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Author Topic:   Survey - how long do MP games run

Dhengis Kim posted 06-07-99 01:50 PM ET
Having just had my eyes opened by being wiped out around 2230 when air tech and PBs got developed first by my opponent, after having felt the game was well in control up to this point. I can of course see that it is rather naive to just build up and allow your opponent to get these techs and that the most effective of course must be to move in and cripple your opponent when you have the chance to ensure he never gets a chance to move ahead.
I have one question to ask though because it seems to me that in this way most games will have been effectively decided quite early in the game - long before any of the advanced techs starts getting developed.
It also seems, it will not be much fun and that the strategy will mainly be reduced to getting good starting positions - locating your opponent and trying to launch a surprise attack early on while he is still weak and then its pretty much end of game.
Is this how it is or do you have longer games and if so is it because of some agreement to not attack each other or how does it come about?
jimmytrick posted 06-07-99 03:06 PM ET
Isn't there a way to disable missles in Alpha.txt?
I think this is going to be a big problem in the future. Clearly the folks at Firaxis needed a lot more time to playtest the game before it was released. Lots of things are out of kilter.
I think all MP should ban use of PB against human factions in some way. Else it will just be a race to genocide....
jimmytrick posted 06-07-99 03:08 PM ET
I am sure that the person who did this to you will just change their alias, otherwise they would be an early target henceforth.
BTW, was this a blind tech game?
jimmytrick posted 06-07-99 03:11 PM ET
Just one more to make it a triple post.
Why didn't Firaxis set up the tech tree so that ODP came first instead of sky labs. Would this have not balanced the game better?
cousLee posted 06-07-99 03:52 PM ET
jimmytrick, first you don't want defensive units. Now, you don't want missles? What the he| | kind of units DO you want? Come on, Mindworms are not all that.
When you figure it out, let us know ya crybaby.
(Asbestos suit on)
JAMstillAM posted 06-07-99 04:01 PM ET
cousLee,
jimmytrick does have one point, though. Word will get out about who will first strike with PB's. Not that there is any better way to die, but there is the tremendous emotional/psychological trauma inflicted on the recipient (yes I know, it's only a game, but some WILL take it very personally) that is not there when your troops are being ripped to shreds by say...Gatling foils. You would agree on that wouldn't you, cousLee?
JAMiAM
Goobmeister posted 06-07-99 06:17 PM ET
Though on the other hand JAM, wouldn't you say that it would be easier to admit to one's peers that you were blasted by this A'holes PB's than to say "Ah, yea, um, his Gatling Skimships were ripping me a new one"
I mean the latter is quite embarrassing.
Goob
Mongoose posted 06-07-99 09:07 PM ET
In the final analysis, dead is dead, lost is lost.
jimmytrick posted 06-07-99 09:29 PM ET
General cousLee,
First of all, the Lt. Col. jtrick, First Warrior of Planet, abhors defensive thinking of any sort. Please understand, however, that the good Col. jtrick is only a charactor in a floating taco PBEM game.
He was born out of the frustration of his Creator (me). Frustration that comes from playing a game wherein only the most agressive and brutal tactics are rewarded.
If fact, I am the sort that would much rather have the option of building the immovable object, instead of only the irresistable force.
I would be extremely pissed if I spent months and months building a PBEM empire only to see it reduced to rubble in a mere few turns. Heck, not if, but when, cause I know its going to happen.
The game, IMHO, should be balanced so that for each action, there can be a counter.
jimmytrick
(busy building a missle probe to be deployed in the General's rear)

cousLee posted 06-07-99 11:22 PM ET
I am shocked, I was expecting a good torching from jimmytrick. I am also supprized by the responces posted.
Why the hell wouldn't you use a PB on human player? It's just another unit. I don't like the PB unit "other" reasons. But if I had one in MP, you can bet your arse I'm gonna use it. Hell, one could make the same argument about Mindworms (should be an atrocity). I can do the same damage A PB can without using PB, makes it more slow and painfull, but is do able.
If you ever get to the point in a game, that you have PB's and I don't, I am not gonna worry and neither should you. Use em, I don't care.
Look at it this way, if YOU let your opponent become nuclear capable, you deserve to get FABOOMED.
Rasputine posted 06-08-99 12:40 AM ET
Yes, it's just a game...but Alpha is not build upon fantasy, it is based on Human's society and ideology. So, I try to play according to my convictions,i.e., no atrocities, PB's etc...
That doesn't mean i don't build PB's, simply that i don't intend to use them...With some diplomacy, I believe you can control your PB's 'freak' opponent. See it as a cold war thing...
The best thing, IMHO, is to keep an eye on opponent's city production...if you see he is getting into Nuclear warfare, better react and block his intentions.
Anyway, you are free to play as you want, as far you respect the game rules, so...not much to do about it.
Rasputine
AlexDePol posted 06-08-99 01:03 AM ET
I think there is one aspect of multiplayer game which can be used to balance out the threat of missile and PB warfare its called MISSINFORMATION and PROPAGANDA.
This however works only with human players of course. Sure u can get some indication of another player's power by refering to dominance graphs and other stats provided by SMAC but it won't be until u actually commit yourself to attact other human player that you will find out exactly what that person have it his/her arsenal.
By using diplomatic skills u can spread rumours and built false muths about other or your factions. It's down to who's got a better nerve situation.
Just look at me and jimmytrick territorial dispute. We pushed and provoked each other for a while but none of us would pull the trigger. This is what i call a healthy stand-off. It makes for interesting politics in the game.
Let's say jimmytrick has got PB's and he drops a couple on me. By that time I would have a reasonable sized empire and if smart contingency plans in place. I might have an army of drop units on standbay ready to take over Hive bases after wiping its defences with a barrage of conventional missiles.
Sure if he drops 10 PB on me in one turn then I am history, but that's up to me to prevent him from building an arsenal of PB.
So guess what I am trying to say is that It would not personally bother me if PBed. Got to make sure I am ready for it.
Any thoughts on that gentlemen?
symen posted 06-08-99 02:33 AM ET
If you've got it flaunt it....
BTW I personally would feel no remorse to PB anyones ass.....
El Presidente` Simon - The Evil Empire
colbru posted 06-08-99 05:06 AM ET
Hi
I'm the BAD guy that Dhengis Kim is refering to.
I'must admit that I felt a strong remorse to launch that single PB. I truely believe that Kim was going for a "none conquest" victory.
And he was really going well... I would also like to win a game by other means than destructing my neighbors. But the name of the game is to win.
I think that some game rules must be changed to prevent games to end so early.
Some will say that that defend pods must be available before the PB. But others will reply that this is not realistic because in the real world it goes the other way around.
Here are my suggestions how to solve this problem in a future patch.
When someone commits a atrocity to a faction. The faction that has been attacked should get double energy, food and mineral output for the many turns to come. I think this would reflect real world behaviour becaus the population will be so mad that the will work much more to make the other one pay back. With this rule I would not have attacked...
If someone is being attacked by PB there should be a early warning system that let him now about the attack so he can launch a counter attack with his PB... as it works in the real world this would sure prevent an attack....

colbru
Dhengis Kim posted 06-08-99 07:00 AM ET
Thanks for all the comments. However noone has answered my first question. How long do your MP games run?
Is it so that if you are not wiped out before, it happens once missiles enter the game or do they go longer and if so is it because both sides agree not to use them?
My game here is ending soon and were in 2147. From the lesson I have learned I fear that this will be my longest ever MP game, unless someone wants to play a game where they are so much behind that they are no threat and you can let them go on to the end. This doesn't sound like much fun though.
Also any input on whether it works better for a long game if you are 3 or 4 rather than two would be welcome.
Point is for the game to be interesting of course you have to play your chance but it would be a pity if it turns out the only real winning tactic is something like an early red alert style tank rush. SMAC has so much more potential.
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Author	Topic: Survey - how long do MP games run
Dhengis Kim	posted 06-07-99 01:50 PM ET Having just had my eyes opened by being wiped out around 2230 when air tech and PBs got developed first by my opponent, after having felt the game was well in control up to this point. I can of course see that it is rather naive to just build up and allow your opponent to get these techs and that the most effective of course must be to move in and cripple your opponent when you have the chance to ensure he never gets a chance to move ahead. I have one question to ask though because it seems to me that in this way most games will have been effectively decided quite early in the game - long before any of the advanced techs starts getting developed. It also seems, it will not be much fun and that the strategy will mainly be reduced to getting good starting positions - locating your opponent and trying to launch a surprise attack early on while he is still weak and then its pretty much end of game. Is this how it is or do you have longer games and if so is it because of some agreement to not attack each other or how does it come about?
jimmytrick	posted 06-07-99 03:06 PM ET Isn't there a way to disable missles in Alpha.txt? I think this is going to be a big problem in the future. Clearly the folks at Firaxis needed a lot more time to playtest the game before it was released. Lots of things are out of kilter. I think all MP should ban use of PB against human factions in some way. Else it will just be a race to genocide....
jimmytrick	posted 06-07-99 03:08 PM ET I am sure that the person who did this to you will just change their alias, otherwise they would be an early target henceforth. BTW, was this a blind tech game?
jimmytrick	posted 06-07-99 03:11 PM ET Just one more to make it a triple post. Why didn't Firaxis set up the tech tree so that ODP came first instead of sky labs. Would this have not balanced the game better?
cousLee	posted 06-07-99 03:52 PM ET jimmytrick, first you don't want defensive units. Now, you don't want missles? What the he\| \| kind of units DO you want? Come on, Mindworms are not all that. When you figure it out, let us know ya crybaby. (Asbestos suit on)
JAMstillAM	posted 06-07-99 04:01 PM ET cousLee, jimmytrick does have one point, though. Word will get out about who will first strike with PB's. Not that there is any better way to die, but there is the tremendous emotional/psychological trauma inflicted on the recipient (yes I know, it's only a game, but some WILL take it very personally) that is not there when your troops are being ripped to shreds by say...Gatling foils. You would agree on that wouldn't you, cousLee? JAMiAM
Goobmeister	posted 06-07-99 06:17 PM ET Though on the other hand JAM, wouldn't you say that it would be easier to admit to one's peers that you were blasted by this A'holes PB's than to say "Ah, yea, um, his Gatling Skimships were ripping me a new one" I mean the latter is quite embarrassing. Goob
Mongoose	posted 06-07-99 09:07 PM ET In the final analysis, dead is dead, lost is lost.
jimmytrick	posted 06-07-99 09:29 PM ET General cousLee, First of all, the Lt. Col. jtrick, First Warrior of Planet, abhors defensive thinking of any sort. Please understand, however, that the good Col. jtrick is only a charactor in a floating taco PBEM game. He was born out of the frustration of his Creator (me). Frustration that comes from playing a game wherein only the most agressive and brutal tactics are rewarded. If fact, I am the sort that would much rather have the option of building the immovable object, instead of only the irresistable force. I would be extremely pissed if I spent months and months building a PBEM empire only to see it reduced to rubble in a mere few turns. Heck, not if, but when, cause I know its going to happen. The game, IMHO, should be balanced so that for each action, there can be a counter. jimmytrick (busy building a missle probe to be deployed in the General's rear)
cousLee	posted 06-07-99 11:22 PM ET I am shocked, I was expecting a good torching from jimmytrick. I am also supprized by the responces posted. Why the hell wouldn't you use a PB on human player? It's just another unit. I don't like the PB unit "other" reasons. But if I had one in MP, you can bet your arse I'm gonna use it. Hell, one could make the same argument about Mindworms (should be an atrocity). I can do the same damage A PB can without using PB, makes it more slow and painfull, but is do able. If you ever get to the point in a game, that you have PB's and I don't, I am not gonna worry and neither should you. Use em, I don't care. Look at it this way, if YOU let your opponent become nuclear capable, you deserve to get FABOOMED.
Rasputine	posted 06-08-99 12:40 AM ET Yes, it's just a game...but Alpha is not build upon fantasy, it is based on Human's society and ideology. So, I try to play according to my convictions,i.e., no atrocities, PB's etc... That doesn't mean i don't build PB's, simply that i don't intend to use them...With some diplomacy, I believe you can control your PB's 'freak' opponent. See it as a cold war thing... The best thing, IMHO, is to keep an eye on opponent's city production...if you see he is getting into Nuclear warfare, better react and block his intentions. Anyway, you are free to play as you want, as far you respect the game rules, so...not much to do about it. Rasputine
AlexDePol	posted 06-08-99 01:03 AM ET I think there is one aspect of multiplayer game which can be used to balance out the threat of missile and PB warfare its called MISSINFORMATION and PROPAGANDA. This however works only with human players of course. Sure u can get some indication of another player's power by refering to dominance graphs and other stats provided by SMAC but it won't be until u actually commit yourself to attact other human player that you will find out exactly what that person have it his/her arsenal. By using diplomatic skills u can spread rumours and built false muths about other or your factions. It's down to who's got a better nerve situation. Just look at me and jimmytrick territorial dispute. We pushed and provoked each other for a while but none of us would pull the trigger. This is what i call a healthy stand-off. It makes for interesting politics in the game. Let's say jimmytrick has got PB's and he drops a couple on me. By that time I would have a reasonable sized empire and if smart contingency plans in place. I might have an army of drop units on standbay ready to take over Hive bases after wiping its defences with a barrage of conventional missiles. Sure if he drops 10 PB on me in one turn then I am history, but that's up to me to prevent him from building an arsenal of PB. So guess what I am trying to say is that It would not personally bother me if PBed. Got to make sure I am ready for it. Any thoughts on that gentlemen?
symen	posted 06-08-99 02:33 AM ET If you've got it flaunt it.... BTW I personally would feel no remorse to PB anyones ass..... El Presidente` Simon - The Evil Empire
colbru	posted 06-08-99 05:06 AM ET Hi I'm the BAD guy that Dhengis Kim is refering to. I'must admit that I felt a strong remorse to launch that single PB. I truely believe that Kim was going for a "none conquest" victory. And he was really going well... I would also like to win a game by other means than destructing my neighbors. But the name of the game is to win. I think that some game rules must be changed to prevent games to end so early. Some will say that that defend pods must be available before the PB. But others will reply that this is not realistic because in the real world it goes the other way around. Here are my suggestions how to solve this problem in a future patch. When someone commits a atrocity to a faction. The faction that has been attacked should get double energy, food and mineral output for the many turns to come. I think this would reflect real world behaviour becaus the population will be so mad that the will work much more to make the other one pay back. With this rule I would not have attacked... If someone is being attacked by PB there should be a early warning system that let him now about the attack so he can launch a counter attack with his PB... as it works in the real world this would sure prevent an attack.... colbru
Dhengis Kim	posted 06-08-99 07:00 AM ET Thanks for all the comments. However noone has answered my first question. How long do your MP games run? Is it so that if you are not wiped out before, it happens once missiles enter the game or do they go longer and if so is it because both sides agree not to use them? My game here is ending soon and were in 2147. From the lesson I have learned I fear that this will be my longest ever MP game, unless someone wants to play a game where they are so much behind that they are no threat and you can let them go on to the end. This doesn't sound like much fun though. Also any input on whether it works better for a long game if you are 3 or 4 rather than two would be welcome. Point is for the game to be interesting of course you have to play your chance but it would be a pity if it turns out the only real winning tactic is something like an early red alert style tank rush. SMAC has so much more potential.