech the flag stands for and thus compromise it itself. America is more than a cloth.
Imran Siddiqui posted 11-19-98 06:19 PM ET
Flag burning admentments are not anti-free speech. You are commiting arson against the United States, the flag is US property. Also, you pledge to the flag, by burning it you break that pledge.
Imran Siddiqui
Patriot
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-19-98 06:21 PM ET
I'm for it. Countless men have died for this country, & democracy, under that flag. We shouldn't desecrate their memory by burning the symbol that they fought for. They may have been fighting for democracy, but the flag is a symbol to remember their memory, & to represent the country they fought & died for. It is wrong to desecrate these mens memories by this act.
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
Steel_Dragon posted 11-19-98 06:38 PM ET
The Flag is a symbol of this country and if the Supreme Court says it is free speach to burn it then even burning it is a symbol of our coutry.
"I may hate what you say but will defend your right to say it" said by someone wiser than me. And the true meaning of the 1st amenment. That is the only important thing.
Steel_Dragon posted 11-19-98 06:46 PM ET
By the way I as a private citizen, I reserve the right to punch(and then go to jail) anyone burning our flag!
SnowFire posted 11-19-98 06:50 PM ET
What, its illegal to dislike this country? It would be truly terrible for the democracy our veterans fought for for it to be destroyed at home by the over zealousness of some. The whole point of this country is that dissident minority opinions are tolerated. After all, weren't we burning British flags in the revolution? Was that not a form of speech, "Britain is bad!"? As for "the flag is US property," no it's not. As long as you aren't burning someone else's flag, you're burning a piece of cloth that you happen to own. There is no crime in that.
For the legalists, proof that the thought "America is bad!" is being banned and not the specific action, burning old flags ceremonially (how flags are supposed to be retired) will still be legal. So the only question legally at stake is whether the person burned the flag as a protest- meaning that if it is true, the person is guilty. Guilty of bad thoughts! 1984, here we come...
Lastly, there is no epedimic of flag burning. It's a fairly rare act. You would compromise our political freedoms strickly because of a few wackos?
Venom posted 11-19-98 07:40 PM ET
Anyone who burns the flag is just a plain idiot. These are the same people who bitch and moan about everything that is wrong in the world. Out of just plain respect for the freedoms that this country gives you, one should not burn the flag. Free speech is there for you to *voice* your concerns over problems, not burn the flag of the country that allows you to speak.
Larry Boy posted 11-19-98 07:56 PM ET
Burn my country's flag and you can bet I'll be a after 'ya! Free speech is not shooting a politician you don't like, and its not burning our flag. God Bless America!
AUH20 posted 11-19-98 08:10 PM ET
The interesting thing is, this discussion is one of the only two that Ken Starr lost arguing before the Supreme Court.
Steel_Dragon posted 11-19-98 08:14 PM ET
What was the other?
DCA posted 11-19-98 08:34 PM ET
Well, personally I don't (of course) find anything offensive about burning flags, and the prospect of provoking people almost makes me want to try...
I would agree, though, that there are more intelligent ways to make your point.
If anyone wants to burn the Norwegian, EU, UN, whatever, flag - go ahead, see if I care.
DCA,
Don't let it get you down, it's only symbols burning
Spoe posted 11-19-98 08:39 PM ET
There is also a significant difference between shooting a politician(murder/attempted murder, assault w/ a deadly weapon, etc.) and burning a piece of cloth. The first is illegal to do to a nonpolitician, the second is only objectionable because it is a symbol. Perhaps a better analogy would be to the laws forbidding the destruction of currency. Again, there is a difference. With money, destruction reduces the money supply, driving up prices. Burning flags does not. You also can't use the arguements of limiting like you do the cliche of shouting fire in a theatre. Also, free speech includes the speech of the "idiots".
And yes, as long as the Supreme Court says it's constitutional it will take an ammendment to make it illegal. May such an ammendment never pass, as it will be a dark day for American freedom. Banning expression that does no harm(other than hurt feelings) cheapens all who call themselves American.
Spoe posted 11-19-98 09:34 PM ET
I should also point out that Imran's point about the Pledge of Allegiance is moot; I know several people that have never said/taken it, even though they were born US citizens. The pledge breaking point is therefor moot.
SnowFire posted 11-19-98 09:48 PM ET
While I agree with Spoe's point that burning a flag hurts only Imran and others feelings and not anything else that would be againt the intrest of the country, I will add that burning money will drive down prices. Still doesn't reduce the validity of his argument though. Sorry ;-).
P.S. If I burned an effigy of an elephant would you be offended? Probably. Should I go to jail? No. It's the same thing.
Spoe posted 11-19-98 10:30 PM ET
Yep. Got it turned around in my head.
AUH20 posted 11-19-98 10:35 PM ET
When Starr argues attourney-client privelege didn't expand to the dead.
DHE_X2 posted 11-19-98 10:36 PM ET
think about it. How much money would it cost to enforce the act? How much effort would be expended to save a piece of cloth. I am a patriot, and would never burn the flag, but if someone is pissed off enough at the government to do so, go ahead. Anyway, dishonoring veterans and other patriots is not an offense, though one who does such an thing probably has something wrong with him...
Octopus posted 11-19-98 11:15 PM ET
SnowFire is absolutely right with his argument. You want to ban expression, not the burning of flags themselves (I assume you have no problem with accidental flag burnings). That you are so offended by this action is ample evidence that it is a very powerful form of expression. Freedom of expression is one of the most basic freedoms that Americans have. Throwing it away so that you won't be offended is a terrible idea, and goes against everything that our constitution stands for.
Imran Siddiqui posted 11-20-98 12:08 AM ET
Hey, I can't express my position by burning crosses on lawns or making swastikas (not that I ever would). Those are hate crimes against a group of people. Isn't burning the flag the same thing, a hate crime against Americans.
Imran Siddiqui
Patriot
Steel_Dragon posted 11-20-98 12:16 AM ET
On your own propety you could, if you wanted to be murdered.
DCA posted 11-20-98 01:37 AM ET
Hm, I'm tempted to start a little flag-burning community. You know, get together a few people every afternoon, have a few beers, burn a coupla flags, that kind of friendly neigborhood anarchist thing.
DCA,
The most useful tool for dealing with nationalist types is, of course, an automatic weapon.
John posted 11-20-98 04:55 AM ET
I think flagburning is stupid!
Roland posted 11-20-98 07:12 AM ET
I can't see the point in outlawing flag burning. I wouldn't want to forbid anyone burning the flag of my country, I'd just think it's stupid to do so.
The analogy with the swastika doesn't hold up. Here, nazi symbols are outlawed, ok. But there is a difference: When you burn a flag, you are showing that you disagree with that country, its politics, or its leaders. By showing nazi symbols you endorse a regime that has killed millions of people and its politics of killing millions of people. That's the same as shouting: "kill all jews". There is no such connotation with flag burning. BTW, the US is a lot more liberal on nazi symbols than we are. Wouldn't it be strange if you could show nazi symbols, but not burn the US flag ?
SnowFire posted 11-20-98 05:08 PM ET
Again, while burning crosses and making swastikas may be abhorrent, it is not illegal (unless you draw swastikas on a school wall or other property not your own), at least not yet. So if you want to go burn those crosses feel free to do so, the government can't touch you (and if you have an old-school sherrif who doesn't grasp the concept of civil liberties and arrests you anyway, you would surely win on appeal.). Of course, you'd be hated by your community (as Steel alluded to), but it's legal as expression. It's the same with flags.
Infinifty posted 11-20-98 08:08 PM ET
The attempt to stop flag burning is just another try by the government to try to control our lives further. I mean, I know it's not patriotic, but let me think here....First Amendment come to mind? It does piss me off, but who really cares? When you get down to the nitty gritty, all a flag really is fabric. Pretty soon the government will have us at their will.
-Infinifty
Infinitely nifty
FREE SPEECH AND EXPRESSION!
jsorense posted 11-20-98 08:26 PM ET
Infinity:
The initiative for a constitutional amendment to ban the deliberate destruction of the US flag comes from social conservative organizations, not the US government. While some social conservatives may currently be in the government (legislative branch) there is no broad governmental conspiracy to enact it. This does not mean that these organizations will not eventually marshal the influence necessary to get it passed in Congress as well as the required number of state legislatures.
AUH20 posted 11-20-98 08:36 PM ET
A vast, right-wing conspiracy, jsorense?
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-20-98 09:18 PM ET
I think they should ban it because it is unconstisutional right now. Have you ever read the part about the right of the people to peacefully assemble to protest a governments actions. I don't think flag burning is peaceful at all, & it is unconstitutional already.
What about the people who hate the country so much, they just feel the urge to go out & burn it's national symbol. If those people hate us so much, why do they stay here & burn our flags. You hate this free country, go to China or something, burn your flags there. I promise you jerks a good kick in the ass for disrespecting my country like that. I'd like to put them into a war for one second so they know what the men who died for their country, & flag, had to go through. I doubt they'd burn a flag after that. They're lucky they have the right to do that now at all, even though they shouldn't, they would be arrested on spot if they did that in Iraq!!
I will not tolerate those idiots ever, I feel no one has to.
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
jsorense posted 11-20-98 09:38 PM ET
AUH2O:
I am a little surprised at your reaction to my comment to Infinity.
I said that there was no government conspiracy.
I said that passing this amendment was part of the agenda of social conservative organizations.
I indicated that these organizations were using normal political avenues to advance their cause.
Is there anything in these statements which you do not agree?
Spoe posted 11-20-98 09:45 PM ET
So you want the US to be like Iraq then, YYYH? So long as you do it on your property(or other place where fires are permitted), with your own flag, etc., I can see no reason why it should be illegal. Frowned upon, yes, but not illegal. OTOH, if you try to burn it on the steps of the Supreme Court, you would be subject to any laws made about setting fires there. You have to remember, YYYH, that the freedoms gauranteed by the Constitution of the United States are not just for those that like this country, but for all men and women within our borders(for the most part regardless of their citizenship). If you ban flag burning, you might as well tear up our constitution and move to a totalitarian country, for you would have dealt a blow to one of the main purposes(criticising the government) of the 1st Amendment and become no better than the dictator ruthlessly supressing dissent.
Spoe posted 11-20-98 09:47 PM ET
Uh, AUH20 was making a reference to the "vast, right-wing conspiracy" out to get Clinton(that's how I read it). He said nothing about a government conspiracy.
Soybean posted 11-20-98 10:34 PM ET
Logically, I believe that flag-burning should not be illegal. However, I feel so strongly against those who burn flags that in this case I have a tendency to set logic aside. This country literally saved my parents' lives (in Vietnam), and I wouldn't be alive if it weren't for the United States. Our standard of living is incredible and our freedoms vast (and I haven't quite decided if flag-burning should be one of those freedoms). Sure, there are problems, but I have a personal love for the country that allows my family to exist, and I cannot tolerate any defilement of the symbol of what I believe is the best country on earth.
Yo_Yo_Yo_Hey posted 11-20-98 11:01 PM ET
I don't understand how you think this ammendment would bring us closer to a despotism. We'd still be able to speak freely about the government, just without burning flags as a stupid statement of it. Flag burning doesn't get your point across to anyone. Congress may just laugh at you for trying to prove your point by burning the national symbol. Do you think anyone in the government respects people who stand in front of them & burns flags, NO! It's just pointless anyway, so why the hell not ban it.
Disrespectful, it moves nobody to change their POV, it makes you look like a jerk! It's just stupid, & banning it would just save our national symbol from being burned by the far extremists. I will fight to save the memory of all the men who died for that flag. Don't tell me they died for this country, not the cloth, they died upholding the ability of that piece of cloth to ensure freedom to all the people that enjoy it so today. This does not limit free speech, you can still voice your opinions, & protest, I've said it once, I'll say it again!
Your faithful & hell-bent NIMadier general,
YYYH
Spoe posted 11-20-98 11:22 PM ET
YYYH:
I agree, flag burning is not a constructive way to voice your opinions; it is more likely to gathher ridicule for your cause. However, the fact is that is does no harm whatsoever to others except for offended feelings. I've read the US Constitution several time, and nowhere can I find a person's feelings protected. It seems ludicrous that a man that has endured the horror of war cannot endure the discomfort of seeing a flag burn.
The thing that must be understood about the freedoms gauranteed by the constitution is that they work both ways. To be able to take advantage of the positive benefits of criticising the government you must also accept the free speech rights of the KKK, Aryan Nation, and yes, even the flag-burners. All any of these groups do is make fools of themselves, but these groups are the price we must pay for having a free society. Once you take the step to limit the free speech of any of these groups, it is not that big a step to render render rational, constructive criticism of the government unconstitutional as well. You would do well to remember that freedom of speech is also freedom of foolish speech.
Octopus posted 11-20-98 11:48 PM ET
YYYH: Just because you think that burning the flag is stupid (and it does make more enemies than friends) does not mean it should be banned. Do you want to set yourself up as the one who rules on which forms of political expression are okay, and which aren't? That is exactly the sort of thing that the US wanted to keep out, which is why we guaranteed certain freedoms in our constitution.
Spoe is right. The price of having freedoms is that others will be able exercise them, too.
DHE_X2 posted 11-20-98 11:58 PM ET
odd how we get stuck on the little things.
Ultra SupremePaco posted 11-21-98 03:58 AM ET
Imran, YYYH, count me in on your Anti-anti-US policy. If you haven't noticed, I am a faithful patriot, natiolist and value the US more than any other country. I bleed stars and stripes, my fellow Americans!!!
~Paco
SnowFire posted 11-21-98 05:57 PM ET
Was that sarcastic USP? Because that cheapens the real patriots if it was.
Calculus posted 11-21-98 06:10 PM ET
Not only should burning the American Flag be outlawed, but so should the burning of any flag of the World.
NotLikeTea posted 11-21-98 06:31 PM ET
From the Simpsons:
Boy: [spoken] Hey, who left all this garbage lying on the steps of Congress?
Amendment: [spoken] I'm not garbage.
I'm an amendment to be
Yes, an amendment to be
And I'm hoping that they'll ratify me
There's a lot of flag burners
Who have got too much freedom
I wanna make it legal
For policemen
To beat 'em
'Cause there's limits to our liberties
'Least I hope and pray that there are
'Cause those liberal freaks go too far.
Boy: [spoken] But why can't we just make a law against flag burning?
Amendment: [spoken] Because that law would be unconstitutional. But if we _changed_ the Constitution...

Boy: [spoken] Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws!
Amendment: [spoken] Now you're catching on!
Boy: [spoken] But what if they say you're not good enough to be in the Constitution?
Amendment: Then I'll destroy all opposition to me
And I'll make Ted Kennedy pay
If he fights back
I'll say that he's gay
Big Fat Guy: [running up] Good news, Amendment! They ratified 'ya. You're in the U.S. Constitution!
Amendment: Oh, yeah! Door's open, boys!
[many bills and amendments run in, guns a-shooting and bombs a-flying]

===
Ah.. simpsons.. is ther anything they _don't_ know?
And for the record, I am opposed to banning flag burning.
NotLikeTea posted 11-21-98 06:34 PM ET
Oh yeah.. little story I heard.
An american was living somewhere near the border, and a bit wary of over zealous nationalism and patriotism.
He went to the border, considering moving to canada. On the american side, he saw two border guards salute to the flag, ring it down, fold it up, and march it to a special bok kept in the station.
later, he saw a fello on the canadian side take the canadian flag off the post, drag it by one corner over the gorund to his car, where he balled it pu and threw it in the trunk.
The observer moved to canada the next week.
DCA posted 11-21-98 07:26 PM ET
Hehehe...disrespect is a way of life.
Yo: democracy is not about being allowed to leave a country you dislike, but being allowed to vocalize any complaint you have, reasonable or not.
Roland posted 11-23-98 06:28 AM ET
While flag burning may be an extreme and stupid action, there is another reason not to ban it. I think it was a US supreme court judge who said something like this:
"One of the main advantages of freedom of speech is that it allows us to detect the lunatics early."
SnowFire posted 11-23-98 06:13 PM ET
Another issue the amendmant fails to address. It only bans the burning of the US flag. I can still go out and burn Israeli, Palestinian, Indian, Pakastani, German, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, et al flags. If they're going to deny our constitutional liberties, they mine as well make it a good flag burning law that outlaws burning other country's flags.
I still oppose the amendment.
tOFfGI posted 11-26-98 05:22 AM ET
I say it should be a civil obligation to burn the american flag at least once a year.
OmniDude posted 11-26-98 11:43 AM ET
Very interesting discussion. I admire the U.S. constitution and various governments for standing firm on the freedom of speech issue.
I Denmark - where the stance is somewhat similar - we get criticized a lot by our neighbouring countries for allowing nazis to gather for marches, make publications and generally being open about their "naziness". Denmark is considered a haven for expression of radical POV's. The latest is that nazis will be allowed to to make a revisionist school for their children and get the same subsidiaries as other private school - for instance jewish - initiatives get.
My stance towards this - which is the same towards flag-burning - is hostile tolerance. Steel_Dragon is right on the money when he says: "..as a private citizen, I reserve the right to punch(and then go to jail) anyone burning our flag!".
I Denmark it goes like this: When the nazies attempt to go marching, there's always three times as many radical anti-racist and whathaveyou making absolutely sure that the nazis know that their belief and political stance is unacceptable.
Imran, Yo_Yo and others of similar conviction: Have faith that democracy works. You are not threatened by assholes who burn the flag of your "Vaterland" (sorry, couldn't resist.. ), because theres enough of you guys to make sure that flag-burning as a practice will never become commonplace.
DCA: Though I understand the temptation to tease Imran & co. by burning flags, I think you'll find that not many people will lift a finger to stop them beating the crap out of you. Having the law on your side doesn't necessarily make you right (as most peoples stance on lawyers will tell you. Sorry, Roland)
Spoe posted 11-26-98 02:11 PM ET
Interesting. Sounds similar to how the KKK is treated here in the US. They dress up in their sheets and hood and have a little march(under heavy police escort). They always seem to attract a large number of protesters.
DCA posted 11-26-98 04:20 PM ET
OmniDude: I'm a fast runner
Oh yes, the nazi and anti-racist clashes - in Norway there seems to be one every two weeks. Though I agree nazis absolutely deserve to be beat up, I think this is the wrong way to show your dismay. First of all, it gives the nazis legitimacy - you're basically saying that we need to take these guys seriously. Secondly, in the eyes of the public, the street fighting thing makes the anti-racists look as bad as the nazis.
To me, a much better approach would be redicule. When the nazis are staging a march, fetch some friends, grab some beer, vodka or whatever, find some place to sit along their route (which has to be preplanned, I believe), and laugh yourself silly at the complete morons walking by. There is probably so much police around the nazis won't even try to beat you up.
DCA,
"But we'll never survive!" "Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has."
PawtheUnstuk posted 11-26-98 05:54 PM ET
Steel_Dragon:
"Although I do not agree with a word you are saying, I will defend to the death your right to say it." I think that was the quote you are looking for, Steel Dragon. I'm pretty sure its Voltaire or Montesque, someone from the Enlighnment in France.

PawtheUnstuk posted 11-26-98 06:02 PM ET
Imran: Since when is burning crosses or making swasitkas illegal. Why the hell you would want to is beyond me but its perfectly legal.
YYYH: Flag burning is pretty peaceful, besides of which, the Supreme court has decided it is so therefore it is by law. As for the "go to China" BS, the reason we're here not in China is because we want or freedom... making in unconstional to burn flags is the first step along a short road to the 3rd Reich. You will not tolerate theese idiots? Let's try not to go into senseless insults.
PawtheUnstuk posted 11-26-98 06:07 PM ET
Exactly Omnidude. That sort of thing already happens here, with ProLifers and ProChoicers march on the same day. Some Christain Coalition types have tried to counter the gay rights marches in a similiar way, but there aren't enough Ignoranamuses in the same place that there are gays to get it off.
As for NotLikeTea: Here here. I've been drafted into carting down US flags once or twice at night, with the guy holding t he other end screaming at me the whole time not to drop it. The temptation to stamp all over it is almost overwhelming, not because I dislike the US ( I think I was 12 at the time), but because someone is being so anal about it. Its a bloody flag! If you like America, go parade on the 4th of July, I reserve the right to lie in bed and read the Jungle or Brave New World.
OmniDude posted 11-27-98 05:57 AM ET
DCA: I'm glad you're not offended by my last mail. Reading it again I found it a bit harsh towards you. My point is merely that im a bit worried about people with the right attitudes wanting to rub the noses of their opponents in the (percieved) error of their ways. Stirs up a lot of unnecessary trouble.
On the other hand, perhaps that's a sound mechanism to get conflicts into the open and sorted out before they accumulate into the alienation that civil wars are made of.
Oh well, another subject with no simple answer.
Paw the U.: Ignoranamuses? Wonderful word, but what exactly does it mean?
And speaking of abortion policies: My girlfriend is a midwife trainee, and at the hospital where she's working/studying, they just had one of the ugly stories last week: Two births the same day. One a provoked abortion in the 24th week (normal pregnancy is 40 weeks, normal abortion threshold 12th week, 24th week births have a 50% chance of survival) resulting in a living baby (which subsequently was "terminated", as they say), and an hour later a spontaneous abortion in the 18th week that only lived for 2 hours despite the personnel doing everything possible to save it. The mother got a birth psychosis right on the spot.
Needless to say my girlfriend was severely traumatized the next few days (and the midwife doing the provoked abortion called in sick the next morning and haven't returned yet..).
Damn, being ProChoice has it's price....
tOFfGI posted 11-27-98 06:11 AM ET
Flagburning is a good way of showing your Anti-imperialist feelings, protest against nationalism, and showing your emotions towards the superpowers. Nationalism, as has been discussed previously, is very dangerous.
BTW, In turkey, when they are protesting the release of the Kurdish Leader �calan, they have been seen to burn the following things:
* An italian flag
* A doll symbolising �calan
* An Italian Tie
* An Italian Shoe
* An Italian Scooter (Vespa)
Which of these are acceptable to burn? Are any? What has this thread got to do with anything remotely connected to SMAC anyway?
Roland posted 11-27-98 06:59 AM ET
Burn the PK flag, and I shall pacify you for good !!!
As Turkey shows, flagburning can also be a way of showing your f***ing stupid nationalism.
But I don't want to know to know what would happen to kurds burning the turhish flag there. So it's not about freedom of speech, it's about chauvinism. You advocats of a anti flag burning amandment, do you want to bring the US to the level of Turkey?
(Hmm... PK... PKK... ah what)
OmniDude posted 11-27-98 07:00 AM ET
toffgi: to answer your last Q: The thread has to do with that annoying thing that goes on in the corner of our eyes: NON-SMAC, commonly known as REAL LIFE. As long as the game isn't out, this annoying phenomenon keeps rearing its ugly head once in a while.
CrackGenius posted 11-27-98 07:48 AM ET
I always liked the US mainly because of the constitution. As far as I know the constitution does not penalize intentions or thoughts but only actions that result in physically hurting others or limiting their freedom. I think that the US constitution is still the free-est in the world and the one that comes closer to the ideal of a free society. That's why the constitution does not even ban the possession of guns and certainly does not ban burning a piece of cloth that you own in your own property. It would be strange having a constitution that bans flag burning and permits the posession of guns.
I really hope that the conservatives and nationalists in the US will not succeed in turning the free-est and most admirable constitution of the world to a supreme law that limits the freedoms of the people and penalizes their exercise.
CrackGenius posted 11-27-98 07:54 AM ET
It was the great French philosopher Voltaire who once wrote to somebody: 'I don't agree with even one word of what you say but I'll defend, and with the cost of my life if needed, your right freely to say what you beleive'. I think that this is one of the most important sayings in human intellectual history.
DCA posted 11-27-98 09:20 AM ET
OmniDude: Ignoranamuses? Oh well, give your girl a good hug from me. Too bad, too bad; I wish I could make the world nice and cozy, but it's not and it doesn't give any short cuts (great movie anyway). I just get happy when people understand what I mean..... (which isn't too often)
DCA posted 11-27-98 09:32 AM ET
Omni: being alive has its price. life is cheap, except it's not (sorry, I've just walked through the 'street people' streets of Berkeley, and I'm not happy)
I heard the Brazilian constitution was supposed to be the 'greatest one', though I really wouldn't know...
DCA posted 11-27-98 09:36 AM ET
oops, no taglines
DCA,
I may have my faults, but being wrong isn't one of them.
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