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Author Topic:   Suicide squads

Beta1 posted 06-07-99 08:39 AM ET
I remember seeing a autodestruct unit option somewhere. Does this damage neighbouring units - and how much?
Rackam posted 06-07-99 11:22 AM ET
It does
I was testing this out with a speeder. You have to put your best armour and weapon on it, singularity power plants are best, and then self distruct next to the offending unit. It will kill any unit next to it. But the real bonus is that you can even use these on those you have truce/treaty/pact with no diplomatic penality.
~Rackam the asteroid target
Natguy posted 06-07-99 12:12 PM ET
Cool!
I wondered what that was for...could you take a WHOLE lotta, say, scouts (something cheap) and destroy them all near an enemy unit and destroy it, or does it only work with top-of-the-notch units? (For early-mid game when I don't have cool stuff like that)
Rackam posted 06-07-99 12:55 PM ET
It seems to more you spend building the unit, the bigger the bang.
~Rackam
Beta1 posted 06-07-99 04:41 PM ET
Rackam - so I was right about your secret weapon.
I might have to try this out, whats the effect like on units in cities?
Ambro2000 posted 06-07-99 07:59 PM ET
I think it depends on what type off reactor you have. The bigger the reactor the bigger the BANG
Rackam posted 06-08-99 07:40 AM ET
I've done some more testing (on Yang) and it seems that self-distruct damage is affected by the weapon as well as the reactor.
eg, a scout, fission reactor and hand weapons will not do much damage as a scout, fission reactor and singularity laser.
Also, bases tend to protect units from the explosion. Best used on colony pods and probe teams.
The design I've been using is this -
speeder
best reactor available
best weapon available
no armour
cloaking
drop pods
~Rackam
Beta1 posted 06-08-99 10:21 AM ET
The question is the damage done worth sacrificing the unit for - I think a top-of-the-range speeder is probably better used as an assault unit than as a bomb. If bases protect units then it becomes even more pointless- if I want to blow up colony pods I might as well just attack it with the unit.
Plato90s posted 06-08-99 12:25 PM ET
I think the point is you can self-destruct units in the territory of factions you haven't declared war on yet. So you may have a Truce with the Believers but still detonate a few bombs in their territory.
Todd Hawks posted 06-08-99 12:26 PM ET
Beta1:
This may be right, but if you can use them without diplomatic penalty (didn't test this but Rackam said so) then it may be useful.
Rackam:
Does "no diplomatic penalty" mean that you can use them against pact brothers without cancelling the pact or does it just mean that your reputation won't suffer? (no access at the moment so I can't test it)
Beta1 posted 06-09-99 07:10 AM ET
I suppose that could be useful - knocking out enemy colony pods for example, but I usually go after any neighbours very aggressively so I dont worry about diplomatic penalties too much. If you are have a friendship agreement with a faction simply putting your units into their territory will wind them up.
Rackam posted 06-09-99 09:50 AM ET
Beta1 - True, but one of these will destroy 'all' units adjacent to it when it explodes, assuming it is powerfull enough. A missle (which actually costs more to build) will only kill one.
Todd Hawks - I had a peace treaty with Miriam in one game, and I wiped out most of her military using these with zero effect to my reputation or my diplomatic status.
~Rackam
Beta1 posted 06-09-99 10:12 AM ET
Rackam - It may kill all the units around it but you still lose a pretty useful unit. If you drop in a hovertank (esp an elite one) with best weapon on it it should be able to kill most of the units surrounding it. If your close enough to provide air support, stick a plane above it and it should survive to the next turn when you can flatten loads more units.... OK so this incurs diplomatic penalties if your not already at war but if you really want you can still activate the self destruct later.
One other question - does a damaged unit explode with the same force as an intact one?
If so hitting the big red button might be useful in situations where unsupported units are heavily out-numbered.
Rackam posted 06-09-99 10:25 AM ET
"does a damaged unit explode with the same force as an intact one?"
I haven't tested this yet. I'll post when I have some data
As to losing a usefull unit, I don't use speeders for conquest. With Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier, I use Clean Psi Gravship (elite ?-?-16*4 deep radar, clean) and Cloaked Psi Hovertank (elite ?-?-4*4 cloaking, anti-grav).
~Rackam
laurens posted 06-09-99 10:40 AM ET
Rackam: That is my favourite style too!
But hope that those are not your only units coz missiles make a mincemeat out of them in no time.
Natguy posted 06-09-99 11:33 AM ET
Don't missiles tend to make mincemeat out of just about everything?
And what about conquest before you have Gravships and Hovertanks?
sandworm posted 06-09-99 03:16 PM ET
So autodestruct could be used on multiple adjacent stacks of angry mindworms, as a last resort, when you don't have enough experienced/psi units to destroy each stack individually, and would you get the energy credits for killing them?
Uhh, convoluted, but the question is all there.
sandworm
Rackam posted 06-10-99 05:59 AM ET
laurens - No, I use (elite 1-<(best)t>-1 AAA, Trance) in bases.
sandworm - Yes, that would work.
Conquest? I'm a builder.
~Rackam
laurens posted 06-10-99 07:40 AM ET
"does a damaged unit explode with the same force as an intact one?"
Yup.

...or will the chassis cause any difference?
Nope.

To Natguy: I think once you have a well-trained AAA garrison inside the city with perimeter def and/or tachyon def plus aerospace complex, conventional missiles might be just an ant's bite - of course, this is rather subjective to the defender's armor and the missile's generator.
I followed a simple guide of my own (just didn't bother about the actual calculations):
The AAA-defense armor, coupled with what is listed above, can generally withstand missiles' reactor value x 2.5.

Series II posted 06-10-99 08:19 AM ET
Does Autodestruct damage air units? THat would be nice.
Beta1 posted 06-10-99 09:05 AM ET
I like the idea of taking out mindworm stacks with exploding units, I wonder if you get the energy credit bonus though. Somehow I doubt it....
Beta1,
Self-destructs himself to save Sparta command from a horde of mindworms.
Bingmann posted 06-10-99 10:18 AM ET
Here's the scoop on damage caused by auto-destruct:
damage = (reactor value divided by two, round down) * (weapon value)
area affected = the 9 squares within one move of the exploding unit
In other words, fission units do no damage, fusion and quantum units do weapon value in damage, and singularity units do two times weapon value in damage. The armor and chassis of the exploding unit have no effect on the amount of damage.
Also, units that are inside of a base take no damage from the explosion. Seems like the best use for this is against native lifeforms with their 10 hit points.
Bingmann posted 06-10-99 10:32 AM ET
Some more observations:
The explosion damages air units.
A unit can use all of its moves and still do auto-destruct.
K posted 06-10-99 03:44 PM ET
Mmmm.
Do you think that convention misslies might have been made to auto-destruct? they have a high attack value, and with a fusion reactor(which is gained VERY soon after conventional missles.
On a side note, can a conventional missle be upgraded to PB.
Rackam posted 06-11-99 09:35 AM ET
In my latest game, Santiago was shuttling these needlejets between two bases past one of mine. It got so annoying, every turn these needle jets would shuttle past. So I sent a suicide squad out.
Oh, I just had a weird idea, self-distructing a singularity PB. Attack value 99*2.
~Rackam
Beta1 posted 06-11-99 10:05 AM ET
Seems a bit excessive to autodestruct a PB-BUT if it does no ecodamage why not?
Well if conventional missiles can be made to autodestruct then it would make far more sense use those instead.
So the best unit would be max/1/1 drop best reactor squad. I'll try htis out next game - I'm busy playing Fleet command at the moment - maybe I can self destruct a Nimitz class CVN
Natguy posted 06-11-99 02:21 PM ET
But maybe it you self-destruct a PB it will cause an explosion equal to firing one off, but maybe without ODPs being able to stop it or causing ecodamage Or (oooh...) without counting as an atrocity? Now THAT would be worth something!
(Hmm...I wonder if Conventionals can be upgraded to PBs. I shall experiment and report back)
Natguy posted 06-11-99 02:25 PM ET
Oh wait, thought of another but it was too late to do anything, so made new post. (ooga ooga...me english good)
If you were allied to somebody, got a unit in their base, and auto-destructed, would it kill all their units? If it did couldn't you stick a unit in every city of theirs, auto-destruct them so all their defenders die, cancel the alliance and simply move in and take all the undefended cities? (Yes, I am low and sleazy, and almost always stab my allies in the back...he he he. That's what they get for trusting me!)
Or if your ally had a PB and you didn't think that wa a good thing for them to have!
Natguy posted 06-11-99 02:42 PM ET
Well, I tried out all of my above theories and none of them worked.
You cna't self-destruct in a city.
When you self-destruct a PB, it just creates a regular non-PB explosion
Conventional Missiles cannot be upgraded to PB's :O
M_ashwell posted 06-16-99 10:02 AM ET
hey peeps
i just had an idea
its impossible i know but...
planet buster artiliary
or
p b infantry
infantry would be good as the shell is cheaper than a missle
put drop pods on them
get orbit insertion tech
BOOM!!!
anywhere on planet instantly
conquest by victory in 1 turn!!!
or gine the probe team the p bust ability
(ne1 rember civ 2) that'll F*** up their orbital defence!!!
any who must dash
martyn
Natguy posted 06-17-99 11:14 AM ET
You can only put PBs on missiles.
M_ashwell posted 06-22-99 07:45 AM ET
i said "i know its impossible"
i just said it would b fun
its only a game calm down!
Beta1 posted 07-22-99 04:10 PM ET
resurrecting this one
Natguy posted 07-22-99 06:02 PM ET
Agh! This reveals my young stupidity, such as thinking missiles were unbeatable and not reading entire posts before replying! Agh! Take it away, take it away!
Krushala posted 07-22-99 07:08 PM ET
Ah it's fun to have your past come back to haunt you.
Zoetrope posted 07-23-99 12:16 AM ET
Natguy: according to your report, you were right about one thing: you can self-destruct missiles, including PBs.
Question: How much damage does this do? Does a Singularity Conventional Missile do 36 points of damage to every adjacent unit? In that case, for targetting armies in the open, self-destruct is a much better option (than targetting one unit) once you have Singularity reactors.
If you self-destruct a Singularity Planet Buster beside a Base, what effect does the 198 points of damage have on the troops cowering inside? Does it affect the buildings at all?
Natguy posted 07-23-99 11:03 AM ET
Well, the only ting I was testing for was if it set off a nuclear explosion. It didn't, so for my objectives it failed, and since I didn't think about the other stuff, the test was rather inconclusive on the value of self-destruction. I may have to tinker some more later on today.
Beta1 posted 07-26-99 02:41 PM ET
I think it was concluded that bases protect units from the blast of a self-destruct unit.
Anyway I brought this back up as a clever way to kill late game mindworms - any comments?
Natguy posted 07-26-99 08:18 PM ET
I've used it to kill mindworms can come from a pod and surround your unit so you know you can't win...kills off all eight of them! (No platpearls unfortunately)
sandals posted 07-29-99 04:34 PM ET
Killing the pod mindworm swarm - THAT is a good idea!
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Author	Topic: Suicide squads
Beta1	posted 06-07-99 08:39 AM ET I remember seeing a autodestruct unit option somewhere. Does this damage neighbouring units - and how much?
Rackam	posted 06-07-99 11:22 AM ET It does I was testing this out with a speeder. You have to put your best armour and weapon on it, singularity power plants are best, and then self distruct next to the offending unit. It will kill any unit next to it. But the real bonus is that you can even use these on those you have truce/treaty/pact with no diplomatic penality. ~Rackam the asteroid target
Natguy	posted 06-07-99 12:12 PM ET Cool! I wondered what that was for...could you take a WHOLE lotta, say, scouts (something cheap) and destroy them all near an enemy unit and destroy it, or does it only work with top-of-the-notch units? (For early-mid game when I don't have cool stuff like that)
Rackam	posted 06-07-99 12:55 PM ET It seems to more you spend building the unit, the bigger the bang. ~Rackam
Beta1	posted 06-07-99 04:41 PM ET Rackam - so I was right about your secret weapon. I might have to try this out, whats the effect like on units in cities?
Ambro2000	posted 06-07-99 07:59 PM ET I think it depends on what type off reactor you have. The bigger the reactor the bigger the BANG
Rackam	posted 06-08-99 07:40 AM ET I've done some more testing (on Yang) and it seems that self-distruct damage is affected by the weapon as well as the reactor. eg, a scout, fission reactor and hand weapons will not do much damage as a scout, fission reactor and singularity laser. Also, bases tend to protect units from the explosion. Best used on colony pods and probe teams. The design I've been using is this - speeder best reactor available best weapon available no armour cloaking drop pods ~Rackam
Beta1	posted 06-08-99 10:21 AM ET The question is the damage done worth sacrificing the unit for - I think a top-of-the-range speeder is probably better used as an assault unit than as a bomb. If bases protect units then it becomes even more pointless- if I want to blow up colony pods I might as well just attack it with the unit.
Plato90s	posted 06-08-99 12:25 PM ET I think the point is you can self-destruct units in the territory of factions you haven't declared war on yet. So you may have a Truce with the Believers but still detonate a few bombs in their territory.
Todd Hawks	posted 06-08-99 12:26 PM ET Beta1: This may be right, but if you can use them without diplomatic penalty (didn't test this but Rackam said so) then it may be useful. Rackam: Does "no diplomatic penalty" mean that you can use them against pact brothers without cancelling the pact or does it just mean that your reputation won't suffer? (no access at the moment so I can't test it)
Beta1	posted 06-09-99 07:10 AM ET I suppose that could be useful - knocking out enemy colony pods for example, but I usually go after any neighbours very aggressively so I dont worry about diplomatic penalties too much. If you are have a friendship agreement with a faction simply putting your units into their territory will wind them up.
Rackam	posted 06-09-99 09:50 AM ET Beta1 - True, but one of these will destroy 'all' units adjacent to it when it explodes, assuming it is powerfull enough. A missle (which actually costs more to build) will only kill one. Todd Hawks - I had a peace treaty with Miriam in one game, and I wiped out most of her military using these with zero effect to my reputation or my diplomatic status. ~Rackam
Beta1	posted 06-09-99 10:12 AM ET Rackam - It may kill all the units around it but you still lose a pretty useful unit. If you drop in a hovertank (esp an elite one) with best weapon on it it should be able to kill most of the units surrounding it. If your close enough to provide air support, stick a plane above it and it should survive to the next turn when you can flatten loads more units.... OK so this incurs diplomatic penalties if your not already at war but if you really want you can still activate the self destruct later. One other question - does a damaged unit explode with the same force as an intact one? If so hitting the big red button might be useful in situations where unsupported units are heavily out-numbered.
Rackam	posted 06-09-99 10:25 AM ET "does a damaged unit explode with the same force as an intact one?" I haven't tested this yet. I'll post when I have some data As to losing a usefull unit, I don't use speeders for conquest. With Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier, I use Clean Psi Gravship (elite ?-?-164 deep radar, clean) and Cloaked Psi Hovertank (elite ?-?-44 cloaking, anti-grav). ~Rackam
laurens	posted 06-09-99 10:40 AM ET Rackam: That is my favourite style too! But hope that those are not your only units coz missiles make a mincemeat out of them in no time.
Natguy	posted 06-09-99 11:33 AM ET Don't missiles tend to make mincemeat out of just about everything? And what about conquest before you have Gravships and Hovertanks?
sandworm	posted 06-09-99 03:16 PM ET So autodestruct could be used on multiple adjacent stacks of angry mindworms, as a last resort, when you don't have enough experienced/psi units to destroy each stack individually, and would you get the energy credits for killing them? Uhh, convoluted, but the question is all there. sandworm
Rackam	posted 06-10-99 05:59 AM ET laurens - No, I use (elite 1-<(best)t>-1 AAA, Trance) in bases. sandworm - Yes, that would work. Conquest? I'm a builder. ~Rackam
laurens	posted 06-10-99 07:40 AM ET "does a damaged unit explode with the same force as an intact one?" Yup. ...or will the chassis cause any difference? Nope. To Natguy: I think once you have a well-trained AAA garrison inside the city with perimeter def and/or tachyon def plus aerospace complex, conventional missiles might be just an ant's bite - of course, this is rather subjective to the defender's armor and the missile's generator. I followed a simple guide of my own (just didn't bother about the actual calculations): The AAA-defense armor, coupled with what is listed above, can generally withstand missiles' reactor value x 2.5.
Series II	posted 06-10-99 08:19 AM ET Does Autodestruct damage air units? THat would be nice.
Beta1	posted 06-10-99 09:05 AM ET I like the idea of taking out mindworm stacks with exploding units, I wonder if you get the energy credit bonus though. Somehow I doubt it.... Beta1, Self-destructs himself to save Sparta command from a horde of mindworms.
Bingmann	posted 06-10-99 10:18 AM ET Here's the scoop on damage caused by auto-destruct: damage = (reactor value divided by two, round down) * (weapon value) area affected = the 9 squares within one move of the exploding unit In other words, fission units do no damage, fusion and quantum units do weapon value in damage, and singularity units do two times weapon value in damage. The armor and chassis of the exploding unit have no effect on the amount of damage. Also, units that are inside of a base take no damage from the explosion. Seems like the best use for this is against native lifeforms with their 10 hit points.
Bingmann	posted 06-10-99 10:32 AM ET Some more observations: The explosion damages air units. A unit can use all of its moves and still do auto-destruct.
K	posted 06-10-99 03:44 PM ET Mmmm. Do you think that convention misslies might have been made to auto-destruct? they have a high attack value, and with a fusion reactor(which is gained VERY soon after conventional missles. On a side note, can a conventional missle be upgraded to PB.
Rackam	posted 06-11-99 09:35 AM ET In my latest game, Santiago was shuttling these needlejets between two bases past one of mine. It got so annoying, every turn these needle jets would shuttle past. So I sent a suicide squad out. Oh, I just had a weird idea, self-distructing a singularity PB. Attack value 99*2. ~Rackam
Beta1	posted 06-11-99 10:05 AM ET Seems a bit excessive to autodestruct a PB-BUT if it does no ecodamage why not? Well if conventional missiles can be made to autodestruct then it would make far more sense use those instead. So the best unit would be max/1/1 drop best reactor squad. I'll try htis out next game - I'm busy playing Fleet command at the moment - maybe I can self destruct a Nimitz class CVN
Natguy	posted 06-11-99 02:21 PM ET But maybe it you self-destruct a PB it will cause an explosion equal to firing one off, but maybe without ODPs being able to stop it or causing ecodamage Or (oooh...) without counting as an atrocity? Now THAT would be worth something! (Hmm...I wonder if Conventionals can be upgraded to PBs. I shall experiment and report back)
Natguy	posted 06-11-99 02:25 PM ET Oh wait, thought of another but it was too late to do anything, so made new post. (ooga ooga...me english good) If you were allied to somebody, got a unit in their base, and auto-destructed, would it kill all their units? If it did couldn't you stick a unit in every city of theirs, auto-destruct them so all their defenders die, cancel the alliance and simply move in and take all the undefended cities? (Yes, I am low and sleazy, and almost always stab my allies in the back...he he he. That's what they get for trusting me!) Or if your ally had a PB and you didn't think that wa a good thing for them to have!
Natguy	posted 06-11-99 02:42 PM ET Well, I tried out all of my above theories and none of them worked. You cna't self-destruct in a city. When you self-destruct a PB, it just creates a regular non-PB explosion Conventional Missiles cannot be upgraded to PB's :O
M_ashwell	posted 06-16-99 10:02 AM ET hey peeps i just had an idea its impossible i know but... planet buster artiliary or p b infantry infantry would be good as the shell is cheaper than a missle put drop pods on them get orbit insertion tech BOOM!!! anywhere on planet instantly conquest by victory in 1 turn!!! or gine the probe team the p bust ability (ne1 rember civ 2) that'll F*** up their orbital defence!!! any who must dash martyn
Natguy	posted 06-17-99 11:14 AM ET You can only put PBs on missiles.
M_ashwell	posted 06-22-99 07:45 AM ET i said "i know its impossible" i just said it would b fun its only a game calm down!
Beta1	posted 07-22-99 04:10 PM ET resurrecting this one
Natguy	posted 07-22-99 06:02 PM ET Agh! This reveals my young stupidity, such as thinking missiles were unbeatable and not reading entire posts before replying! Agh! Take it away, take it away!
Krushala	posted 07-22-99 07:08 PM ET Ah it's fun to have your past come back to haunt you.
Zoetrope	posted 07-23-99 12:16 AM ET Natguy: according to your report, you were right about one thing: you can self-destruct missiles, including PBs. Question: How much damage does this do? Does a Singularity Conventional Missile do 36 points of damage to every adjacent unit? In that case, for targetting armies in the open, self-destruct is a much better option (than targetting one unit) once you have Singularity reactors. If you self-destruct a Singularity Planet Buster beside a Base, what effect does the 198 points of damage have on the troops cowering inside? Does it affect the buildings at all?
Natguy	posted 07-23-99 11:03 AM ET Well, the only ting I was testing for was if it set off a nuclear explosion. It didn't, so for my objectives it failed, and since I didn't think about the other stuff, the test was rather inconclusive on the value of self-destruction. I may have to tinker some more later on today.
Beta1	posted 07-26-99 02:41 PM ET I think it was concluded that bases protect units from the blast of a self-destruct unit. Anyway I brought this back up as a clever way to kill late game mindworms - any comments?
Natguy	posted 07-26-99 08:18 PM ET I've used it to kill mindworms can come from a pod and surround your unit so you know you can't win...kills off all eight of them! (No platpearls unfortunately)
sandals	posted 07-29-99 04:34 PM ET Killing the pod mindworm swarm - THAT is a good idea!