Do AI factions add value to multiplayer games?

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Author Topic:   Do AI factions add value to multiplayer games?

Bingmann posted 06-17-99 03:41 PM ET
I'd like to hear from people who answer "yes" to this topic and what their reasons are. My current view is that I'd rather eliminate a faction than have it be an AI faction in a multiplayer game. My reasons:
1. AI factions are predictable and easily manipulated, even after plugging the holes in uneven base trading and insincere SE-matching for diplomacy with special PBEM rules. You know what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, and what you need to do to easily outmaneuver them.
2. Diplomacy with AI factions is boring. We've all seen the same canned messages many times playing single player. Most of the time, they act like psychotic lunatics.
3. Having to waste time dealing with an AI faction takes away from being able to interact with an interesting human player instead.
4. By eliminating excess factions instead of assigning them to AI, the game can be played on a smaller map and still have the same faction "density".
jimmytrick posted 06-17-99 04:24 PM ET
I haven't really thought about it, but I promise to.
I am posting as I just learned that I am scheduled to butt heads with Bingmann in a tfs99 PBEM special edition.
Dear Bingmann: As a practicing "psychotic lunatic" with no interest in interacting with any [interesting] human players, I am looking forward to eliminating your excess faction.
Please do not take it personally, I just need to adjust to a smaller than normal map, and have decided to correct the faction "density".
jimmytrick posted 06-17-99 04:27 PM ET
The preceeding was a sample of a typical multiplayer "canned message".
jimmytrick,
(your friendly, predictable and easily manipulated future PBEM opponent)
Bingmann posted 06-17-99 04:45 PM ET
jt - Yeah, but you're a psychotic lunatic that I haven't run into before. We'll see which of us has the greater faction leader "density". You are welcome to eliminate my excess faction as long as you do it in a friendly, predictable, and non-interactive way.
Aredhran posted 06-18-99 04:11 AM ET
Bingmann, in the SE you can set diplomacy attributes to AI players. If you choose vendetta, and (i don't remember the exact names) the option to enforce it, ie. it cannot be change, AI can be made a very tough opponent, especially with transcend production advantage and some superior techs.
Aredhran
-just my CHF 0.05-
Veracitas posted 06-18-99 10:37 PM ET
My thoughts...
The AI gives you another depth to PBEM games. True, they can be somewhat flat after numerous interactions with them in single-player mode, but dealing with them and human factions can be more interesting then singular human factions alone. You can use the computer factions as bouncing boards or scapegoats and have a lot of fun with that. You can have various protectorate empires fighting each other. For instance, when the USA and USSR were fighting Hitler's Germany in WWII, they--the allies--had most of the world at their command. They used the resources from the 'flat' countries to help them to fight the war. Though they played a minimum r�le in the actual fighting, it is kind of fun (and elitist, I suppose) to throw the world around at your command...
It would be interesting if you could still implement computer players in the Bingman challenges that I am playing in. I hope this has helped.
--Veracitas
AlexDePol posted 06-19-99 12:26 AM ET
I don't mind AI factions but what annoys me is that the AI can be so easily doublecrossed.
A typical Example: (UoP and Hive are human)
UoP and Hive have treaty and are united in war agains the Believers. Believers contact UoP and offer treaty if UoP switches sides and attack Hive.
UoP aggrees but tells Hive that it will not fight it. From then on UoP can use Believers for gifts of money/tech/bases and pass them on to the Hive without Believers getting suspicious.
The Hive gets stronger and is killing off the B. The UoP attacks the B and the B is history.
When attempting to double cross the AI there should be some risk associated with it.
AlexDePol posted 06-19-99 12:27 AM ET
I don't mind AI factions but what annoys me is that the AI can be so easily doublecrossed.
A typical Example: (UoP and Hive are human)
UoP and Hive have treaty and are united in war agains the Believers. Believers contact UoP and offer treaty if UoP switches sides and attack Hive.
UoP aggrees but tells Hive that it will not fight it. From then on UoP can use Believers for gifts of money/tech/bases and pass them on to the Hive without Believers getting suspicious.
The Hive gets stronger and is killing off the B. The UoP attacks the B and the B is history.
When attempting to double cross the AI there should be some risk associated with it.
AlexDePol posted 06-19-99 12:28 AM ET
I don't mind AI factions but what annoys me is that the AI can be so easily doublecrossed.
A typical Example: (UoP and Hive are human)
UoP and Hive have treaty and are united in war agains the Believers. Believers contact UoP and offer treaty if UoP switches sides and attack Hive.
UoP aggrees but tells Hive that it will not fight it. From then on UoP can use Believers for gifts of money/tech/bases and pass them on to the Hive without Believers getting suspicious.
The Hive gets stronger and is killing off the B. The UoP attacks the B and the B is history.
When attempting to double cross the AI there should be some risk associated with it.
Veracitas posted 06-19-99 12:04 PM ET
Is this, Alex, a direct response to the plan of Chairman Igor and I to destroy the Believers? I agree, it can be somewhat strange because the AI has no personality whatsoever, but, in keeping with the idea of a 'flat' and subordinate AI, it makes sense. The main game is going to be among the human factions, and the AI factions will be merely protectorate empires as background noise in the face of a bigger war. That is what I was planning on, anyway. And, I would not be so cheap as to sit around and let the Hive fight the war for me. Three-fourths of my cities are currently in full war production, as you have seen by the save file I sent you. I am sure that if MoSe or Indiana found a comp, they would exploit the opportunity as well...
--Veracitas
Igor posted 06-20-99 03:33 PM ET
To: Alex and Veracitas
I agree to fight Believers alone if I get New Jerusalem
Veracitas posted 06-20-99 04:41 PM ET
My pact brother, Igor, in spirit of friendly competition, we shall see who gets there first. Hopefully, we shall share the wealth of the already expansive but militaristically unready Believing faction.
--High Lord Veracitas
cousLee posted 06-20-99 04:50 PM ET
well, I have a 2 player scenario. NvsV (newbie VS vet) pitts the Spartans and the Believers head to head on a custom planet.
can be used in MP, PBEM or SP. Of course, SP is easy to win because the AI uses the Baffoon War tactic.
It has a video bug in. during game play, sections of the map go black, but is easily fixed by zooming out, and back in again.
So you could try MP without the AI, if you want too.
Igor posted 06-21-99 08:22 AM ET
cousLee, BTW, why you put Spartans for newbie? I think they are more difficult to play with compare to Believers.
Aredhran posted 06-21-99 10:54 AM ET
Alex, I think there should also be risks for people who triple-post
Aredhran
symen posted 06-23-99 11:04 AM ET
I agree with Aredhran on this one....how the hell do you triple post alex?
MCinBigD posted 06-23-99 01:54 PM ET
AlexDePol,
Having not yet had the pleasure of playing a multiplayer game, could you not pull the same "I'll pretend to be your friend" scam on a human player? Would not the outcome be the same?
MC
Aredhran posted 06-24-99 03:22 AM ET
Oh, absolutely !
And it's even more devious, since you cannot say of a human opponent, "Geez, he's Morgan, I have green economy so he's going to turn against me sooner or later". There will be no warning whatsoever
(And that's what makes it good)
Aredhran
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Author	Topic: Do AI factions add value to multiplayer games?
Bingmann	posted 06-17-99 03:41 PM ET I'd like to hear from people who answer "yes" to this topic and what their reasons are. My current view is that I'd rather eliminate a faction than have it be an AI faction in a multiplayer game. My reasons: 1. AI factions are predictable and easily manipulated, even after plugging the holes in uneven base trading and insincere SE-matching for diplomacy with special PBEM rules. You know what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, and what you need to do to easily outmaneuver them. 2. Diplomacy with AI factions is boring. We've all seen the same canned messages many times playing single player. Most of the time, they act like psychotic lunatics. 3. Having to waste time dealing with an AI faction takes away from being able to interact with an interesting human player instead. 4. By eliminating excess factions instead of assigning them to AI, the game can be played on a smaller map and still have the same faction "density".
jimmytrick	posted 06-17-99 04:24 PM ET I haven't really thought about it, but I promise to. I am posting as I just learned that I am scheduled to butt heads with Bingmann in a tfs99 PBEM special edition. Dear Bingmann: As a practicing "psychotic lunatic" with no interest in interacting with any [interesting] human players, I am looking forward to eliminating your excess faction. Please do not take it personally, I just need to adjust to a smaller than normal map, and have decided to correct the faction "density".
jimmytrick	posted 06-17-99 04:27 PM ET The preceeding was a sample of a typical multiplayer "canned message". jimmytrick, (your friendly, predictable and easily manipulated future PBEM opponent)
Bingmann	posted 06-17-99 04:45 PM ET jt - Yeah, but you're a psychotic lunatic that I haven't run into before. We'll see which of us has the greater faction leader "density". You are welcome to eliminate my excess faction as long as you do it in a friendly, predictable, and non-interactive way.
Aredhran	posted 06-18-99 04:11 AM ET Bingmann, in the SE you can set diplomacy attributes to AI players. If you choose vendetta, and (i don't remember the exact names) the option to enforce it, ie. it cannot be change, AI can be made a very tough opponent, especially with transcend production advantage and some superior techs. Aredhran -just my CHF 0.05-
Veracitas	posted 06-18-99 10:37 PM ET My thoughts... The AI gives you another depth to PBEM games. True, they can be somewhat flat after numerous interactions with them in single-player mode, but dealing with them and human factions can be more interesting then singular human factions alone. You can use the computer factions as bouncing boards or scapegoats and have a lot of fun with that. You can have various protectorate empires fighting each other. For instance, when the USA and USSR were fighting Hitler's Germany in WWII, they--the allies--had most of the world at their command. They used the resources from the 'flat' countries to help them to fight the war. Though they played a minimum r�le in the actual fighting, it is kind of fun (and elitist, I suppose) to throw the world around at your command... It would be interesting if you could still implement computer players in the Bingman challenges that I am playing in. I hope this has helped. --Veracitas
AlexDePol	posted 06-19-99 12:26 AM ET I don't mind AI factions but what annoys me is that the AI can be so easily doublecrossed. A typical Example: (UoP and Hive are human) UoP and Hive have treaty and are united in war agains the Believers. Believers contact UoP and offer treaty if UoP switches sides and attack Hive. UoP aggrees but tells Hive that it will not fight it. From then on UoP can use Believers for gifts of money/tech/bases and pass them on to the Hive without Believers getting suspicious. The Hive gets stronger and is killing off the B. The UoP attacks the B and the B is history. When attempting to double cross the AI there should be some risk associated with it.
AlexDePol	posted 06-19-99 12:27 AM ET I don't mind AI factions but what annoys me is that the AI can be so easily doublecrossed. A typical Example: (UoP and Hive are human) UoP and Hive have treaty and are united in war agains the Believers. Believers contact UoP and offer treaty if UoP switches sides and attack Hive. UoP aggrees but tells Hive that it will not fight it. From then on UoP can use Believers for gifts of money/tech/bases and pass them on to the Hive without Believers getting suspicious. The Hive gets stronger and is killing off the B. The UoP attacks the B and the B is history. When attempting to double cross the AI there should be some risk associated with it.
AlexDePol	posted 06-19-99 12:28 AM ET I don't mind AI factions but what annoys me is that the AI can be so easily doublecrossed. A typical Example: (UoP and Hive are human) UoP and Hive have treaty and are united in war agains the Believers. Believers contact UoP and offer treaty if UoP switches sides and attack Hive. UoP aggrees but tells Hive that it will not fight it. From then on UoP can use Believers for gifts of money/tech/bases and pass them on to the Hive without Believers getting suspicious. The Hive gets stronger and is killing off the B. The UoP attacks the B and the B is history. When attempting to double cross the AI there should be some risk associated with it.
Veracitas	posted 06-19-99 12:04 PM ET Is this, Alex, a direct response to the plan of Chairman Igor and I to destroy the Believers? I agree, it can be somewhat strange because the AI has no personality whatsoever, but, in keeping with the idea of a 'flat' and subordinate AI, it makes sense. The main game is going to be among the human factions, and the AI factions will be merely protectorate empires as background noise in the face of a bigger war. That is what I was planning on, anyway. And, I would not be so cheap as to sit around and let the Hive fight the war for me. Three-fourths of my cities are currently in full war production, as you have seen by the save file I sent you. I am sure that if MoSe or Indiana found a comp, they would exploit the opportunity as well... --Veracitas
Igor	posted 06-20-99 03:33 PM ET To: Alex and Veracitas I agree to fight Believers alone if I get New Jerusalem
Veracitas	posted 06-20-99 04:41 PM ET My pact brother, Igor, in spirit of friendly competition, we shall see who gets there first. Hopefully, we shall share the wealth of the already expansive but militaristically unready Believing faction. --High Lord Veracitas
cousLee	posted 06-20-99 04:50 PM ET well, I have a 2 player scenario. NvsV (newbie VS vet) pitts the Spartans and the Believers head to head on a custom planet. can be used in MP, PBEM or SP. Of course, SP is easy to win because the AI uses the Baffoon War tactic. It has a video bug in. during game play, sections of the map go black, but is easily fixed by zooming out, and back in again. So you could try MP without the AI, if you want too.
Igor	posted 06-21-99 08:22 AM ET cousLee, BTW, why you put Spartans for newbie? I think they are more difficult to play with compare to Believers.
Aredhran	posted 06-21-99 10:54 AM ET Alex, I think there should also be risks for people who triple-post Aredhran
symen	posted 06-23-99 11:04 AM ET I agree with Aredhran on this one....how the hell do you triple post alex?
MCinBigD	posted 06-23-99 01:54 PM ET AlexDePol, Having not yet had the pleasure of playing a multiplayer game, could you not pull the same "I'll pretend to be your friend" scam on a human player? Would not the outcome be the same? MC
Aredhran	posted 06-24-99 03:22 AM ET Oh, absolutely ! And it's even more devious, since you cannot say of a human opponent, "Geez, he's Morgan, I have green economy so he's going to turn against me sooner or later". There will be no warning whatsoever (And that's what makes it good) Aredhran