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ProteusX posted 06-05-99 10:49 AM ET
I always find myself in the same adv government when playing UoP. I am surveying what is the best SE schemes from your experiences and too see in novel ideas I haven;t thouht of. Please state what you use and when and what faction you play with.
I always get stuck on
UoP: Demo: Green: Cybernetic
Plato90s posted 06-05-99 11:14 AM ET
Well, Eudamonics is also very nice to use once you are finished fighting major wars and you're just pumping up your score.
In the early game, if you are the Hive, Power + Planned is also fun.
Natguy posted 06-05-99 11:46 AM ET
I usually go Demo/FM/W/Cybernetic
This usally gets more tech than using knowledge, but later on in the game where Knowledge pulls ahead I switch to Demo/FM/Know/Cyber
For me, technology is everything...forget drone problems with wars, I'm getting a tech every two turns!!!
Provost Harrison posted 06-05-99 11:55 AM ET
Never found anything permenant. Although invariably democratic, usually wealth. Thought control with CVs is very useful, as is power. Don't like the support/industry hit otherwise. Eudaimonic is great though, although in combination with wealth, -4 morale is severe.
Plato90s posted 06-05-99 01:59 PM ET
Unless you are the Hive, why would you need wealth along with FM? +3 econ doesn't do much for you compared to +2 econ.
Smeagol posted 06-05-99 02:14 PM ET
First off, let me say something general about SE combos-- there is considerably less strategy in them because of the Demo/Planned/creche for pop boom "trick." To fix this, I simply changed Demo to only +1 Growth, and this makes SE strategies more worthwhile. It makes Demo/Planned an excellent early choice for any builder. Also, that pop boom can be a negative thing under high drone conditions, so building creches is now possible under Demo/Planned without worrying about pop booms. Perhaps the best feature of this is that since the computer doesn't really know how to utilize the pop boom trick, it takes away one of your advantages over it.
Plato-- I agree with you that +3 or even +4 or +5 economy are pretty much useless over +2. In fact the only time being over +2 helps is in the very early game when your bases are very small and that extra +2 or +4 energy per base actually means something significant. Demo/FM/Knowledge is the better choice then, as this will obviously maximize your research. And when Cybernetic comes along, you become an unstoppable force-- this saves you with Planet (though too late, I'll admit), and with that extra efficiency and research make it the perfect choice.
Plato90s posted 06-05-99 02:26 PM ET
While we're on the topic of SE choices, I want to reiterate that some of the negative effects don't seem harsh enough.
Taking high negative scores in Police, Morale, Efficiency, or Industry are all humongus problems.
When an unit comes out of a Command Center/BioEnhancement city and is still only hardened, it's a major disaster to your military efforts. And those negative Planet ratings really make Mindworm hunting a headache just when they're popping up all over the place due to eco-damage.
But an negative economy rating is almost meaningless. I can take a -2 econ and still make loads of money. Same with probe negatives. UoP already has -2 probe, and -4 probe doesn't do much else on top of that so it's almost a penalty free choice.
IMHO, -2 economy should give you the mirror image of +2 economy : -1 energy in every square. -4 probe should make your units so cheap to subvert that CEO Morgan can buy it with pocket change.
Smeagol posted 06-05-99 02:34 PM ET
Plato-- If -2 econ meant -1 energy/square, then Yang would be nearly impossible to play. While -1 energy/base isn't the harshest penalty after the very early stages of the game, it does slow research a good deal early on. It doesn't seem like such a penalty for Yang because he has the support, industry, and growth to overcome it.
gwimweeper posted 06-05-99 05:54 PM ET
BELIEVERS
.
"democratic" 'survival" "simple" "none"
.
Then "democratic" "green"
.
Then "democratic" "green" "power" (depending on neighbor) or "wealth" If you are near Morgan go with wealth. He dont like "green" and 'power". Santiago dont like "wealth"
.
Never, EVER be a Believer with "democratic" and be elbow to elbow with Hive. Best to start game over.
.
"democratic" "green" "power" and "cybernetic" gave me a 7 paradigm economy. I`m gonna be rich! The book only shows a 4 paradigm I achieved a 7. Is a 8 or a 9 paradigm possible?
Plato90s posted 06-05-99 07:11 PM ET
Well, if -1 energy per square is too harsh a penalty, then +1 energy per square is also too much of a bonus.
To be more logical
+/- 1 econ = +/- 1 energy per base
+/- 2 econ = +/- commerce
+/- 3 econ = +/- 1 energy per square
StargazerBC posted 06-05-99 07:27 PM ET
Democracy/Green/Knowledge (and then maybe Power)/Thought Control ::grins::
Rackam posted 06-05-99 08:56 PM ET
Does having an Efficiency above +4 do anything?
Btw, I use Fund/Plan/Power/Cyber in late game.
~Rackam
Natguy posted 06-05-99 11:09 PM ET
I go FM/Wealth because I get more research than with knowledge or power.
I don't know why that is, but it just is.
Nathan the Newbie
Plato90s posted 06-06-99 12:34 AM ET
Yes, efficiency is always good. You can get up to +9 efficiency with the Gaians.
seth5454 posted 06-06-99 07:29 AM ET
Police/FM/Knowledge/Eud. thats what I always use when play the spartans.
Krushala posted 06-06-99 10:18 AM ET
I usually go with police state/green/knowledge/cybernetic as the hive
I'll altenate between FM and green with morgan industries
I never seem to use wealth I don't like the -2 morale
do units built under wealth SE choice have -2 morale or is it temporary so when you change to power it goes up 4 notches? I never figured that out.
Anyway I stick with knowledge. The higher efficiency seems to help me out more that +1 wealth. That's because I always build at least 25 bases.
Smeagol posted 06-06-99 03:16 PM ET
Rackam-- I consider +4 to be the "magic" number to approach in efficiency. With this you are free to adjust energy allocation without penalty. Also, I've noticed that unless your bases are extremely far away, getting higher than +4 doesn't lessen energy lost to inefficiency.
However, if you plan to expand forever on any high difficulty level, then getting beyond +4 becomes more and more attractive. This is where the Gaians really shine.
Plato90s posted 06-06-99 03:24 PM ET
Planet rating is also something you have to keep a close eye on. Your cities may be perfectly balanced to have no eco-damage, but any change in your planet rating may end up throwing your cities into eco-damage mode.
Henrikp posted 06-07-99 02:56 AM ET
First of all I must say that democracy really hurts your build in the beginning. That is why I love Gaians who doesn't need democracy. Just go for green, then wealth and start golden ages in the big cities. That gives me +2 economy where needed and an extra growth bonus. And the -2 morale penalty for wealth? Who needs troops when you got locusts.
AAnother favorit is to speed to cyborg factory and cloning vats with the spartans and get power. Every unit trained becomes elite. Yummy. Then speed to telepathic matrix and get free market. Now you are mean and researchy.
HolyWarrior posted 06-07-99 03:05 AM ET
Hello, Gwimweeper. Nice to see a fellow Believer.
Some comments on your social choices.
In peacetime, I usually go with Demo and Green. I have yet to use Police State--the inefficiency is a killer.
You mentioned never having Demo with Yang nearby. I hate that Commie bastard and always try to eliminate him anyway. To do so, you should switch to Green/Fundy. Green is nice for keeping the wormies away.
Go with Power in wartime, Wealth in peace.
The Believers should only use FM if isolated and can handle the wormies. -5 police makes FM completely unbalanced.
Rackam posted 06-07-99 06:34 AM ET
Smeagol - I usually use decentralized government so the distance is irrelevant.
~Rackam
Igor posted 06-07-99 09:19 AM ET
Hive: Police/Planned/Wealth, latter Knowledge or Power. If game is not made, Simple/Green/Power/TC (with Vats).If TC is impossible, Police/Green/Knowledge.
Gaians: 'Peaceful' choice: Demo/Planned/Welth,
'warmonger' choice: Fundy/Green/Power.
Believers: Fundy/Green/Power, Demo/Planned/Wealth at peace time.
P.S. I don't use Knowledge if dont have HSA.
Kurnous posted 06-07-99 12:39 PM ET
With PK's early on Im survival simple none. When ive got 4-5 cities then I kick straight into Demo/planned/knowledge(if available)With Creches I get the boom and with the PK's hab bonus and also happy pop this means that my cities turn into monsterious size compared to the other factions. KNowledge means I get level effeciency and my reasearch is almost if not as fast as UoP cause I work more squares for energy. Sometimes I change knowledge to Wealth and move psych allocation to 10 or 20%. With Golden ages +2economy comes my way. At this point I might change planned to green. that means demo/green/wealth with golden ages high efficiency and also green to let my vast development move along unhindered by planet and also so I can gather mind worms
Late game the ultimate is demo/green/power/eudomonic. power with vates negates eudomonic. with bioenchancement centres and command centres units come out commandos and you get a masssive +2 economy and industry bonus. +2 planet is all thats need to let industry safely hit 100 production. With Centauri preserve, temple of planet, nanorecpriactor, singularity inductor and phoulus mutegan. Cybernetic at this stage is a waste. Planet rating overkill is a waste (anything over +2 is not essential)
With Gaians end game demo/green/power/eudomonic (with CV) is best. Cybernetic is a waste. 5 planet. what a waste. Sure +9 efficiency is nice. +11 with creches but +7 will do fine especially with a +2 economy and industry bonus!!!
Anyway these are my thoughts. Feel free to comment!
Smeagol posted 06-07-99 02:45 PM ET
Rackam-- I will assume that means you eliminate your HQ, right? What is the exact effect of that?
Series II posted 06-07-99 03:13 PM ET
YOu can get more energy without a headquarters than with sometimes! I think that is stupid.
Inefficiency is determined by the number of squares a city is from your headquarters. If you do not have a head quarters the computer uses 16 squares as distance every city is from your non-existant headquarters.
So, kind-a-sort-of, have more energy lost to inefficience by bases beyond 16 squares than you have saved by bases within 16 squares you BENEFIT from not haveing a headquarters.
It is a bit more complicated than that because of SP, trade and other stuff, but you should NOT be better off without a HQ than with one.
I think that we need another base facility that increases base efficiency toward late game. Something like a virtual HQ that would reduce inefficiency by 1/2 of make a base operate like it was 16 (or 8) squares from your HQ.
Plato90s posted 06-07-99 05:02 PM ET
I've tested this no-HQ style, and SeriesII is correct. When you have 40+ cities scattered around the map, no HQ is even better than placing the HQ in the middle of the biggest city concentration on the equator.
I tend to agree that Civ:CTP had the right idea. The number of turns it would take for an unit to move between the HQ and the city in question determines efficiency. Obviously, inefficiency will decrease with infrastructure and technology.
Beta1 posted 06-07-99 05:03 PM ET
No one seems to be a big fan of fundy around here. I've become rather fond of being a fundamentalist spartan - that +3 morale makes your units lethal in the early game and later you can pump out very high quality units. It also removes the need to choose power - if you want it knowledge cancels out the negatives of fundy but I usually dont bother. I usually finish up with planned to add some growth rating. Depending on conditions I switch to demo to get pop boom, but as I usually play a (very) aggressive early - mid game fundy is great
Oleg Leschoff posted 06-07-99 05:47 PM ET
I've been playing morganites last few games [I like it!] after LOTS for gaians, and..
Morganites -- excellent choises demo/green/wealth -- wealth makes that critical 1 energy/square, so you can go green and get extra efficiency, and not worry about terrible police rating of FM. Then switch to cybernetic, or to knowledge/eudaimonia of UoP bugs you (btw, it's somewhat more effecient, I think), or Thought Control, if you are at war.
For Gaians I used to go Demo/green/knowledge, Future Society -- depending on situation.
Ah, btw, those all was builder games on huge maps.
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Author	Topic: Social Engineering Combos
ProteusX	posted 06-05-99 10:49 AM ET I always find myself in the same adv government when playing UoP. I am surveying what is the best SE schemes from your experiences and too see in novel ideas I haven;t thouht of. Please state what you use and when and what faction you play with. I always get stuck on UoP: Demo: Green: Cybernetic
Plato90s	posted 06-05-99 11:14 AM ET Well, Eudamonics is also very nice to use once you are finished fighting major wars and you're just pumping up your score. In the early game, if you are the Hive, Power + Planned is also fun.
Natguy	posted 06-05-99 11:46 AM ET I usually go Demo/FM/W/Cybernetic This usally gets more tech than using knowledge, but later on in the game where Knowledge pulls ahead I switch to Demo/FM/Know/Cyber For me, technology is everything...forget drone problems with wars, I'm getting a tech every two turns!!!
Provost Harrison	posted 06-05-99 11:55 AM ET Never found anything permenant. Although invariably democratic, usually wealth. Thought control with CVs is very useful, as is power. Don't like the support/industry hit otherwise. Eudaimonic is great though, although in combination with wealth, -4 morale is severe.
Plato90s	posted 06-05-99 01:59 PM ET Unless you are the Hive, why would you need wealth along with FM? +3 econ doesn't do much for you compared to +2 econ.
Smeagol	posted 06-05-99 02:14 PM ET First off, let me say something general about SE combos-- there is considerably less strategy in them because of the Demo/Planned/creche for pop boom "trick." To fix this, I simply changed Demo to only +1 Growth, and this makes SE strategies more worthwhile. It makes Demo/Planned an excellent early choice for any builder. Also, that pop boom can be a negative thing under high drone conditions, so building creches is now possible under Demo/Planned without worrying about pop booms. Perhaps the best feature of this is that since the computer doesn't really know how to utilize the pop boom trick, it takes away one of your advantages over it. Plato-- I agree with you that +3 or even +4 or +5 economy are pretty much useless over +2. In fact the only time being over +2 helps is in the very early game when your bases are very small and that extra +2 or +4 energy per base actually means something significant. Demo/FM/Knowledge is the better choice then, as this will obviously maximize your research. And when Cybernetic comes along, you become an unstoppable force-- this saves you with Planet (though too late, I'll admit), and with that extra efficiency and research make it the perfect choice.
Plato90s	posted 06-05-99 02:26 PM ET While we're on the topic of SE choices, I want to reiterate that some of the negative effects don't seem harsh enough. Taking high negative scores in Police, Morale, Efficiency, or Industry are all humongus problems. When an unit comes out of a Command Center/BioEnhancement city and is still only hardened, it's a major disaster to your military efforts. And those negative Planet ratings really make Mindworm hunting a headache just when they're popping up all over the place due to eco-damage. But an negative economy rating is almost meaningless. I can take a -2 econ and still make loads of money. Same with probe negatives. UoP already has -2 probe, and -4 probe doesn't do much else on top of that so it's almost a penalty free choice. IMHO, -2 economy should give you the mirror image of +2 economy : -1 energy in every square. -4 probe should make your units so cheap to subvert that CEO Morgan can buy it with pocket change.
Smeagol	posted 06-05-99 02:34 PM ET Plato-- If -2 econ meant -1 energy/square, then Yang would be nearly impossible to play. While -1 energy/base isn't the harshest penalty after the very early stages of the game, it does slow research a good deal early on. It doesn't seem like such a penalty for Yang because he has the support, industry, and growth to overcome it.
gwimweeper	posted 06-05-99 05:54 PM ET BELIEVERS . "democratic" 'survival" "simple" "none" . Then "democratic" "green" . Then "democratic" "green" "power" (depending on neighbor) or "wealth" If you are near Morgan go with wealth. He dont like "green" and 'power". Santiago dont like "wealth" . Never, EVER be a Believer with "democratic" and be elbow to elbow with Hive. Best to start game over. . "democratic" "green" "power" and "cybernetic" gave me a 7 paradigm economy. I`m gonna be rich! The book only shows a 4 paradigm I achieved a 7. Is a 8 or a 9 paradigm possible?
Plato90s	posted 06-05-99 07:11 PM ET Well, if -1 energy per square is too harsh a penalty, then +1 energy per square is also too much of a bonus. To be more logical +/- 1 econ = +/- 1 energy per base +/- 2 econ = +/- commerce +/- 3 econ = +/- 1 energy per square
StargazerBC	posted 06-05-99 07:27 PM ET Democracy/Green/Knowledge (and then maybe Power)/Thought Control ::grins::
Rackam	posted 06-05-99 08:56 PM ET Does having an Efficiency above +4 do anything? Btw, I use Fund/Plan/Power/Cyber in late game. ~Rackam
Natguy	posted 06-05-99 11:09 PM ET I go FM/Wealth because I get more research than with knowledge or power. I don't know why that is, but it just is. Nathan the Newbie
Plato90s	posted 06-06-99 12:34 AM ET Yes, efficiency is always good. You can get up to +9 efficiency with the Gaians.
seth5454	posted 06-06-99 07:29 AM ET Police/FM/Knowledge/Eud. thats what I always use when play the spartans.
Krushala	posted 06-06-99 10:18 AM ET I usually go with police state/green/knowledge/cybernetic as the hive I'll altenate between FM and green with morgan industries I never seem to use wealth I don't like the -2 morale do units built under wealth SE choice have -2 morale or is it temporary so when you change to power it goes up 4 notches? I never figured that out. Anyway I stick with knowledge. The higher efficiency seems to help me out more that +1 wealth. That's because I always build at least 25 bases.
Smeagol	posted 06-06-99 03:16 PM ET Rackam-- I consider +4 to be the "magic" number to approach in efficiency. With this you are free to adjust energy allocation without penalty. Also, I've noticed that unless your bases are extremely far away, getting higher than +4 doesn't lessen energy lost to inefficiency. However, if you plan to expand forever on any high difficulty level, then getting beyond +4 becomes more and more attractive. This is where the Gaians really shine.
Plato90s	posted 06-06-99 03:24 PM ET Planet rating is also something you have to keep a close eye on. Your cities may be perfectly balanced to have no eco-damage, but any change in your planet rating may end up throwing your cities into eco-damage mode.
Henrikp	posted 06-07-99 02:56 AM ET First of all I must say that democracy really hurts your build in the beginning. That is why I love Gaians who doesn't need democracy. Just go for green, then wealth and start golden ages in the big cities. That gives me +2 economy where needed and an extra growth bonus. And the -2 morale penalty for wealth? Who needs troops when you got locusts. AAnother favorit is to speed to cyborg factory and cloning vats with the spartans and get power. Every unit trained becomes elite. Yummy. Then speed to telepathic matrix and get free market. Now you are mean and researchy.
HolyWarrior	posted 06-07-99 03:05 AM ET Hello, Gwimweeper. Nice to see a fellow Believer. Some comments on your social choices. In peacetime, I usually go with Demo and Green. I have yet to use Police State--the inefficiency is a killer. You mentioned never having Demo with Yang nearby. I hate that Commie bastard and always try to eliminate him anyway. To do so, you should switch to Green/Fundy. Green is nice for keeping the wormies away. Go with Power in wartime, Wealth in peace. The Believers should only use FM if isolated and can handle the wormies. -5 police makes FM completely unbalanced.
Rackam	posted 06-07-99 06:34 AM ET Smeagol - I usually use decentralized government so the distance is irrelevant. ~Rackam
Igor	posted 06-07-99 09:19 AM ET Hive: Police/Planned/Wealth, latter Knowledge or Power. If game is not made, Simple/Green/Power/TC (with Vats).If TC is impossible, Police/Green/Knowledge. Gaians: 'Peaceful' choice: Demo/Planned/Welth, 'warmonger' choice: Fundy/Green/Power. Believers: Fundy/Green/Power, Demo/Planned/Wealth at peace time. P.S. I don't use Knowledge if dont have HSA.
Kurnous	posted 06-07-99 12:39 PM ET With PK's early on Im survival simple none. When ive got 4-5 cities then I kick straight into Demo/planned/knowledge(if available)With Creches I get the boom and with the PK's hab bonus and also happy pop this means that my cities turn into monsterious size compared to the other factions. KNowledge means I get level effeciency and my reasearch is almost if not as fast as UoP cause I work more squares for energy. Sometimes I change knowledge to Wealth and move psych allocation to 10 or 20%. With Golden ages +2economy comes my way. At this point I might change planned to green. that means demo/green/wealth with golden ages high efficiency and also green to let my vast development move along unhindered by planet and also so I can gather mind worms Late game the ultimate is demo/green/power/eudomonic. power with vates negates eudomonic. with bioenchancement centres and command centres units come out commandos and you get a masssive +2 economy and industry bonus. +2 planet is all thats need to let industry safely hit 100 production. With Centauri preserve, temple of planet, nanorecpriactor, singularity inductor and phoulus mutegan. Cybernetic at this stage is a waste. Planet rating overkill is a waste (anything over +2 is not essential) With Gaians end game demo/green/power/eudomonic (with CV) is best. Cybernetic is a waste. 5 planet. what a waste. Sure +9 efficiency is nice. +11 with creches but +7 will do fine especially with a +2 economy and industry bonus!!! Anyway these are my thoughts. Feel free to comment!
Smeagol	posted 06-07-99 02:45 PM ET Rackam-- I will assume that means you eliminate your HQ, right? What is the exact effect of that?
Series II	posted 06-07-99 03:13 PM ET YOu can get more energy without a headquarters than with sometimes! I think that is stupid. Inefficiency is determined by the number of squares a city is from your headquarters. If you do not have a head quarters the computer uses 16 squares as distance every city is from your non-existant headquarters. So, kind-a-sort-of, have more energy lost to inefficience by bases beyond 16 squares than you have saved by bases within 16 squares you BENEFIT from not haveing a headquarters. It is a bit more complicated than that because of SP, trade and other stuff, but you should NOT be better off without a HQ than with one. I think that we need another base facility that increases base efficiency toward late game. Something like a virtual HQ that would reduce inefficiency by 1/2 of make a base operate like it was 16 (or 8) squares from your HQ.
Plato90s	posted 06-07-99 05:02 PM ET I've tested this no-HQ style, and SeriesII is correct. When you have 40+ cities scattered around the map, no HQ is even better than placing the HQ in the middle of the biggest city concentration on the equator. I tend to agree that Civ:CTP had the right idea. The number of turns it would take for an unit to move between the HQ and the city in question determines efficiency. Obviously, inefficiency will decrease with infrastructure and technology.
Beta1	posted 06-07-99 05:03 PM ET No one seems to be a big fan of fundy around here. I've become rather fond of being a fundamentalist spartan - that +3 morale makes your units lethal in the early game and later you can pump out very high quality units. It also removes the need to choose power - if you want it knowledge cancels out the negatives of fundy but I usually dont bother. I usually finish up with planned to add some growth rating. Depending on conditions I switch to demo to get pop boom, but as I usually play a (very) aggressive early - mid game fundy is great
Oleg Leschoff	posted 06-07-99 05:47 PM ET I've been playing morganites last few games [I like it!] after LOTS for gaians, and.. Morganites -- excellent choises demo/green/wealth -- wealth makes that critical 1 energy/square, so you can go green and get extra efficiency, and not worry about terrible police rating of FM. Then switch to cybernetic, or to knowledge/eudaimonia of UoP bugs you (btw, it's somewhat more effecient, I think), or Thought Control, if you are at war. For Gaians I used to go Demo/green/knowledge, Future Society -- depending on situation. Ah, btw, those all was builder games on huge maps.