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Author Topic:   AI Cheating Becomes Intelligent :)

Oleg Leschoff posted 05-23-99 12:53 PM ET
Here, I've only got a chance to post this story when still remember it..
Speaking of the AI cheating.
Once, in the late game, I've scrambled to the top of techs, not conquering everybody and not heading towards transcendance (I've disabled it (as well as the diplomatic victory) -- to easy and not fun for me).
So, I had to spend a huge time for conquering all folks stockpiled near my foots... I mean, all that inferior factions.
For having some fun, I've started to produce gravship formers in a good numbers. Also, some probe cruisers as a support. Then, grav formers (considerably armored) had their job -- sinking all bases they encounter -- you know, stockpile four-five formers on one square, and in a turn or two the base is sunk The probe cruisers's job was, of cause, to destroy pressure domes in the encountered bases.
Soon, the fun begun. Of cause, first, I've sunk some newer bases, not too significant. That wasn't too fun, though. The real fun was sheduled on the sinking of some major bases (most of them were on the islands).
So, I brought my formers, and started lowering terrain; before the final turn, the probe has arrived and destroyed pressure dome there. On the next turn, when terrain has been lowered, the base survived -- surely, PD was there. Note that it is was inpossible to build it.
OK, maybe they did -- anyway, the turn has passed. Right. Then do it in a different way. Destroy PD right before the terrain lowering. So, load autosave (when no units moved yet), take probe, destroy PD. Then formers are makes their move and completes their job -- terrain is lowered. And - just imagine - base survives. Funny, yeah?
Yes, the AI cheats on the high levels. As I remember, this game was played as Gaians on Thinker level.
The thing that surprised me is fact that the AI is tuned so that especially this, in fact, very rare type of attack (because it's overall too ineffective -- it's slow (well, if you don't have nearly 10 grav formers for one attack), costly (lowering costs money, but not too big, though) and, if enemy is somewhat advanced, too risky).
So, we may suppose that the AI is created so that when some type of attack is used constantly and effectively, the AI acts the countermeasures -- either in the legal way (as we see in air-aaa case) or, if allowed in the current situation (high difficulty, too powerful player), by cheating.
That's it...
Oleg Leschoff posted 05-23-99 01:52 PM ET
errr... Please excuse my english.
Plato90s posted 05-23-99 02:58 PM ET
The AI automatically build/purchase pressure domes when their city is being sunk into the ocean. The programmers added this function because the AIs are too stupid to realize that there is rising sea levels [global warming or melt polar caps] and to anticipate by building pressure domes.
JAMstillAM posted 05-23-99 05:36 PM ET
The AI doesn't always use this cheat. You can sink their bases. This is based on experience in doing so, playing Thinker and Transcend levels in v3.0. Another cheat that I've seen the AI use against this tactic is an exorbitant cost to perform the terraforming. For example, as the Gaians, I sunk my first PK base for 32 energy credits, it was a size 7 population, with a moderate number of facilities built, but no pressure dome. It went down with the message of "...been submerged by tidal waves." I moved on to the next PK base which was size 9 population and moderate facilities. The cost to sink this one jumped to over 3000 energy credits! I tried a couple of different tiles and each time it was over 3000 energy credits. So I captured it the old fashioned way, instead.
JAMiAM
Earwicker posted 05-23-99 07:40 PM ET
I just had a similar experience, JamIam. Trying out the sink Believer bases just for grins, the computer wanted idiotic amounts of energy for it (700 or 800 per square). Forget about it -- I went back to the old fashioned killing.
K posted 05-23-99 09:19 PM ET
Yep, seen the same thing. The cost went down an amazing amount after the PD was up though.
On a related note, anyone ever sink your own land bases(converting them to sea bases) to protect them from a land invasion? The Freshwater Sea is the ultimate for this tactic.
Oleg Leschoff posted 05-23-99 11:38 PM ET
When I destroy PD, the production immediately switches to the PD, but I cannot do the same thing (switch production during the other faction's turn). Maybe this is not accepted as a cheat, just as a feature (but for us, this is a cheat, because AI does what we can't), So that made it possible to complete it to the beginning of my next turn.
But in my case (as I've already said, after a while, when I sunk two or three bases), when I destroyed the PD, and in the same my turn lowered terrain, it just appeared there, after lowering, but before sinking! BTW, money wasn't a trouble for me that time.
I was wrong when I thought that this is a rare type of attack -- I didn't count global rising -- just because I didn't encounter it till then. you know, Gaians' constant tempting of Planet.. no ecodamage.. And this was only possible before patch 3. This was patch 2.
In fact, I used this tactic only to avoid management of those captured cities -- my own was enough for me.
Zoetrope posted 05-24-99 05:55 AM ET
There are other ways of destroying a base instead of managing it:
(1) hitting it repeatedly with conventional weapons until the population drops to zero (that's the safest quick way);
(2) likewise with nerve gas (unpopular with rival factions, and Planet - as I discovered last night - is allergic to this gas);
(3) hitting it with a planet buster (definitely unpopular - but where's the radioactive cloud that should be blowing to the east?);
(4) destroying it after conquest (also unpopular);
(5) and disbanding it by starving it while building colony pods (politically safe but slow).
ApcJK posted 05-24-99 11:24 AM ET
Or leaving city undefended and releasing some mind worms into wild near it.
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Author	Topic: AI Cheating Becomes Intelligent :)
Oleg Leschoff	posted 05-23-99 12:53 PM ET Here, I've only got a chance to post this story when still remember it.. Speaking of the AI cheating. Once, in the late game, I've scrambled to the top of techs, not conquering everybody and not heading towards transcendance (I've disabled it (as well as the diplomatic victory) -- to easy and not fun for me). So, I had to spend a huge time for conquering all folks stockpiled near my foots... I mean, all that inferior factions. For having some fun, I've started to produce gravship formers in a good numbers. Also, some probe cruisers as a support. Then, grav formers (considerably armored) had their job -- sinking all bases they encounter -- you know, stockpile four-five formers on one square, and in a turn or two the base is sunk The probe cruisers's job was, of cause, to destroy pressure domes in the encountered bases. Soon, the fun begun. Of cause, first, I've sunk some newer bases, not too significant. That wasn't too fun, though. The real fun was sheduled on the sinking of some major bases (most of them were on the islands). So, I brought my formers, and started lowering terrain; before the final turn, the probe has arrived and destroyed pressure dome there. On the next turn, when terrain has been lowered, the base survived -- surely, PD was there. Note that it is was inpossible to build it. OK, maybe they did -- anyway, the turn has passed. Right. Then do it in a different way. Destroy PD right before the terrain lowering. So, load autosave (when no units moved yet), take probe, destroy PD. Then formers are makes their move and completes their job -- terrain is lowered. And - just imagine - base survives. Funny, yeah? Yes, the AI cheats on the high levels. As I remember, this game was played as Gaians on Thinker level. The thing that surprised me is fact that the AI is tuned so that especially this, in fact, very rare type of attack (because it's overall too ineffective -- it's slow (well, if you don't have nearly 10 grav formers for one attack), costly (lowering costs money, but not too big, though) and, if enemy is somewhat advanced, too risky). So, we may suppose that the AI is created so that when some type of attack is used constantly and effectively, the AI acts the countermeasures -- either in the legal way (as we see in air-aaa case) or, if allowed in the current situation (high difficulty, too powerful player), by cheating. That's it...
Oleg Leschoff	posted 05-23-99 01:52 PM ET errr... Please excuse my english.
Plato90s	posted 05-23-99 02:58 PM ET The AI automatically build/purchase pressure domes when their city is being sunk into the ocean. The programmers added this function because the AIs are too stupid to realize that there is rising sea levels [global warming or melt polar caps] and to anticipate by building pressure domes.
JAMstillAM	posted 05-23-99 05:36 PM ET The AI doesn't always use this cheat. You can sink their bases. This is based on experience in doing so, playing Thinker and Transcend levels in v3.0. Another cheat that I've seen the AI use against this tactic is an exorbitant cost to perform the terraforming. For example, as the Gaians, I sunk my first PK base for 32 energy credits, it was a size 7 population, with a moderate number of facilities built, but no pressure dome. It went down with the message of "...been submerged by tidal waves." I moved on to the next PK base which was size 9 population and moderate facilities. The cost to sink this one jumped to over 3000 energy credits! I tried a couple of different tiles and each time it was over 3000 energy credits. So I captured it the old fashioned way, instead. JAMiAM
Earwicker	posted 05-23-99 07:40 PM ET I just had a similar experience, JamIam. Trying out the sink Believer bases just for grins, the computer wanted idiotic amounts of energy for it (700 or 800 per square). Forget about it -- I went back to the old fashioned killing.
K	posted 05-23-99 09:19 PM ET Yep, seen the same thing. The cost went down an amazing amount after the PD was up though. On a related note, anyone ever sink your own land bases(converting them to sea bases) to protect them from a land invasion? The Freshwater Sea is the ultimate for this tactic.
Oleg Leschoff	posted 05-23-99 11:38 PM ET When I destroy PD, the production immediately switches to the PD, but I cannot do the same thing (switch production during the other faction's turn). Maybe this is not accepted as a cheat, just as a feature (but for us, this is a cheat, because AI does what we can't), So that made it possible to complete it to the beginning of my next turn. But in my case (as I've already said, after a while, when I sunk two or three bases), when I destroyed the PD, and in the same my turn lowered terrain, it just appeared there, after lowering, but before sinking! BTW, money wasn't a trouble for me that time. I was wrong when I thought that this is a rare type of attack -- I didn't count global rising -- just because I didn't encounter it till then. you know, Gaians' constant tempting of Planet.. no ecodamage.. And this was only possible before patch 3. This was patch 2. In fact, I used this tactic only to avoid management of those captured cities -- my own was enough for me.
Zoetrope	posted 05-24-99 05:55 AM ET There are other ways of destroying a base instead of managing it: (1) hitting it repeatedly with conventional weapons until the population drops to zero (that's the safest quick way); (2) likewise with nerve gas (unpopular with rival factions, and Planet - as I discovered last night - is allergic to this gas); (3) hitting it with a planet buster (definitely unpopular - but where's the radioactive cloud that should be blowing to the east?); (4) destroying it after conquest (also unpopular); (5) and disbanding it by starving it while building colony pods (politically safe but slow).
ApcJK	posted 05-24-99 11:24 AM ET Or leaving city undefended and releasing some mind worms into wild near it.