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Author Topic:   A guide to SMAC: Combat

Brother Greg posted 11-13-98 12:12 AM ET
This, brothers and sisters, is to be the repository for all of the knowledge we have compiled about SMAC. Whether it be through magazines, web sites, or the hallowed forums themselves, if it has been stated somewhere, I want to see it here. However, try not to duplicate TOO much of the FAQ or the story. =)
Each "topic" I will prefix with the title: "A guide to SMAC: [topic name]" for easy reference. If you feel the lack of a topic, feel free to start it. Just try and stick to the same naming conventions...
Hopefully this should be a comprehensive guide to all of the "verified" knowledge that we have. A good guide for newbies, and a good reference for the vets amongst us. Please quote all sources. Note that some information may be old, and out of date, esp from the old forums. Feel free to add any verified facts, no matter how old they may be...
Also note that I don't see this as a place to debate the merits of the knowledge. Please start a new thread if that is your wish. Otherwise, people may have to wade through hundreds of lines to discover something. =)
So, to start off the "Combat" topic:
Stacks
------
Units may be assigned to "stacks", and moved as one. So, no more moving each unit individually. (from the FAQ)
Combat will no longer be the "strongest unit in a stack dies, they all die" of CIV and CIV II. Units stacked with the losing defender will suffer collateral damage. No details yet of how much. (from the FAQ)
Ranged Attack
-------------
Some units will be able to attack from distance. No longer will your artillery have to be next to a unit to attack. Damage from such attacks is limited, and against a normal defending unit, only a proportion of damage will be suffered. So, no, you can't sit back and pick off approaching units with impunity. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums)
However, if there is opposing artillery in the defending unit, the two artillery units will duke it out to the death. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums)
Air units
---------
Will not be able to attack ground units units until all flying units in the stack are destroyed. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums)
May scrablme to the defence of units attacked by enemy air if within range. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums)
Production of units
-------------------
A unit's costs will increase considerably if it contains the best of everything. So, two units, one with the best defensive capabilities, and one with the best offensive capabilities, may very well be cheaper than one with the best of everything. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums)
Units are designed with components. A base chassis is chosen, and then offensive, defensive, reactor and special ability components are added to the chassis to produce a unit. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums, and the Gallery - Design your own Units)
Unit designs may be saved. The first unit produced (prototype) will cost 50% more than further units. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums, and the Gallery - Design your own Units)
Units may be assigned a "role" (defensive, scout, naval, etc). One assumes that this is to help the AI if your bases are set to autobuild - see also knowledge thread on cities - autobuild. (from the Gallery - Design your own Units, and deductions by me)
Drakenred posted 12-03-98 03:13 AM ET
Now that we got THAT all cleared up

now im confudes
your saying Air units cant atack ground units untill they are destroyed?
or that Stacked Air units cant atack ground units untill they are destroyed
(doncha hate posters that bring up buried posts)<G>
Brother Greg posted 12-03-98 06:27 PM ET
I am saying that if your opponent has air defences in a stack (or scrambled from nearby), you cannot attack his ground units with your air units until all of his defending air units have been destroyed.
Clear as mud now?
Brother Greg.
SnowFire posted 12-03-98 08:44 PM ET
Now that makes no sense. You could attack tanks protected by SAM batteries and do some substantial damage, if you don't mind getting murdered and having half your planes not return. While it should definitely be more damaging to the attacker, there should be no prohibition against it.
Brother Greg posted 12-03-98 09:00 PM ET
What? We're talking about air units, not SAM batteries. Sorry, should have been more specific.
To put it in CIV II terms: If enemy stack has a fighter and a Rifleman, your bomber cannot attack the Rifleman until it has taken out the fighter.
That makes perfect sense if you think about it.
Brother Greg.
Spoe posted 12-03-98 09:07 PM ET
I think a better model might be that sure, you can attack the ground unit, but and anti air defenses(or artillery in the case of ground forces attacking) would contribute some defensive ability to the unit attacked.
Of course, this is kind of moot at this point -- I seriously doubt they'd be changing this before release. Maybe if we clamoured enough for it it might make it into a later patch.
Keith Bennett posted 12-03-98 10:09 PM ET
You are forgetting that when units fight, some of the damage inflicted will spill over onto other units in the stack. Your plane will first attack their plane, and there will be some collateral damage on other units, such as that riflemen.
What I am unsure about is how stack combat will be implemented. Say you attack a stack of ground, ranged, and air units with another stack of ground, air, and ranged units. The air units will attack each other and ranged units will attack each other - but will it be one unit vs. one unit? Will they beat on each other until dead (as is Civ2)? Is there a priority (first ranged, then air)? Do you choose one unit to attack at a time? Is there an option to break off the attack afer suffering X% of a unit's "health"?
Brother Greg posted 12-03-98 10:26 PM ET
You can't attack with a stack as far as I am aware. You attack with one unit at a time, and they defend with one at a time, just like in CIV II. Except now you get collateral damage, and a few rules about attacking stacks thrown in.
Once again, this was their design as of over 6 months ago, so who knows what they have done since?
Eric Olsen and I had some really cool arguments back on the old Firaxis.COM forums about this model of combat.
Brother Greg.
Shining1 posted 12-03-98 10:48 PM ET
Having just purchased Warlords III: Darklords Rising (I game which I recommend, if only for the huge amount of gameplay in it), I think I should add my $NZ0.02.
In Warlords, you can group units into defined stacks, making movement much easier because you get to move all eight (the maximum allowed) units at once. The downside is that the stack can only move as fast as the slowest unit, which makes sense. You also get to attack with all units in that stack at once, although the battle is a rather simplistic one-to-one queue with the units in the other stack, aside from a few +/- modifiers.
Now, it has been mentioned somewhere that units in SMAC will be able to be grouped in stacks and moved as a pack, rather than individually, which was one of the major flaws of CivII. However, with the 'One
Death + Splash' damage inflicted in SMAC, it appears as if you only get to attack with individual units.
I still find this a very inelegant system, considering the possibilities that grouped units, working closely together, would provide.
On the other hand, with most of the weaponry being futuristic, there is less need for cooperation within a group, instead calling upon a mix of diversely placed units - an inital airstrike, followed by an artillery barrage, and only then followed by 'hand to hand' combat between ground units.
As against that, there are still notable instances where combined groups would make more sense than plowing individual units into battle.
Come to think of it, combat in Civilisation was what irritated me most about the game. It could be the main flaw in SMAC, as well...
SnowFire posted 12-04-98 12:15 AM ET
But Warlords had that queue, which made it no better than Civ: while they all moved together they only attack one at a time (which makes no sense). And Warlords was also far far more simplistic than the reigning king of TBFS, HOMM II, which allowed tactical combat.
Marian posted 12-06-98 09:20 AM ET
The Zone and beyondac.com also have collected some unit names that already have been released.
Also there is a NEW UNITS section in the zone where you can post new ideas for units, that I want to realize through the customizable files once SMAC has been released.
Ciao
Marian
Editor of the Alpha Centauri Zone
http://www.juhu.de/hartel/alpha
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Author	Topic: A guide to SMAC: Combat
Brother Greg	posted 11-13-98 12:12 AM ET This, brothers and sisters, is to be the repository for all of the knowledge we have compiled about SMAC. Whether it be through magazines, web sites, or the hallowed forums themselves, if it has been stated somewhere, I want to see it here. However, try not to duplicate TOO much of the FAQ or the story. =) Each "topic" I will prefix with the title: "A guide to SMAC: [topic name]" for easy reference. If you feel the lack of a topic, feel free to start it. Just try and stick to the same naming conventions... Hopefully this should be a comprehensive guide to all of the "verified" knowledge that we have. A good guide for newbies, and a good reference for the vets amongst us. Please quote all sources. Note that some information may be old, and out of date, esp from the old forums. Feel free to add any verified facts, no matter how old they may be... Also note that I don't see this as a place to debate the merits of the knowledge. Please start a new thread if that is your wish. Otherwise, people may have to wade through hundreds of lines to discover something. =) So, to start off the "Combat" topic: Stacks ------ Units may be assigned to "stacks", and moved as one. So, no more moving each unit individually. (from the FAQ) Combat will no longer be the "strongest unit in a stack dies, they all die" of CIV and CIV II. Units stacked with the losing defender will suffer collateral damage. No details yet of how much. (from the FAQ) Ranged Attack ------------- Some units will be able to attack from distance. No longer will your artillery have to be next to a unit to attack. Damage from such attacks is limited, and against a normal defending unit, only a proportion of damage will be suffered. So, no, you can't sit back and pick off approaching units with impunity. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums) However, if there is opposing artillery in the defending unit, the two artillery units will duke it out to the death. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums) Air units --------- Will not be able to attack ground units units until all flying units in the stack are destroyed. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums) May scrablme to the defence of units attacked by enemy air if within range. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums) Production of units ------------------- A unit's costs will increase considerably if it contains the best of everything. So, two units, one with the best defensive capabilities, and one with the best offensive capabilities, may very well be cheaper than one with the best of everything. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums) Units are designed with components. A base chassis is chosen, and then offensive, defensive, reactor and special ability components are added to the chassis to produce a unit. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums, and the Gallery - Design your own Units) Unit designs may be saved. The first unit produced (prototype) will cost 50% more than further units. (from posts by Firaxis on the "old" forums, and the Gallery - Design your own Units) Units may be assigned a "role" (defensive, scout, naval, etc). One assumes that this is to help the AI if your bases are set to autobuild - see also knowledge thread on cities - autobuild. (from the Gallery - Design your own Units, and deductions by me)
Drakenred	posted 12-03-98 03:13 AM ET Now that we got THAT all cleared up now im confudes your saying Air units cant atack ground units untill they are destroyed? or that Stacked Air units cant atack ground units untill they are destroyed (doncha hate posters that bring up buried posts)<G>
Brother Greg	posted 12-03-98 06:27 PM ET I am saying that if your opponent has air defences in a stack (or scrambled from nearby), you cannot attack his ground units with your air units until all of his defending air units have been destroyed. Clear as mud now? Brother Greg.
SnowFire	posted 12-03-98 08:44 PM ET Now that makes no sense. You could attack tanks protected by SAM batteries and do some substantial damage, if you don't mind getting murdered and having half your planes not return. While it should definitely be more damaging to the attacker, there should be no prohibition against it.
Brother Greg	posted 12-03-98 09:00 PM ET What? We're talking about air units, not SAM batteries. Sorry, should have been more specific. To put it in CIV II terms: If enemy stack has a fighter and a Rifleman, your bomber cannot attack the Rifleman until it has taken out the fighter. That makes perfect sense if you think about it. Brother Greg.
Spoe	posted 12-03-98 09:07 PM ET I think a better model might be that sure, you can attack the ground unit, but and anti air defenses(or artillery in the case of ground forces attacking) would contribute some defensive ability to the unit attacked. Of course, this is kind of moot at this point -- I seriously doubt they'd be changing this before release. Maybe if we clamoured enough for it it might make it into a later patch.
Keith Bennett	posted 12-03-98 10:09 PM ET You are forgetting that when units fight, some of the damage inflicted will spill over onto other units in the stack. Your plane will first attack their plane, and there will be some collateral damage on other units, such as that riflemen. What I am unsure about is how stack combat will be implemented. Say you attack a stack of ground, ranged, and air units with another stack of ground, air, and ranged units. The air units will attack each other and ranged units will attack each other - but will it be one unit vs. one unit? Will they beat on each other until dead (as is Civ2)? Is there a priority (first ranged, then air)? Do you choose one unit to attack at a time? Is there an option to break off the attack afer suffering X% of a unit's "health"?
Brother Greg	posted 12-03-98 10:26 PM ET You can't attack with a stack as far as I am aware. You attack with one unit at a time, and they defend with one at a time, just like in CIV II. Except now you get collateral damage, and a few rules about attacking stacks thrown in. Once again, this was their design as of over 6 months ago, so who knows what they have done since? Eric Olsen and I had some really cool arguments back on the old Firaxis.COM forums about this model of combat. Brother Greg.
Shining1	posted 12-03-98 10:48 PM ET Having just purchased Warlords III: Darklords Rising (I game which I recommend, if only for the huge amount of gameplay in it), I think I should add my $NZ0.02. In Warlords, you can group units into defined stacks, making movement much easier because you get to move all eight (the maximum allowed) units at once. The downside is that the stack can only move as fast as the slowest unit, which makes sense. You also get to attack with all units in that stack at once, although the battle is a rather simplistic one-to-one queue with the units in the other stack, aside from a few +/- modifiers. Now, it has been mentioned somewhere that units in SMAC will be able to be grouped in stacks and moved as a pack, rather than individually, which was one of the major flaws of CivII. However, with the 'One Death + Splash' damage inflicted in SMAC, it appears as if you only get to attack with individual units. I still find this a very inelegant system, considering the possibilities that grouped units, working closely together, would provide. On the other hand, with most of the weaponry being futuristic, there is less need for cooperation within a group, instead calling upon a mix of diversely placed units - an inital airstrike, followed by an artillery barrage, and only then followed by 'hand to hand' combat between ground units. As against that, there are still notable instances where combined groups would make more sense than plowing individual units into battle. Come to think of it, combat in Civilisation was what irritated me most about the game. It could be the main flaw in SMAC, as well...
SnowFire	posted 12-04-98 12:15 AM ET But Warlords had that queue, which made it no better than Civ: while they all moved together they only attack one at a time (which makes no sense). And Warlords was also far far more simplistic than the reigning king of TBFS, HOMM II, which allowed tactical combat.
Marian	posted 12-06-98 09:20 AM ET The Zone and beyondac.com also have collected some unit names that already have been released. Also there is a NEW UNITS section in the zone where you can post new ideas for units, that I want to realize through the customizable files once SMAC has been released. Ciao Marian Editor of the Alpha Centauri Zone http://www.juhu.de/hartel/alpha