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Why the Spartans are ultimately not worth playing
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Alpha Centauri Forums
Strategies and Tactics
Why the Spartans are ultimately not worth playing
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| Author | Topic: Why the Spartans are ultimately not worth playing |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-11-99 12:54 PM ET  
OK, this faction is a military faction, there is no question. Why would anyone want to play them over the Hive if that's the only real concern? A military faction needs 2 things only-- to be able to build an army and support it. But the Spartans simply can't do that effectively. If you want to build an army with them, you begin with a -1 industry. Not the worst thing possible, but a hindrance nonetheless. Then you need some way to support it, and you look to power (you already have police state). But this kills your industry entirely, and if you try to build a large army early without power, then you suffer from a minerals shortage because of all the support. I know many people consider building an army and then switching to power, but this doesn't work well either, because as I said while building it you can't handle all the support. Then you look at the nicest bonus of this faction-- being able to have a +3 police early. While this is a great thing, it is also destroyed by their lack of support without power, because you need to support 3 military units in order to make real use of it (or at least 2). Just not worth it, and since clean reactors come much later and are to everyone's advantage, the Spartans are not worth playing. Personally I would like to change them to something like this: +1 Support Get rid of the cheap prototypes ability. Thoughts on this? |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-11-99 03:52 PM ET
Another possibility I have considered is to alter the effects of Power to -2 economy insted of -2 industry. I just think that industry hit is way too much, and makes the Spartans a bad faction, because Power is a necessity for effective relatively early wars on transcend. |
| Bingmann |
posted 05-11-99 06:57 PM ET
I believe the appeal of the Spartans is that they are the best "generalists" (or is that "colonelists"). They are about as good as Morgan at being builders, and they are nearly as good as the Hive at being conquerors. PKs and Believers leave the rest in the dust in their respective categories. |
| High Priest |
posted 05-11-99 07:32 PM ET
Bingman: Morgans are much better than Spartans in building aspects, while Yang leaves the puny Spartans in the dust when it comes to building. OK, I gotta agree with Smeagol. Though Spartans were the first militaristic faction I went to, I found them next to worthless when building armies. Hell, the Hive could churn out the Command Nexus while Corazon is dawdling with building her army of +1 morale offense, +2 defence soldiers. Yang's got +2 morale overall! And just watch Santiago try to build Command Centers in each of her bases. Plus, when she attacks Yang, he'll have Perimeter Defenses, and try getting the CDF with Spartans. Much later in the game, Santiago's got her Power, and -3 industry, while Yang's got the Cyborg Factory. And a +4 morale rating only gives your troops +3 morale, CF+CN or MCC give your troops +4. Not to mention if Yang, say, gets into trouble, he can easily take the -2 with power, leaving him with industry 0. High Priest |
| Submachinegun |
posted 05-11-99 09:07 PM ET
I gotta agree with Smeagol, the Spartans aren't really that dangerous. I have actually NEVER played a game where the Spartans have been the most powerful faction. Usually, Believers, PK, or UoP are in lead (or me, of course!  ). Sometimes the Hive. |
| Submachinegun |
posted 05-11-99 09:11 PM ET
Of course, there is a lot of challenge in playing a faction like that. But I find it ultimately boring. I'm a builder kinda guy. Players looking for a (tough?) challenge probably like them. |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-11-99 09:21 PM ET
Don't get me wrong-- anyone can still win with them. It's not as if they're a faction with nothing but weaknesses, but out of all the factions, their strengths just don't compare. |
| eladamirS |
posted 05-12-99 04:25 AM ET
I was challanged to defend the Spartans :-) Lets look at their disadvantages. The 1st is industry at -10%- right on start it's a great boon, but a city with a mine or near a borehole can easily ignore it until the arrival of Genejack Factory- and then the disadvantage is absolute. 2nd disadvantage: can't use wealth. I only found three reasons to play wealth: if you're the Morganits going for economy boom, the Hive removing the economy problem or if you're in an urgent need of industry. The Spartans will be just too boring with wealth- the "we've nothing" faction. Advantages. First of all, +1 police, making +3 police early on _very_ easy, so you won't have to pay for recreation commons etc, after non-lethel weapons you can easily ignore 9 drones. The lack of support is a problem along with the industry- but a borehole (or 5 :-) ) will solve it. So on general: to play the Spartans properly, either blitz your opponent building Command Centers on front cities and pomping out +4 morale units, or start with a builder strategy, giving each city a Borehole (or on my case, 4 boreholes, but I'm insane), ignoring those pathetic early worms with your morale bonus and then building all of those big ugly SPs (Cyborg Factory, Maritime Control Center, Command Nexus, Citizen's Defence Force) and crushing your opponent (although it might take you up to 300 turns). Ouch... My fingers are on fire from typing too quickly ;-) |
| Urban Ranger |
posted 05-12-99 04:27 AM ET
The thing about the Spartans is that they don't need a large army to win, supposedly. A stretagy that might work is to run everybody off your continent early in the game, then switch to a building phase while patrol your waters with a few boats to keep invaders off. Then after a while, invade other continents and keep the remaining computer factions off balance, i.e., on a war footing, while your core cities are dedicated to building SP and infrastructure. High Priest - why do you let Yang to have the Command Nexus and Cyborg Factory? You can't let Yang sit in peace and build. You must disrupt early him if there's nobody else you can rely on, e.g., Mariam. You don't need much. Just a city on his continent and lots of probe teams. |
| Bingmann |
posted 05-12-99 10:05 AM ET
Spartans vs. Morgan (builders) - Morgan: +1 ECON, Wealth SE, no -1 INDUS, commerce bonus Spartans: no -1 SUPP, base size limit +3, demo/planned/creche pop boom Production: Morgan will be up 1 or 2 INDUS (1 with Survival or Knowledge, 2 with Wealth) on the Spartans, but the Spartans will have 3 extra workers per base and 1 extra prod. per base (due to support). Net result is pretty even. Energy: Morgan vs. Spartans will either be (difference in ECON/EFFIC/RES), +1/even/even (FM/K vs. FM/K) or +2/-1/-2 (FM/W vs. FM/K). Morgan gets 2 commerce bonuses and +2 energy per base if using Wealth (more than offset by EFFIC and RES difference); Spartans get 3 extra workers per base. Spartans have a higher unmodified commerce and are more likely to be elected Governor than Morgan (reducing the commerce bonus difference to 1) due to larger base sizes. In any case, commerce requires cooperation from other factions - not reliable. Net result is again pretty even. It all depends on how well Morgan is able to use commerce to make up for missing 3 workers per base. |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 11:05 AM ET
OK, as I mentioned the biggest advantage I see for the Spartans is the +3 police as eladamir said also (I mentioned this in another Spartan thread). But to get that you need to use Police State which kills your efficiency so you'll have -2 for the initial building stages. This is not acceptable, as it means on transcend you can only build 4 bases before bureaucracy drones show up. You have to rush to green, which takes a little while and slows your growth when you get it. Ok, I have to go for a few minutes but I'll continue this in a bit. |
| Zorak Zoran |
posted 05-12-99 11:06 AM ET
Heretics! Not worth playing? You must be mad. I would like to preface my rebuttal by stating that if you haven't won at least a half dozen games as the Spartans on Transcend, then don't bother replying. Let us speak from experience, not assumtions, shall we? Much of what has been put forth on this thread is completely irrelevant. Sure Yang is an industrial powerhouse. Of course some other factions have bonuses that are easier to exploit. So what? I believe there are contexts for four considerations of a faction: human controlled in single player games, computer controlled in single player games, and human controlled in multiplayer mayhem. 1. The Spartans are superb against the computer. In the very early game you can often demand entire cities from your neighbors and expect compliance. Later on you can use artifacts to get the Command Nexus early, thus ensuring you will wipe other factions off your continent as soon as you get Particle Impactors. Let Yang turtle, but if he pokes his head out to terraform you can easily squash him with Impact Rovers. In short, it is almost embarassingly easy to defeat the computer with the Spartans. 2. The computer cannot play the Spartans well mainly because it cannot put together a decent invasion. But again, so what? We're talking about whether or not they are worth playing, not worth watching. 3. In multiplayer I cannot fathom any of the builder factions surviving past 100 turns. The high attack strength, and low defensive strength, of early technology puts the advantage clearly in the hands of the aggressor. This has all been discussed to death in the Transcend Ironman threads.
As a builder, the Spartans are just fine. Take Knowledge, not Power. Power just gives the Spartans a lot of what they already have. Technology is king. Footnote: with the Command Nexus and Cyborg Factory, every unit the Spartans produce is Elite... great fun. To sum-up my position, let me say that it is entirely irrelevant to compare one faction against another "on paper." The game is much more than that. I, for one, enjoy playing against builders like Morgan (both human and computer). I hope they build nice big streets in their cities so my tanks will have lots of room to do donuts. |
| Bingmann |
posted 05-12-99 11:25 AM ET
Spartans vs. Hive (builders, for High Priest) - Hive: +1 INDUS, no -1 INDUS, Immunity EFFIC, Wealth SE, free Perimeter Defense Spartans: no -2 ECON, demo/planned/creche pop boom, Democracy SE Production: The Hive will be Police State, and the Spartans will be Democracy. The Spartans can pick the same FM/P/G SE that the Hive picks. Then the Hive is up 3 in INDUS (with Wealth, 2 without) on the Spartans and is probably saving 0-2 prod. per base in support. The Spartan bases are likely to have more workers than their Hive counterparts due to demo/planned/creche pop booms. The Hive gets 60 free prod. at each new base (50 for Perimeter Defense, 10 for support bonus). The net result favors the Hive, but lessens as the game progresses. The advantage is strongly with the Hive at the beginning (before pop booms) but is rapidly mitigated once the Spartans get the pop booms. Energy: The Hive can only get +2 ECON with FM/W + Golden Age. The Spartans can counter with D/FM/K and no Golden Age. The Spartans will be up 3 in EFFIC, and up 2 in RES, and they won't have the parasitic PSYCH energy deficit required by the Golden Age. The Spartans should have about twice the research and nearly twice the income of the Hive. Also, the Spartans are more likely to get the Governor's commerce bonus due to pop booms. |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 11:28 AM ET
OK, I don't feel like writing any more on this so I'll just say that I still don't like the spartans. I agree that on paper things don't look the same. And I agree that in MP the Spartans make a great faction, as any conqueror does-- the only reason builders survive on single player is that the AI controlled conquerors don't know how to invade quickly. About the Spartans elite units-- big deal. The only advantage I see for them in morale is early if they can manage to get the command nexus. Other than that I can build command centers and bioenhancement centers and with high morale special ability will have elite troops as well. So when I say the Spartans are "not worth playing", I mean this of course for myself and my strategies, not as some universal truth. I like to play a builder because I enjoy the game more when I don't conquer everyone by 2250 or so. So Zorak Zoran, please don't get all upset on me-- my points are valid even if the Spartans still are a good faction (especially in MP). I certainly don't think I'd have to win 10 games on transcend to be able to speak about a faction, because I've used them all now and I know a heck of a lot about them. I have nothing more to say. |
| Zorak Zoran |
posted 05-12-99 11:37 AM ET
I sure do! I'm not down on you or anything, I was just challenging your bold statement that the Spartans were basically worthless. I know that the elite units are not a big deal, it was just a footnote. However, using those two SPs is one hell of a lot cheaper than a dozen Command Centers, Bio Enhancement facilities, and Training for each unit. I believe you do need to play a faction thoroughly to speak authoritatively about them. I wouldn't be on this forum spouting about the Spartans if I had just read the manual. My point is that basing your opinions on calculations like "with this +2 and this tech you can do this" or "this faction doesn't compare to this one because of this other thing" is silly. SMAC isn't a horse race, it is a street fight. Consideration of each faction must be made in reference to constant and often bloody interaction with other factions. |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 11:37 AM ET
Bingmann-- Cease this! I'm strictly speaking of conqueror vs builder tactics. As a conqueror, nobody beats Yang, because you don't have to get to the late game and worry about his weaknesses (no easy +2 economy, etc). Yang grows fast, produces fast, and should be able to kill anyone with conqueror tactics, especially since he should get the command nexus first. If I'm going to play a builder faction, I'll play the PKs. Give me FME with them and I'll demolish any computer opponent, though I'd have to be a lot more cautious in MP. I think Morgan is a better builder also, especially since you can choose wealth and green and still have +2 economy along with a total of +4 efficiency with demo also. Only problem with him is that you can't pop boom before the vats, but I modified his preference to wealth and he can no longer choose power. I think it is ridiculous to disallow any faction from being able to pop boom early, so I allowed Morgan this as well. But if I want to combine all of these tactics, I'll take the Gaians. Lots of independent mindworms early, and will have them throughout the game, so a good military faction. With Demo/Green/Knowledge they get +7 efficiency, so no one can build more bases and make the most of them (despite their lack of FME, they can still rake in tons of cash and research pts). And they can pop boom as well with Demo/Planned/creches. So many more great points about them, but I don't feel like going on and on forever. |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 11:40 AM ET
Zorak Zoran-- I guess I'm only down on them because I really want to have a desire to use them. I'm not saying that I can't make a killing with them (because I have done so a few times)-- just that I think playing as either a conqueror or builder I can do better with other factions. So when I notice this of a faction, I try to alter them in some way to give me a desire to play them. (which is why I allow Morgan to use Planned economics). |
| Zorak Zoran |
posted 05-12-99 11:51 AM ET
You said you didn't have any more to say...
They got cool black uniforms. What more do you need? |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 11:57 AM ET
Zorak-- Those superficial things are exactly what makes me want to use the Spartans. But I need reason, and you guys haven't yet provided me with a good one. Go start a new TI thread and convince me. You see, this is exactly why I started this thread-- I was truly hoping someone could come along and show me why the spartans are worth playing. So far, nobody has, but it may yet happen. I always have something more to say, but I'm sick of being on these forums. So I try to convince myself to just stop, but I can't. I need therapy. |
| Zorak Zoran |
posted 05-12-99 12:10 PM ET
I don't really have any interest in trying to pursuade someone to play my favorite faction. It's this whole "worth playing" thing that I don't understand. Why are any of the factions worth playing? Victory against the computer is inevitable, so why stress about how you go about doing it. Run Miriam as a builder... it's hard as hell. That is an example of the challenge game.
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| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 12:15 PM ET
Gee, thanks a lot. |
| Smeagol |
posted 05-12-99 12:18 PM ET
I'm not looking to challenge myself-- I have fun finding the best strategy I can think of for any given faction, and using it to win. I agree that against the computer victory is inevitable, but it can still be challenging sometimes and I'd rather use a faction that I use well. |
| Bingmann |
posted 05-12-99 12:38 PM ET
Smeagol - Hey I agree with you (sort of)! builders = PKs conquerors = TBs (you seem to say Hive for this) easy early game = Hive Everyone else is trash in comparison (on Transcend anyway). I think your changes to Morgan are on the mark. If it were possible, I think the Gaians should not be able to make Children's Creches. Pop booms and cranking out the babies seems contrary to Green dogma. With these changes, everyone but Gaians and Hive would be able to do easy, early pop booms. |
| Aviagion |
posted 05-12-99 01:21 PM ET
Of course Mindworms will eat even the most heavily armed soldier... or anything else that gets in its way for that matter. |
| Zorak Zoran |
posted 05-12-99 02:46 PM ET
You cannot play the Spartans well so they are not worth playing? You aren't looking to challenge yourself? ... Bizarre ... |
| seth5454 |
posted 05-12-99 03:59 PM ET
i dont get it the negative 1 industry never hurt me, i mean y not just use planned economics to make up for the -1 industry. seth5454 |
| Lirix |
posted 05-12-99 05:04 PM ET
Well, Smeagol has confounded me. Only YOU can give yourself a reason to play any faction. In your own words, you prefer to play builders. Spartans are conquerors. It would seem that as a natural course you will not find the Spartans worth playing. As for their builder aspect, they aren't too shoddy. The early police bonus allows you to ignore drones practically. Couple this with the ability to boost psych and then pop-boom by SE. The psych allows you to temporarily stray from policing your population. Spartans can GROW. Are Morgan or the PKs better? Possibly, the PK stand a better chance than Morgan. Their talents edge and less restrictive habs are a serious contender. The Spartans edge is morale. Worms are almost laughable early, and you can wage war with slightly behind tech! Though it's not totally rational, the AI also gives more weight to your threats simply because. The biggest Spartan advantage to me is the guaranteed start. Starting alone or next to the believers and the hive doesn't matter much. You are quite capable of securing some breathing room, and then shifting into high gear. Oh well, maybe you got something useful out of all that. Lirix |
| googlie |
posted 07-01-99 10:43 PM ET
reactivating |
| Beta1 |
posted 07-03-99 12:10 PM ET
Thanks for reactivating this one as I missed it first time round. Its always good to see two (or more) members of the forum hitting each other around the head about what seems (in hindsight)a rather riduculous situation. I think this episode just goes to show that the factions are well balanced because everyone appears to manage to win in different tactics with any faction. But anyway the Spartans are IMHO the best early game faction. The ability to start with speeders means you can explore rapidly and contact other factions. Then demand their tech/money/bases. The no prototype requirment means you can pump out those four impact rovers and kick everyone of your continent early on. Then just sit back and pop boom. |
| Penny Foh Yu Thot |
posted 07-07-99 09:48 PM ET
Yo Zorak Zorak, I am sorry but I entirely disagree with your position on this thread. The question is not if the Spartan are playable or not (of course they are!). Absolutely everybody could beat the computer even with the worst balance Faction (almost *g*) As for MP, if you are more experience in the game than your opponent you can beat him with any factions, since he wont be able to challenge your insights... But if you try going against a real opponent using the Hive or the Bitch and who's every bit as good as you then as the song said : Just my thow cents worth |
| Penny Foh Yu Thot |
posted 07-14-99 02:29 PM ET
Hmm I am about to do something bad for my reputation here, that is to switch allegiance! I must say that I overlooked the Spartans because I played in several MP games where they got crushed by Yang/Miriam... But recently, on a single player I saw the AI use an amazing strategy. The dudes in black are back! Just my 2 cents worth |
| metalhead |
posted 07-14-99 04:09 PM ET
I have to agree that the spartans overall are pretty worthless. But their advantage is, since they start out with the rovers, you can go and wipe out the other factions in the begging before they get built up. I use this strategy a lot in the game, and it usually works pretty good. But if you wanna play a long game, go with the University. |
| Krushala |
posted 07-14-99 05:53 PM ET
I was kicking ass as the spartans on transcend until the believer developed air power. Fungus or no fungus they always found my transports. If I could get my units on their continent I could easily take them. It's too far to build a land bridge. |
| korn469 |
posted 07-15-99 02:17 AM ET
i transcended with the spartans on Transcend/ironman standard map in 2244 no cheats...i don't think they are worthless. they are the only conquering faction that can research korn469 |
| Zoetrope |
posted 07-16-99 12:58 AM ET
Krushala: No continent is too far to build a land bridge. -------------------------------------------- korn469: Since your spartans transcended in 2244, perhaps you could recount how you did it? What was the key factor in getting the technologies soon enough? Constant trade plus bullying? (When I played the Believers, the other factions stopped researching!) |
| korn469 |
posted 07-16-99 03:16 AM ET
Zoetrope check out the fastest to transcend thread |
| Alkis |
posted 07-16-99 03:43 AM ET
When choosing a faction, it all depends on what your goal is. For a fast transcendence victory the Spartans are ideal. The plan is to get impact rovers and make some factions surrender (or even all the factions). Then you will have your trade, your technology coming from two sources (you and your pact brothers) and much less enemies. You can try this plan with any race, of course but you want: 1. A race that is not crippled in technology or economy or efficiency. Spartans have all these, plus increased morale and free prototypes. About the prototypes, they take forever at the start of the game and time is of the essence. Spartans also start with doctrine mobility, one tech less for impact rovers. They also start with a rover which can be upgraded to impact rover. So if a player uses all these advantages of the Spartans for a quick conquest (but not elimination) of the other factions, he will end up with so much energy from trade that he will research better than the UoP. For a conquest victory Spartans get impact rovers earlier than The Hive (not to mention Believers). For a succesfull conquest time (again) is very important. Three impact rovers on 2130 are maybe better than six on 2140. The idea is to do it quickly. It's not an accident that korn made his great score with the Spartans. So, what I want to say is that the Spartans are not only worthwhile but maybe one of the best two. (The other is the Univercity, there's no question about that) |
| Zorak Zoran |
posted 07-21-99 01:24 PM ET
Hey, I went away for a couple months to play Starcraft, but I'm glad to see my fellow Spartans have held the black banner high. I can't understand all these sycophants babbling about Yang and Miriam. Technology? Hello? Ever played Yang and get stuck on an island alone? You can produce land units and colony pods out the wazoo, but if you have no one to threaten... yer toast. |
| Natguy |
posted 07-21-99 02:12 PM ET
It seems like on all my games the Spartans get a huge continent all to themselves or with somebody like the Morganites on it and grow and grow and fill it all up so that I'm forced to fight a long, hard battle royale to finish them off. It happens every time! |
| Natguy |
posted 07-21-99 02:13 PM ET
Fortunately they don't defend their cities very well making it easy to take them! |
| Idunnoreally |
posted 07-21-99 08:33 PM ET
Spartan Lover here :-) I don't know about you guys, but you've definitely being playing the wrong game!!! Here's a game I played with The Spartans !!!!( in Transcend ) I have a whole continent to myself. Hive shares a continent with Believers and Gaians(they're both lost). Everything was going at a leisurely pace! I've never used the reserves! after exploring with my foil, I find that UoP is just in next island!!!:-) As for the builders? Only PK present a tiny problem. Nevertheless, I enjoy closing the channel on Lal! Morgan was as submissive as any AI can be. Let's say, he's still kissing my ass till now! hehehe SPARTANS RULE!!!! P.s. One note about winning Spartans, at least you must have conquered a faction to be equal in the run with the BUILDERS and Knowledge crazy UoP!!! Winning in Transcendence is easy(meaning just go all tech). But to conquer the factions late in the game with better weaponry is just the thing to savour in SMAC!!(e.g. defeating Yang with Particle Impactor is impossible) You guys have to really go CONQUER!! And make use of the Defense Pods!!!! |
| White_Cat |
posted 07-25-99 04:08 AM ET
One thing that was missed regarding the Spartans: they are the perfect faction for using Free Market. The extra mindworms you'll see and the -30% psi combat penalty are nicely offset by their extra morale, especially if you build the Command Nexus and/or Cyborg Factory. Their police bonus helps offset FM's penalty in that area, and if you run a police state you can even wage a war with that economy. |
| Alkis |
posted 07-25-99 10:33 AM ET
White_Cat, Thanks for realizing the power of Free market with the Spartans. The idea, however is not new. I posted about it for the first time some months ago. For some reason the idea never became popular. I also used free market without police state. With the Ascetic virtues you have a situation similar to a Republic in Civ2. You get a drone if more than one unit is away from base. It's easy to fight a war this way. |
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