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Author Topic:   Subs in MP

wtiger posted 05-11-99 02:00 AM ET
I gather from the forums here that subs a.k.a. deep pressure hull-equipped ships are useless in SP, due to the omnscient AI. But what about multiplayer? Laying in ambush, taking that all-important first strike, destroying half of your opponent's navy, and then scooting away while your opponent searches desperately for your subs, certainly appeals to the admiral in me. But doesn't that seem a bit unbalancing?
I've never played multiplayer, so I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject. Or have I overlooked anything?
Plato90s posted 05-11-99 10:18 AM ET
It's too easy to search for a sub. By the time Deep Pressure hulls become available, needlejets will already be in use. If you take out one of my ships, my air force will be out in force searching immediately.
The main way in which a deep pressure hull is useful if for sneaking in your cruiser probe teams and transports. Even then, you'd have to make sure to steer clear of fighter patrols.
GaryD posted 05-11-99 02:13 PM ET
That explains a lot. I paid a small fortune to turn my transport into a sub, to avoid it being spotted with all those heavy units in. And the sods came straight to it and took it out anyway. What a flaming waste !
wtiger posted 05-11-99 10:43 PM ET
I'm not talking about just one rogue sub; I'm talking about a whole navy of them. Needlejets are good, but they have limited range, which means that they are ineffective when far from home. Besides, I have AAA Subs, which can bloody your needlejets' noses, and also Sub Carriers ( Illogical, maybe, but this is the 25th century ) which can send your surviving needlejets crashing into the sea with its fleet of air-superiority needlejets.
Besides, isn't it a bit tedious to search every sea square for a sub (as if you could automate it)? What about the psychological aspects? It'll certainly be fun when I hit your carrier from 4 directions at once, or when I hit your sea base with a needlejet from the West, launched from a sub carrier sitting pretty in the East.
Just my thoughts....
--wtiger
"Tora! Tora! Tora!"
Plato90s posted 05-12-99 12:23 AM ET
Actually, that SubCarrier combo is a bug and ver3.0 was supposed to get rid of it.
And I'm not saying Submersible units don't have a place in the game. It's just not all that effective. A AAA-cruiser is just as dangerous as a sub-AAA cruiser after all, so why waste the effort. Just hiding doesn't do much when you reveal yourself in any attack.
What SMAC really needs is for sub units to be invisible even when attacking. You'd just see your unit under attack, but won't know which quadrant the attack was from. That'd make it harder to hunt down the sub.
wtiger posted 05-12-99 12:45 AM ET
Yes, but an AAA Sub can better survive any counterattack by your needlejets.
Suppose that my ten AAA Subs attack ten of your naval units (with intelligence from Radar Subs) and destroy them. Suppose that five survive in the counterattack (after taking out ten of your needlejets). IMHO, that's a very good exchange ratio. And, since the subs are hidden, they can better escape if they are damaged (especially if they have Maritime Control Centre).
It's the first strike that counts...
WyldKarde posted 05-17-99 07:51 PM ET
I for one bemoan the loss of the SubCarrier, for exactly the same reason they're so popular in the real world.
Stack 'em full of nukes, park 'em off the enemy coast, and let rip.
Ok, so a SubCarrier that can launch aircraft is a bit unrealistic, but something like a 'missile tubes' special ability for subs would go down a treat.
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Author	Topic: Subs in MP
wtiger	posted 05-11-99 02:00 AM ET I gather from the forums here that subs a.k.a. deep pressure hull-equipped ships are useless in SP, due to the omnscient AI. But what about multiplayer? Laying in ambush, taking that all-important first strike, destroying half of your opponent's navy, and then scooting away while your opponent searches desperately for your subs, certainly appeals to the admiral in me. But doesn't that seem a bit unbalancing? I've never played multiplayer, so I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject. Or have I overlooked anything?
Plato90s	posted 05-11-99 10:18 AM ET It's too easy to search for a sub. By the time Deep Pressure hulls become available, needlejets will already be in use. If you take out one of my ships, my air force will be out in force searching immediately. The main way in which a deep pressure hull is useful if for sneaking in your cruiser probe teams and transports. Even then, you'd have to make sure to steer clear of fighter patrols.
GaryD	posted 05-11-99 02:13 PM ET That explains a lot. I paid a small fortune to turn my transport into a sub, to avoid it being spotted with all those heavy units in. And the sods came straight to it and took it out anyway. What a flaming waste !
wtiger	posted 05-11-99 10:43 PM ET I'm not talking about just one rogue sub; I'm talking about a whole navy of them. Needlejets are good, but they have limited range, which means that they are ineffective when far from home. Besides, I have AAA Subs, which can bloody your needlejets' noses, and also Sub Carriers ( Illogical, maybe, but this is the 25th century ) which can send your surviving needlejets crashing into the sea with its fleet of air-superiority needlejets. Besides, isn't it a bit tedious to search every sea square for a sub (as if you could automate it)? What about the psychological aspects? It'll certainly be fun when I hit your carrier from 4 directions at once, or when I hit your sea base with a needlejet from the West, launched from a sub carrier sitting pretty in the East. Just my thoughts.... --wtiger "Tora! Tora! Tora!"
Plato90s	posted 05-12-99 12:23 AM ET Actually, that SubCarrier combo is a bug and ver3.0 was supposed to get rid of it. And I'm not saying Submersible units don't have a place in the game. It's just not all that effective. A AAA-cruiser is just as dangerous as a sub-AAA cruiser after all, so why waste the effort. Just hiding doesn't do much when you reveal yourself in any attack. What SMAC really needs is for sub units to be invisible even when attacking. You'd just see your unit under attack, but won't know which quadrant the attack was from. That'd make it harder to hunt down the sub.
wtiger	posted 05-12-99 12:45 AM ET Yes, but an AAA Sub can better survive any counterattack by your needlejets. Suppose that my ten AAA Subs attack ten of your naval units (with intelligence from Radar Subs) and destroy them. Suppose that five survive in the counterattack (after taking out ten of your needlejets). IMHO, that's a very good exchange ratio. And, since the subs are hidden, they can better escape if they are damaged (especially if they have Maritime Control Centre). It's the first strike that counts...
WyldKarde	posted 05-17-99 07:51 PM ET I for one bemoan the loss of the SubCarrier, for exactly the same reason they're so popular in the real world. Stack 'em full of nukes, park 'em off the enemy coast, and let rip. Ok, so a SubCarrier that can launch aircraft is a bit unrealistic, but something like a 'missile tubes' special ability for subs would go down a treat.