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Author Topic:   The best way for Social Enginnering

itdoesntfit posted 07-13-99 06:36 PM ET
I have been playing alpha centauri for 6 1/2 months yet I never can balance my social engineering. If I switch to free market I have a -ecology, if I have planned I have major -energy and tech, but if I switched to green, everyone is against me (except for Deidre of course). Then if I pick power, CEO Morgan, Zakhorv, Deidre, and the Brother Lal hate me. If I choose knowledge everyone, but Zakhorv hates me. If I choose wealth only CEO likes the idea. When I choose Democracy, everyone, but Brother Lal hates me, but if I choose Fundamentalism, Lal hates me and it is to inefficient. Police State is a joke. So what should I choose if I like war, tech, and expansion?

Krushala posted 07-13-99 10:23 PM ET
That's how the game was designed. There is no true balance, just as in the world today. goverment choice will please some people, but not others. It steers you to ally with similar factions and stomp out the ones that hate you. And you can build cloning vats to knock out the negatives for thought control and power. Can't beat that.
itdoesntfit posted 07-14-99 12:11 AM ET
That was deep+
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Zoetrope posted 07-14-99 12:27 AM ET
It's rare that I find myself in such a bad situation that only one faction will pact with or support me - especially as the Peacekeepers.
In my previous game (version 4, Thinker), I was Sister Indira of the Peacekeepers, and my neighbor Deirdre hated me from the beginning although I was Green. She launched several missiles without warning or provocation and invaded my land.
OTOH, Morgan loved me even though I was Green.
Diplomacy in SMAC requires experience - you gradually learn how much to give, how hard you can push, and how to manipulate the other factions.
Subsequently, I pounded Deirdre until she had only two sea bases, and one landbased mindworm. She tried to tough it out, thinking her worm could recover a land base, but when I outfitted an Empath Rover she surrendered, apparently realising that her worm would now be useless.
I was a Democracy and became number one in the overal rankings. The Believers, who were number two and therefore would normally despise me totally, were being simultaneously attacked by the Spartans (moderately strong) and Hive, and pleaded for my help, offering Pact plus several hundred Energy. I was very surprised but delighted, and set about smashing the Spartans into submission, and retaking bases that the Hive had won from the Believers. I then handed those bases to Deirdre, who was Pacted with Miriam. Deirdre immediately declared Vendetta against Miriam!
So the Believers' main friend became me, and they never tried to impose their system of government on my faction, I suppose because I was much too useful to them as an ally, and they didn't want me as an enemy. This was refreshingly rational.
(Hmm, I'm beginning to think that the ladies in SMAC 4.0 are more comfortable negotiating with a powerful leader of their own gender. I wonder whether that has been coded in?)
In the end, I called for a vote for Supreme Leader, when the PKs, Believers and Hive were all still of similar military power, and everyone voted for me, except the Hive. (You wouldn't really expect the Hive and Peacekeepers to get along, as their favorite systems of government are anathema to each other.)
Against the other two major powers, Yang must have decided that discretion was the better part of valor, as he accepted the vote.
How did I keep balance between the other competing interests, for example the Believers and my second Pact partner (after Morgan), the University? It's important when you gain valuable Treaties or Pacts with two warring factions, that you request they make peace, otherwise they'll demand that you pick sides. Watch for fresh outbreaks of hostilities between them, and request the aggressor to bury the hatchet again.
If you play the Peacekeepers as a balancing faction to the others (pity about Yang!) then the PKs can fulfil their eponymous role.
Also, if you get the other factions' commlink frequencies before they do, e.g. before Council is called - which you can achieve by negotiation or because you built the Empath Guild - then you can trade techs to your own very great advantage.
Never give key scientific or military techs, or anything that allows them to build a Project that you want. (This is very fair because the other factions won't share tech that allows you to compete for a Project they're building.) Resist extortion unless the other faction is an immmediate and overwhelming threat, because eventually they will respect your strength.
But otherwise, do trade frequently, especially to gain tech at a comparable or superior level. Trade on mutually beneficial terms strengthens friendships.
If you need tech urgently, then don't be too mean to buy it. In my latest game as the Hive, I handed over 150 energy for each of several techs held by the Believers, but these advances were vital to my economy and military, and have enabled me to leap ahead of all other factions in research.
itdoesntfit posted 07-14-99 12:56 AM ET
Something is wrong with your game. Usually the Pk's have Deidre and Morgan, nearly guaranteed. You should try reinstalling. There is no way you can make peace with the Believer's--no matter what. I thrashed their number 1 country from level 3 once, and with their capital taken and all but one city, I tryed to contact her, but she refused. Until she is dead, she'll never talk to you. Plus with Peacekeeper's and my strategy, who needs friends?
Hamlet posted 07-14-99 06:25 AM ET
Yup...I agree...its strange.
As a PK, I've never ever gone to war with Deidre. Even when I choose free market she just ignores me and if I'm green, she practically licks my boots. Same with Morgan although I sometimes wipe him out for the heck of it.
I find that the best social choice for PKs in the late midgame is to build the Cloning Vats and choose Power. Then proceed to wipe out your enemies. At other times, I find that Democracy-Green-Knowledge works best.
Beta1 posted 07-14-99 12:05 PM ET
I wouldn't go as far as saying theres something wrong with his game - if you read this board you'll find loads of examples of things that some players always experience and others never do. There are other reasons that affect whether a faction likes you or not (eg relative power/tech etc.).
The main problem is war AND tech is dont have the same good SE choices - what you need is one set for research then change to another to kick ass then go back to the first.
I guess your a spartan as you complain about everyone else but the colonel so...
1 : start simple/simple/simple (ie initial settings) until you get particle weapons.
2 : go fundy/police and churn out those rovers and kick everyone off your continent.
3 : build creches and go demo/police to pop boom.
4 : never choose power - the -10% industry will kill you.
5 : Try and become dominat early and sponge tech off everyone else - then FM/knowledge are irrelvant
itdoesntfit posted 07-14-99 10:36 PM ET
Let me give Hamlet a hint:
Instead of wiping out the cash strapped Morganites, steal their money. Save, and keep it that way until you get money. After your first promotion, your probe team will move one speed faster. Then you can steal lots and lots of money. You can sabotage and incite drone riots, when your probe teams are most advanced. When you get to veteran, elite, or commando status, try to frame an enemy, always saving before you try it. Always frame your enemies so you'll get an ally for free.
sandals posted 07-15-99 02:09 PM ET
Hamlet:
>...try to frame an enemy, always saving
>before you try it.
Save and reload isn't a strategy tip, it is a cheat.
The key to framing somebody else is to frame someone you already have a vendetta with. That way, you've only made one enemy if you fail.
But I usually don't probe friends with the idea that I'll frame someone else - it is usually too risky, unless I can tell that they are about to declare war anyway or I am about to declare war.
sandals posted 07-15-99 02:10 PM ET
Sorry Hamlet - that comment should be directed at itdoesntfit.
itdoesntfit posted 07-15-99 07:49 PM ET
It isn't cheating.
Wank posted 07-15-99 08:57 PM ET
Um, oh wait, it is cheating! It's like being able to go back in time to say, kill Itdoesntfit's mother. Now while most of us might be happy at that, we would then have to find someone else to make fun of .
Wank
Vinny posted 07-15-99 08:57 PM ET
Well that's another reason why it's harder to play an ironman game.
Hamlet posted 07-16-99 04:41 AM ET
I agree that it would be better to have kept him as a ready source of credits but in that particular game he had really, really, really iritated me :-)
So I flattened him.
I try not to frame people as the risks aren't usually worth the benefits. I'm usually no 1 in tech anyway which negates the use of stealing tech.
I don't cheat...takes the fun out of the game. And SMAC is pretty easy (compared to Civ2) so its even less necessary to cheat.
note: I have no wish to compare and contrast Civ2 and SMAC...I've seen some pretty nasty arguments on these forums. I loved Civ2 and I love SMAC. However, I hold this truth to be inalienable: that I find SMAC easier to play...maybe its cos I was a kid of 14 when I played Civ2 :-) With age comes wisdom.
"And then all Hell broke loose"- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Beta1 posted 07-16-99 06:31 AM ET
But if we went back in time to kill itdosntfit's mother then he wouldn't be born so se wouldnt want to go back in time to kill her so we wouldnt go back in time so he would be born so we would go back in time.
I think I'll stop now
Beta-1
Very confused
quizara tafwid posted 07-16-99 08:46 AM ET
What really happens is you go back in time to wack itsoesntfit's mother but instead engage in sexual congress with her and create the very problem that sent you back in time in the first place
Earwicker posted 07-16-99 11:17 AM ET
What a horrible thought for the morning.
Beta1 posted 07-16-99 12:48 PM ET
If thats not an argument for family planning I dont know what is
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Author	Topic: The best way for Social Enginnering
itdoesntfit	posted 07-13-99 06:36 PM ET I have been playing alpha centauri for 6 1/2 months yet I never can balance my social engineering. If I switch to free market I have a -ecology, if I have planned I have major -energy and tech, but if I switched to green, everyone is against me (except for Deidre of course). Then if I pick power, CEO Morgan, Zakhorv, Deidre, and the Brother Lal hate me. If I choose knowledge everyone, but Zakhorv hates me. If I choose wealth only CEO likes the idea. When I choose Democracy, everyone, but Brother Lal hates me, but if I choose Fundamentalism, Lal hates me and it is to inefficient. Police State is a joke. So what should I choose if I like war, tech, and expansion?
Krushala	posted 07-13-99 10:23 PM ET That's how the game was designed. There is no true balance, just as in the world today. goverment choice will please some people, but not others. It steers you to ally with similar factions and stomp out the ones that hate you. And you can build cloning vats to knock out the negatives for thought control and power. Can't beat that.
itdoesntfit	posted 07-14-99 12:11 AM ET That was deep+ \| \| \\|/
Zoetrope	posted 07-14-99 12:27 AM ET It's rare that I find myself in such a bad situation that only one faction will pact with or support me - especially as the Peacekeepers. In my previous game (version 4, Thinker), I was Sister Indira of the Peacekeepers, and my neighbor Deirdre hated me from the beginning although I was Green. She launched several missiles without warning or provocation and invaded my land. OTOH, Morgan loved me even though I was Green. Diplomacy in SMAC requires experience - you gradually learn how much to give, how hard you can push, and how to manipulate the other factions. Subsequently, I pounded Deirdre until she had only two sea bases, and one landbased mindworm. She tried to tough it out, thinking her worm could recover a land base, but when I outfitted an Empath Rover she surrendered, apparently realising that her worm would now be useless. I was a Democracy and became number one in the overal rankings. The Believers, who were number two and therefore would normally despise me totally, were being simultaneously attacked by the Spartans (moderately strong) and Hive, and pleaded for my help, offering Pact plus several hundred Energy. I was very surprised but delighted, and set about smashing the Spartans into submission, and retaking bases that the Hive had won from the Believers. I then handed those bases to Deirdre, who was Pacted with Miriam. Deirdre immediately declared Vendetta against Miriam! So the Believers' main friend became me, and they never tried to impose their system of government on my faction, I suppose because I was much too useful to them as an ally, and they didn't want me as an enemy. This was refreshingly rational. (Hmm, I'm beginning to think that the ladies in SMAC 4.0 are more comfortable negotiating with a powerful leader of their own gender. I wonder whether that has been coded in?) In the end, I called for a vote for Supreme Leader, when the PKs, Believers and Hive were all still of similar military power, and everyone voted for me, except the Hive. (You wouldn't really expect the Hive and Peacekeepers to get along, as their favorite systems of government are anathema to each other.) Against the other two major powers, Yang must have decided that discretion was the better part of valor, as he accepted the vote. How did I keep balance between the other competing interests, for example the Believers and my second Pact partner (after Morgan), the University? It's important when you gain valuable Treaties or Pacts with two warring factions, that you request they make peace, otherwise they'll demand that you pick sides. Watch for fresh outbreaks of hostilities between them, and request the aggressor to bury the hatchet again. If you play the Peacekeepers as a balancing faction to the others (pity about Yang!) then the PKs can fulfil their eponymous role. Also, if you get the other factions' commlink frequencies before they do, e.g. before Council is called - which you can achieve by negotiation or because you built the Empath Guild - then you can trade techs to your own very great advantage. Never give key scientific or military techs, or anything that allows them to build a Project that you want. (This is very fair because the other factions won't share tech that allows you to compete for a Project they're building.) Resist extortion unless the other faction is an immmediate and overwhelming threat, because eventually they will respect your strength. But otherwise, do trade frequently, especially to gain tech at a comparable or superior level. Trade on mutually beneficial terms strengthens friendships. If you need tech urgently, then don't be too mean to buy it. In my latest game as the Hive, I handed over 150 energy for each of several techs held by the Believers, but these advances were vital to my economy and military, and have enabled me to leap ahead of all other factions in research.
itdoesntfit	posted 07-14-99 12:56 AM ET Something is wrong with your game. Usually the Pk's have Deidre and Morgan, nearly guaranteed. You should try reinstalling. There is no way you can make peace with the Believer's--no matter what. I thrashed their number 1 country from level 3 once, and with their capital taken and all but one city, I tryed to contact her, but she refused. Until she is dead, she'll never talk to you. Plus with Peacekeeper's and my strategy, who needs friends?
Hamlet	posted 07-14-99 06:25 AM ET Yup...I agree...its strange. As a PK, I've never ever gone to war with Deidre. Even when I choose free market she just ignores me and if I'm green, she practically licks my boots. Same with Morgan although I sometimes wipe him out for the heck of it. I find that the best social choice for PKs in the late midgame is to build the Cloning Vats and choose Power. Then proceed to wipe out your enemies. At other times, I find that Democracy-Green-Knowledge works best.
Beta1	posted 07-14-99 12:05 PM ET I wouldn't go as far as saying theres something wrong with his game - if you read this board you'll find loads of examples of things that some players always experience and others never do. There are other reasons that affect whether a faction likes you or not (eg relative power/tech etc.). The main problem is war AND tech is dont have the same good SE choices - what you need is one set for research then change to another to kick ass then go back to the first. I guess your a spartan as you complain about everyone else but the colonel so... 1 : start simple/simple/simple (ie initial settings) until you get particle weapons. 2 : go fundy/police and churn out those rovers and kick everyone off your continent. 3 : build creches and go demo/police to pop boom. 4 : never choose power - the -10% industry will kill you. 5 : Try and become dominat early and sponge tech off everyone else - then FM/knowledge are irrelvant
itdoesntfit	posted 07-14-99 10:36 PM ET Let me give Hamlet a hint: Instead of wiping out the cash strapped Morganites, steal their money. Save, and keep it that way until you get money. After your first promotion, your probe team will move one speed faster. Then you can steal lots and lots of money. You can sabotage and incite drone riots, when your probe teams are most advanced. When you get to veteran, elite, or commando status, try to frame an enemy, always saving before you try it. Always frame your enemies so you'll get an ally for free.
sandals	posted 07-15-99 02:09 PM ET Hamlet: >...try to frame an enemy, always saving >before you try it. Save and reload isn't a strategy tip, it is a cheat. The key to framing somebody else is to frame someone you already have a vendetta with. That way, you've only made one enemy if you fail. But I usually don't probe friends with the idea that I'll frame someone else - it is usually too risky, unless I can tell that they are about to declare war anyway or I am about to declare war.
sandals	posted 07-15-99 02:10 PM ET Sorry Hamlet - that comment should be directed at itdoesntfit.
itdoesntfit	posted 07-15-99 07:49 PM ET It isn't cheating.
Wank	posted 07-15-99 08:57 PM ET Um, oh wait, it is cheating! It's like being able to go back in time to say, kill Itdoesntfit's mother. Now while most of us might be happy at that, we would then have to find someone else to make fun of . Wank
Vinny	posted 07-15-99 08:57 PM ET Well that's another reason why it's harder to play an ironman game.
Hamlet	posted 07-16-99 04:41 AM ET I agree that it would be better to have kept him as a ready source of credits but in that particular game he had really, really, really iritated me :-) So I flattened him. I try not to frame people as the risks aren't usually worth the benefits. I'm usually no 1 in tech anyway which negates the use of stealing tech. I don't cheat...takes the fun out of the game. And SMAC is pretty easy (compared to Civ2) so its even less necessary to cheat. note: I have no wish to compare and contrast Civ2 and SMAC...I've seen some pretty nasty arguments on these forums. I loved Civ2 and I love SMAC. However, I hold this truth to be inalienable: that I find SMAC easier to play...maybe its cos I was a kid of 14 when I played Civ2 :-) With age comes wisdom. "And then all Hell broke loose"- John Milton, Paradise Lost
Beta1	posted 07-16-99 06:31 AM ET But if we went back in time to kill itdosntfit's mother then he wouldn't be born so se wouldnt want to go back in time to kill her so we wouldnt go back in time so he would be born so we would go back in time. I think I'll stop now Beta-1 Very confused
quizara tafwid	posted 07-16-99 08:46 AM ET What really happens is you go back in time to wack itsoesntfit's mother but instead engage in sexual congress with her and create the very problem that sent you back in time in the first place
Earwicker	posted 07-16-99 11:17 AM ET What a horrible thought for the morning.
Beta1	posted 07-16-99 12:48 PM ET If thats not an argument for family planning I dont know what is