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Author Topic:   *Best Factions* II
Travathian posted 04-14-99 06:50 PM ET   Click Here to See the Profile for Travathian  
As far as probe, I am usually the one probing them, especially if I play as Believers or UoP. but I don't believe in 'oh, you did such and such to me, now I am going to wipe the floor with you' revenge type of strategy. They probe me, so be it, I'll be ready for it next time. Turn an ally against them, maybe destroy some of their terrain enhancements. But all out war is a bit extreme and I save as a last resort.
War is expensive, why spend all that money and time and effort, when I could pick on some smaller faction and subvert them, and save you for later.
Atombomb posted 04-14-99 08:52 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
wow AL, you would be fun to play against. Not only do you not realize the inner workings of probe finesse but you react violently! If I were playing you Id just play as the believers and frame everyone else. If you weren't watching, you would have no way of knowing who did it (except if you assume, this can also hurt you). Have a nice day.
Atombomb posted 04-14-99 08:57 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
About the relavence of computer players, I have made the point several times that they aren't humans, thats pretty obvious. However, on the hardest skill level you can still search for the best strats for the races, then compare how well you do against your OTHER games, not if you can simply win. I work to see which faction I can accomplish the greatest score with. Granted, sometimes you will tend to get a greater score just because the maps are always arranged differently. However, you can usually tell as you are playing if a certain faction "feels" better. Its all a matter of general flow, something you only gain when you truely understand all of the best strategies for the factions. Here, we do not know all of the best strategies, but we are coming very close. That is why we are here, so we can figure out the best way to use all of the factions. Arguing about which factions are better is just a way of stimulating us to find new ways to beat the strats of the other factions.
As for your nerve staple/mass atrocity tactics, if I were in a multiplayer game I would be talking to all the other factions to team up against you. The fact that you are using atrocities makes your faction easier to manage, and if it goes on unpunished you will have a large advantage. Therefore, if you ever used gas pods against me I WOULD get the whole world against you. Nuff said. (I would probably try to get the world against you even so, but others would be much less likely to care if you were not using atrocities).
Atombomb posted 04-14-99 09:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Btw, about your argument about the pks you must not have read even 10% of the reasons why we deemed them a superior nation. Even on the easiest level, the pks are still the best nation. Here is why. If you have less drones, then it is just easier to get golden ages. Nuff said there I think. You might staple your drones to solve your problems, but you can never attain golden ages without talents. And no matter what you say, golden ages win games, that is a fact. Besides, the best thing about the pks is the higher population cap anyways, if you had actually read what I had said, and what ghost had said maybe you wouldn't be refuting us with no substance to your arguments. I am open to reasons right now why the pks are not the best, but a simple "waaaaa, they just aren't mommy!" won't do it for me.
Travathian posted 04-14-99 09:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Travathian    
At higher levels, PK are a no brainer.

At lower levels, I will argue that.

Now, keep in mind the fact that I usually play large maps, with average low water, and lots of weathering. So I have lots of flat plains, and I go for high native.

Gains, all the way. As soon as I go green, my army of mindworms will crush everything.
The only challenge would be the Hive. Even if you're not on my island, I will have my continent conquered, and have plenty of room to expand, slower maybe, but with lots of room, where you're going to have to fight over land with other factions. Its during this time that I can get to mobility and start dropping my mindworms into fungus around your factions area (which by now there should still be some, not much). then I simply pick off your formers, destroy terrain improvements (especially roads) and let your empire die slow. take out the smaller peripheral cities and harass the inner ones, then I drop off more of my units and capture more mindworms on your own continent.

Yes, a lot of this stretegy is based on the world I choose to build, and starting position, but its very hard to compare to. Yes, you can get to a golden age faster, but then again, you have to get to size four city before you get your bonus happy citizen.

If you're on my continent, none of your cities would get that far, unless I had to go thru someone else to get there. If you're not on my continent, I can only hope whoever is there with you isn't friendly =)

Atombomb posted 04-15-99 12:00 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
actually you are wrong, a size 1 city has a talent, and has a 2nd one at size 5. Therefor, if you manage to get the genome project, you can have golden ages at size 3 and 5 without even having psych, if you are on talen or lower. As far as landing mindworms....the peacekeepers have one nice little advantage....the path that they normally take, up to centaury empathy, gives mindworms. Therefore, if a peacekeeper nation wanted to, they could build mindworms as well. I would of course admit, the gaian mindworms would have greater morale (from picking off uncaptured mindworms while trolling), but its not like mindworms are the ultimate. Psi defenders also are useful, and if you have walls you still get the benefits of that. Besides, I usually clear out all the fungus on my island as soon as possible (in my city range). That makes it hard to really be effective. Additionally, with golden ages and increased cap on population, lals cities tend to grow rediculously quickly (they never have drone riots, thats the real key; more workers bringing in the food). Its really hard to compete with that.
Travathian posted 04-15-99 12:33 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Travathian    
Well, I hope all of your good producing square for each city are right next to your city. If not, I'll just have some mind worms camp out on your good squares, then attack when you try and get close. Don't have to attack your base to cause damage.

Plus, how many PK players make mindworms?

I'm not saying mindworms are the ultimate, but considering they are free, cost no support, easy to upgrade their morale, they will make a considerable to anything you can muster up in the same amount of time, plus I can send normal troops in addition.

And I wont even go into locusts.

Atombomb posted 04-15-99 12:37 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Actually I always make mindworms, they rock for when you have those pesky high defense units that you want to get rid of. And how are you going to camp out on my outer squares? for one, there is such thing as a scout rover (my preferred method of killing mindworms), and additionally, you have to walk onto the outer radius first, and when you do I can smack you silly.
Atombomb posted 04-15-99 12:51 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Well now I am going to say that the spartans suck. When they get hit by a METEOR . Have any of you gotten this catastrophe? I used to think that the energy crash thing was the worst (when your saving for economic victory, you have 30000 credits, then suddenly you have 500), but now I see that this is much worse. It makes all squares on the globe produce one less energy. Additionally, the city it hits is completely destroyed. It just happened I had the only two wonders I built in there . Any of you guys know of a random event worse than that? Enlighten me on your experiences (no, prometheus is not worse unless you pack your cities like a moron).
Al Gore Rythm posted 04-15-99 11:24 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Gore Rythm    
Atom:

I'm not an idiot. I know where a probe comes from regardless if someone is framed for it. For one thing, I'll be sure to infest your datalinks in any way I can. Governership, Empath Guild or the good old fashioned way. So I'll be able to keep track of your movements via the support screen. And even if I can't I have a dense sensor net and bunkers at my borders with two units to a bunker. You'd have a fun time trying to get in.

Trav & General Thread Readers:

Why does everyone always misinterpet what I say?

Let me make my style of play clear:

I am NOT (NOT) one of those war hawk, atrocity happy, itchy-trigger finger Spartan fools. I know quite well they get themselves killed.

I am NOT (NOT) an atrocity happy moron.

What I AM (AM) is an efficient, brutal player. I will do whatever is nessecary to get my goals met. I will be sure that anyone who interferes with these goals will be dealt with in a manner that will not further impede my goals.

Examples:

I am happily spawning my Hive socieity when Dr.Bendova of the UoP probes me. I have well over 40 cities and Dr.Bendova has 5. My army is massive, trained and up to date. His is small, weak and prehistoric.

Immiedete Reaction:
How did he get through? Better step up on the sensors and patrol troops.

Second Reaction:
General, send my troops to kick Dr.Bendova's arse!

Result:
My security systems ante-up, Dr.Bendova is annihlated and all is happy in Hive-Town.

Example #2:

Sparta is big buff and dumb. They've had to war the nations with extra tech to be able to advance their own. How inefficient. I've always found it more effective to just extort tech. But now, my extortion has made me the new tech guy. And Sparta wants a piece. They demand some shiny new technology that obviously has military value.

Immiedete Reaction:
Step up on defense measures, be sure to launch an Orbital Defense Pod if PBs are available as well as make some PBs of my own.

Second Reaction:
Prepare some Probes and infest Spartan territory. Monitor their movements carefully for a few dozen turns. Be sure to steal something from them and frame another faction so that they become preoccupied.

Result:
I delay any Spartan war by getting them to fight someone else. I also quickly get an inifltrator (if one isn't in already) to be sure to monitor the support, garrison and military screens atleast once every two turns for a few dozen turns. During their preoccupation I prepare my own defenses and will possibly strike them while they're preoccupied and weak.

Example #3:

My next door neighbor is the PKs. We are evenly matched on almost all playing fields. The PKs frown on me extorting technology from Dr.Bendova of the UoP. But Lal doesn't have the guts to go one on one. When drone problems arise I will occasionally Nerve Staple when buying a theatre or sending a police unit would jeopordize my primary goal. Lal is annoyed at this and finally orders me to stop or he'll beat me down.

Immiedete Reaction:
"Get off my land you Peacekeeping sonuva..."

Second Reaction:
Ante up defenses, especially along PK perimeter. Infiltrate them and keep a close eye on their movements for a few dozen turns. When they lighten up I strike and shut up Lal and his UN Charter for good. If he does not I will try to rally other factions to do so and strike while he is preoccupied. I wanted my own island/contient anyway.

So now do ya'll understand? I am not a war-hawk. I am a manipulative mean guy. That is why I play Hive and not Sparta. I only do the real evil, war-hawk type stuff when (remember this line) IT IS TO MY ADVANTAGE.

Thank you and that's all for now.

Ghost posted 04-15-99 01:00 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ghost    
Al --
We all take a while to get used to each others styles. For a while there it was pretty much just me and Atombomb arguing. I tend to get pendantic, and sometimes he is a little acerbic; but we know this about each other now, and so that's alright. We are operating out of a dialogue established over quite a few posts, and we take care to refresh that every so often, telling new people exactly what we are debating, etc etc. The fact is that you did enter and begin criticizing the process without bothering to have even read the whole post you were criticizing, much less the earlier Best Faction posts, which were a precursor to this project. So that's the first impression we have of you, and in a medium such as email or posting, where there is no inflection or expression to help us understand what you are talking about, your earlier belligerence causes us to interpret you negatively.

Plus I assume Atombomb is pretty tired of me defending Hive, and I pretty much offered to stop doing so on the condition that he stop slamming it, and now you come along and he has to suppress another Hive using bastard.
So thats another possible reason...

Finally, this post series thus far is simply involved in a very aggressive style of debate. You're getting the same as everyone gets around here, with a little extra for the above reasons. If you read back through the posts sometime, you'll see what I mean.


Travathian -- I'll admit that mindworms are a wonderful addition to the game... free fast troops which hit really heavy on the offense, regardless of the tech level of your opponent. However I find that they don't tend to make very good slash and burn maruaders for just the reason that Atombomb mentioned -- if you stick them outside someones base, within their production radius, then you are within the attack radius of rovers, to say nothing of more advanced troops (speed wise... I realize that big guns avail you nothing), and mindworms are awful on the defensive, especially if being attacked by a dedicated anti-psi troop... I find that one of the best defenders is a 1-2t-2 rover, which has the speed to cruise out and hit mindworms before they can hit my formers (after you clear the fungus, of course) or city, and is mighty cheap to produce (as cheap as 1-1t-2 via Trance's calculation). Unless for some reason you have a really pathetic morale, or you are dealing with a really gigantic worm, worms just tend to melt away on the defensive against a psi - ready attacker (either trance or song do the trick, and both together are nearly insurmountable to even the toughest worms).
I don't mean to crap on Mindworms at all... they are one of the main reasons I love to play as Gaians more than any other faction, because against the computer they often allow you to sidestep the conquer techs for quite some time, and by the time the computer begins to marshall anti-psi usits against you you will have grabbed a lot of conquer techs through Spoils of War and can integrate your forces while relying on the Build / Explore tech advantage you have procured to make your bases energy and mineral powerhouses (and you can also grab the Twister and Amplifier to counteract the psi defenses, but thats a little later and a whole lot of mineral expenditure down the road. Some people say they aren't vital projects... I couldn't disagree more. Not only do they really help against dedicated psi units, but they keep those projects out of enemy hands... a priority for someone intending to use mass psi conquer tactics). But there are ways to use worms effectively, and I have found that as maruaders they are best served by slamming straight into cities, do or die style. (And I didn't think that base defenses helped against psi... or am I wrong?)

--Ghostosarus Rex

Al Gore Rythm posted 04-15-99 01:18 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Al Gore Rythm    
Well sorry a doodelee there, Ghost, but I don't have enough free time to read a thread as tremendously long as the old Best Factions.

Well I guess I'm a Hive Bastard but that's just too bad

Since this thread just begun I think I'll sit here and bathe in this endless arguement over strategum

Travathian posted 04-15-99 03:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Travathian    
Well, I don't play with spoils of war, and unfortunately in my current game the number 2 faction is the UoP so they refuse to pact with me, so I'm not getting any research from them. I am debating crushing the Spartans since they are due north of me on a tiny island, with no mobility *grin* and try and subvert her. I currently have 4 mind worm boils (all orginally captured) which unfortunately require support cause I didnt know the 'be in fungus at end of turn trick' but I am top in all categories except military (Lal is #1). Big map, only islands, and lotsa mindworms trolling about. Still trying to get an IotD. The other factions seem to be pretty much out of the picture except Lal which got lucky and got a decent sized island.

I'm trying a total build strategy after I hopefully crush the Spartans, since then I will have half the map to myself (due to odd placement of the factions, nobody is on the right half but me and NRA's bitchqueen).

So far I have to absolutely agree that changing SE choices before first contact is critical to getting off to a good start with other factions. I already have the Empaths Guild (awsome on this map) so I have thoroughly tested this with reload after reload after reload and its always the same.

Atombomb posted 04-15-99 03:56 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Hey al, maybe you need to take typing 101 eh? We can write long threads because we don't have to sit staring at the keyboard for 5 minutes to find out how to type a period.
As far as your strategy of playing, it sounds to me like its pretty much like your only playing computers, which refutes everything you seem to stand by from previous arguments. You think that humans are going to let you be "conveniently" allied? haha, right. Youd be lucky to EVER get an alliance with your play style, no one with any sense would ever trust you. Thus, you would be at war at the whole world, something not even the best player can win against. Btw, learn to substantiate your arguments with proof, not this "I would kick your ass then I'd kick your ass just cuz I rule" argument.
Atombomb posted 04-15-99 03:58 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Btw ghost, keep trying to defend the hive its great watching you try to . Spartan power!
HolyWarrior posted 04-15-99 04:12 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for HolyWarrior  Click Here to Email HolyWarrior     
Has anyone played a hotseat game as all 7 factions at once? Let's settle this once and for all!
Atombomb posted 04-15-99 05:08 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
I wish I could duke it out with some of you in a game, but unfortunately I am stuck with version 1.0 right now (I am currently unable to purchase the game....no cars alowed for on campus, and no nearby places to buy it anyway). So unless you can hook me up with a copy I guess that would have to wait .
Travathian posted 04-15-99 06:02 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Travathian    
Al is the perfect play to play feints against. Send a couple of units around back and attack, then run away. Watch him build up there and waste money. Then probe a different side, but dont go back. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Get real expensive to keep build all of those counter units, hope you have a high support rating to afford them.

And of course, while you're wasting money on nothing, I am spending money convincing the rest of the planet you are the great evil and need to be exterminated, while strengthening my infrastructure.

Also, you assume that you're going to infiltrate me, or become planetary governor and you can watch my every move? Is this because in every game you get these against the computer? Do you really think human players would vote for you? Or that we'd just let you walk right up to our cities and infiltrate?

Come on, use some common sense, human players dont fall for these tactics, and use far better against you. Try changing the settings in your game and play a difficult game and see how well you fare.

Atombomb posted 04-15-99 07:07 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Actually, if you have a pact with another human they are very likely to vote for you, nuff said. About the hit and run, how many units do you think I would need to defend myself? 1-2 scout rovers can easily defend a wide area, and they move faster on all terrain except xenofungus (which we explained would be cleared away). Anyway, my preference for killing worms is later in the game, psi attack copters, they just rock (against anything really) .
Smeagol posted 04-15-99 10:41 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Smeagol  Click Here to Email Smeagol     
Ghost-- I read your post in the "supply crawlers" thread, and I wanted to clear things up.

The hive is my favorite faction, actually. I wouldn't consider them the best faction (in fact, I personally can do better with Morgan), but I find I enjoy the game more when I play them. The ability to easily switch to a power value and have support up to base population along with +2 morale makes them a war machine, and between wars you get a huge growth and industry bonus. So for warlike people like myself, the hive is an excellent choice.

I agree that other factions can do this as well, but I think it suits them best, since they aren't hampered by the -3 industry of the spartans. And once I get the cloning vats, the negative effects of power are eliminated.

By the way, I think this thread has taken a turn for the worse. The criticism began just because of the name "best faction"-- although we argue over this here, the main purpose is to discuss various strategies for the factions to make the game more enjoyable. In fact, rather than closing off the game into one in which only a few factions are worth playing, this thread actually promotes the use of all of them. Keep it going, guys.

Smeagol posted 04-15-99 10:42 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Smeagol  Click Here to Email Smeagol     
I don't know how a word disappeared from my 2nd paragraph, but I meant to say I find the game more "enjoyable" when I play the hive.
Smeagol posted 04-15-99 10:43 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Smeagol  Click Here to Email Smeagol     
I'm losing my mind. Disregard my second post there.
Atombomb posted 04-15-99 11:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
If you were using the spartans and didn't grab the vats, it would be worthless to put yourself in a power society. Stick to knowledge.
Travathian posted 04-16-99 12:48 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Travathian    
Ok, I'll start something somewhat new, but does anyone think that any of the factions aren't properly evened out?

And I don't mean do they balance each other out, I mean of the seven do you feel each one individually is balanced. (ie UoP research bonus countered by the extra drone)

ViVicdi posted 04-16-99 03:01 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ViVicdi  Click Here to Email ViVicdi     
Best faction probably depends on your goal. PK's probably have the fastest win, a Diplomatic Victory. However, scalability problems limit their potential in the mid- and late-game.

Morgan is absolutely the most-scalable and can win Econ AND Transcendance fastest. Morgan is weak in the early game but untouchable in mid- and late-game.

Gaians romp in the early game (possible conquest victory) and in the very late game (Eudaimonia makes them as scalable as Morgan, but way too late to have a big impact. Still, a possible Transcendance victory).

Believers, Hive, & UoP are "fast starters" and fit most easily with a conquest strategy. Hive and UoP have the weakest mid- and endgames, so they are racing the clock. UoP gets to the mid- and late-game faster, which is a huge advantage.

The Spartans are, in my view, the most consistent faction in the game. In the early game the industry is a killer but the police and morale are also killers. In the mid- and late-games the industry penalty & morale advantages become less important while the police advantage improves scalability, making them an excellent mid- to late-game faction.

The answer to the question, "which is the best faction?", then, depends on what your victory conditions are. Technically the people who say PK's are the best are right, because they have the fastest victory, but if I were setting out to Transcend on a huge map I would go Morgan.

Now, my favorite MoO strategy: Meklar Expansionist! The Psilons were amusing, sure, because you could almost design your ships by selecting from the smorgasbord of components to research, but the awesome early jump-start, the mid- to late-game flexibility, and the "Excellent" computer rating of the Meklars got me hooked. "You don't need as many planets as the others," the rulebook said. Bah! I hunger for planets, good ones, bad ones, big ones, whatever, all with maxxed terraforming, to build a truly obscene industrial empire! Expanding before you need to means growing your POPULATION, which is key to Meklar supremacy -- each of your citizens can control more factories, so the more consistently you maintain their exponential growth the higher your potential when your industry catches up.

The early advantage is 4 factories per citizen while everyone else is stuck with 2. That's almost a 100% advantage in research AND industry during those first critical years of expansion and research of terribly important things like pollution controls and fuel cells.

Flexibility is the final big advantage -- I can build more ships than the Psilons and do more research than the Klackons. That's just cool.

Atombomb posted 04-16-99 11:25 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
What is this "scaleability" bs? I don't have any idea what your talking about, maybe you should clarify it. As far as lal only being good because of his fast path to victory, and no mid-late game, you must be completely out of your mind. Maybe you should read some previous strategy posts about lal more carefully. He can easily win using ANY path of victory he chooses, especially trandescendance. You can't compare to larger cities w/golden ages.
ViVicdi posted 04-17-99 01:58 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ViVicdi  Click Here to Email ViVicdi     
"Scalability" is a faction's ability to capitalize on large numbers of bases and high population.

Low efficiency, drone problems, and bad economies penalize scale, while high efficiency, more talents, better police, and better economy are multipliers.

Lal takes a hit on efficiency, which increases the bureaucracy penalty, which offsets the talent bonus. Energy loss from remote bases hurts, too, and the larger you scale the farther away your bases get from HQ.

Morgan, on the other hand, can gain an extra point of efficiency AND use police by going Green / Wealth instead of Free Market / Knowledge, while still maintaining +2 Economy.

When I won by transcendance in 2313 playing Morgan on Transcend level I had bases all over the place; Mount Planet, Geothermal Shallows, Pholus Ridge, Freshwater Sea; I was EVERYWHERE, because my efficiency made it lucrative to do so. Meanwhile the combination of +2 economy + police + 10% psych + high efficiency is pretty good for Golden Ages.

Morgan is also well-known as a slow starter. Coincidence?

Atombomb posted 04-17-99 02:51 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Wow ur cool dude, cept I did that with the believers at 2290 (and the believers suck compared to lal). The fact is morgan does not really gain all that much more than lal at all, and the fact that lal has an UPWARD population cap makes it much, much easier to get larger faster, hence you will get tech faster and you will be able to expand faster. Additionally, Lal gets the talents, and planetary governor. Planetary governor reaps outrages rewards in income. I have games at around 2200 where i have 5000 cash just sitting around....that early, because of lals expanding ability and his governor income. Additionally, lal may hit the bureaucracy quicker than morgan, but not alot, and lals talents offset that easily and then some. I think you just need to learn how to play lal big guy.
Atombomb posted 04-17-99 02:53 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
As far as the economic structures, the +2 econ in late game doesn't mean much of anything, efficiency does. You just raise all the terrain you have up to the highest level, then kick into a democracy/green/knowledge/cybernetic.
Atombomb posted 04-17-99 02:55 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
One more thing, lal will expand faster, he does not have a -1 support. Do the math.
ViVicdi posted 04-18-99 03:48 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ViVicdi  Click Here to Email ViVicdi     
I think I agree with you, if what you're saying is that Lal is a fast starter and Morgan a slow one. But once you cross a certain threshold, that balance shifts. This trait is a hallmark of strategy games; a tradeoff between "fast start" vs. "fast finish." The fast starters almost always have the best advantage because of exponential growth, but in a long-term situation fast starters "stall" while build-oriented factions just keep getting better.

It is also an unwritten rule that fast starters usually win in multiplayer -- I agree with you that Lal is the best faction, he just wouldn't be my first choice for a Transcend victory.

A +2 Economy in the late game is not important to you probably because Lal has to sacrifice too much to get it. However, Morgan on Democracy / Green / Wealth / Cybernetic is tough to beat; maybe Gaians on Democracy / Green / Knowledge / Eudaimonia, but Cybernetic becomes available much sooner than Eudy.

Ghost posted 04-18-99 06:07 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ghost    
Thought I would jump back in. You are incorrect about Lal being somehow less scaleable than Morgan due to the inefficiency drones. Lal is the easily most "scaleable" faction in the game. Here's why.

1) Lal gets +1 efficiency pretty easy with Democracy, and will alternate between all of the economic systems at one time or another, sometimes going as low as -1 with Demo-Planned, being popped up back to +1 with a Creche. However, the creche bonus only applies at that particular base, and so it doesn't alter the bureaucract drone number. However, even with -1 effic the PKs are still less vulnerable to bureaucratic drones than the Morganites at +4 effic, because...

2) Bureaucratic drone numbers are calculated from the number of BASES you have, with every base over an effic determined number adding a random drone to one of your bases, while Lal gets an extra talent for every 4 POPULATION or fraction thereof in a base. Therefore, even with all bases less than size 4, Lal will be way ahead in terms of drone control... free talents in every base up to his bureacratically determined base limit, and then at every base over that the talent will cancel out the drone (granted, the drone is randomly allocated, so it isn't always in said new base). However, late game bases tend to be much larger than size four, and so Lal's extra Talents really kick in here, adding in talents all out of proportion with any sort of bureaucratic penalty Lal is assessed. Therefore, Lal will be able to have more workers in the field at a time, thus simulating MOO's factory control per unit pop.

In addition, the extra talents provided help A LOT towards bringing on a Golden Age, which provides a +1 econ and a +2 growth, reproducing and beating Morgans inherent +1 econ. Now, granted, Morgan can get golden ages too, but he'll have to expend a lot more energy to get them, and econ bonuses over +2 are not quite so overpowering (although +4 is great with lots of pacts... and planetary govenor... wait... Lal can get +4 with Free Market + Wealth + Golden Ages, and he is easily the champ at becoming Plantary Govenor... hmmm). Depending on what you need and what you compromise, it may still be worth it, but Lal is without a doubt many times better at providing them.

This is, I think we will all agree, a case where the numbers prove the point. If you are thinking of arguing that efficiency is still necessary for energy conservation, I will give you that, but energy con. effic. is easily come by for each particular base via a Children's Creche... thus helping to cancel out that particular scalability penalty for Lal.

I'm sorry... you can tout Morgan as an easy path to +2 econ, and I won't argue; that is his strength, and even Lal has to go a bit out of his way to get a Golden Age. But to try to have the Morganites challenge Lal on the PK's strength is just silly, and the PK's strength is precisely scaleability (as well as diplomacy... an added perk).

--Ghost

ViVicdi posted 04-19-99 01:36 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ViVicdi  Click Here to Email ViVicdi     
What's the point of building more bases if you don't get lots of energy out of them? Well, okay, a higher score and more votes, but if you're going for Transcend or Economic wins, you need energy.

Base for base Morgan scores more dough -- once a certain threshold is crossed.

And the "more workers" argument is unconvincing because even at my most remote bases a 10% psych allocation caused first hab space then land utilization to max before I had drone problems. Remember that with high efficiency a psych allocation is a viable strategy, because it works adequately even in your most remote bases. (Police take care of undeveloped properties, although Lal, of course, doesn't have to build psych buildings to put his new holdings to work.)

Atombomb posted 04-19-99 11:05 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Atombomb  Click Here to Email Atombomb     
Heh, maybe you should read some of the strategies I have posted about raising terrain. If you raise terrain, you receive around a +6 or so bonus with lal on all squares. +6 and +7 are hardly a difference worth comparing, especially when for most of the game lal will have bigger cities, and alot more. As lal you can easily get a TON of size 9 cities with sickening speed. Try this: go up to planned society asap, advances, and kick into it as soon as you get it. Then grab democracy tech and kick into that. In your best mineral city grab the genome project if at all possible, it should be a primary focus. Over expansion is not entirely necessary, as you see in a minute, just get that wonder. Any other wonder you can grab is good too. Once you grab democracy tech, kick into that, then build a creche in every city. When you have a creche/democracy/planned/golden age you will grow one population size EVERY turn no matter WHAT. At this point, make sure you have a rec commons, and just let your population soar. With a rec commons and the genome project you should be ok for drones up to size 9. At this point just crank colony pods out of all your cities. As soon as they build, the city grows back. Just keep doing it, and you will expand at an incredible rate, especially since size 9 cities build colony pods veyr quickly. In new cities immediately build a creche before anything else, send a defender from another city for its well-being. After the creche get a rec commons asap. With the creche in place, this puppy will boom up to a 9 as well as long as you keep your drones in line. Have fun with that strat, its really great .
Ghost posted 04-19-99 01:13 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ghost    
One note: base for base whoever has the highest econ score gets the most energy... but +2 is really the key number, the higher numbers only really matter with lot and lots of bases. And the person with the highest econ isn't always morgan. And base for base is a useless comparison when you have many fewer bases. Perhaps per capita the total GNP of Norway is greater than that of Russia... but even given the state of the Russian economy, does anyone doubt what would happen if, in a geopolitical vaccuum, Norway and Russia went to war?

Anyway... One thing that makes me laugh on these posts is that everyone always says "Whats the point of more bases if you aren't getting more energy?" Well, minerals. Perhaps they don't help out with research per sey, but they are necessary for building a) more colony pods and formers, hence expansion/perfection of surrounding lands b) oh... what are those things called that you can use to win the game with... armies! Right! More bases equals more support and more minerals to build more probes and military units c) more special projects. So thats one oversight that always makes me laugh.

Also... Lal is the diplomatic character in the game, and as you noted, more pop equals more votes. If he has many more people than anyone else, and a 50% bonus (probablt 100% with Empath Guild), he will win via diplomacy. I know you said "if you are going for an economic or transcend win"... but what is wrong with a diplomatic victory? Winning is winning. If you are limiting things randomly like that then there is no point in talking about the power of a faction. Why not ask how well the Spartans can do without a military victory?

On another note, we weren't previously talking about energy, now were we? We were talking about how scaleability, which is slightly different. Energy would be more like research in MOO. The point was that the Meklons could expand extremely well and thus
outdo others at their strengths by virtue of sheer numbers ("What is the point of more bases if you aren't getting more energy?"... more energy in aggregate). Have we forgotten our earlier arguments? Morgans energy production is not that much better that he can outdo someone who is much larger than he is. He just can't. Almost anyone can use Free Market to get +2. It is a peacetime option, but it's easy.

Now, it is also untrue to dismiss Lals ability with Talents as a way of saying you don't have to build pysc facilities. It is true that this is part of what it means, but with the inherent Talents, a rec commons/tree farm/hydrid forest, it takes very little energy to put a such cities into Golden Ages.

More workers is, granted, more of an issue in the early game, hence expansion, hence what you call fast start, which I argee with except that I don't agree that Lal falls below anyone else in the late game. Try playing on Transcend with Lal or Morgan. Lal gets to have 2 workers in the field, while Morgan needs to put one of them to work as a doctor or else all hell breaks loose. Psych allocation in the early game is not an option with such small amounts of energy coming in, and you cannot afford to take any energy off the quest for centauri ecology anyway... getting to formers late is extremely bad. So Lal's worker advantage is most potent there... but what can you do if he is producing more energy, minerals, and nutrients (particularly because you will have to feed your doctor, thus slowing growth further) than you? Keeping bases at size two is a valid option for the early game, with an occaisional bounce up to three/doctor... keeping bases at size one is difficult, wastes rescources on delayed colony pod construction, and just produces nowhere near as much.

Lals start makes him the king of the tough games, his easy Golden Ages make him quite potent in the easier games. He is a powerhouse all the way through the game, and he has the ability to win the game first. His special abilities are the hardest of all the factions for other factions to imitate.

If this is not convincing, that is fine. But I will from hereon not simply keep repeating the above statements. If you do not think they make him the best, I can only believe that you do not understand the proper way to play Lal.

--Ghost

ViVicdi posted 04-19-99 06:08 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for ViVicdi  Click Here to Email ViVicdi     
I've never taken so much flak for agreeing with someone in my life. Lal is the best. I've said it before. Lal can win, first, often without firing a shot. On Transcend Lal's early advantage is phenomenal.

I simply suggested that with other victory conditions other factions might be better. Scalability, particularly energy scalability, is a real consideration for a Transcend or Economic victory condition; as I found out playing Yang it isn't so important when you're just out to win. When Lal only has to be 1/2 the size of any of his competitors to win by Diplomacy there's no question who the "best faction" is.

googlie posted 06-22-99 11:15 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for googlie    
reactivating
Ronin_54 posted 06-25-99 02:29 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronin_54  Click Here to Email Ronin_54     
Yup... The Gaians rule... Even on transent... You should try it... It is great...

About 50 DemonBoils heading towards the enemy capital can change the minds off your enemies soon...

A few days ago, I was playing on "Trancend", but I wasn't paying attention...

I had pacts with Morgan, the Peacekeepers and the Spartans. I annihilated the University (by accident...). I enslaved Yang (captured two of his bases, and he surrendered...).

Then I went towards the Believing Capital. They where quite resisting, and killed my scouts. On the way to their capital I destroyed several bases. I hoped they would surrender. I was hoping to win by trancendence you know... Then I captured the base... I forget about winning by "Conquest". Very strange... The Pacifist winning by Conquest...

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