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Author Topic:   Does "Clean" prevent drones

Ned posted 09-27-99 07:06 AM ET
I tried using "Clean" units to prevent drones when using "Free Market." Some times this seem to work. Sometimes, it did not. Clean units away from base seemed to alternate between causing and not causing drones. I have not been able to figure out exactly why. Could this be a bug?
Ned

Velociryx posted 09-27-99 10:03 AM ET
Ned, nope! Clean units removes the need to support that units with minerals from its home base (effectively, the unit becomes like a probe team). In order to avoid the drone problems in Market you can do one of two things:
1) Adopt a "Black Hole Defense" scheme, which leaves all your forces inside your borders.
OR
2) Set up a piddly little base somewhere in the middle of your empire and toss a punishment sphere into it. Then, send all your clean troops to that base (It doesn't even matter if the base is crowded in and can't work many squares), then they can go wherever they like with no drone problem....\

-=Vel=-
laurens posted 09-27-99 10:10 AM ET
Get the Matrix
Plato90s posted 09-27-99 03:01 PM ET
Does it seem funny to anyone else how well the Telepathic Matrix fits in with the move "The Matrix"??
Telepaths getting together to make everyone content enough not to revolt?! Sounds prophetic to me.
mcostant posted 09-28-99 07:04 AM ET
Ned, I want to add a bit to Velociryx info:
Using FreeMarket you must be aware that each Bomber (Needljet without SAM special) make two drones (also if parked on the base).
You can only keep Interceptor (e.g. on Alert at base or airfield). I'm almost sure (but not checked) that Conventional Missile have same effect as Bomber.
So, with Bomber you must chose the Vel's Punishment strategy (or other drone-reducer facility) instead of the Vel's Black Hole defense.
Plato's, me too found funny the relations between Telepathic Matrix and the movie
In fact, I suppose they share very similar SF background (you know, SMAC "pillage" ideas into a lot of Science Fiction).
Schoop posted 09-28-99 11:27 AM ET
Conventional Missiles and Planet Busters both cause 2 drones when Police is at -5, one drone at -4. Just like non-interceptor Jets and 'copters.
Ned posted 09-29-99 06:03 PM ET
Theoretically, your posts are correct. In actual fact, however, the game seemed to give me a great number of turns without away clean units creating drones. Cities with clean units away from base would then go into a Golden Age. When in Golden age, the city would experience a population boom. When it grew by one, the away unit drones would usually re-appear.
Again, I don't understand what it is that is triggering this drone "on" "off" effect. Is it possible that cities in "Golden Age" add to "police" as well?
Since your posts do not represent what I am actually seeing, I think this must be a bug. I also had one of the Secret Projects that increased police by 1. I was at -4.
Just as an aside, wouldn't it be great if one could use clean units to prevent drones in "free market?"
Ned
Beta1 posted 09-29-99 07:26 PM ET
For the millionth time - to avoif Fm drones build a punishment sphere and support your army from that one (or two) base(s)
mcostant posted 09-30-99 03:58 AM ET
Ned, let me suggest that if your city is in Golden Age your energy income grow. If you had 10% or more assigned to Psych the Psych effect should grow, then you got LESS drone.
Then again, ground and sea military units may be away from your bases, still don't create drone until they are INSIDE your borders.
Growing population base grow drone also; more again, if you don't do all the micromanagement, it appear to me that the system tend to react (not always in good direction. Do you have Governor On?) to the changing in base needs: if you don't support a lot of units (because now they are clean) may be they switch some square to food/energy production instead of mineral, then changing effect on Psych allocation.
Uhm, strange post: some real info, some my guess... hope it can help you anyway
Ned posted 09-30-99 09:56 AM ET
Mconstant, Your post may help provide the answer. You said that units (not air) away from bases must still be within your own zone of control to create drones. I didn't know this.
What about Pact brothers? If you are in their territory, and not in one of their cities, do you get drones.
As for my game, I never use the AI. It always seems to have a different agenda than mine. So I just use the queue.
As for the balance in Psych, this seemed to be largely irrelevant. I always got drones if any unit was away from base and the support box showed the one or two read minerals symbols. What I observed was that many times my away clean units had no minerals symbols at all, let alone red. This is what I expected and this is what I got a good portion of the time. At other times, though, I would get a red minerals symbols even though the unit was clean. When I did, I got drones.
My original thinking was that a clean unit would have no support minerals at all even it were away from base. It would therefore create no "red" minerals. Without red minerals there would be no drones.
For the most part, my thinking appeared to be correct. No minerals, no drones.
Even so, it was not 100%, thus my posts here.
The only post that really has addressed the issue is yours which seemed to suggest that as the my away units moved in and out of my own territory, they created or did not create drones.
However, could someone please tell me why a clean unit would create red minerals?
Ned
sandworm posted 09-30-99 10:33 AM ET
Those aren't red minerals, they're red "discord" markers to show that the unit is adversely affecting the happiness of its home city.
hopes he understood what Ned was saying,
sandworm
Ned posted 09-30-99 05:54 PM ET
Sandworm, Thanks for the explanation concerning the red discord markers. But, as I said, sometimes my clean units had them. Other times they did not. Ned
Schoop posted 09-30-99 08:24 PM ET
Okay, Ned. Here goes... At -5 Police, any combat unit not in a base or bunker creates 2 drones in its home city (i.e. 2 red discord markers). Likewise, any bomber, attack chopper, or missile causes 2 drones. CLEAN REACTORS DO NOTHING FOR THIS.
At -4 Police, anything that causes 2 drones at -5 will cause one drone. CLEAN REACTORS DO NOTHING FOR THIS, EITHER.
At -3 Police, The first Combat unit outside a base does nothing (and shows one yellow discord marker). Everything after this causes one Drone. Clean reactors do nothing for this either.
The only thing Clean Reactors do is prevent mineral use from something.
Ned posted 10-02-99 05:38 PM ET
Schoop, Thanks for your detailed reply. I am still telling you that my clean units outside my cities at -4 police had no red drone flags at least some of the time. This included air force units. I really hate repeating myself. I just want to understand why. Is this a bug, or does "Golden Age" have some effect on police, or what? Ned
MajiK6pt5 posted 10-04-99 11:10 PM ET
I think this may help...
first off, your units have to be outside your territory, not just your city...
second, when your pop grows, it makes more drones, because there is that basic 1 drone for every x (usually 5) citizens, and when it gets greater than 9, you get 2, etc...there seems to be some ratio of drone:citizen
Ned posted 10-05-99 03:04 AM ET
Majik,
The tip on the "territory" issue is important. I think this may be the answer because I had assumed that the game worked the same way it did in Civilization where any unit outside a friendly city caused "drones."
The next time I use "free market," I'll give it a test.
Ned
Compugasm posted 10-05-99 12:19 PM ET
*BUMP*
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Author	Topic: Does "Clean" prevent drones
Ned	posted 09-27-99 07:06 AM ET I tried using "Clean" units to prevent drones when using "Free Market." Some times this seem to work. Sometimes, it did not. Clean units away from base seemed to alternate between causing and not causing drones. I have not been able to figure out exactly why. Could this be a bug? Ned
Velociryx	posted 09-27-99 10:03 AM ET Ned, nope! Clean units removes the need to support that units with minerals from its home base (effectively, the unit becomes like a probe team). In order to avoid the drone problems in Market you can do one of two things: 1) Adopt a "Black Hole Defense" scheme, which leaves all your forces inside your borders. OR 2) Set up a piddly little base somewhere in the middle of your empire and toss a punishment sphere into it. Then, send all your clean troops to that base (It doesn't even matter if the base is crowded in and can't work many squares), then they can go wherever they like with no drone problem....\ -=Vel=-
laurens	posted 09-27-99 10:10 AM ET Get the Matrix
Plato90s	posted 09-27-99 03:01 PM ET Does it seem funny to anyone else how well the Telepathic Matrix fits in with the move "The Matrix"?? Telepaths getting together to make everyone content enough not to revolt?! Sounds prophetic to me.
mcostant	posted 09-28-99 07:04 AM ET Ned, I want to add a bit to Velociryx info: Using FreeMarket you must be aware that each Bomber (Needljet without SAM special) make two drones (also if parked on the base). You can only keep Interceptor (e.g. on Alert at base or airfield). I'm almost sure (but not checked) that Conventional Missile have same effect as Bomber. So, with Bomber you must chose the Vel's Punishment strategy (or other drone-reducer facility) instead of the Vel's Black Hole defense. Plato's, me too found funny the relations between Telepathic Matrix and the movie In fact, I suppose they share very similar SF background (you know, SMAC "pillage" ideas into a lot of Science Fiction).
Schoop	posted 09-28-99 11:27 AM ET Conventional Missiles and Planet Busters both cause 2 drones when Police is at -5, one drone at -4. Just like non-interceptor Jets and 'copters.
Ned	posted 09-29-99 06:03 PM ET Theoretically, your posts are correct. In actual fact, however, the game seemed to give me a great number of turns without away clean units creating drones. Cities with clean units away from base would then go into a Golden Age. When in Golden age, the city would experience a population boom. When it grew by one, the away unit drones would usually re-appear. Again, I don't understand what it is that is triggering this drone "on" "off" effect. Is it possible that cities in "Golden Age" add to "police" as well? Since your posts do not represent what I am actually seeing, I think this must be a bug. I also had one of the Secret Projects that increased police by 1. I was at -4. Just as an aside, wouldn't it be great if one could use clean units to prevent drones in "free market?" Ned
Beta1	posted 09-29-99 07:26 PM ET For the millionth time - to avoif Fm drones build a punishment sphere and support your army from that one (or two) base(s)
mcostant	posted 09-30-99 03:58 AM ET Ned, let me suggest that if your city is in Golden Age your energy income grow. If you had 10% or more assigned to Psych the Psych effect should grow, then you got LESS drone. Then again, ground and sea military units may be away from your bases, still don't create drone until they are INSIDE your borders. Growing population base grow drone also; more again, if you don't do all the micromanagement, it appear to me that the system tend to react (not always in good direction. Do you have Governor On?) to the changing in base needs: if you don't support a lot of units (because now they are clean) may be they switch some square to food/energy production instead of mineral, then changing effect on Psych allocation. Uhm, strange post: some real info, some my guess... hope it can help you anyway
Ned	posted 09-30-99 09:56 AM ET Mconstant, Your post may help provide the answer. You said that units (not air) away from bases must still be within your own zone of control to create drones. I didn't know this. What about Pact brothers? If you are in their territory, and not in one of their cities, do you get drones. As for my game, I never use the AI. It always seems to have a different agenda than mine. So I just use the queue. As for the balance in Psych, this seemed to be largely irrelevant. I always got drones if any unit was away from base and the support box showed the one or two read minerals symbols. What I observed was that many times my away clean units had no minerals symbols at all, let alone red. This is what I expected and this is what I got a good portion of the time. At other times, though, I would get a red minerals symbols even though the unit was clean. When I did, I got drones. My original thinking was that a clean unit would have no support minerals at all even it were away from base. It would therefore create no "red" minerals. Without red minerals there would be no drones. For the most part, my thinking appeared to be correct. No minerals, no drones. Even so, it was not 100%, thus my posts here. The only post that really has addressed the issue is yours which seemed to suggest that as the my away units moved in and out of my own territory, they created or did not create drones. However, could someone please tell me why a clean unit would create red minerals? Ned
sandworm	posted 09-30-99 10:33 AM ET Those aren't red minerals, they're red "discord" markers to show that the unit is adversely affecting the happiness of its home city. hopes he understood what Ned was saying, sandworm
Ned	posted 09-30-99 05:54 PM ET Sandworm, Thanks for the explanation concerning the red discord markers. But, as I said, sometimes my clean units had them. Other times they did not. Ned
Schoop	posted 09-30-99 08:24 PM ET Okay, Ned. Here goes... At -5 Police, any combat unit not in a base or bunker creates 2 drones in its home city (i.e. 2 red discord markers). Likewise, any bomber, attack chopper, or missile causes 2 drones. CLEAN REACTORS DO NOTHING FOR THIS. At -4 Police, anything that causes 2 drones at -5 will cause one drone. CLEAN REACTORS DO NOTHING FOR THIS, EITHER. At -3 Police, The first Combat unit outside a base does nothing (and shows one yellow discord marker). Everything after this causes one Drone. Clean reactors do nothing for this either. The only thing Clean Reactors do is prevent mineral use from something.
Ned	posted 10-02-99 05:38 PM ET Schoop, Thanks for your detailed reply. I am still telling you that my clean units outside my cities at -4 police had no red drone flags at least some of the time. This included air force units. I really hate repeating myself. I just want to understand why. Is this a bug, or does "Golden Age" have some effect on police, or what? Ned
MajiK6pt5	posted 10-04-99 11:10 PM ET I think this may help... first off, your units have to be outside your territory, not just your city... second, when your pop grows, it makes more drones, because there is that basic 1 drone for every x (usually 5) citizens, and when it gets greater than 9, you get 2, etc...there seems to be some ratio of drone:citizen
Ned	posted 10-05-99 03:04 AM ET Majik, The tip on the "territory" issue is important. I think this may be the answer because I had assumed that the game worked the same way it did in Civilization where any unit outside a friendly city caused "drones." The next time I use "free market," I'll give it a test. Ned
Compugasm	posted 10-05-99 12:19 PM ET BUMP