Submissive.......Thats What You Think

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Author Topic:   Submissive.......Thats What You Think

Sector7G posted 07-20-99 04:26 AM ET
Ok, I was mowing over the Spartans (after she thought she could bully me)
It came down to her and a few bases left. So I decided to accept her surrender (why I dont know..she was no use to me)
So later on I was mowing over the Hive and OUCH..whats that in my back...a Spartan knife
Just a warning to you players out there.. Watch your back!?!
Why would this happen (IMHO It should NOT)
whizkid posted 07-20-99 07:19 AM ET
How do you guys actually made the opposition surrender?
I see no indication of the option to demand surrender, nor can I find it in the manual too.
Series II posted 07-20-99 08:34 AM ET
Other factions just surrender when you have really beaten them. THey call you up and:
1) demand something or they will destroy you with their last scout rover
2) once you decline they offer a blood truce
3) once you reject the blood truce they say "OK, you win. I am hjopeless. If you will not destroy me I will serve you."
It goes something like that. Sometimes you can initiate this by telling them to give you something or you will squash them like a bug.
SMAniaC posted 07-20-99 09:18 AM ET
I have recently discovered that by demanding a pact for not crushing them like a bug, they have surrendered if they accept the pact. So there is an option to demand factions to surrender.
I agree the manual is too short.
JayPegg posted 07-20-99 09:26 AM ET
Sector~
You're saying that the spartans (submisive) turned on you? Did by any chance you use a lot of probe teams against them or demand bases/money? People have found them to renounce their pact if they're pushed around a little too much.
Every notice how miraim will never surrender to zak with knowledge? I pulled a blitzgreig on here after I had got every tech, I managed to kick her off her contient left with a size 3 and 7 base. And after a hail of missiles she was left undefended and not willing to surrender (?). I took the size but still no surrender.
~kelso
sandworm posted 07-20-99 09:45 AM ET
You don't even have to push them around. If you let them build up to a level that the "AI" thinks it can take you (yeah, right) they'll renounce pact and attack (damn Yang). It's usually a sneak attack.
Sector7G posted 07-20-99 09:30 PM ET
Jaypegg:
I was using attrocities but I repeled UN charter so that shouldn't have been a problem.
sandworm:
Come to think of it I think the Hive pulled that one me too..
IMHO...(should be)...Once submissive Always submissive
Mongoose posted 07-20-99 11:43 PM ET
Just like Germany after Versailles?
Zoetrope posted 07-21-99 12:55 AM ET
Triggers for the AI's willingness to surrender include the following:
(1) Of course you have proven that you're much stronger than they and can reach their bases.
(2) Don't commit atrocities.
(3) It helps if you have the social engineering that they love, but this isn't always as necessary or sufficient as you might expect in the circumstances.
(4) Your Probe team approaches the last big University base, after you've bought one of their biggest bases.
(5) You send an Empath rover toward Deirdre's last mindworm.
(6) You've saved Morgan's neck from the Believers by swapping his endangered bases for some deep in your territory. Then you demand that he be your Friend else you'll swat him.
(7) Yang realises he's beaten.
(8) You're the Hive; Lal can't stand your Police State no matter how much of a hiding you give him, but you want him to survive to do some research for you, so you go to Frontier government to negotiate terms.
(9) You never give in to demands, but you do give gifts to your weaker friends; if attacked during a declared vendetta, or betrayed, you hit swiftly and hard on multiple fronts, taking several enemy bases. (You anticipated an attack, so you built a strike force.) This can encourage the AI to think you're tough but decent, so when you have them on their knees, they see the advantage to siding with you instead of continuing against you.
Careful diplomacy has sometimes had my main rival, the number two power, offer a mutual defence Pact. As long as the common threat remained, they've held their side of the baragain, even when my SE was constantly anathema to them.
Animal psychology isn't trivial, but it sure is fun.
Zoetrope posted 07-21-99 01:05 AM ET
Example of a weak submissive pact partner turning against me:
During a comms blackout, I sent a probe team to buy one of Zak's bases that had a Project I wanted. When comms were restored, he declared vendetta.
So it doesn't have to be an atrocity, or repeated bullying, or a return to arrogance. One minor incident can trigger an angry renunciation.
Melkur posted 07-23-99 07:57 AM ET
Folks ~
I've recently been playing as Santiago had two strange experiences, both involving Morgan...
1) I was slowly devouring his territory and I was using Nerve Stapling to pacify newly conquered bases. When I got to his last base and had killed its last defender and was just about to enter the base, I tried the usual get-someone-to-surrender tactics and he wouldn't even return my call. Previously, the only recent contact I had had with him during the vendetta had been basically, well, taunts from him (mood: Obstinate) saying that I would pay for my crimes against humanity. Apparently nerve stapling a conquered base is enough to really piss him off. So I just killed him. However, not having all that tech that he had developed screwed me over for the rest of the game.
2) I was on a small continent with Morgan and Miriam and had somehow gotten into a Vendetta with Miriam early in the game. I had built up a large army of impact rovers and suddenly I start getting phone calls from Morgan showing a Submissive mood. Quite frankly, I didn't know what to make of it. Now that I think of it, though, his territory was located between Miriam's and mine and we both had large armies. Perhaps he was looking for the more acceptable protector. Can the AI really be that subtle?
~ Melkur
Series II posted 07-23-99 08:30 AM ET
I was at war with a lot of factions (Yang being one of them. I called them all up to try and get some of the wars resolved and Yang surrendered. He was on the opposite side of the world from me and I had never fired a shot at him, but I had a huge military and he had none.
Series II posted 07-23-99 08:31 AM ET
Another thing, I find that being the only person with a planet buster is an excellent way to get peace and submissive pact patrners.
Idunnoreally posted 07-23-99 12:32 PM ET
I don't know about having a PB and getting a more submissive reply from the AI. In one of the games I played the Spartans, I just captured two bases from Yang. So I stationed PBs in one of the captured bases, instead of getting submissive reply I was getting threats from Yang?!!! I was tired of threats from Yang anyway so I launched them all!!
Also after I committed atrocities on Yang, I keep getting "an urgent message" from him. When I chose to close the channels, he still was able to get his message through saying I will pay for my crimes.....yadayadayada. So what's the deal here?!!!!!!
dilbert posted 07-23-99 07:04 PM ET
More notes on diplomacy:
- Yang never surrenders to Lal, and vice versa. They are also the factions who are most unwilling to surrender.
- Yang is also unlikely to surrender to Gaians, but will always surrender to Morgan and Zak.
- Yang and Lal are also the biggest a**holes in the game. They will not sign any peace treaty with a faction stronger than theirs.
- Miriam will never surrender to Zak in knowledge.
- But Believers do surrender to other factions very easily, especially to the Hive. Two times when I was playing Yang on transcend level, she surrendered even I had no forces deployed against her!
- Yang is usually friendly to Gaians. Maybe he was once Deirdre's lover?
- Deirdre will terminate any pact with you if you go on a conquest tour. She will also do the same if your faction is stronger than hers.
- As Morgan, you can usually sign a peace treaty or pact with the Believers.
- Morgan is the most sneaky one. He will frame you with his probe teams even if you are pacted with him.
- When you first encounter Santiago, she always demands something and will declare vendetta if refused. However, her demands are usually acceptable. So if you agree to her, you can sometimes even sign a pact with her.
- Zak will always declare vendetta if you stay in wealth long enough. However, if you choose knowledge, he can be your pact brother from beginning to the end, regardless how powerful and bloodthirsty you are.
- AI factions will never surrender if you committed enough atrocities so that your reputation is infamous.
Lambo posted 07-26-99 03:21 AM ET
there was this one time when i was at war wi th yang since the beginning of the game but never attacked him. i conquered the rest of the world but since Yang was on a far away continent and not expanding i decided to play simcity with my empire and let him live for a while. however, Yang soon sent his troops against me but as soon as his troops met mine he sent me a com-message and surrendered. i never even fired a shot at him! weird...
Lambo posted 07-26-99 03:23 AM ET
by the way, it's not true that AI won't surrender to you if your integrity is infamous. I was infamous when Yang surrendered to me.
akaoni posted 07-26-99 03:44 AM ET
I have also had Yang sign peace treaties and pacts with me as Lal, and additionally surrender once. In all cases I was more than double him on the power bars. It was a thinker game, so maybe that has to do with the different diplomacy outcomes.
Akaoni
Colon posted 07-26-99 05:39 AM ET
Can I ask something ? When a faction is submessive (not necessarily during a war in which he's being defeated but while in pact or something like that) is there a way to profit from it ? It doesn't seem like it. Also, is the only time that another faction surrenders after such a war or is it possible to let someone surrender during a treaty or a pact ?
Thanx.
sandworm posted 07-29-99 11:09 AM ET
You can buy their size 1 cities dirt cheap, they'll give you any tech they produce, you can get loans.
GaryD posted 07-29-99 12:17 PM ET
Well I've never had one turn on me.
I wonder if it is because I treat them too well, give them all my tech, and a few cities etc.
Or whether it is because I don't often play higher than Talent (kept getting slaughtered on Librarian).
HolyWarrior posted 07-30-99 01:21 AM ET
Melkur, nerve stapling is still an atrocity, right with nerve gas. Even if you repeal the charter, once you use it on a faction, they will NEVER surrender to you.
ViVicdi posted 07-30-99 02:10 PM ET
Getting surrender is good because you get an automatic Pact with no strings and no alimony. Pacts receive DOUBLE trade income. And you don't have to put up with one-way exchanges to keep the Pact going, either.
Getting surrender is nigh impossible from a faction you have committed an atrocity against. It is also quite difficult if you use a faction's SE aversion. Miriam will surrender to Democracy, but not Knowledge. Morgan will not surrender to Planned. No doubt Deirdre won't surrender to FM.
Taking the SE preference seems to help, but I'm far less sure about that one.
Being armed to the unholy eye-teeth is also a great way to get surrender. Zak surrendered to me after I took 1 base, because halfway across the map my army of Garden Weasels (Shard Infantry) was mowing down Santiago (on Wealth, too, heh heh).
Submissive surrender is absolutely my favorite kind of Pact -- I've never been divorced and I already hate alimony! I'm an ally, not a Welfare State.
Incidentally, giving away bases you don't want to defend is a great way to keep Pact sibs happy.
Plato90s posted 07-30-99 03:28 PM ET
You should also know how to generate a submission.
Besides the usual "Sign the Pact or I will crush you", the way to get a faction you are warring with to surrender is to be nice. When you are attacking and crushing the enemy, sometimes they'll call and demand a technology.
You are probably thinking to yourself "Is that AI nuts?! I'm kicking his butt and he makes demands?"
But if the AI makes demands, it sometimes means they are ready to submit and require a gesture of goodwill. So give them that technology if you are confident you can still crush them. Many times, they'll be so grateful they surrender.
Zoetrope posted 08-04-99 06:51 AM ET
Colon: Morgan was in Treaty but didn't want a Pact with me, so I menaced him with the verbal flyswat, and he was so happy to offer surrender.
Series II posted 08-04-99 09:00 AM ET
Being aligned like the faction you are waring with DOES help a lot. I usually try and switch right before a major attack to the same SE as who I am about to take 4+ cities from. This helps them surrender.
One turn I got a submissive pact from the Gaian's after taking their 5 land cities. Than switched SE and got a truce (that was all I was wanting) from the UOP after taking 3 of their cities.
I think switching SE makes some things a bit to easy. There chould be a higher cost or some limitations on it. The supply crawler buy is another weakness of the current SE system.
ViVicdi posted 08-04-99 12:09 PM ET
SE settings shouldn't "take effect" until next turn. If you're going to cash your crawlers in at higher values at least you should have to pay the 40 bucks for the privelige.
Also AI's should "remember" your SE settings for about 10 turns, and judge you by the setting used the majority of that time.
Series II posted 08-04-99 12:41 PM ET
You should have a SE History. If you have been planned/Demo for 200+ years that is what the AI should consider you to be.
Anyone use random personality and random adgenda. Sometimes makes for more interesteing and humorous games.
RedFred posted 08-04-99 09:12 PM ET
Great thread!
I am finding that the AI surrenders much more than I have any right to expect, and I am happy to learn the reasons why.
Perhaps Zoetrope's item 9 above is the biggest revealation for me. I often get factions surrendering to me even though we don't have a common border and I don't have any troops on foriegn territory. (They never have any cause to backstab me, so I've never had one turn.)
Another cool thing with surrendered factions that hasn't been discussed is that they often give you lots of units. I once built a SP with recycled units from Yang. The votes can help too.
In my last game I played Morgan. Not only did two factions surrender to me despite minimal aggression on my part; I was also able to keep a stable pact with Zak and Dierdre (number 2 and 3 on the depth chart to my number 1) throughout the game. You bet I stuck with Green/Knowledge SE choices, and a lily-white rep.
This was transcend ironman level with random map and pretty much default settings. I always shoot for the victory by transcendance.
My game ended rather abruptly when the Spartans surprise surrendered on me. Maybe they figured out that my other submissive pact sister, Miriam was getting a good deal.
The Gaians had wiped out two factions. I was pacted with factions 2 and 3. Factions 4 and 5 surrendered to me. As a builder guy, I achieved a kind of dubious victory: by "conquest" in 2280.
I got to see the text the game throws out for a conquest victory for the first time!
Has anyone else managed to pact with the second and third most powerful factions and keep the pact going for over 100 years?
Has anyone else gone the "peaceful conquest" route to victory?
Plato90s posted 08-04-99 09:32 PM ET
#2 and #3 inevitably hate you. The only way is to bind them to submissive acts early on and then build them up to the #2 and #3 position yourself. Even an wimpy AI can do well once they have lots of tech and money that you donate to them.
RedFred posted 08-04-99 10:20 PM ET
Plato90s: my feeling about factions 2 and 3 was until very recently the same as yours. This last game seemed to break all the rules. I didn't get a submissive pact with Zak & Dierdre, just a regular pact. I didn't build these guys up to 2 and 3. One of them was #1 at the time the pact was formed. I passed the Gaians a bit later.
The surrender/submissive pact sisters were Santiago and Miriam.
I am still scratching my head about why they both (Zac & Dierdre) liked me so much. We were 1,2 and 3 for over 100 years. I had a long border with the Gaians (think Chile and Argentina) and I kept waiting for an invasion that never came.
PawtheUnstuk posted 08-08-99 07:16 AM ET
lol, "submissive...that's what you think" is NOT a good way to start a post. lmao.
In any event, this has happened to me before to. I personally think it sort of makes sense but it is still annoying.
BTW, one way to take advantage oft he AI is this: capture everything butt heir last city and send a couple of units around that. EVen if you have no chance in hell of t aking the city. (ie., he's yang and has Synth Soldiers while you have scout patrols) he'll still often surrendur. This can be handy early on when you may only have one or two cities and can't actually conquer your opponent.
Alex
PawtheUnstuk posted 08-08-99 07:22 AM ET
If you commit atrocities, the other factions will hate you, pure and simple. It was always that way, and at some point I think they realesed a patch saying 10 minor atrocities = 1 planetbuster/ everyone declares war.
And if you nerve staple a conquered base they will t hrow a **** fit.
Alex
Sector7G posted 08-11-99 03:37 AM ET
Pawtheunstuk,
"lol, "submissive...that's what you think" is NOT a good way to start a post. lmao."
this comming from a guy with a handle like that..
and what would you suggest...after all you replied to it and so did 30 others (shrug)
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Author	Topic: Submissive.......Thats What You Think
Sector7G	posted 07-20-99 04:26 AM ET Ok, I was mowing over the Spartans (after she thought she could bully me) It came down to her and a few bases left. So I decided to accept her surrender (why I dont know..she was no use to me) So later on I was mowing over the Hive and OUCH..whats that in my back...a Spartan knife Just a warning to you players out there.. Watch your back!?! Why would this happen (IMHO It should NOT)
whizkid	posted 07-20-99 07:19 AM ET How do you guys actually made the opposition surrender? I see no indication of the option to demand surrender, nor can I find it in the manual too.
Series II	posted 07-20-99 08:34 AM ET Other factions just surrender when you have really beaten them. THey call you up and: 1) demand something or they will destroy you with their last scout rover 2) once you decline they offer a blood truce 3) once you reject the blood truce they say "OK, you win. I am hjopeless. If you will not destroy me I will serve you." It goes something like that. Sometimes you can initiate this by telling them to give you something or you will squash them like a bug.
SMAniaC	posted 07-20-99 09:18 AM ET I have recently discovered that by demanding a pact for not crushing them like a bug, they have surrendered if they accept the pact. So there is an option to demand factions to surrender. I agree the manual is too short.
JayPegg	posted 07-20-99 09:26 AM ET Sector~ You're saying that the spartans (submisive) turned on you? Did by any chance you use a lot of probe teams against them or demand bases/money? People have found them to renounce their pact if they're pushed around a little too much. Every notice how miraim will never surrender to zak with knowledge? I pulled a blitzgreig on here after I had got every tech, I managed to kick her off her contient left with a size 3 and 7 base. And after a hail of missiles she was left undefended and not willing to surrender (?). I took the size but still no surrender. ~kelso
sandworm	posted 07-20-99 09:45 AM ET You don't even have to push them around. If you let them build up to a level that the "AI" thinks it can take you (yeah, right) they'll renounce pact and attack (damn Yang). It's usually a sneak attack.
Sector7G	posted 07-20-99 09:30 PM ET Jaypegg: I was using attrocities but I repeled UN charter so that shouldn't have been a problem. sandworm: Come to think of it I think the Hive pulled that one me too.. IMHO...(should be)...Once submissive Always submissive
Mongoose	posted 07-20-99 11:43 PM ET Just like Germany after Versailles?
Zoetrope	posted 07-21-99 12:55 AM ET Triggers for the AI's willingness to surrender include the following: (1) Of course you have proven that you're much stronger than they and can reach their bases. (2) Don't commit atrocities. (3) It helps if you have the social engineering that they love, but this isn't always as necessary or sufficient as you might expect in the circumstances. (4) Your Probe team approaches the last big University base, after you've bought one of their biggest bases. (5) You send an Empath rover toward Deirdre's last mindworm. (6) You've saved Morgan's neck from the Believers by swapping his endangered bases for some deep in your territory. Then you demand that he be your Friend else you'll swat him. (7) Yang realises he's beaten. (8) You're the Hive; Lal can't stand your Police State no matter how much of a hiding you give him, but you want him to survive to do some research for you, so you go to Frontier government to negotiate terms. (9) You never give in to demands, but you do give gifts to your weaker friends; if attacked during a declared vendetta, or betrayed, you hit swiftly and hard on multiple fronts, taking several enemy bases. (You anticipated an attack, so you built a strike force.) This can encourage the AI to think you're tough but decent, so when you have them on their knees, they see the advantage to siding with you instead of continuing against you. Careful diplomacy has sometimes had my main rival, the number two power, offer a mutual defence Pact. As long as the common threat remained, they've held their side of the baragain, even when my SE was constantly anathema to them. Animal psychology isn't trivial, but it sure is fun.
Zoetrope	posted 07-21-99 01:05 AM ET Example of a weak submissive pact partner turning against me: During a comms blackout, I sent a probe team to buy one of Zak's bases that had a Project I wanted. When comms were restored, he declared vendetta. So it doesn't have to be an atrocity, or repeated bullying, or a return to arrogance. One minor incident can trigger an angry renunciation.
Melkur	posted 07-23-99 07:57 AM ET Folks ~ I've recently been playing as Santiago had two strange experiences, both involving Morgan... 1) I was slowly devouring his territory and I was using Nerve Stapling to pacify newly conquered bases. When I got to his last base and had killed its last defender and was just about to enter the base, I tried the usual get-someone-to-surrender tactics and he wouldn't even return my call. Previously, the only recent contact I had had with him during the vendetta had been basically, well, taunts from him (mood: Obstinate) saying that I would pay for my crimes against humanity. Apparently nerve stapling a conquered base is enough to really piss him off. So I just killed him. However, not having all that tech that he had developed screwed me over for the rest of the game. 2) I was on a small continent with Morgan and Miriam and had somehow gotten into a Vendetta with Miriam early in the game. I had built up a large army of impact rovers and suddenly I start getting phone calls from Morgan showing a Submissive mood. Quite frankly, I didn't know what to make of it. Now that I think of it, though, his territory was located between Miriam's and mine and we both had large armies. Perhaps he was looking for the more acceptable protector. Can the AI really be that subtle? ~ Melkur
Series II	posted 07-23-99 08:30 AM ET I was at war with a lot of factions (Yang being one of them. I called them all up to try and get some of the wars resolved and Yang surrendered. He was on the opposite side of the world from me and I had never fired a shot at him, but I had a huge military and he had none.
Series II	posted 07-23-99 08:31 AM ET Another thing, I find that being the only person with a planet buster is an excellent way to get peace and submissive pact patrners.
Idunnoreally	posted 07-23-99 12:32 PM ET I don't know about having a PB and getting a more submissive reply from the AI. In one of the games I played the Spartans, I just captured two bases from Yang. So I stationed PBs in one of the captured bases, instead of getting submissive reply I was getting threats from Yang?!!! I was tired of threats from Yang anyway so I launched them all!! Also after I committed atrocities on Yang, I keep getting "an urgent message" from him. When I chose to close the channels, he still was able to get his message through saying I will pay for my crimes.....yadayadayada. So what's the deal here?!!!!!!
dilbert	posted 07-23-99 07:04 PM ET More notes on diplomacy: - Yang never surrenders to Lal, and vice versa. They are also the factions who are most unwilling to surrender. - Yang is also unlikely to surrender to Gaians, but will always surrender to Morgan and Zak. - Yang and Lal are also the biggest a**holes in the game. They will not sign any peace treaty with a faction stronger than theirs. - Miriam will never surrender to Zak in knowledge. - But Believers do surrender to other factions very easily, especially to the Hive. Two times when I was playing Yang on transcend level, she surrendered even I had no forces deployed against her! - Yang is usually friendly to Gaians. Maybe he was once Deirdre's lover? - Deirdre will terminate any pact with you if you go on a conquest tour. She will also do the same if your faction is stronger than hers. - As Morgan, you can usually sign a peace treaty or pact with the Believers. - Morgan is the most sneaky one. He will frame you with his probe teams even if you are pacted with him. - When you first encounter Santiago, she always demands something and will declare vendetta if refused. However, her demands are usually acceptable. So if you agree to her, you can sometimes even sign a pact with her. - Zak will always declare vendetta if you stay in wealth long enough. However, if you choose knowledge, he can be your pact brother from beginning to the end, regardless how powerful and bloodthirsty you are. - AI factions will never surrender if you committed enough atrocities so that your reputation is infamous.
Lambo	posted 07-26-99 03:21 AM ET there was this one time when i was at war wi th yang since the beginning of the game but never attacked him. i conquered the rest of the world but since Yang was on a far away continent and not expanding i decided to play simcity with my empire and let him live for a while. however, Yang soon sent his troops against me but as soon as his troops met mine he sent me a com-message and surrendered. i never even fired a shot at him! weird...
Lambo	posted 07-26-99 03:23 AM ET by the way, it's not true that AI won't surrender to you if your integrity is infamous. I was infamous when Yang surrendered to me.
akaoni	posted 07-26-99 03:44 AM ET I have also had Yang sign peace treaties and pacts with me as Lal, and additionally surrender once. In all cases I was more than double him on the power bars. It was a thinker game, so maybe that has to do with the different diplomacy outcomes. Akaoni
Colon	posted 07-26-99 05:39 AM ET Can I ask something ? When a faction is submessive (not necessarily during a war in which he's being defeated but while in pact or something like that) is there a way to profit from it ? It doesn't seem like it. Also, is the only time that another faction surrenders after such a war or is it possible to let someone surrender during a treaty or a pact ? Thanx.
sandworm	posted 07-29-99 11:09 AM ET You can buy their size 1 cities dirt cheap, they'll give you any tech they produce, you can get loans.
GaryD	posted 07-29-99 12:17 PM ET Well I've never had one turn on me. I wonder if it is because I treat them too well, give them all my tech, and a few cities etc. Or whether it is because I don't often play higher than Talent (kept getting slaughtered on Librarian).
HolyWarrior	posted 07-30-99 01:21 AM ET Melkur, nerve stapling is still an atrocity, right with nerve gas. Even if you repeal the charter, once you use it on a faction, they will NEVER surrender to you.
ViVicdi	posted 07-30-99 02:10 PM ET Getting surrender is good because you get an automatic Pact with no strings and no alimony. Pacts receive DOUBLE trade income. And you don't have to put up with one-way exchanges to keep the Pact going, either. Getting surrender is nigh impossible from a faction you have committed an atrocity against. It is also quite difficult if you use a faction's SE aversion. Miriam will surrender to Democracy, but not Knowledge. Morgan will not surrender to Planned. No doubt Deirdre won't surrender to FM. Taking the SE preference seems to help, but I'm far less sure about that one. Being armed to the unholy eye-teeth is also a great way to get surrender. Zak surrendered to me after I took 1 base, because halfway across the map my army of Garden Weasels (Shard Infantry) was mowing down Santiago (on Wealth, too, heh heh). Submissive surrender is absolutely my favorite kind of Pact -- I've never been divorced and I already hate alimony! I'm an ally, not a Welfare State. Incidentally, giving away bases you don't want to defend is a great way to keep Pact sibs happy.
Plato90s	posted 07-30-99 03:28 PM ET You should also know how to generate a submission. Besides the usual "Sign the Pact or I will crush you", the way to get a faction you are warring with to surrender is to be nice. When you are attacking and crushing the enemy, sometimes they'll call and demand a technology. You are probably thinking to yourself "Is that AI nuts?! I'm kicking his butt and he makes demands?" But if the AI makes demands, it sometimes means they are ready to submit and require a gesture of goodwill. So give them that technology if you are confident you can still crush them. Many times, they'll be so grateful they surrender.
Zoetrope	posted 08-04-99 06:51 AM ET Colon: Morgan was in Treaty but didn't want a Pact with me, so I menaced him with the verbal flyswat, and he was so happy to offer surrender.
Series II	posted 08-04-99 09:00 AM ET Being aligned like the faction you are waring with DOES help a lot. I usually try and switch right before a major attack to the same SE as who I am about to take 4+ cities from. This helps them surrender. One turn I got a submissive pact from the Gaian's after taking their 5 land cities. Than switched SE and got a truce (that was all I was wanting) from the UOP after taking 3 of their cities. I think switching SE makes some things a bit to easy. There chould be a higher cost or some limitations on it. The supply crawler buy is another weakness of the current SE system.
ViVicdi	posted 08-04-99 12:09 PM ET SE settings shouldn't "take effect" until next turn. If you're going to cash your crawlers in at higher values at least you should have to pay the 40 bucks for the privelige. Also AI's should "remember" your SE settings for about 10 turns, and judge you by the setting used the majority of that time.
Series II	posted 08-04-99 12:41 PM ET You should have a SE History. If you have been planned/Demo for 200+ years that is what the AI should consider you to be. Anyone use random personality and random adgenda. Sometimes makes for more interesteing and humorous games.
RedFred	posted 08-04-99 09:12 PM ET Great thread! I am finding that the AI surrenders much more than I have any right to expect, and I am happy to learn the reasons why. Perhaps Zoetrope's item 9 above is the biggest revealation for me. I often get factions surrendering to me even though we don't have a common border and I don't have any troops on foriegn territory. (They never have any cause to backstab me, so I've never had one turn.) Another cool thing with surrendered factions that hasn't been discussed is that they often give you lots of units. I once built a SP with recycled units from Yang. The votes can help too. In my last game I played Morgan. Not only did two factions surrender to me despite minimal aggression on my part; I was also able to keep a stable pact with Zak and Dierdre (number 2 and 3 on the depth chart to my number 1) throughout the game. You bet I stuck with Green/Knowledge SE choices, and a lily-white rep. This was transcend ironman level with random map and pretty much default settings. I always shoot for the victory by transcendance. My game ended rather abruptly when the Spartans surprise surrendered on me. Maybe they figured out that my other submissive pact sister, Miriam was getting a good deal. The Gaians had wiped out two factions. I was pacted with factions 2 and 3. Factions 4 and 5 surrendered to me. As a builder guy, I achieved a kind of dubious victory: by "conquest" in 2280. I got to see the text the game throws out for a conquest victory for the first time! Has anyone else managed to pact with the second and third most powerful factions and keep the pact going for over 100 years? Has anyone else gone the "peaceful conquest" route to victory?
Plato90s	posted 08-04-99 09:32 PM ET #2 and #3 inevitably hate you. The only way is to bind them to submissive acts early on and then build them up to the #2 and #3 position yourself. Even an wimpy AI can do well once they have lots of tech and money that you donate to them.
RedFred	posted 08-04-99 10:20 PM ET Plato90s: my feeling about factions 2 and 3 was until very recently the same as yours. This last game seemed to break all the rules. I didn't get a submissive pact with Zak & Dierdre, just a regular pact. I didn't build these guys up to 2 and 3. One of them was #1 at the time the pact was formed. I passed the Gaians a bit later. The surrender/submissive pact sisters were Santiago and Miriam. I am still scratching my head about why they both (Zac & Dierdre) liked me so much. We were 1,2 and 3 for over 100 years. I had a long border with the Gaians (think Chile and Argentina) and I kept waiting for an invasion that never came.
PawtheUnstuk	posted 08-08-99 07:16 AM ET lol, "submissive...that's what you think" is NOT a good way to start a post. lmao. In any event, this has happened to me before to. I personally think it sort of makes sense but it is still annoying. BTW, one way to take advantage oft he AI is this: capture everything butt heir last city and send a couple of units around that. EVen if you have no chance in hell of t aking the city. (ie., he's yang and has Synth Soldiers while you have scout patrols) he'll still often surrendur. This can be handy early on when you may only have one or two cities and can't actually conquer your opponent. Alex
PawtheUnstuk	posted 08-08-99 07:22 AM ET If you commit atrocities, the other factions will hate you, pure and simple. It was always that way, and at some point I think they realesed a patch saying 10 minor atrocities = 1 planetbuster/ everyone declares war. And if you nerve staple a conquered base they will t hrow a **** fit. Alex
Sector7G	posted 08-11-99 03:37 AM ET Pawtheunstuk, "lol, "submissive...that's what you think" is NOT a good way to start a post. lmao." this comming from a guy with a handle like that.. and what would you suggest...after all you replied to it and so did 30 others (shrug)