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Author Topic:   Re-restimating the performance of Unity's drive
Spoe posted 12-21-98 11:38 PM ET   Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe   Click Here to Email Spoe  
Just thought I'd try to bring this one back up, since it's a(IMHO) fun topic, and seemed to die of neglect about the time of the US/UK attacks last week. I'll start out with a couple of my posts from the old thread.

----

Ok, here we go, based on my assumption from above of a 6 yr accel time and a 20 yr decel:

d = 4.3 lyr (distance to AC)
ta = 6 yr (time of accel)
tc = 14 yr (time of coast)
td = 20 yr (time of decel)
aa = acceleration during accel phase
ad = acceleration during decel phase

First, relate aa to ad:

aa * ta = -ad * td

ad = -3 / 10 * aa [1]

Then set up the trip:

d = (0.5 * aa * ta**2) + (aa * ta * tc) + (aa * td + 0.5 * ad * td**2) [2]

Now substitute [1] into [2]:

d = (0.5 * aa * ta**2) + (aa * ta * tc) + (aa * td - 0.15 * aa * td**2)

Substitute in the known values and simplify:

4.3 lyr = 162 yr**2 * aa

Solve for aa:

aa = 0.02654 lyr/yr**2

Then for ad:

ad = -0.007963 lyr/yr**2

This give a coasting speed of:

0.02654 lyr/yr**2 * 6 yr = 0.1593 lyr/yr = 0.1593 c

Now, let's check this against decel:

-0.007963 lyr/yr**2 * 20 yr = -0.1593 c

Checks out.

----

Oh, and I meant to add, aa = 0.2521 m/s**2 or approximately 0.026 g. ad is even more negligable at 0.0077 g. Not very much, or even near the maximum performance of the engines(which, IIRC, was figured to be at least 0.1g, given information in the early episodes).

Spoe posted 12-21-98 11:40 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
Ok, physics heads -- What sort of efficiency do you expect, etc., etc., etc.
Kurn posted 12-22-98 05:26 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kurn  Click Here to Email Kurn     
Spoe, I and my meager knowledge of grade 11 Dynamics bow to your infinate Phgysics wisdom. Man, you should be running this place by now.
OmniDude posted 12-22-98 09:37 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for OmniDude  Click Here to Email OmniDude     
The really cool thing is that it all sounds managable. 40 years is possible to handle, even w/o cryosleep. The speeds and accelerations are tolerable.

Now somebody add a (declining) mass and fuel consumption estimate to the equation and let's hear (another) somebody with the appropriate knowledge put a biosphere on the ship. Where are we, technology-wise, today in this area?

Nayrium posted 12-22-98 03:55 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Nayrium  Click Here to Email Nayrium     
Alright, I'll give a crack at the declining mass problem.

First, we'll start with Newton's famous Force equation:
F = Force m = Mass a = Accel

F = m * a [1]

Equation [1] as it is written holds only true when all are constant. Assuming that they want to maintain a constant force by the engine, this means the acceleration and mass changes with time, or

F = dm * da [2]

where
dm = Differential of mass
da = Differential of acceleration

Rearranaging [2] we can get:

da = F / dm [3]

Now, if we integrate both sides of [3], and evaulate from starting mass to ending mass, we get:

a = F * [ln(mi) - ln (mf)] [4]

Where, mi: Inital Mass mf: Final Mass

Rearranging [4] by Law of Logs we can get:

a = F * ln(mi/mf) [5]

Without knowing the thrust (or Force) of the Unity or the ratio of starting mass to ending mass, I cannot continue the Formula. Anyone else?

RobKid posted 12-22-98 07:20 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
Not to upset you Nayrium (and the calculus was good), but the assumption I thought was constant acceleration, not constant force. Thus, the force would be variant.

Secondly, how do you get from F=m*a to F=dm*da? That would imply that m*a=dm*da, which doesn't make sense.

You can get:

dF
-- = dm * a
dm

or

dF
-- = m * da
da

The first equation would seem to be more useful, since the assumption to this point has been constant acceleration. If we're assuming constant force, we get:

da F
-- = ---
dm dm

Also, integrating any of these equations just gets us back to F=ma.

I don't really know exactly how an Ion drive would work (which is what was described in episode 29 I think). For a standard chemical propulsion drive, the equation would be something like (IIRC):

dm
vgas * -- = m * a
dt

where vgas is the velocity of the gas going out the back. Thus getting:

a 1
---- dt = --- dm
vgas m

which integrates to:

at
---- = ln(m)
vgas

What exactly this means, I'm not sure.

Anyone, feel free to correct me (cause it's been a long time since I've really done this)

RobKid posted 12-22-98 07:24 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
Goodness, that's a mess. Let me try again:

Here are the formulas reworked. Hopefully you can figure out which is which (they'll be in the same order).

1) (dF/dm) = dm * a
2) (dF/da) = m * da
3) (da/dm) = (F/dm)
4) vgas * (dm/dt) = m * a
5) (a/vgas)*dt = (1/m)dm
6) (at/vgas) = ln(m)

Hope that's easier to read.

Nayrium posted 12-23-98 12:17 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Nayrium  Click Here to Email Nayrium     
Yes Robokid I must agree more with your work, I'm working mostly from memory on my rocket physics. I'm on vacation away from all my physics notes and books. Once I get home I could do alot better. Although, this was the type of problem I got 1/5 on for my physics quiz.
Slaine posted 12-23-98 01:43 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Slaine  Click Here to Email Slaine     
I have no knowlege of what you type of,

However, I do question things:

Would you not need one heck of a fuel source to get the volocity needed?

Given our current, even experiemental fuels, would your formula's not cascade to the added weights of the fuels?


OmniDude posted 12-23-98 10:03 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for OmniDude  Click Here to Email OmniDude     
Service message to those new here: this thread is a revival of a awesome thread on the old forum, thats why it's called Re-estimating...
I seem to remember that in the old thread it was assumed that fusion power was utilized with a efficiency of somewhere between 5 and 15%.
Another figure was a ship weight of 100.000 tonnes excl. fuel.
Now, how much (pure?) heavy water would be needed to provide fuel for the trip and is 100.000 tonnes a figure that makes any sense given what we know from the story?

OmniDude
I have a thousand questions for every answer and sometimes quite a few answers for every question.

Spoe posted 12-23-98 03:47 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
Slaine:
Yes. My formulas were just a rough starting point, to give an idea of the accelerations needed.

If you look at equations from RobKid you'll see the biginnings of taking the mass of expended fuel into account.

I'll try to look at this a little deeper after xmass.

Zorloc posted 12-23-98 06:42 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zorloc  Click Here to Email Zorloc     
It's too bad that the Unity does not reach relativistic speads...

These formula would be much worse having to account for the increasing mass as the Unity approches the spead of light...

RobKid posted 12-24-98 03:04 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
Actually, I realized my calculations were screwed up. I equated the momentum of the gas in a chemical rocket to the force on the rocket - not equal. Oh well, I was working from memory too.

Also, I realized that this is a fusion based ion drive. The fusion equations used (H->He) would probably have a negligable mass loss compared to the mass of the ship. In a chemical rocket, the energy produced is from reordering of chemical bonds, a rather low amount of energy. In a fusion reaction, the enerby produced is from mass to energy conversion (He and the byproducts have slightly less mass than 4 H). Thus, the energy produced is taken from e=mc^2. They might not have lost more than 50g or so of mass due to the reaction. However, this produces:

e = (.050kg) * (3.0e5) ^ 2
e = (5.0e-2) * (9.0e10)
3 = 4.5e9 Joules

That's a ton of energy for very little mass loss. Even if the engine is only 20% efficient, there's probably not going to me much of a significant loss of mass relative to a 1000 ton (or more) mass ship.

Slaine posted 12-25-98 04:25 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Slaine  Click Here to Email Slaine     
Maybe you took this into account, if so please review.

What about the weight of the fuel needed?(and how much is needed.) both to start and to stop. That to me, seems like the most hindering factor.

harel posted 12-27-98 10:14 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for harel  Click Here to Email harel     
To Zorlok and Robkid.

Everyone ( or maybe I am not reading the formulas right ), are mistaking the acceleration and max speed computing.
When a ship reachs sub-light speeds, the rate of speed/mass is different.
For example, When a ship is traveling at 0.5 C, HALF of all the energy of acceleration is applied to increasing the speed, while the other half increase the mass and time continium warp ( see AKA einstian ).
Meaning, that one unit of energy, as the ship reachs the light speed, will pass LESS REAL speed to the ship.
Lets say the speed of light is 10.
You start accelerating:
1 unit = 1 speed.
2 unit = 1 + 1-1/10 = 1.9
3 unit = 1.9 + 1-1.9/10 = 2.71
4 unit = 2.71 + 1-2.71/10 = 3.439
5 unit = 3.439 + 1-3.439/10 = 4.0951
6 unit = 4.0951 + 1-4.0951/10 = 4.68559
And so on.
You can see, that in order to get to half the speed of light, you near about 6.5 units of energy, not 5 as you may think.
The formula is thus:
X ( number of units ):
X - [ 9/10 sqrX - ( 10-x ) ]
when 9/10 is 9/10 squared X times
( 9/10 * 9/10 * 9/10 etc... )

One can see, that even in low realvastic speeds, like 0.2-0.3 C, still some energy lost exist, and must be put in.

ALSO. to Robkid. Fusion engines DO NOT transfer the entire mass of the hydrogen to energy. Nay, in hydrogen to helium transfer, when 4 hydrogen turn into 1 helium ( 4 protons + 4 electrons into 2 proton / 2 neutron ( 4 neuclons ), 2 electrons ), there is a SLIGHT mass lost, equal to about 1/270 of the mass of the hydrogen. Meaning, those 50g are doubled by 270 factor. AND, fusion engines will be about 5-10 effiecent, while the ion drives ( Xeon plasma bursts ), will be about 35% effiecent, meaning that about 2 tons per 1000 tons of hydrogen will be needed ( in optimum case ). Still need to be added up.

RobKid posted 12-29-98 10:16 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
I meant exactly what you said about mass loss. Yes it is only a portion of the original hydrogen mass. The mass loss I was talking about was the difference between the products (helium plus byproducts) and the starting items (hydrogen/deterium). Thus, only 1/270th of the "fuel" will ever be lost for aceleration purposes, and I felt that 1/270th of only a portion (maybe 1/10th to 1/20th) of the total mass of the ship was probably not significant enough to worry about the effect on acceleration. I'm guessing it wouldn't affect acceleration until at least the 3rd or 4th significant digit, and since we're using so many approximations, I just don't think it adds much to the discussion.

BTW, I'm interested in where you got your efficiency estimates for the various drives.

Lazarus posted 12-30-98 10:31 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Lazarus  Click Here to Email Lazarus     
A useful formula:

m_i = m_0 exp(v / (g * Isp))

where

m_i is initial mass
m_0 is empty mass
v is total delta-v
g is the acceleration of gravity (9.81 m/s/s)
Isp is the specific impulse in seconds

The Isp of a rocket represents its efficiency. A hydrogen/oxygen rocket gets an Isp of around 450 seconds. Let's estimate that the Unity's fusion rocket gets 10,000 seconds. Then to accelerate to v = 0.1593 c, we get:

m_i = m_0 * exp(48,000,000 / (10,000 * 9.81))

= m_0 * exp(489.3)

= m_0 * (3.15 * 10^212)

Does this still sound feasible to anyone? Plug in larger values for Isp and see how it looks then. Note: Isp in excess of 100,000 or so is highly unlikely within a century. The Unity is not realistic. But that shouldn't ruin the gaming experience.

Spoe posted 12-30-98 07:15 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
It might be interesting to note that existing literature on Project Orion that a scaled down version designed to be launched by Saturn Vs was estimated to have a specific impulse of 1800 to 2500 seconds(this was limited by the diameter of Saturn V). This version was for a 100 ton vessel and a round trip to Mars in around 4 months.
A more ambitious, but feasible, design for a 10000 ton ship had an estimated specific impulse of 10000 to 1 million seconds. And remember, this is using 1950s and 1960s technology. As we learn more about how to control nuclear explosions this efficiency could rise.
Wen_Amon posted 12-31-98 03:12 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Wen_Amon  Click Here to Email Wen_Amon     
Wait a sec spoe, are you saying that in 1960 they had a theory that stated a round trip to mars would be only 4 months. Correct me if Im wrong, but isn the shortest time possible for us 8 months?
Lazarus posted 12-31-98 11:43 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Lazarus  Click Here to Email Lazarus     
Spoe: Note, however, that Project Orion never actually *produced* a 100,000 ton ship with an Isp of a million seconds. Ambitious plans are not the same as the actual steel. And there's a vast difference between 10,000 seconds and a million.

Also note that the maximum possible Isp is only 30.6 million seconds. Derivation: g * Isp = exhaust velocity. The maximum possible exhaust velocity is c, so max Isp = c/g.

If we could get such an Isp, then we get into realistic mass ratios for the Unity. At an exhaust velocity of c, the mass ratio is only 1.17, so 14.8% of the ship is fuel. A more realistic exhaust velocity of 0.1c, however, gives a mass ratio of 4.95 (79.8% of ship mass if fuel). Anything less quickly gets into the impossible range again. Current engineering cannot give realistic mass ratios greater than about 9, but even assuming a mass ratio of 100 our exhaust velocity would need to exceed 0.035c. That's about where your most ambitious Orion engine example lives (1 million seconds is about 0.0327c), but it still means a million tons of fuel for each 10,000 tons of other mass. That other mass includes fuel tanks, living quarters, structural members, payload, etc.

Also note that relativistic effects should really be taken into account here and make conditions WORSE, not better, because the rocket equation is more pessimistic than the strictly Newtonian version I gave.

So I'm going to stick to my guns when I say that the Unity is unrealistic if it's a rocket. If it's something other than a rocket, then it changes the whole equation. For example, if it's a Bussard ramjet and the major problems associated with those can be solved, then mass ratio is not a problem because the major portion of the fuel is picked up along the way. Or a solar-laser-powered lightsail could probably do it, but it would depend on a really dependable laser back Earthside, which wouldn't fit the SMAC storyline. That also wouldn't provide the drama at the approach to Planet as the drive failed.

Wen_Amon: The Earth-Mars trip is only constrained if a Hohmann transfer orbit - the slowest, most fuel-efficient type - is used. This orbit involves two burns: the first changes the orbit from Earth orbit to a doubly-tangential elliptical orbit that just touches Mars orbit; the second boosts the ship into Mars orbit at aphelion. The length of such a trip is exactly half the average of the orbits of the source and destination planets. So for Earth-Mars, you take the average of 1 year and about 1.6 years to get 1.3 years, then half of that is 0.65 years or 7.8 months.

But as long as you're willing to spend the fuel, you can reduce this time about as much as you want. A constant-boost ship powered at 0.01g could make it in (very roughly) 1.5-2 months, one way. This trip requires a delta-v of about 490 km/s, so an Isp of 2500 seconds results in a mass ratio of about half a BILLION. An Isp of 25,000 seconds could cut this to 7.4, a realistic number. Given a high enough Isp and mass ratio, though, you could make the trip to Mars in a day. The Hohmann transfer orbit travel time is irrelevant here.

Spoe posted 12-31-98 05:30 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
I never said they produced one. However, I think it fairly safe to assume that they would have gotten past a 10 ks Isp. Why? Their calculations were based on standard atom bomb designs of the time. Why is this important? Because now we are learning how to make shaped atom bombs, control what form energy is released(e.g. the neutron bomb), etc. This greater control over the bombs could easily translate into increased efficiencies. Remember, early on much was placed on getting a spherically symmetrical explosion, which lowers efficiency drastically in an Orion type ship.

Yes, there is a bit of a difference between 10000 and 1 million. 2 orders of magnitude, to be exact. What of it? Since the Wright Bros.(94 years or so) the speed of aircraft has grown by an equivalent order of magnitude.

Khan Singh posted 01-01-99 11:46 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan Singh  Click Here to Email Khan Singh     
I really don't think that a fission powered interstellar craft the size of Unity is possible. There simply isn't enough binding energy in the transuranic elements to provide the power you need. Even allocating 50k tonnes of the Unity's 100k (rest) mass wouldn't provide the needed energy, even with 100% efficiency of conversion and 40% efficiency of propulsive accelleration. Only allocating the highest percentages of mass (ie 99% of total spacecraft mass) could be expected to provide the energy required. So Unity must be fusion or antimatter powered.
Now, with regard to fusion, the much lighter mass per joule of binding energy of deutrium/tritium/lithium gives a far nicer looking equation. Although there's really no point in trying to calculate a totally unknown flight regime, I think you might get by with a 60% mass of fuel for the 35% efficient plasma drive postulated above.
Of course, a lot of mass will go into engines, shielding, and structure, but that still leaves plenty of room for thousands of little pods to sprinkle all over the planet.
sbj posted 01-02-99 06:11 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for sbj  Click Here to Email sbj     
So you want to get to Alpha Centuri in 40 years. D=4.3 lyr so set c=1. I noticed that people didn't seem to factor in relativity, even though it's not insignificant (even though not a huge factor, it must be taken into account since even a 1% difference in needed fuel when dealing with a large ship can make the difference between success and failure).

First, presume that you hit that velocity immediately.

Then a constant speed is v=4.3/40=.1075c

Time increases the calendar time to 40.23 years relative to an observer on earth (not that there are any more). So our calendars will be a bit off when we land unless we factor this in. Not only this but your relativistic mass and required accerlating force increases.

In reality (figuratively speaking) you have to accelerate and decelerate as well. This presents a problem as you then need a higher top speed, and the effects of relativity increase hyperbolically with top speed. If the top speed is .1075c then relativistic mass is about 0.6% higher than rest mass. But if the top speed becomes .15c then relative mass is 1.1% higher than rest mass and a top speed of .2c implies a 2.1% higher mass. Guessing at the nature of acceleration is real speculative at this point, but suppose .2c turns out to be the top speed needed due to the time of accelerating and decelerating. But this is the problem. If you have a 100,000 ton ship and you the relativistic mass increases by 2%, then you need the energy equivalent of 2,000 tons of mass due to the conservation of matter-energy! I'll return to this later.

You need a measure of force to accelerate and decelerate the ship. Force is the time rate of change of relativistic momentum (Newton's second law corrected for relativity) or F=dp/dt=m(dv/dt)+v(dm/dt) which becomes F=ma for constant (rest) mass. Under relativity, accelerated mass is not constant and Force becomes the time rate of change of relativistic momentum (here mass changes relativistically without regard to fuel consumption, etc.)

But part of this accererating force is merely increasing the relativistic mass of the ship (this means that deceleration takes less time than acceleration, especially taking into account fuel consumption), so you now need a different measure of efficiency.

You can get force from the rate of change in total work: dW/dt=F.v=.5m(dv^2/dt)+v^2(dm/dt) and this is just c^2(dm/dt) (you can just smell E=mc^2 here). The % of work done that increases the mass as opposed to actual acceleration is [1/(1-v^2/c^2)^.5-1] so you lose 1-2% (or more) of your engine power (in terms of actual movement) before you even worry about the efficiency of your engine. Your actual engine power going to increasing relativistic mass is m_0c^2[1/(1-v^2/c^2)^.5-1]. Not a small problem!! As mentioned above, a 100,000 ton ship traveling at .2c requires energy of 2,062 tons of matter. Suppose the fuel content of the ship is 25% or 25,000 tons. Then you need 8% efficiency to immediately reach top speed and coast the rest of the way without decelerating (actually less since you'll have less matter by then). So what kind of fusion reactor are we talking about? It has to be small and extremely efficient (since acceleration is relatively slow, we may need 20+% efficiency). We don't even have one that's big and inefficient yet. Well, here's to progress for the new year.

My personal opinion is that fusion power isn't sufficient to get to Alpha Centauri safely in 40 years but hey, it's just a game.

Mortis posted 01-04-99 05:56 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Mortis  Click Here to Email Mortis     
I know this sounds like a newbie question, but why would you need to decel of 20years while accel for only 6?
RobKid posted 01-04-99 04:23 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
Mortis, you've pegged one of my biggest questions, as I had initially assumed that a flight plan of half acceleration and half deceleration would be used, thus reducing the total impulse needed by the drive at any point. Does anyone know if the 6/14/20 flight plan is more efficient (since there seem to be people here who know a heck of a lot more about rocket physics than me )?
Warangel posted 01-05-99 01:51 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Warangel  Click Here to Email Warangel     
I don't think that it would be exactly 50/50 for accel and decel Robkid. Remember, it's going to take a while for a ship the size of Unity to flip over and prepare for decel. The speed of the flip, or twist depending on which axis your looking from, wouldn't have to be too long, since you don't have to worry about it being broken in two from friction. I'd figure it would probably only take 1% tops of the total travel time.

Also, I think it said in the story waht type of engine it uses, too bad I'm to lazy to look it up . It could be fusion, since there is a fusion prototype at MIT.

One more thing, had anyone ever thought about what effect the asteroid hit had on its speed? You figure it had to rip off at least a couple 100 tons, unbalenced the ship on one side or another. Now, if the unity on has one exaust port where it's thrust comes out of, then its not a problem. However, if it has more then one exaust port and they are not aligned with the center of the ship, then its possible that the ship could go off course.

Mortis posted 01-05-99 06:52 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Mortis  Click Here to Email Mortis     
Assuming that the Unity is the same ship that you built in Civ then it has 8 exauste nossels.
Lazarus posted 01-05-99 08:44 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Lazarus  Click Here to Email Lazarus     
Interesting question, actually. Unfortunately, there are three different answers depending on your assumptions.

In all cases I use the following symbols: x is the distance traveled; a_max is the maximum acceleration; a is any other acceleration; T is total time-of-flight; t_b is boost time; t_c is coast time; dv is total delta-v.

[Newtonian dynamics, no resistance from interstellar atoms assumption] In this simplest case, we do the problem two ways: first, assuming constant acceleration to midpoint, flip over and decelerate to target; second, assume maximum acceleration to cruise, coast, flip over and maximum decelerate to target. I've done the math, but I'll leave it out and just post the conclusions.

Case 1: T1 = 4x/dv
Case 2: T2 = 2x/dv + dv/a_max

It so happens that in all cases, T1 > T2 unless dv^2 = 2 x a_max, which is precisely the condition that guarantees that maximum acceleration is required in case 1. We may conclude from this that it's always better to accelerate at maximum, coast, and then decelerate at maximum. Thus a 6/14/20 plan is less efficient than it could be, but better than doing a slower acceleration boost.

[Newtonian dynamics, taking interstellar atomic drag into account assumption] The mathematics above is correct, but leaves out a very important factor: the drag of interstellar atoms on Unity. Drag typically is proportional to the square of velocity, so higher speeds would create more drag faster. Under these conditions, it might make more sense to accelerate more slowly. I haven't done any computations yet, though, so I can't draw any firm conclusions.

[Relativistic dynamics assumption] Finally, we should really take into account the effects of relativity. It's not sufficient to compute the gamma correction to mass and apply this factor to total acceleration, as one poster did above; after all, fuel mass is increased proportionally. It is the time dilation effect which dominates, as well as the slight curvature of spacetime caused by constant acceleration (although I suspect, again, that at these low accelerations, the time dilation effect due to velocity will dominate). I haven't done this computation either, but from a shipboard perspective it's almost certainly better (quicker) to accelerate fast, coast, and decelerate fast. From the ship's perspective, lengths in the direction of motion are reduced by the gamma factor, so the quicker the ship can reach maximum speed, the shorter the trip. How this effect and the drag effect coexist is still a mystery, but if I ever have the gumption to work the math, I'll let y'all know.

RobKid posted 01-05-99 01:04 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
Uh, WOW.
Lazarus posted 01-05-99 05:57 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Lazarus  Click Here to Email Lazarus     
Explanation of Newtonian dynamic method with interstellar drag:

OK, this is somewhat hairy, so be forewarned. My assumptions: The journey consists of a boost to max velocity, followed by a coast, followed by a deceleration to zero velocity. We assume that the Earth and the final destination are fixed in relation to one another. In practice, this won't be the case, but at the speeds we're talking about, the difference is pretty paltry. I assume further that the force of drag is k v^2, where k is a constant. That also won't be entirely accurate, so ignore decimal places past the second and take even the second with a grain of salt. Unless I'm wildly mistaken, though, the first decimal should be OK.

A proper analysis of this would be similar to my previous one for the no-drag assumption; i.e., dv and x would be fixed, a_max would be fixed, but t_boost, t_coast, t_decel, a_boost, and a_decel would vary. We would place constraints and try to minimize the sum of the three time values.

In practice, this probably won't work. You'll see why when I present the formulae, which are a bit complex:

In all computations, I use the following constants -

a = acceleration in current phase
t = time elapsed in current phase
x0 = starting point for phase
xf = ending point for phase
v0 = starting velocity of phase
vf = final velocity at end of phase
k = drag coefficient
A = sqrt(a/k)
B = A/v0
L = sqrt(a k)
sinh(x) = (exp(x) - exp(-x))/2
cosh(x) = (exp(x) + exp(-x))/2
tanh(x) = sinh(x)/cosh(x)
T = tan(L t)

BOOST PHASE
-----------
x0 = 0
v0 = 0

vf = A tanh (L t)
xf = (1/k) cosh (L t)

COAST PHASE
-----------
x0 = xf for boost phase
v0 = vf for boost phase

vf = v0 / (1 + v0 k t)
xf = (1/k) ln(1 + v0 k t) + x0

DECEL PHASE
-----------
Here's where the hairy part comes in...

x0 = xf for coast phase
v0 = vf for coast phase

vf = (v0 - A T)/(1 + vo T/A)
xf = (v0/L) (B ln(1 + T/B) - (B/2) ln(1 + T^2)) + x0

Keep in mind that I've simplified the nasty parts using abbreviations like A, B, L, T. I'd recommend using a spreadsheet to calculate this stuff. In fact, if you did that you could use its optimizer to come up with low delta-v, low t solutions that still give xf = 4.3 ly and vf = 0 for the deceleration phase.

Just for fun, here's one example:

I ran my spreadsheet trying to approximate the numbers given in SMAC, but assuming k = 1.09e-17 m^-1. (Note: I used that k, fairly arbitrary really, because it gave a value of 0.001g at v=0.15c, the presumed max speed of Unity. The real value could be quite different from this. I'm just showing that even a small drag coefficient makes a BIG difference.)

For starters, let a_boost = 0.2523 m/s^2, t_boost = 1.8935e8 s (6 yrs), t_coast = 4.4181e8 s (14 yrs), and a_decel = 0.0328 m/s^2 (you need much less deceleration than the first post assumed, because drag helps you all the way). It turns out that t_decel here is 1.0098e9 s or about 32 yrs, for a total flight time of 52 yrs. The delta-v required for this journey is just under 81 million m/s, so to accomplish this with a mass ratio of 5:1 would require an Isp of 5 million seconds.

Now rework it using much faster accelerations and decelerations: I use t_boost = 5.0e7 s (only 19 months!), a_boost = 0.981 m/s^2, and t_coast = 1.0e9 s (a bit over 31.5 yrs). With a_decel = 0.981 m/s^2 we have t_decel = 3.227e8 s or about a year. Note that we have used the maximum acceleration of the Unity both for boost and to slow down. We've consequently shortened the travel time from 52 yrs to about 34.3 yrs, and here's the kicker... the require delta-v is lower by about 190,000 m/s!!

I found this one by accident; I'm sure further optimization could easily be done. What's the shortest time-of-flight for a given delta-v and a_max? I think you'd find that the general strategy of boost at maximum, coast, and decel at maximum works here, too.

Relativity assumption math will be posted next....

Zorloc posted 01-05-99 07:40 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zorloc  Click Here to Email Zorloc     
Although the slow accelleration, fast decel may make the quickest journey, the structural integrity of the ship should be taken into consideration when deciding the accel/decel pattern.

The flight of the Unity seems to make a lot of sence for the integrity of the ship, because the ship is most likely in the best shape at the beginning of the journey and thus better able to handle the greater forces. And after many years of travel, aging and wear the ship could be very fragile by the end of the trip.

If the Unity followed a slow accel / fast decel map (and was hit) the ship would not be able to suffer the forces placed on it's weakened structural integrity.

Warangel posted 01-05-99 11:10 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Warangel  Click Here to Email Warangel     
Brain.............overload......too....much....information............ POP!!!!
Lazarus posted 01-06-99 07:31 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Lazarus  Click Here to Email Lazarus     
Zorloc - The fastest journey is "max accel, coast, max decel", not "slow accel, max decel" as you put it. And to be sure, there may be other reasons not connected with optimization of time given delta-v and acceleration constraints to follow a particular mission profile.

But I don't know that "structural integrity" is a good one. We're talking about a maximum acceleration of 0.1g versus maybe 0.02-0.05g. Neither one is enough to put any great stress on a starship. Furthermore, the probability of actually hitting an asteroid is so remote that it would probably not enter into the calculation at all. If we were able to save 5 years of travel time at a cost of reducing the chance of success from 90% to 89.9% (and I'm exaggerating the reduction!), I don't think there'd be any question that you'd do it. Especially considering that increased travel time itself increases the risk for other reasons.

Well anyway, it's fun to wildly speculate. By the way, there's quite a lot about this subject in the book "The Starflight Handbook", by some authors that I can't remember. Amazon has it. I required read for anyone interested in realistic starflight.

Khan Singh posted 01-06-99 01:52 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan Singh  Click Here to Email Khan Singh     
Assuming, contrary to the available historical records, that Unity used an anti-matter powered ion drive, how exactly did they get from antimatter to plasma to ion drive?

If they just shot the antimatter atoms (let's say anti-lithium) into the ion engine nozzle with a large quantity of hydrogen most of the gamma rays generated by the a/m decomposition are going to escape the engine and do nothing to propel the ship. Most of the mesons will interact promptly, but so close to whatever 'injector' you use that the injector mechanism would very rapidy be destroyed.

The injector problem might be able to be solved by pre-ionizing the hydrogen propellent, then shielding the injector electo-magnetically. But then you have to suck power out of the ion engine magnetohydrodynamically to run your pre-ionizer(or tote a spare reactor along, probably a good idea anyway). And how is the anti-lithium supposed to get through the shielding? I guess if you give it enough velocity it might punch through.

I don't know if hydrogen would even have worked as a propellent. Maybe the Unity engineers used something heavier, with multiple ionization states, like boron or lithium.

But then how did they did keep the heavier ions from burning up the nozzle or even the engine itself. If you only use a little propellent, then you don't capture enough of the a/m energy, if you use a lot then your not efficient using propellent.

Khan Singh posted 01-06-99 01:53 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan Singh  Click Here to Email Khan Singh     
Assuming, contrary to the available historical records, that Unity used an anti-matter powered ion drive, how exactly did they get from antimatter to plasma to ion drive?

If they just shot the antimatter atoms (let's say anti-lithium) into the ion engine nozzle with a large quantity of hydrogen most of the gamma rays generated by the a/m decomposition are going to escape the engine and do nothing to propel the ship. Most of the mesons will interact promptly, but so close to whatever 'injector' you use that the injector mechanism would very rapidy be destroyed.

The injector problem might be able to be solved by pre-ionizing the hydrogen propellent, then shielding the injector electo-magnetically. But then you have to suck power out of the ion engine magnetohydrodynamically to run your pre-ionizer(or tote a spare reactor along, probably a good idea anyway). And how is the anti-lithium supposed to get through the shielding? I guess if you give it enough velocity it might punch through.

I don't know if hydrogen would even have worked as a propellent. Maybe the Unity engineers used something heavier, with multiple ionization states, like boron or lithium.

But then how did they did keep the heavier ions from burning up the nozzle or even the engine itself. If you only use a little propellent, then you don't capture enough of the a/m energy, if you use a lot then your not efficient using propellent.

CyberSpyder posted 01-08-99 01:44 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for CyberSpyder  Click Here to Email CyberSpyder     
Well, I hate to jump in here with pretty normal math, considering what's been going on, but has anyone bothered to put the acceleration of the starship in normal terms? According to Spoe's original post, the acceleration of the starship is .02654 lightyears per year squared. I don't want to write down all the math, but that comes out to 7962 kilometers per second, which is about 816 Gs! It's even worse if you use sbj's speed of a tenth of the speed of light. That hits 3000 Gs. Of course, he might have been saying that for a top speed, I couldn't tell from his post...
Lazarus posted 01-08-99 02:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Lazarus  Click Here to Email Lazarus     
CyberSpyder: I think your calculator may need a new battery.

.02654 ly/yr^2 (1 yr/365.25x24x3600 s)^2 =

2.665e-17 ly/s^2 (9.467e15 m/ly) =

0.2523 m/s^2 = 0.0257G

Incidentally, you equated an acceleration in ly/yr^2 (admittedly an ugly unit) to something in km/s, which is a speed. This is an indicator that something may be awry in the calculation. If you have a length/time^2 you should never end up with a length/time just by converting the units.

Spoe posted 01-08-99 09:29 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
You pump out enough gamma rays and you'll get plenty of thrust off of it, just from conservation of momentum.

The momentum of a photon is:

p = h / lambda

where
p = momentum
h = Planck's constant
lamdba = wavelength of the photon

Since, with proper shielding, etc. etc., gamma rays would only be shooting out the back, you would generate thrust(in pretty goodly amounts, as well, if they're from a M/AM reaction). Another point in favor of this system is that the exhaust velocity is c.

Khan Singh posted 01-09-99 12:36 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan Singh  Click Here to Email Khan Singh     
Of course, normally you wouldn't want to shoot the antimatter into the propellent. Just react it and use the electricity to run the ion drive. But if you wanted to suddenly accellerate the ship, as in the aproach to AC depicted in the Story, this would seem to be the only method.

Spoe, the light drive you speak off would be capable of very high speeds, but what sort of efficiency would you get at, say .1 C. Not very good, i'd say.

I guess with antimatter, efficiency isn't your first concern. But all this antimatter has to come from somewhere. Where would the Unity engineers get the power to make tons of antimatter? That's a lot of water under the Hoover Dam.

Maybe with orbital stations and lunar bases this wouldn't be such a problem, tho.

Gergny posted 01-09-99 01:46 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Gergny  Click Here to Email Gergny     
um... this stuff is way over my head. So how bout a musical interlude?

Bill Grogan's Goat
Was feeling fine.
Ate six red shirts
Right off the line.
Bill took a stick,
Gave him a whack,
And tied him to...
The railroad track.

The whistle blew.
The train grew nigh.
Bill Grogan's Goat
Was doomed... to die.
He gave a groan
Of awful pain.
Coughed up those shirts,
And flagged that train.

Grey Jester posted 01-09-99 05:15 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Grey Jester    
Here's a question (for those with the math I don't have...)...

Given a 100,000 ton ship, and the desired travel time, it's possible (and you have!) to work out the total energy required, etc.

We seem to be arguing over expected ISP of the drive system. Now, some years ago, I got interested in nuclear propulsion/fusion energy and found an example of a fusion drive.

Really, I'm just trying to find an upper bound for fusion rocket ISP here...

The idea is as follows: If I remember properly, the reaction D-He3 yields a considerable portion of the reaction energy in the form of a charged particle (I think it was a proton). Charged particles can be directed with magnetic fields (Forward did this on a paper discussing antimatter rockets). Assuming 60% of the kinetic energy of the charged reaction products can be turned into thrust, what ISP are we talking?
Is 60% a good figure (I figured 50% of the reaction products are going in sort of the right direction from the very beginning...)

Any help here would be appreciated...

Grey Jester

Khan Singh posted 01-10-99 07:08 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan Singh  Click Here to Email Khan Singh     
Suppose that instead of fission or fusion power, you used a proto-matter reactor to power your starship? The proto-matter reaction, is, if I recall correctly:

2P-----> 2p + 2B + 3.141Kcal of enthalapy

This should be more than sufficient to drive the ship almost anywhere in the Galaxy.

Of course, you'd need to protect the crew from the lethel Berthold rays (term B in the equation), but this could be done by placing a large tank of ordinary water between the engine and the crew. Some of the water would be transmuted into it's polyhydrous form, but I don't think this would have any harmful effects.

I don't think this violates any the physical laws. Maybe some of the copyright laws.

sbj posted 01-11-99 06:20 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for sbj  Click Here to Email sbj     
I figure I better clear a few things up as it seems I rambled a bit in my post. I also extended it a bit to see if the trip could really work. My initial thoughts are no.

First, traveling 4.3 light years in 40 years requires an average speed of 10.75% of light speed (c). Since the ship needs to accelerate and decelerate, the actual top speed must be higher. I figure .15c or .2c is as good a guess as any. Contrary to another post, I believe that while time dialation is not insignificant, it is fairly minor at about 1-2%.

The problem as I see it is that too much energy needs to be diverted to increasing relativistic momentum rather than acceleration and a fusion engine wouldn't appear to be efficient enough.

Suppose the ship is 100,000 tons. If the top speed is .15c then 1,150 tons of energy are required to increase the ship's relativistic mass. What percentage of the ship is fuel? Say 25%. That means 4.6% of the fuel must be converted to energy before you even worry about the energy required to move the ship. If the top speed is .2c then 8.3% of the fuel needs to be converted.

How efficient is our engine? Let's be kind and assume the efficiency (in terms of % of fuel-mass converted to usable energy) is 15% for a fusion drive so that increasing the relativistic mass eats up 30%/55% of our fuel (without accounting for actually moving 4.3 light years). Is the remaining fuel sufficient to travel those 4.3 light years? I think it'll pose a problem. In fact, I think the 15% efficiency requires an engine working more along the lines of anti-matter/matter collisions someone else referred to. Nonetheless...

F=ma (the relativistic part is already accounted for for the most part so I estimate the rest through classical physics) so:

a=.029G/.039G
m=100,000 tons
F=25.8/34.5 million Newtons

We do this for 5 years over a distance d=Integeral[0,5k]atdt=25ak^2/2 (k is secs per year) so d~.375/.5 light years.

Ignore drag as there are enough approximations already.

Total energy thus equals 9.17*10^22/1.63*10^23 Joules for top speed of .15c/.2c

This energy will be needed to decelerate also, so multiply by 1.9 (to account for 10% mass loss) so we are at 1.7E23/3.1E23 Joules.

Go back to our available energy in terms of mass: Given 15% efficiency and the energy required to increase relativistic mass at top speed of .15c/.2c, available matter-energy is roughly 2.4/1.5 million kg. Notice how the available energy declines while the required energy increases with top speed.

Using E=mc^2 our fuel tanks give us 2.1/1.4 10^23 Joules. Seemingly we can make it at .15c, but not at .2c.

I guess I'll take back my original hypothesis that said I doubted it was feasible. I'm amazed at how close the required/available energy was given complete guesswork as to the process involved. Of course at this time there is no controlled fusion power outside the sun, so the whole premise is shaky in that regard. Plus, who knows how big the ship is, what percentage of the mass is the fuel, etc? I think an estimate of 15% efficiency in fusion is probably too generous. Bringing it to 10% cuts our available energy by about 1/3 and makes the trip much less feasible.

Futzing around with the numbers a bit more, a top speed of 12.5% makes the most sense because it works out much more elegantly. With 5 years acceleration and 5 years of deceleration at .024G, we'd get to AC in precisely 40 years. Moreover, the energy requirements are only about 1/2 the available energy so efficiency isn't as restricting. Ready to start exploring the galaxy?

Comments?

P.S. CyberSpyder: I think you mixed units in determining Gs. Accelerating to .2c in 5 years requires a constant acceleration of about 0.38 m/sec^2 or about .04 G. You are accelerating to .2c (about 60 million meters per sec) over 5 years (or about 155 million seconds). g is about 9.8 m/s^2

Spoe posted 01-11-99 07:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
Sounds almost exatly like some calculations I did on the boards back in August/September.

One point to remember is that these equations are linear wrt the mass of the ship.

Also, from a pure energy budget standpoint, the faster you can accelerate, the better(your peak kinetic energy is lower). You expend minimum energy with instantaneous acceleration to 0.1075c.

And yes, relativistic effects would be noticable, but for the type of estimates we're doing, fairly insignificant(in the 1-2% range, as you say).

Warangel posted 01-12-99 01:02 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Warangel  Click Here to Email Warangel     
While this is all very interesting and such ( Sid and the rest of the folks at Firaxis must be getting a kick out of this) I hope you all realize that this is JUST A GAME!

I doubt that the guy who is writing the back story was really figuring out the calculations on wether the stuff he was writing would actually work or not. While it's great that a game is generating this much interest in the actual physics of spaceflight, don't you think we're going a bit too far? I feel like I'm in the middle of a NASA planning session (BTW, does anyone here actually work for NASA?). Not that that's bad, it just seems to be going a little over the top for this one topic.

If you guys would like something else to churn your collective minds over, how about this: How come there is no snow on Planet? If it's supposed to be so like earth, wouldn't there be at least a few different climate zones?

RobinOfHuntingdon posted 01-16-99 05:35 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobinOfHuntingdon  Click Here to Email RobinOfHuntingdon     
I don't think they want another topic to mull over... they're having too much fun dreaming about the possible efficiencies of drives that are merely theoretical if that at this point in time...

While I have to admit I found this section quite entertaining (as well as a really excellent science lesson) I don't know beans about physics so I'm heading somewhere where I can at least understand what in the world people are saying...

BKK the Mentat posted 01-16-99 10:52 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for BKK the Mentat  Click Here to Email BKK the Mentat     
Umm...Could you sum this all up for me in one post??
Kerinsky posted 01-17-99 01:17 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kerinsky    
Sure BKK. It may or may not have been possible for the Unity to have made the trip to Alpha Centauri in the time given. Assuming laws of physics and other such bothersome things of course.
Spoe posted 01-19-99 09:18 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
Actually, Warangel, Chiron is(based on data BR(if you're listening, might you post it again over in off-topic in pre tags?) posted on the old forums) warmer, has a denser atmosphere, a different gas mix, and heavier gravity than Earth.

And yes, we realize it's a game. Physics heads just have a tendency to analyze everything.

DavidInTx posted 01-19-99 10:16 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for DavidInTx  Click Here to Email DavidInTx     
For an actual proposal about a trip to a planet, see: http://www.abcnews.go.com/go/sections/science/DailyNews/interstellar990114.html

Here's a section for the first part of the article:

Length: 1.2 miles. Passenger capacity: 1 million people. Cruising speed: 1.3 million mph. Cost: $20 trillion. These are the general specifications of an interstellar spaceship drawn up by Steven Kilston, a staff consultant at Ball Aerospace & Technologies in Boulder, Colo. Oh, and the launch date? Sometime in the 26th century. While the ideas of Kilston, an undergraduate research student of the late Carl Sagan at Harvard University in the mid-1960s are fanciful, they aren't utter fantasy. Kilston manages brainstorming efforts at Ball for NASA's proposed Terrestrial Planet Finder, a space-based telescope that would be able to spot Earth-size planets around nearby stars.

Dark Phoenix posted 01-22-99 02:46 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Dark Phoenix  Click Here to Email Dark Phoenix     
I love this thread. Been too long since I could get into something like this.

Anyway, for a ship going on a journey for as long as Unity's, would it be better to have a seperate power generator for the ships systems or have the ships engines power both the drives and main systems? Either case you would have two seperate things drawing on fuel stored on the Unity, so wouldn't that play hell with all your calculations involving the ships mass? I suppose you could have the ship's systems powered by some kind of 'battery' but that seems like a waste of mass in a situation like this.

Glad I could cause even more problems in an already ridiculously complex engineering problem.

RobKid posted 01-22-99 05:14 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for RobKid  Click Here to Email RobKid     
Dark Phoenix:
That's probably not a significant concern. Referencing the article referenced in the post before yours, his theoretical spaceship used 99.9% of its fuel for accelleration/decelleration and only .1% for running shipboard systems and it was designed to cruise at .002c and have the entire population awake for the entire journey, thus probably requiring more energy for shipboard systems.
Spoe posted 01-22-99 06:06 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
Yep, but it's not too big a deal to bring in the housekeeping load. That should be a basically constant drain. The tricky part is working with the accelleration bit.
futRtrubL posted 02-04-99 12:52 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for futRtrubL  Click Here to Email futRtrubL     
How about an antimatter fussion hybrid? We would not need to have a fusion explosion to create propulsion, just a sustained fusion reaction, similar to what is trying to be produced in tokomaks(sp?). This reaction itself would create direct kinetic energy in the leftover matter, this exhaust could be chanelled backwards by magenetic fields, these would have to be maintained by energy from somewhere. Which is where the antimatter comes in. Inject this into the exhaust flow and you would get more kinetic energy and the gamma rays would penetrate the magnetic containment fields where they could then be turned into electricity to drive ship systems the containment field and even some electroplasmadynamic system to increase the eficiency of the drive. Also the Bussard ramscoop could be employed to collect propellant and the matter component of the energy system and part of the fusion fuel if it fusion is just run by enritching this. I believe that though relatavistic effects are non-zero and even if they are significant they can be ignored for the journy as a whole, what inefficiency is created in the acceleration is gained in increased eficiency on the decceleration when the fuel has the speed of the craft added to it for perposes of calculating momentum and its own relatavistic mass increase. The gravity of the ship would be increased at speed so more material would be atracted to it to increase drag, but ofcource this gravitional force would be acting for a shorter amount of time and also more matterial would be better for the Bussard ramscoop.
Sorry if this seems too qualitative and not quantitative but i don't have enough time to go further, consider it food for thought.
Krikkit One posted 02-06-99 11:17 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Krikkit One  Click Here to Email Krikkit One     
I remember doing calculations on this for another reason and finding out that for about .1 c coasting speed you need the mass of fuel to be about
8* the mass of the payload
to double the speed you need to square the fuel factor so for .15 c (required due to acc/deacc times)
fuel factor ~ 20

This is assuming near pefect efficiency at turning Heavy hydrogen (not water/ but pure deuterium) in to Helium and using the energy

at about 50% efficiency (something that sounds more "realistic" for any system) the fuel Factor would be about
100 meaning that the Unity in Orbit around AC has 0.01 as much mass as the Unity launched from Earth's system.

This means that a tremendous amount of fuel (~100* some factor * the mass of 7/8 colony pods) and Very High Fuel Consumption Engines
(able to burn 100* their mass in less than 10 years (impressive for a nuclear fueled device)) Essentially, we are dealing with something that , if it is built at about 2100 or so will be like undertaking the Manhattan project in WWI, doable, but requiring tremendous effort.

Zapata posted 02-22-99 05:30 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zapata  Click Here to Email Zapata     
That would be WWII. The a-bomb would have made WWI far uglier than it already was.
Zapata posted 02-23-99 03:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zapata  Click Here to Email Zapata     
I hate to throw a wet towel on this, but I'm gonna put out a pretty safe bet that we're never gonna get to A.C. anytime soon. Recall that good old relativity equation:
Mo/
M = (1-(v/c)^2).
Even with a perfect fission/fusion reactor, reaching the speed of light, anyone on board would be turned into spaghetti. If a less powerful reactor were to be used, it would take a goddamned eternity, leaving the chance for all sorts of electrical failures or pure bad luck (pesky space debris, say). If we send people on a 2000 year voyage, big deal. Nobody would volunteer, and no results would be realised for dozens of generations. This is a WASTE OF TIME!!!!
Sir Oscar posted 02-25-99 04:34 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Sir Oscar  Click Here to Email Sir Oscar     
BIOLOGY!!! No one seems to be considering the effects this trip will have on the poeple. For the moment lets say we come up with the Tech. that allows us to go that far with a some what low fuel load, we are talking a 40 year trip right? Well I don't think we can be frozen and even if we could what is the effect of 40 years of light gravity (some of the "math" post stated about .02 G's) have on the body? I remember seeing a film clip on one of the Russian's that stayed on their space station for a few months, this guy could not even walk when he landed, as complex as the this discussion has been on the "math" I have always found the human factor to be much more complex. Food, air, waste, all the enviromental factors are huge! Remember the Bioshere? How long did they last tell they had to start using outside help? A few weeks at best? Lets get the biology crowd going on this now, any biology experts out there??
futRtrubL posted 02-26-99 02:10 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for futRtrubL  Click Here to Email futRtrubL     
Cryogenics is not as underdeveloped as some think, also there does not seem to be a low g environment, everyone walks around normally. And if you are frozen you won't eat. And about that spagetification, ooh you become a little bit heavier and a little bit longer on one axis COMPARED TO SOMEONE STANDING STILL, for you you are still the same mass and size, that's why its relativity.
MikeH II posted 03-23-99 07:37 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for MikeH II  Click Here to Email MikeH II     
I thought that the BioSphere 2 people had just made it for a whole year without outside help.
Ascendent posted 03-23-99 12:11 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ascendent  Click Here to Email Ascendent     
OK, I won't even pretend to know anything about the maths you guys are discussing. As a programmer, I just pick the relevant formula out of a book and let the computer do the hard work

If we are talking about remaining strictly within SMAC's technology guidelines, then Fusion and Antimatter power are out: They being technologies that you must discover after the arrival on Alpha Centauri.

Secondly, would variable vector thrust nozzles (akin to the Harrier) be practical for spaceflight? What sort of drive (rather than power source) do you think would be used? An ion drive just doesn't have the kick.

Cheers,

Rob
"Farewell... I will see you in a Million years" - Jason Ironheart

DanS posted 03-23-99 01:27 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for DanS  Click Here to Email DanS     
OK, test failed. Bringing this thread to the top.
Khan Singh posted 03-23-99 02:11 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Khan Singh  Click Here to Email Khan Singh     
Does anybody know what happens to the neutrons in an antimatter annihilation? Suppose, for instance, that an anti-lithium atom hits hydrogen atoms and annihilates. Do the neutons in the anti-lithium atom depart energetically from the nucleus, and if so, how energetically?

I'm trying to do a few calculations based on this thread.

MikeH II posted 03-24-99 04:14 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for MikeH II  Click Here to Email MikeH II     
The technologies on AC are partially new technologies but some are re-discovered techs where it wasn't possible to bring the necessary equipment with us. Santiago says something about it when you discover orbital spaceflight, we have got that already right?

So we can use techs we don't have when we first arrive on AC to build a starship on earth.

TBox posted 03-24-99 01:02 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for TBox  Click Here to Email TBox     
I am far and away out of my league, but as for fuel efficiency, why stop at H to He in a fusion engine? As I understand it, we can ride the Potential Energy ramp all the way down to about Lead or so, no?
Like I said, I'm out of my league, so I'm looking for some enlightenment here, people. . .
McGeorge posted 03-24-99 02:58 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for McGeorge    
Khan Singh: Matter/anti-matter annihilation works on a pair particle basis. So yeah, your hydrogen/anti-lithium reaction is going to have some stuff left over. Specifically two anti-protons (one was destroyed) and three or four anti-neutrons, depending on the isotope of Lithium. I'm not sure if the annihilation will break the remaining nucleus or not, but even if it doesn't Helium 5 and 6 aren't stable. I'm not sure what state it will all end up in. The chart of the nuclides might show it.

TBox: Well, you can ride the potential energy ramp to Iron, but hydrogen to helium gives you the most bang for your buck: five times or more the energy release for a given fuel mass.

googlie posted 06-20-99 11:55 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for googlie    
reactivating
googlie posted 06-22-99 08:02 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for googlie    
So if you wanted to increase the drive's efficiency by, say, 2% what would you do?
googlie posted 06-25-99 04:27 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for googlie    
I need ideas from you technical experts out there that contributed to this thread a few months ago (if you're still reading and posting)

Question:

We need to wring 2% more efficiency from the Unity's drive to increase mass.

How do we accomplish this?

What is the thrust/mass ration (i.e. can the mass be increased by the same 2%, more, less???

Googlie

googlie posted 06-27-99 09:53 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for googlie    
Anyone with any answers yet?

Googlie

googlie posted 07-09-99 01:51 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for googlie    
bumping

Any answers to my earlier question?

Googlie

Zoetrope posted 07-12-99 05:45 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Zoetrope  Click Here to Email Zoetrope     
googlie: the public libraries have books you canborrow that discuss thrust/mass/fuel questions for spacecraft in accessible language. That's where I looked for (and readily found) this material when I was a child interested in astronomy and astronautics.

Some of the books contain hundreds of pages of details as they apply to, for example, manned spaceflights. But I couldn't possibly remember them now, and I am in a farflung corner of the globe, so unless you're in a slum in the Third World, your chances are as good as mine were.

Incidentally, email facilities have sprung up everywhere over the last few months - throughout India (the Dalai Lama is wired! not weird, wired) and East Africa - Kenya, Tanzania, and of course the more homely (modernised) places such as Zimbabwe and South Africa.

M_ashwell posted 07-13-99 07:48 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for M_ashwell  Click Here to Email M_ashwell     
Bio-sphere 2 actually failed as they put too much nitrogen into the dome and the scientists were evacuated
as for the physics side of things i haven't a clue so i wont start
the way i see it we have physicisists (sp)
but no biologists or chemists
lets BUILD this thing we will need
life support
propoltion (i think this is covered)
tracking (damn space debris)
somthing to get space debris out of the way
a power source
cryogenic suspention
planetary probes
food
water
air
(erm is this all in life support)
manual control of the propultion
and other stuff
we have been given a weight limit
100,000 tonnes
and it has to hold 1 million people
(only 700,000 make it tho )
done
Astafas posted 09-06-99 07:55 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Astafas  Click Here to Email Astafas     
There is acutally a great deal of info on
this at some of the nasa pages. One particular graphic: http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/images/warp/warp06.gif
There is a lot of info at:
http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/warp.htm

This is mostly about emerging interstellar technologies that we might be using in the next century. Fusion or even anti-matter is not going to be enough. According to NASA,
the problem is more not having anything to push against for 4 years, unless you shoot something out the back. We need something that requires no propellant. The energy can be produced with matter/anti-matter but with a rocket type of engine, you're using action/reaction.

John_Galt posted 09-09-99 04:49 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for John_Galt  Click Here to Email John_Galt     
Guys, the 20 year decel is due to the arrangement of the engine, to slow down from those speeds, the structural integrity of the craft would be paramount, the engine would spit out some nasty reactants and would suddenly decelerate back into the unity ship.

You don't use a grappling hook to slow down a car traveling at highways speeds to slow down, you are being stopped by the friction between components.

If you fired the engine full blast all at once, the decel would cause the motor to backfire into the reaction chamber, you need to bring up the reaction up to full after you started to slow down you would get a stabler flight path.

As to the mass, planetary slingshot the thing around the planets like they do with today's probes, once you started accelerating out of the solar system then light the drive.

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