posted 11-03-98 09:21 AM ET        

Good to see you all back again ... thought I'd start part 3 of this thread ... hopefully the original thread will be available again !!! To recap a few of the threads we had in the previous versions of this thread:

Why the Canadian 8th Faction is the best !!!
Capt. Garland = a Canadian !!!
Peace treaty signed with the 9th Faction: EuRoland!
I really can't remember the rest right now!

Anyways, this is a forum for all members of the Canadian 8th Faction ... as a prerequisite to being a member, you don't necessarily have to be for Canada, you just have to stand for our beliefs (truth, integrity among others), live by our strong moral code all the while attaining intellectual enlightenment !!!

So I now proclaim this thread open and ready for all members of the Canadian 8th Faction !!!

Members of EuRoland are also welcome upon presentation of proper documentation !!!

posted 11-03-98 09:36 AM ET            

And I have some Southern and JD here too !!!

I already took care of the music too .. great house music playing loud and proud !!!

posted 11-03-98 10:42 AM ET            

Ok, we're the US, we're stronger than you, we're taking you over! Men seize them. Men! Men?? MEN!?!?!

(YYYH looks to find his men being seduced by Canadian women, & eating Canadian french-fries)

Oh damn!

(YYYH walks back to America, the look of defeat in his eyes)

FREEDOM, LIBERTY & SMAC!!!

posted 11-03-98 05:52 PM ET            

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!

posted 11-03-98 06:28 PM ET            

Patton! Washington! Eisenhower! Lincoln! Grant! Lee! Pershing! Pancho Villa! wait no, not Pancho Villa. Davy Crockett!

As all the heroes of American past walk in, all the heroes of Canadian past confront them. Fortunately that is no one, so the Americans advance in, only to be taken over by the french fries!

GODdamn those fries!!!!

(YYYH secretly blows up all of Canada's deep friers)

YYYH silently laughs as what Canada's entire economy goes up in flames!!

posted 11-03-98 07:41 PM ET            

Plus some family members live up there. And I know you'll find this hard to believe, but my grandma sewed uniforms for the CANADIAN army in WWII. Amazing, my grandma was a Cannuck!!

FREEDOM, LIBERTY & SMAC!!!

posted 11-03-98 10:09 PM ET            

I brought some pepper.

posted 11-04-98 10:41 AM ET            

As for the radiation poissening, don't fret, our superior technology department has already come up with a vaccine !!!

Please don't bring up APEC in here ... what a waist of tax-payers money ... here's what I think, the RCMP and federal government should have the right to protect the leaders of other nations in WHATEVER way they see fit ... ALTHOUGH ... whatever means of force the decide to use should be clearly expresed well before hand .. some people really messed up .. .I feel that they acted with a justified amount of force if they had forwarned the protesters excactly what the concequences would be !!!

OK Change of subject !!!

posted 11-04-98 11:25 AM ET            

CHARGE......

Alberta is a wonderful place, you should be happy we brought you Preston Manning. Reeeeeforrrrrmm. hahahaha. Everybody needs somebody to laugh at.

Edmonton legion signing off

posted 11-04-98 11:46 AM ET            

And I can assure you that I've never heard someone telling me that I was stupid for being Separatist (or for whatever other reason).

posted 11-04-98 02:35 PM ET            

1. Historical : who could accept to be part of a country by force? Geeze! We've been conquered by the Brits! Not only that but we have been kept in the country by force. The Patriot war in 1837, the October Crisis in 1970 are only 2 examples. Worst, the Constitution of 1982 has been signed without Quebec. Legally, the Constitution is illegal because not all the Provinces accepted it.

Every day our rights are challenged by the rest of Canada. Like said YYYH..."He who forgets the past, is condemned to repeat it". Since 1759, it has been always the same thing happening over and over again... I cant forget the past...I just cant!

2. Cultural : we are 7 millions in Quebec. More than 80% are of French ancestors. We have a different kind of living and thinking from the Canadians of English ancestors. I think that being a large group like that is an enough good reason to make our country. Right now it is like having a country in a country.

3. Political : the fact that we think differently is a major pain in the ass for the Canadian political system. Because usually, Quebecers will push their ideas on the federal scene with unanimity. That's why a party like Le Bloc Quebecois exists. So it is always a battle between Quebec and the rest of the Canada in the Federal Chamber. I think that it would be better if Canadians could make their politics without having us in their way all the time. On the other hand, we are tired of having to battle all the time for all the issues we are defending for Quebec. We want to be the only masters of our destiny. We dont need English Canadians of Alberta or Newfoundland or whatever other Province to tell us how to behave.

4. Pride : I'm always thinking of Marcellus in Pulp Fiction when I'm told by federalists that I should swallow the pill and accept that I am Canadian.

MARSELLUS : Now the night of the fight, you may fell a slight sting, that's pride ****in' wit ya. **** pride! Pride only hurts, it never helps.

The fact is that no human being can accept to be lowered to the level of second class citizens. And I dont think that if Canada was 19 million french people and 7 millions english people that the english part would accept to stay in Canada. They are proud too! What does mean pride in this way? It means that Quebecers considered themselves to be a nation. It is not rigth to keep a nation under the power of another. I remember 13 little colonies who did get to the same conclusion a couple of years ago...in 1776.

Never underestimate pride...

5. Economic : yes, the separation would hurt us...and the rest of Canada too, on the economic level. But I think it is more important to be happy and a little less rich than be unhappy and a little richer. The federalists dont stop to tell us that our debates on separation create an instability in the economy. The truth is that we will never quit talking about it until we achieve it. So we will always be in an economic instability climate. On the other hand...if we do the separation you can kiss your instability goodbye because now we will be two strong political nations without internal fights all the time. Wich is stability!

---------------------------------------------

posted 11-04-98 02:53 PM ET            

1. Each differt province has it own way of thinking about things. I have lived in several and have found that no two think the same. So by that reason alone, we should all split our own ways. Overstatement obviously.

2. Yes there are probably 6.something million french, but I do not think they are all in Quebec. I know for a fact that a large population of northern alberta is French Canadian, just as much so as those in Quebec. The other 19 million Canadians are NOT all english. A good million of the people residing in western Canada are of either Chinese, German or Irish heritage. I will overstate the situation again. Should we break up provinces themselves.

3 Economic. Western Canada brings in more money to Canada then it receives, should we break up because of it???

4. Almost every country is comprised of a conquered land. No country around today would survive if we were to break up into our Composite components. Well, Ireland would stay Ireland, but that is about the only exception.

5. Your post makes it seem like the rest of Canada is keeping Quebec from leaving. You mention that out of the seven million people in quebec 80% are of french ancestors. If you all agreed to seperation you would have seperated by now, but you don't.

6. I have a question. What would you do about the split up of Quebec itself. The indian which occupy a majority in Northern Quebec would not leave Canada. Are you willing to let them have the land they now occupy and remain part of Canada, plus: what about those towns that do not want to seperate???

And finally, I do wish the government would allow the rest of Canada to partake in the voting. Quebec'ers just might find that alot of people are just tired of it and want it resolved, even if this does mean seperation.

As for myself, it doesn't really matter to me. I wish goodluck to the majority and if it wishes to leave the country, all the best on the new nation. Peace love and the 8th faction

posted 11-04-98 02:54 PM ET            

1. Historical : who could accept to be part of a country by force? Geeze! We've been conquered by the Brits! Not only that but we have been kept in the country by force.

-- Being part: if I'd go back in the hsitory of my country, every region or even every town would have a reason to say that. If you feel strongly about, ok, but something that has happened long time ago is no convincing argument in itself. And kept in by force ? There have been several referanda, all for staying in Canada. Where's the force ?

2. Cultural : we are 7 millions in Quebec. More than 80% are of French ancestors. We have a different kind of living and thinking
from the Canadians of English ancestors. I think that being a large group like that is an enough good reason to make our country. Right now it is like having a country in a country.

-- I let the whole point in here. The 7 Million people in Quebec, 80 % french, that's 5,6 million, that's 20 % of Canada's population. The 20 % english in Quebec-do they have a right to "counter-separate" then?

3. Political : the fact that we think differently is a major pain in the ass for the Canadian political system. Because usually, Quebecers will push their ideas on the federal scene with unanimity...

-- Many parties have regional strongholds. If you can protect your interests in that process, fine. And the results of Canada's political process do not seem to be too bad...

4. Pride : I'm always thinking of Marcellus in Pulp Fiction when I'm told by federalists that I should swallow the pill and accept
that I am Canadian....

-- With the pride argument, I could justify anything. I'm proud, I accept no kind of government at all...

The fact is that no human being can accept to be lowered to the level of second class citizens...

-- Is that the case ? Why ?

It is not rigth to keep a nation under the power of another.

-- Again, is that the case ? You have your representation at the national level, the rights of the province. Is Quebec really suppressed ?

5. Economic : yes, the separation would hurt us...and the rest of Canada too, on the economic level. But I think it is more important to be happy and a little less rich than be unhappy and a little richer...

-- Just the question whether it's worth it. Little benefits in independence vs large economic losses... I'd prefer staying in under that circumstances.

posted 11-04-98 03:14 PM ET            

To paraphrase Philippe:
I will vote for the PQ.
But I am _not_ a Separatist.

And what is this whole anti-Qu�bec thing? =(

Btw, Bernie Sanders & Barbara Boxer won! Whoho! =)

-Maya

posted 11-04-98 05:13 PM ET            

Did you live in Quebec for some time? If so, you should know what I mean by thinking and living another way. It is really different. I know that Canada is not a two dimension country (english or french culture). I dont deny that British Columbia and Ontario probably have different way of living. Or Alberta-Saskatchewan-Manitoba versus the Atlantic provinces. But as a whole, Quebec stands alone.

When you ask me if British Columbia should also separate, my answer is : yes if you think you have to. And probably, Ontario is really scared at that perspective. If Quebec do the separation...what will stop the other provinces to follow?

You say that no country would survive if he had to split himself in several parts. A 7 million people country is totally viable. There is a couple of those countries in Europe. Why couldnt we succeed?

When you say that the rest of Canada is not keeping us from doing the separation it is partly true. The citizens dont, but the federal government is trying to keep us in Canada. The proof? Why the hell do they come in Quebec to do politic each time we do a referendum?! We shouldnt even hear from them when we are in a referendum campaign!

Finally, I'm not against the rest of the Canada doing a referendum to know what they think of the separation. As long as your referendum is not merged with ours. It is our decision, not yours if we want to separate.

------------------------------------

Roland :

How would you feel being part of France since the wars of Napoleon? That would be fun isnt it? You would be in minority in the Republic. All the rest of the country would be in french only but in your province that would be german and french. Nice isnt it?!

And yes, the rest of Canada has kept us from getting away. Either by force or by lies. The separatists parties appeared principally in the 1960s and finally the first one to be elected was the PQ in 1976. In 1980 and 1995 we had a referendum. Only 2 referendums since 1759?! Isnt that a little strange? Maybe the repression of 1837 when hundreds of french canadians were killed by the english army has something to do with that... Maybe the fact that we were kept in poverty by the english citizens... Since 1759 the people of Quebec want there independance. We tried by the force to take it in 1837 and it didnt work. In 1970 we tried terrorism and it didnt work. Since the late 1970s we try by democracy to do it.

As for letting the rest of Quebec do a counter-separation. It cant be possible. Even the rest of Canada has said so. If we separate, there will not be a reunification. The territory of Quebec cant be broken in parts because it is a whole. On the other hand, Canada is the unification of 9 provinces and 2 territories. It is in the first constitution of 1867. If it is an unification, it can be separated.

For the pride. Well, if you are 6 millions to be so proud of yourselves at a whole to kick out any kind of government, then do so!

And yes, we are by default 2nd class citizen. As long as we live in Quebec our rights are defended. But if you live in another part of Canada and you are french canadian...it is a totally other story. Why? Because we speak french! That's all.

You could say that we have a good representation in the country. The first government in Canada was in 1792. At the time we had no rigths even if we were 95% of the population. It took almost 100 years before we had a word to say in the decisions. And since the 1960s, the federal cant take huge decisions (like changing the constitution) without having the unanimity of the provinces. Wich should mean that without the Quebec agreement the Canada cant change is constitution. The truth is that the Canada did change it in 1982 without the agreement of Quebec. So, they dont care at all about us. If they want something they take it. What's the democracy after all?!

And what is really the federation? Canada is suppose to be a confederation as written in the 1867 constitution. Wich is a regroupment of provinces with a weak federal government who should only do internationnal diplomacy and keep an army.

The reality is that Canada is a federation where the federal is strong and the provinces are weak. Half of the taxes go to the federal. They have their hands in healthcare, economy, laws, work... in fact the only things they cant touch in Quebec is education, civil laws and the election laws. I dont think it is the kind of federation you would think of when you talk about the European one.

------------------------
I know it can be hard for the people outside of Quebec to understand the situation here. In 1980, 40% of Quebecers voted yes for the separation. In 1995, 49% voted yes for the separation.

There is a problem of society. Since 1980, Canada had tried to accomodate Quebec in the "confederation" without success. On one side, the other provinces do not want to give us advantages in the country because all provinces should be equal. But for Quebec, it shouldnt be that way. Being a people in minority is hard and all we wanted was to have some kind of way to protect ourselves against the majority. Neither of the camps want to agree on a solution. Quebec has stopped to discuss with the rest of Canada since the late 1980s. Even the federalists in Quebec do not want to. The only way to go is to separate or to accept a Statu Quo.

posted 11-04-98 08:02 PM ET            

Anyways, my point is ... (I have to go to work soon, so I'll just say one thing now and rebuff you points on my week-end) ... My point as I was saying is that because you could give me what in your mind (a scary place to be) is at least one viable reason for seperation then I have to at least respect you .. you have your own (terribly weak) reasons to vote for seperation, and that is your right, and I respect that .. I do not hate you because you want to seperate, every individual on the planet has the right to want whatever he or she wants ... what ticks me off completely, is when people vote and don't have a reason for voting for the side that they did .. 90 to 95% of seperatists that I've asked why they want to seperate can't even come up with one reason ... and to vote on an issue, you have to take things more seriously than that !!!

You have your reasons, and I respect that, but even you will have to admit, that most seperatists can't even give one good reason I'm saying 90-95%, that may be a little biased, but I've asked plenty of seperatists why they want to seperate, and you're only the 2nd one who gave me more than "duuuh .. ummmm ... because ... ummm ... I don't know ... duuuh ... I just want my own country" ... and what is pathetic, is that they don't even understand what that means or its consequences!!!

So, consider yourself in the 5-10% of seperatists that I don't hate !!!

posted 11-04-98 08:26 PM ET            

In fact I personally think the ability to vote is the greatest responsibility someone can have on this planet, and it really pisses me off to see people to that responsibility for granted and not inform themselves on the issues !!! Regardless of who they vote for !!!

So please everyone ... next time you have to vote for something .. inform yourself on both (all is more than 2) sides .. if you don't understand the issues, ask questions ... and if you still don't understand ... DON'T VOTE !!! You're not being fair to the rest of humanity by making a unimformed vote !!!

posted 11-04-98 08:34 PM ET            

EX: Montreal Yes: 40% No: 60%

Quebec: Yes: 54% No: 46%

Chicoutimi: Yes: 70% No: 30%

Gaspesie: Yes: 90% No: 10%

Separatists claim that they are oppressed and impoverished; people in the countryside always make less money than city dwellers.

posted 11-05-98 05:33 AM ET            

"How would you feel being part of France since the wars of Napoleon? That would be fun isnt it? You would be in minority in the Republic. All the rest of the country would be in french only but in your province that would be german and french. Nice isnt it?!"

-- Would be interesting, just that you'd have to decentralise France a lot more to get it to be like Canada. We have a very similar situation: southern Tyrol with a 95-99 % german speaking population became part of Italy in 1918/19. Under fascism, they were vigorously suppressed, Italians were brought in (now 30 % of population) and after WWII, there still were a lot of problems. Some tried terrorism, a very stupid idea. It took along time, but now the country has autonomy. It is bilingual, the rest of Italy is not. Despite all the problems, most people there (and I know several from there) don't want to separate, ie become part of Austria. Southern tyrol is now a sort of economic and cultural bridge between german speaking countries and Italy. With european integration, the borders drawn in 1918/19 have become less significant. This is a way to handle the burdens of history without shouting for independence or crying all the time how bad history has treated you.

"And yes, the rest of Canada has kept us from getting away. Either by force or by lies..."

-- You still didn't argue the "force". And one person's argument may be lies to another person, but do you want to outlaw peoplle's opinions just cause you consider them lies ?

"As for letting the rest of Quebec do a counter-separation. It cant be possible. Even the rest of Canada has said so. If we separate, there will not be a reunification. The territory of Quebec cant be broken in parts because it is a whole. On the other hand, Canada is the unification of 9 provinces and 2 territories. It is in the first constitution of 1867. If it is an unification, it can be separated."

-- Why can only unifications be separated ? The principle of self determination applies regardless.

"And yes, we are by default 2nd class citizen. As long as we live in Quebec our rights are defended. But if you live in another part of Canada and you are french canadian...it is a totally other story. Why? Because we speak french! That's all."

-- And still you haven't said which bad things happen to you outside of Quebec.

"The reality is that Canada is a federation where the federal is strong and the provinces are weak. Half of the taxes go to the federal. They have their hands in healthcare, economy, laws, work... in fact the only things they cant touch in Quebec is education, civil laws and the election laws. I dont think it is the kind of federation you would think of when you talk about the European one."

-- people tend to underestimate the level of integration Europe has reached. The EU only gets about 5 % of taxes, butthe economy is to 80 % (if you can put %ages on that) run at the Euro level, there are several work regulations, there is a significant influence on civil law and in election laws. And that's what I support, yes.

Different thing:

Victor: "If Romania, the country where I was born, were to reclaim its old lands then two neighboring countries would cease to exist. Two more would lose their capitals and most of their territories."

-- Could you name those countries and bring up a bit of history ? Just curious...

Now if Austria wanted to regain it's old territories, that would mean:
Tzech Republic: gone
Slovakia: gone
Slovenia: gone
Hungary: gone (or part of "double" state)
Croatia: gone
Romania: half gone
Parts of Italy, Poland, Ucraine, Serbia

posted 11-05-98 10:18 AM ET            

The vote for seperation ... (as said before the Supreme Court's decision by none other than the seperatist PQ goverment) .. is a social vote and not a legal issue ... I fully agree with him ... if 50.1% vote to separate, then Quebec should separate ... by the same PQ argument, then the municipalities within Quebec should have the same social vote to self dicision ... unfortuanately, most (not all) separatist are so blinded by their own narrowmindedness that they can't see it as the same thing .. again I refer to the stupid vote factor ... the fact is that the higher you progress in the level of education, the higher the percentage of people who don't want to separate !!! That is an actual fact !!!

I don't mean to say that there aren't some rocket scientists who don't want to separate and that there aren't some loonatics who want to stay, but polls have shown that on the average people who want to stay are more intellectual and have had a higher education on average than separatists !!!

Grrr .. now I'm all worked up when it's time for me to go to bed !!!

posted 11-05-98 12:29 PM ET            

Montreal is anti-separatist because it is where the majority of english quebecers live. While english Quebecers live concentrated in certain areas (Montreal, Hull and Estrie), the french Quebecers occupy a large superficy of the territory. So it isnt surprising to find that Montreal is so anti-separatist.

Now, where are all the french Quebecers that work in Montreal? The middle-class french Quebecers prefer to live in suburbs like Laval, Brossard, Longeuil, St-Jean... Those are all separatist regions. And the people living there are majorly middle-class or rich french Quebecers.

It is false to say that only poor rural people vote for the separation.

We know that 99% (yes, there is english Quebecers who vote for separation!) of english Quebecers vote against the separation. And a majority of non-english or non-french Quebecers vote against the separation.

To obtain 49.4% of separatist votes show that the french Quebecers in majority are for the separation. This demonstrates that a large spectrum of all classes of society is represented in the separatist vote.

For Gaspesie and the Saguenay region they are two places where people have learned to live by themselves due to their geographical situation. They know that leaving the Canada would not hurt them because they never had any advantages or help coming from Ottawa.

------------------------------

DJ RRebel :

You dont need to say that I am stupid to make your point. Just show us your reasons to stay in Canada. Let's keep this on the civilized level.

Now for the "uneducated separatist" thing it is not true and I would like to know where you heard that "fact". The reality is that poor and unemployed french Quebecers will usually vote against separation. On the other hand, the rich french Quebecers will vote against too. So, the middle class is the core of the separatist vote. And the middle-class is educated.

Two facts :
Outremont, wich is the place of predilection for rich french Quebecers to live is majorly anti-separatist.

Verdun or St-Henry who are two places where the poor french Quebecers live are majorly anti-separatists.

Finally, for your "90% of separatists dont know why they vote for separation"... Ususally when someone asks me if I'm for the separation I would say yes without an hesitation. If he asks me why, I would say that it is for personnal reasons. Why? Because I dont want to figth for my believes all the time! And I know it is the same thing for a great number of separatists. They know why they vote for the separation but they dont want to argue about it. This is a personnal choice.

One of my best friend is anti-separation. I've never battled with him on the idea of separation. It is bad for friendship.

posted 11-05-98 02:24 PM ET            

You seem to think that Canada is federation of provinces pretty free of what they want to do. That's not the case. If Austria was part of France, you wouldnt have to descentralize France to make it look like Canada. Canada is very centralized and kept under the power of the Federal Government. Not only Quebec wants to have more power but the other provinces too.

**************************
Here is an example of being kept by force :
1837, the people of Quebec are poor and are starving. In 1834 they asked for changes in the union (there was only Ontario and Quebec at the time). They sent delegates in England. The king literaly laughed at them. Frogs should not complain...they are inferiors after all. So, in the autumn of 1837 they declared themselves to be independant. The king of England simply sent soldiers against us. They killed the couple of french canadian rebels that could find a gun to defend themselves and they hanged a couple of others. They also burned a lot of farms and destroyed the newspapers of Quebec. Knowledge is very bad and a population starving is good to keep it under your power...I could hear Nicolas Machiavel himself. In 1840, Lord Durham stated to the King of England that we should be assimilated in the english culture by sending alot of immigrates. It would for our best because we have no culture and stupid (didnt Napoleon invade the Europe for the greater good of the culture of other countries...after all the french culture was better...according to him!). Also he said that we should unite with the Ontario and the only language should be english. In the Chamber of representant we had less deputy than for Ontario and we had a population many times greater than theirs. Ontario was crippled with debts and Quebec was making money. They transfered the debt of Ontario to Quebec (we werent poor enough I think...).

This is the most flamboyant example of being kept by force. There has been others. For example, in october of 1970 the FLQ (Front of Liberation of Quebec) kidnapped the Ambassador of England (James Cross) and the minister of work (Pierre Laporte) who were two symbols of the imperialism and exploitation of the french Quebecers at the time. The Federal Government could have simply sent his police and find out the kidnappers with their victims. But hell no! They had to send the army and declare the martial laws. They imprisonned hundreds of Quebecers for no reason (my uncle was a student in political science at the time...he got arrested) without mandate. Those Quebecers had no rigths because of the martial laws. This is called a "terror tactic" to keep us from revolting.

Since october 1970 the federal government has stopped to menace us with guns (well they said in 1995 that if we separate there would be a risk that they send the army...). But they keep lying to us on a regular basis.

In 1980, during the referendum campaign, Pierre-Eliott Trudeau (prime minister of Canada) told the Quebecers : "Dont vote for the separation and I will change the Canada!". It seems that a lot of Quebecers believed him. The result was that in 1982 a new constitution was signed without Quebec agreement. Lies and always more lies.

In 1995, during the referendum campaign, Jean Chretien (prime minister of Canada) promised to change the constitution if the Quebecers didnt vote for separation. Nothing has been done. Worst, in the constitution of 1982 it is written that in 1997 all the provinces and the federal have to restate the constitution. Nothing happened in 1997. Jean Chretien said that Quebecers dont need to be recognized as a people founder of Canada. According to him we have no cultural differences and particularities. We even have no cinema industry exclusively from Quebec he said. Lies.

**************************
What happens if you live outside of Quebec. Canada is suppose to be billingual. There is only a french speaking school in Ontario and a couple of them in New Brunswick. In Quebec, the immigrants like Victor would argue that they cant go to english school. But it is different because they come in Canada. They have to choose whether they want to live in Quebec in french or elsewhere in english in Canada. The english people of Quebec have access to english school all the time. They have to be born of an english family living in Canada for at least 3 generations. It is a measure to stop the assimilation process. We dont want to lose our language and I think it is normal to act like this.

In Quebec you can be served in english pratically always. In Montreal it is always. Maybe the first waitress to speak with you will not speak english but she will be replaced by someone who does. There is no question about this. We want to serve the people in french AND english as they like. In the rural regions it is more difficult but you can be served in english.

Now, if you go in Edmonton for example, dont even think about asking to be served in french. They will treat you like ****.

In Quebec it is possible to work in english exclusively. Elsewhere in Canada it is impossible to work in french.

I must also add that if you are french Quebecers you will be often victim of racism based on your language. Many times I've been served by an angry waitress in the maritime provinces. They cant accept to serve a Quebecer.

posted 11-05-98 02:38 PM ET            

Well, I dare say that France is a lot more centralised than Canada.

The history argument is always problematic. If I'd use it for my country, I'd have a reason to fight a war of revenge with almost every country in europe - and maybe vice versa.

posted 11-05-98 03:07 PM ET            

You think you're being persecuted! Give me a break! You don't know what persecution is, and I do. I work in the human rights field and I know what oppression is. You're not a part of that group. Sorry buddy.

There is absolutely no reason why Quebec should seperate accept to satisfy the national asperations of a insecure society! The only reason why Quebecers want to seperate is for nationalistic reasons. I blame nationalism, and that is all.

Not one separatist has ever given anyone a decent practical reason why they should separate. They refuse to admit that it is pure nationalism.

posted 11-05-98 03:14 PM ET            

Just curious: What does the refugee board do ? Handle asylum claims ? If so, does it enjoy a certain degree of independence ?

posted 11-05-98 03:31 PM ET            

Yes, the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada is an independent administrative tribunal that determines the status of refugees that land on Canadian soil. I work for a research branch of the Board. I conduct background checks on refugees from all over the world. I am well aware of "persecution and oppression", which makes Philippe's arguments a complete joke, just like most separatist arguments.

If you think that I feel strongly about this, you're right I do. Being a French Canadian living outside of Quebec, I find I have a lot to loose. Separatists don't realize that those people, like me, who have maintained their French heritage outside of Quebec would be very vulnerable to the separatist issue. If Quebec separates, all of the Government funding that goes into French Language programs in Canada is going to go down the toobs because there is no way that a separated Canada is going to support French in any way. There will be very bitter feelings and I don't want to be on the receiving end of that.

posted 11-05-98 03:42 PM ET            

Also, I was ure that you cherish your cultural heritage, and I'm sure, at least as much as Philippe. Why the difference in oopinion ? It takes a huge lack of self confidence to cry for separation and feel persecuted, and to fear for one's identity in circumstances like this. Only those who have weak identity are afraid of losing it so easily.

"Mais que voulez vous, on s'habitue � tout"
(from our french book in school)

posted 11-05-98 03:43 PM ET            

I dont think that Quebecers are whinners. What I do think is that when other canadians ask us why we want to separate they dont like what they hear from us. They laugh and dont believe a word. Fine with me. Then let us do our separation in peace. And stop telling us that we are fool to even think about it.
If you think that we have a false sentiment of being oppressed then why should you bothered...? Let us cry in our corner.

And I'll tell you why it is so important that we can have services in our language in the other provinces. The Canada is a billingual country based on English AND French. We care about the english language in Quebec and think that it is important to preserve it. But we cant accept that in the rest of Canada french is not used also as a second language.
In our mind it is clear that Canada should be completely billingual. Everybody should speak english AND french. What's the problem with that? Many countries in Europa speak more than one language. But in the rest of Canada the only language is english.

What are we doing in that country? It is based on 2 nations that founded it and only one of them is acting according to that. The other just thinks that she is the only nation.

----------------------------

Roland :

1.

We want to achieve auto-determination by doing the separation. We want to be the only masters of our destiny. We dont need and dont want the opinion of the other provinces to know how to manage our government. And this is exactly what is happening in Canada. The Federal Government is principally a view of how to manage a country based on a majority of english Canadians. We are able to decide for ourselves. Second to this, we dont like the way the political system is built in Canada. Either it will changed (and the english Canadians dont want to) or we will get out of it.

2.

posted 11-05-98 03:51 PM ET            

Here is the difference:

Philippe was born and raised in Qu�bec (I assume).

I was born and raised in Ontario. My mother is partly of English decent, and like I said, French Canadians who live outside Quebec have a lot to loose if Quebec separates. Besides, that point, I'm proudly Canadian (although I try not to speak too loudly about so that not to sound too patriotic). I have a lot of respect for Canada as a nation and we have a lot to be proud of. Separatist make it difficult for French Canadians in the eyes of other Canadians.

The issue here is between Quebec and the rest of the 'mainly' English provinces. Quebec wants to be recognized as a distinct society (which I have no problem with because this part is true - they are distinct and different), but they also want more powers. The other provinces agree that more powers should be given to all provinces, but for some reason, Quebec feels that it should be given special rights. They already enjoy a different legal system and juristiction over cultural and language issues and laws. What more do they want?

posted 11-05-98 04:09 PM ET            

There is no reason why Canadians should be forced to speak french. I know many, many people in Canada and in Quebec who do not speak English, and that doesn't bother me. Frankly I find your attitude very narrow minded. My grandfather has lived in Ontario for 35 years and he still does not speak English. I think that is very charming, and I love him for it, I don't blame him for anything.

Open your eyes Philippe.... nationalism is not a good reason to separate. You can still have a French identity and still be a Canadian.

By the way, for everyone that doesn't know the Quebec laws are based on the Napoleonic code. Now there is a great precedent. Lots of oppression there don't you think Philippe. The Napoleonic code places the state before the rights of the individual, and we have seen a lot of that in Quebec. You want to talk about oppression, what about Quebec oppressing the English language? What about the Quebec Language Laws? Why don't you tell us about that? Describe to everyone that it is... and they can judge for themselves who is being oppressed.

Here are some interesting facts for the rest of you to chew on:

In Quebec, anyone who comes to there as an immigrant must take school in French. They do not have a choice like they do in the rest of Canada;

All the signs in Quebec must be in French. If they have english also, the writting must be a lot smaller. Signs are not permitted to be in any other language but French.

In the rest of Canada, it can be in any language one wishes.

posted 11-05-98 04:12 PM ET            

Principally what we asked was to be recognized as a distinct society and one of the two nations that founded Canada. To do so, Canada must write it in the constitution. English Canadians for some odd reasons refuse to do it. What's the big deal? It is just to recognize legally what everybody know already. It will pleased the Quebecers and wont hurt the rest of Canada. But it seems to be too much asked.

Second, we dont want MORE powers. What we want is that the Federal Government let us decide where to spend our income taxe money. Because we are a distinct society we are acting differently from the rest of Canada. Often what the rest of the Canada wants the Quebec doesnt want it and vice versa. So let us decide what to do with our incomes. Simple enough. The Federal Government must stop to touch our society without our agreement.

Third, we want a veto right on all decisions that would include the Quebec on the nationnal level. This includes all changes on the constitution or for example in the case of war if Quebec doesnt want a conscription and the rest of Canada wants it we would be able to not do it (in 1914 and 1942 we have been forced to go to war against our will).

The rest of Canada doesnt want to let us have a veto right unless all provinces have one too. But it is not understanding why we ask a right like that. We want to be able to not be forced by the rest of Canada by "democratic" means to do things we dont want to. That's why we want a veto. If all the provinces have one, what's the use for us to have one too?! It would become a useless power.

Basically what we say now to Canada is that it has to fill out the 3 conditions entirely before we get back to the discussion table. Since 1980 nothing has been done. We are still waiting. In the meantime we are exploring the possiblity of separation.

posted 11-05-98 04:28 PM ET            

First, our code of law is not based on the napoleonic one but on "la commune de Paris" (Common law of Paris) wich were stated under the reign of Louis XIII.

Second, only the civil code of law is still based on "la commune de Paris". He is considered internationnaly to be much more fair than the one used in England or the rest of Canada.

Third, the criminal code of law is based on the one used in England in the 18th century. Wich is largely the same as today (except for some stupidity like capital death and slavery who just belong to the past). It is a code based on the presumption of innocence. It is right to say that the criminal laws of "la commune de Paris" were based on the presumption of guilt. Wich is not fair of course.

------------------
Now about the 101 law (the language law in Quebec).

Like I said all immigrants must go to french school. Yes in the rest of Canada they have choice...in theory. But where are the french school after all?! In the nutshell they dont have much choice either. It is english or nothing. I dont think that forcing people to go to french school is bad. If you want to live in France I think that you should go to french school. What do you think? And like I said before, english people coming from english family who are living in Canada for at least 3 generations can go in english school in Quebec.

posted 11-05-98 04:28 PM ET            

What I see from your "reasons" for separating has nothing to do with you being treated unfairly. I'm still waiting for that. (BTW, Quebec wasn't a nation went Confederation happened, it was a colony just like Ontario, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia.)

posted 11-05-98 04:37 PM ET            

The only thing that I ask is that if other reagions within Quebec want to remain in Canada, then they should be given that right, because they would automatically because a minority within Quebec, and thus be subject to the same rules as Philippe pointed out above.

This means that Quebec would lose all of its northern territory (about 2/3 of it), because this land is owned by aboriginals who have already voted to remain in Canada. All of the reagions that are predominently English should be able to stay in Canada if they choose -- including Montreal.

How would you like that Philippe?

posted 11-05-98 04:40 PM ET            

Mark my words... if this does happen and Quebec does separate, many separatist are going to regret it because Quebec will not remain unified.

posted 11-05-98 04:50 PM ET            

Following that logic we could take the results of the last referendum and start already to separate the regions that voted yes. But we dont do it. Why is that? Maybe because it is the goal of democracy. We accept that we missed the opportunity to separate by a tiny 0.6%+1 vote. If we do accept it, why does the other Quebecers wouldnt accept that if we win we will separate. They cant accept to be part of Quebec democraticaly?

posted 11-05-98 05:06 PM ET            

I dont think I am obstinate. I just said at first that I was separatist and Roland asked me what were my reasons. I simply told him. In the meantime I had to clarify a couple of reasons and things I said. I answered to questions. And I answered to some false arguments expressed by other people.

posted 11-06-98 05:36 AM ET            

Victor: Slovakia ? Was it part of transsylvania (Siebenbuergen) sometime ? (Not sure about it...)

Ah, yes: Vive le Canada = Es lebe Kanada!

posted 11-07-98 01:28 AM ET            

Let us be friends with our neighbors !!!

As for all the politicts in here, I honestly couldn't be bothered, Phillipe, our political view are very different, and I'm happy for that, if we all thought the same this world would be a very dull place !!!

I started to come up with the beginning of a long long list of reasons Quebec is better off in Canada, but realised you would not listen to my logic as I don't make any sense of your (so called) logic !!!

So let's just make piece and be happy that we live in one of the best (not in economic terms since the whole seperatist issue started of course .. but in terms of city-life .. ) cities in the world !!!

If you don't like Canada, feel free to start the 10th Seperatist Faction who wants to seperate from the other 9 Factions SMAC's 7 + Canadians' 8th + EuRoland's 9th !!!

Aside from that, I pronounce this thread open to anyone who loves CANADA !!!

I've lost track of our membership .. too all members or potential members .. please respond with a 25 character or less Hoooooooooooooooah to affirm your enrolment in the 8th Faction !!!

Be aware of our alience with the 9th faction of EuRoland led by none other them Roland !!!

Together our 2 Factions will take SMACers to the 2nd transendance of the land of eternal alcohol !!!

So 8th Faction Canadians are you ready to assend to transendance ???

posted 11-07-98 08:21 PM ET            

Did it hurt much?

Canadians only exist for the bemusment of Yogoslavs.......

The eighth faction is doomed to obscurity.

Hey hey....careful I just got this suit dry cleaned.

posted 11-10-98 01:05 AM ET            

vive le Canada

Deux phrases � contre le separation:

United we stand, divided we fall.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts

posted 11-10-98 01:53 PM ET            

Hmmmn .. actually, they are rather long aren't they???

Hey Titan & WCW .. welcome to the 8th faction !!!

posted 11-28-98 11:29 AM ET            

"The best Faction: the 8th Faction Canadians" - started by WCW
(I think that was the title ... or somrthing close to that)

Now in >>> "Canadian 8th Faction for Humanity"

It also took a fun little turn in Rolands >>>
"Why Canadians are like the Borg !!!"

Anyways, to all canadians .. and non-Canadian, enjoy these threads !!!

Please, if you have any opinions on the Quebec election coming up this monday, do not talk about it in these threads, I started a special thread called "Quebec" if you want to talk about politics !!!

posted 11-12-98 12:47 AM ET            

Vive le Canada!!

posted 11-12-98 05:37 PM ET            

Maybe I'll drive my troops in a couple times, & they'll be distracted by the pretty girls, or the french fries & I'll be forced to retreat

posted 11-16-98 02:20 PM ET            

Fro a brief history lesson guys ... look in the "Who killed Captain Garland" Thread !!!

posted 11-16-98 08:20 PM ET            

1) Are you here?
2) Are you the leader of the Canadian 8th Faction?
3) Have you read the other thread about our faction started by me?

WCW

posted 11-17-98 11:39 AM ET            

1> I am now !!! (I have one more night to work then 3 days off)
2> Yes and no .. eventually, there will be no leader, I'm also sorta stepping down to make room for the ultimate leader (Captain Garland) ... but that transition hasen't fully occured yet !!!
3> Yes ... And I left you a short post in there, I'll be posting alot over the next 3 days (Excluding today !!!)

posted 11-28-98 11:30 AM ET            

"The best Faction: the 8th Faction Canadians" - started by WCW
(I think that was the title ... or somrthing close to that)

Now in >>> "Canadian 8th Faction for Humanity"

It also took a fun little turn in Rolands >>>
"Why Canadians are like the Borg !!!"

Anyways, to all canadians .. and non-Canadian, enjoy these threads !!!

Please, if you have any opinions on the Quebec election coming up this monday, do not talk about it in these threads, I started a special thread called "Quebec" if you want to talk about politics !!!

posted 11-17-98 09:29 PM ET            

WCW

posted 11-18-98 11:41 AM ET            

So fellow Canadians, let us know if you'd like to participate in the 8th faction's decision making policies ... You won't neccisarily have to be available all the time, but you would need to have good ideas !!!

posted 11-28-98 11:31 AM ET            

=====================================

OK ... Just an update ... this thread continues in >>>
"The best Faction: the 8th Faction Canadians" - started by WCW
(I think that was the title ... or somrthing close to that)

Now in >>> "Canadian 8th Faction for Humanity"

It also took a fun little turn in Rolands >>>
"Why Canadians are like the Borg !!!"

Anyways, to all canadians .. and non-Canadian, enjoy these threads !!!

Please, if you have any opinions on the Quebec election coming up this monday, do not talk about it in these threads, I started a special thread called "Quebec" if you want to talk about politics !!!

OK .. that's all I have to say for now !!!